I don't really disagree with bringing in Amorim mid season was a dodgy call, but Ruud might've seen us relegated
Amorim: «We are maybe the worst team in Man United history»
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
Why? I haven't seen Leicester but I always felt they had a relegation squad well before RvN.
Let me rephrase, I've seen nothing from Ruud that makes me believe he'd have fared any better than Amorim. Neither when he was coaching us not the car crash that is this Leicester stint
The FA cup and Europa league are all that’s keeping me invested. I suspect the same is true of the players as well.
I don't think we did. Nottingham and Chelsea showed how open heart surgery goes. Liverpool after one bad season did a complicated bypass. We on the other hand do what would be the equivalent of laying on hands and praying.
While you can appreciate his candor the comment comes across as naive.
While he framed it with "We are probably the worst" that's predictably not how it's being reported and to many players it could come across as a manager throwing them under the bus to protect himself. And I can't imagine that'll do anything positive for the players confidence.
Some get off on the players being publicly criticised but rarely is it conducive to squad morale.
While he framed it with "We are probably the worst" that's predictably not how it's being reported and to many players it could come across as a manager throwing them under the bus to protect himself. And I can't imagine that'll do anything positive for the players confidence.
Some get off on the players being publicly criticised but rarely is it conducive to squad morale.
I would disagree. How many league games has Amorim won for us?
I doubt it. Ruud kept it simple. Had us a bit tighter and organised and stuck to the formation the squad was built to play.
I wouldn't judge him on Leicester. We'd have finished 6th-10th.
Spot on my friend.
He's supposed to be a 'manager' not one of the supporters. It's a ridiculous thing to say as manager of Manchester United when it is literally his responsibility to play the best XI he can. If he feels he has the worst players ever to play for the club, why not bench the lot and play the kids? No accountability on himself, no plan to bring cohesion, just a covering ass exercise with the supporters and board.
For all the flak (rightly or for no reason) Mikel gets, he has set the benchmark for turnarounds in trajectory for big clubs losing their way (along with Klopp but there's an argument his acquired Liverpool were already quite strong).
This interview stands out for me. 15th, 5 points above relegation at the end of the year. And he didn't hide or blame the players as soon as he could. Masterful management from a rookie, of the players, supporters, media and the board.
https://www.goal.com/en/news/my-che...s-for-arsenal-stars/80imkcecahnl1higq3vmybsxu
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hes not far off. Might be a little bit extreme, but as he said, it was to give them a headline
A strong message to the board and players though
A strong message to the board and players though
He did specify it was for the 'headline', though it seems a bit silly to give the press something like that as now it's everywhere and it creates new points of discussion about him vs the players (who is to blame) and United being shit in general.
Kind of wish he'd just said 'That was shit, nothing else to add. There's your headline.' or similar
To the Amorim outers i'll say this, how many embarrassing results did Ferguson have in his first four years in charge? How is the Brighton result even embarrassing, who are we these days that we can look down on the likes of Brighton, Brentford, Fulham? Amorim's brief is, or certainly should be, revolution, it's the only way we'll get back to where we once were, Liverpool got left behind in the 90s/00's because they thought every next season was gonna be the one and subsequently didn't find the solution until almost 30 years later. Time to accept our lot, get our heads down, stifle our outrage and pray this guy has the plan, because i truly believe if we sack this guy now, i won't see another EPL title in my lifetime. I'm a healthy 58 btw.
Look elsewhere? Jim doesn't look like he wants to spend any monmey this window and, frankly, our youth players aren't good enough to be promoted. What's he supposed to do?
Give up with the ETH love, we should have finished 15th last season looking at stats.
How manmy times did we beat City and Arsenal and draw with Liverpool under ETH?
If you have actually watched us in plenty of games we've created and missed chances, just as wee did under ETH.
I have no problem with this statement. To improve, the players have to acknowledge every aspect of their performance that is not up to scratch.
I think that is what Amorim is trying to convey.
I think that is what Amorim is trying to convey.
It‘s different, we created more under Ten Hag.
We are more careful under Amorim, which stunts our attack. And yet we still concede a lot.
At least that team tried, they just weren't good enough.
If these players had half of the heart of that team we'd be nowhere near as low as we are now.
It's disgraceful, frankly.
He can go talk to the board monday to friday before or after training, he also can drill this message to the players on the training ground and the
I never actually seen the post match presser.
When you're the manager of Manchester United it's a bit silly to give the press anything at any time. They're good enough at generating negative headlines about United on their own.
