Named in group stages best team by l'equipe.
Amadou Onana | Ornstein: Villa agree ~50m deal
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Ugarte isn't a bad player and will improve us compared to what we've had in the last 5 or 6 years in the midfield. I think a player of his profile is required, but like yourself, I feel we can to better than Ugarte. Ugarte isn't the quickest and his all action style will go down well with certain fans and he keeps things simple in possession. So if we as a club are going to target a player of this type of profile where the player's out of possession game is more pronounced than his in-possession game, then we should be targeting players with a elite level of pace and athleticism.
And contrary to what some have said in other threads, we need this type of player to play a controlled possession game, because we can't play a controlled possession game in the EPL if we also can't control the game out of possession. Ugarte isn't going to move the needle as far as receiving the ball with his back to goal, doesn't have anywhere close to elite physicality and athleticism and he would be a concern for me defending large spaces in a higher defensive line which all proactive teams implement in the EPL. There's a highlights vid going around of Ugarte playing for SCP against Tottenham and in the last 15 to 20 seconds of the vid, Tottenham's Son, comfortably beats him for pace after Ugarte has a one yard head start. These are only small details but over the course of the season, they make a difference. So if we want to target a player who is risk averse at passing the ball, isn't good with his back to goal at receiving the pass as a holding mid, then why don't we target elite level athleticism and pace.?
We have a lot of good young central midfielders coming through the ranks who are mostly all technical players. So it does make sense to target a more combative type of midfielder to compliment the likes of Mainoo, Gore, Fitzgerald, Baumann who are all technically gifted players and can operate in deeper areas but would require a bit more defensive solidity next to them. I'm not saying all these players will make it, but I feel the plan will be to push one or two into the first team over the next year or two.
As far as height is concerned I don't believe aerial ability at CB is as important in the league as it once was. The game is more technical on the ball throughout the league and the requirements off the ball center around winning the ground duels rather than winning aerial duels. Because if the your aim as a team is to play higher up the pitch in a higher defensive line, then how we progress the ball technically in-possession backed up by controlling or containing space in 1v1s is more important than winning aerial duels. Aerial duels becomes important if you're struggling to get out of your own half in the present day EPL. But if we target players with a combination of pace, power and technical quality, then our problem won't be the aerial ball because keeping the ball and progressing the ball at a high level along with defending well on the