I don't see that at all. With Ruud in charge, he would have kept an easy 4-2-3-1, and players would essentially be told to just play their game. With only minor tactical guidance, this team was/is more than capable of surviving and more probably finishing mid-table. Amorim is adamant in his system and wants to weed out the players who will not survive in it - even at the expense of a very low league finish. It's admirable, but may backfire. I for one don't really care as long as we are not relegated (which sounds crazy to say), but if it's for the better long term - why not?
I would actually agree with keeping Ruud being a safer option, and then having Amorim come in the summer. It seems like it would have made more sense.
I wasn't alive in the 70s to see us relegated, but from watching us since the late 80s / 90s, I would have to agree with him.
There isn't one player in the team that you could confidently say, yeah, ok, we can build around you.
Front to back, we are terrible...
Keeper is a clown.
Defence make mistake after mistake. They seem ok when it's backs against the wall, but the moment they have to push up the field, they are exposed.
Midfield don't seem to have the stamina to play back to back game and the options on the bench in Casemiro and Eriksen are ready to be put out to pasture.
We have non goal scoring strikers and bar Amad, you cant see where a goal is coming from.
There isn't one player in the team that you could confidently say, yeah, ok, we can build around you.
Front to back, we are terrible...
Keeper is a clown.
Defence make mistake after mistake. They seem ok when it's backs against the wall, but the moment they have to push up the field, they are exposed.
Midfield don't seem to have the stamina to play back to back game and the options on the bench in Casemiro and Eriksen are ready to be put out to pasture.
We have non goal scoring strikers and bar Amad, you cant see where a goal is coming from.
Human psychology applies but players at this level are on a different wavelength of competitiveness than most of the world, which is why I wrote what I did. As the saying goes, some are just built different. Clearly some at the club can’t handle this level hence why most of us here want them gone.
So would have kept at 4-2-3-1 and then what? Been hovering around 13th, with is where i beleive we were when Ten Hag was sacked.
There is nothing to suggest that things would have been better unter Ruud. He won a few games against terrible teams (LCFC twice and some random Europa league team) and and got a draw v Chelsea.
No one has been able to make a clear argument to say why its is Amorims system that is the issue?
I agree some of the players dont fit, especially at wing back, but is that the reason for any of the 3 goals conceded yesterday?
Before even talking about players for the system, our current crop have barely had enough full training sessions. If the plan is to implement a solid system from top down, and more importantly unfeck our 10-year long feckery, then we’re left with no choice but to persist with a system and let the “rebuild” take time. Even in a different reality where we hired Klopp or Pep, it would be the same process—took them a few years to get their systems at full speed at clubs that were arguably less fecked than ours.
Rangnick, Ole and ETH came with a reputation of playing an exciting style of football only to revert to a counter attacking style because the players we've got weren't capable/willing to play any style of football that diverted from that. Everything collapsed the moment ETH and Ole dared trying to tweak that style of football. What United need is what SAF did back in the day ie go in, burn the whole squad to the ground and rebuild from new. The owners need to have deep pockets to tank that + any mistakes that would happen along the way. If they can't then they simply can't afford Manchester United.
As far as I'm concerned the ranking matters but not as much as the dynamic of the end of the seasons (like for instance the last 8-10 games).
I’d argue that competitiveness and resilience go hand in hand. Can’t have one without the other to make it at the top level. Even all of the greats have had many moments where they’ve felt bad and down on their luck whether in the sport or in personal life. Otherwise, I agree with you especially where we need to keep finding those types of players. I hope that Amorim’s comments further reveal those who will respond with something to prove and then go onto show it on the pitch. Those to me are fit to wear the shirt of a top club.
- Back line too high for the personnel we have at RCB/LCB when our attack does not press
- No attacking threat from WBs (and his choice to use a system where they are integral to the attack)
- Mainoo not a DM but being asked to play like one.
- An Attack with an average age of about 20 years old.
I have been banging on about WBs for a while on here but look at how Chelsea used them, look how high they are. Look at the profile/mobility of the 10's in particular as well. Bruno needs to move deeper now, he is better than anyone else if he keeps his head in possession and teams don't fear him as he has no pace, they can just restrict the ball into him and he's ineffective. He should be the heartbeat of this team but a bit further back where he can see everything and organise. Him and Ugarte should make a decent CM pair. Mainoo/Amad are great at receiving the ball in tight areas, turning, generally being hard to pin down and Mainoo is actually quite a good dribbler (Amad obviously is great). Mainoo's game isn't being Ugarte and breaking stuff up, he's creative if you can get him on the ball in more advanced areas. Commit to them at 10/AM, they are our future. Play Hojlund or Zirkzee depending on how direct you want to be.
----------------------------Onana-----------------------------
-------------- Maz -- De Ligt -- Martinez ------------
Dalot ------------------------------------------ Garnacho
---------------------- Bruno ---- Ugarte -------------------
-------------- Amad --------------- Mainoo --------------
--------------------------- Hojlund ----------------------------
Maz as RCB needs to be tried, good on the ball, good in tight spaces and faster then Maguire + quite tall. The setup now is not good enough. RWB is weak but Dalot is best option.
I'm not qualified to answer that as I didn't watch us week in and week out. But what others who watched us in the 70s when on paper we were at our lowest do say, is there was more excitement and this team is dire in entertainment and terrible.
I always interpreted it as Ole getting found out eventually compounded with the Ronaldo and Greenwood problems. With ETH, did he resort to a counterattacking style? Seemed like his downfall was persisting with whatever it was that consistently left space in the middle that was large enough to have its own zip code—but yes he certainly changed it up from his first season. Ironically we did a proper counterattacking style against City in the FA Cup Final and won it confidently.
I think this criticism is sound, and I’d also like to see something like this tried out.Last one he can't help, the rest he needs to try and solve. I think most fans simply want to see him try and solve them, even if our form limps along to the end of the season, we want to see proactiveness there and a confidence in what he believes in.
- Back line too high for the personnel we have at RCB/LCB when our attack does not press
- No attacking threat from WBs (and his choice to use a system where they are integral to the attack)
- Mainoo not a DM but being asked to play like one.
- An Attack with an average age of about 20 years old.
I have been banging on about WBs for a while on here but look at how Chelsea used them, look how high they are. Look at the profile/mobility of the 10's in particular as well. Bruno needs to move deeper now, he is better than anyone else if he keeps his head in possession and teams don't fear him as he has no pace, they can just restrict the ball into him and he's ineffective. He should be the heartbeat of this team but a bit further back where he can see everything and organise. Him and Ugarte should make a decent CM pair. Mainoo/Amad are great at receiving the ball in tight areas, turning, generally being hard to pin down and Mainoo is actually quite a good dribbler (Amad obviously is great). Mainoo's game isn't being Ugarte and breaking stuff up, he's creative if you can get him on the ball in more advanced areas. Commit to them at 10/AM, they are our future. Play Hojlund or Zirkzee depending on how direct you want to be.
----------------------------Onana-----------------------------
-------------- Maz -- De Ligt -- Martinez ------------
Dalot ------------------------------------------ Garnacho
---------------------- Bruno ---- Ugarte -------------------
-------------- Amad --------------- Mainoo --------------
--------------------------- Hojlund ----------------------------
Maz as RCB needs to be tried, good on the ball, good in tight spaces and faster then Maguire + quite tall. The setup now is not good enough. RWB is weak but Dalot is best option.
What I’ve been trying to say, but you elaborated better.
counter attack football has its own merits. It certainly can kill the big guys off ie those desperate for the 3 points. Unfortunately most teams are just happy to sit back and get a draw with Manchester United.
Agree on the wing backs. We don't have ideal fits, it would seem. But you have to trust Amorim in the sense that this is his system so fair to say he knows it better than anyone.
The profile he has in Dalot and Maz are far crys to what he had at Sporting in Arujo and Quenda. So what does that tell you? It imply that he thinks for now, Dalot and Maz are the best options he has. Personally, i think that is because he cant trust the 3 at the back because of the lack of recovery pace they have. Plus, he may think that on the balance having two full back there for now, is better than putting in a winger.
Lets face it, our defence are porous when they are lined up with 5 across the back. You can perhaps put some of our lack of attacking threat down to the wing backs, but is this the reason we ship so many goals? Look at the 3 goals yesterday - are any system related? Maz is in his right back slot twice and gets beaten.
I agree with you that the CBs need to be a little deeper when on the ball to start the attack. That allows the WBs to push up higher. Though when not on the ball, the CBs should be on the half way line - that is where the lack of recovery pace is an issue. We saw it yesterday - they are terrified when running back towards their own goal.
Mainoo isnt a DM, but he is playing along side one in Ugarte. Amorim had two DMs in Hjumland and Morita at Sporting. Mainoo should be able to get on the ball more look to link up play between defence and attack from that position and he just isnt doing that this season. Remember his debut V Everton when he was doing just that? Where is that Mainoo gone?
Attack - need we say more. Thought experiment here. Would Hojlund or Zirkzee be starting for any other PL team? Ipswich? No. LCFC? Think i would rather have Vardy. Palace? Mateta anyday. Even Southamptons forwards looked better.
Amorims teams rely heavily on a focal forward. We know what Gyökeres brings but even Paulinia before him was able to hold up play really well and bring the 10s into the game. Our options cant do that.
I have been banging on about WBs for a while on here but look at how Chelsea used them, look how high they are. Look at the profile/mobility of the 10's in particular as well. Bruno needs to move deeper now, he is better than anyone else if he keeps his head in possession and teams don't fear him as he has no pace, they can just restrict the ball into him and he's ineffective. He should be the heartbeat of this team but a bit further back where he can see everything and organise. Him and Ugarte should make a decent CM pair. Mainoo/Amad are great at receiving the ball in tight areas, turning, generally being hard to pin down and Mainoo is actually quite a good dribbler (Amad obviously is great). Mainoo's game isn't being Ugarte and breaking stuff up, he's creative if you can get him on the ball in more advanced areas. Commit to them at 10/AM, they are our future. Play Hojlund or Zirkzee depending on how direct you want to be.
----------------------------Onana-----------------------------
-------------- Maz -- De Ligt -- Martinez ------------
Dalot ------------------------------------------ Garnacho
---------------------- Bruno ---- Ugarte -------------------
-------------- Amad --------------- Mainoo --------------
--------------------------- Hojlund ----------------------------
Maz as RCB needs to be tried, good on the ball, good in tight spaces and faster then Maguire + quite tall. The setup now is not good enough. RWB is weak but Dalot is best option.
Agree on Chelsea, especially the wing backs. They had ideal players for the roles and Amorim doesnt now.
No disrespect, but whenever I see these linups on the Caf, it is a real turn off. With all the best will in the word, you could have these players lined up in any way but the way that individuals are performing now, I dont think it really matters.
As i said earlier, Amorim knows the system. If he thought Garnacho would be a net benefit at RWB, then he would have done it. Perhaps he doesnt trust Martinez to be not covered in that LCB slot. Or he feels that Garnacho will push too far forward and not give the CBs room to find the forward. There is a good explainer here why having the WBs too high causes issues in this system.
The 'Theatre of dreams' is becoming the 'Theatre of nightmares', for this squad of players. Their collective spirit is visible...that is, until a set-back occurs.
Yesterday there were three set-backs, all leading to the easiest of goals for the opposition;
1) 5 mins in, a long ball out of the Brighton defence, had Mazaroui woefully out of position and unable to catch Mitoma
2) A forty-yard run straight down the middle of the pitch (unchallenged) that led to the second goal
3) A goalkeeping clumsiness, leading to a third.
After the first, heads didn't go down, and there was gradual if laboured response to get on level terms. Somehow following half time, that initial response was left in the dressing room and we were lucky it stayed at 3.
As strange as it sounds, crossing the white line at OT is now seeming to be striking fear and trepidation into home team, rather than the opponent so that is becoming seriously unable to raise it's game after setbacks, on its home pitch.
What a dire situation!!!
Yesterday there were three set-backs, all leading to the easiest of goals for the opposition;
1) 5 mins in, a long ball out of the Brighton defence, had Mazaroui woefully out of position and unable to catch Mitoma
2) A forty-yard run straight down the middle of the pitch (unchallenged) that led to the second goal
3) A goalkeeping clumsiness, leading to a third.
After the first, heads didn't go down, and there was gradual if laboured response to get on level terms. Somehow following half time, that initial response was left in the dressing room and we were lucky it stayed at 3.
As strange as it sounds, crossing the white line at OT is now seeming to be striking fear and trepidation into home team, rather than the opponent so that is becoming seriously unable to raise it's game after setbacks, on its home pitch.
What a dire situation!!!
There will be a lot of pain in this formation as we just dont have the team for it and neither the funding. Will these players work in another formation? Not really as they are just not good enough.
The issues that resulted in United having Hojlund and Zirkzee as the United strike force can't be blamed solely on EtH. If only it was that easy!
Any United manager can ask for Kane and be given Hojlund...fast forward 18 months and nobody at the club should need an explanation as to why United can't score a goal, or blame the current manager of not turning a kid into a 25+ goal scoring machine.
Of course the options shouldn't have been more than Kane or some kid, but 12 months later the only option everyone at United could come up with was Zirkzee, and I fear that deal was only completed because he had a release clause.
United's recruitment has been poor, simply changing the manager doesn't fix that.
Any United manager can ask for Kane and be given Hojlund...fast forward 18 months and nobody at the club should need an explanation as to why United can't score a goal, or blame the current manager of not turning a kid into a 25+ goal scoring machine.
Of course the options shouldn't have been more than Kane or some kid, but 12 months later the only option everyone at United could come up with was Zirkzee, and I fear that deal was only completed because he had a release clause.
United's recruitment has been poor, simply changing the manager doesn't fix that.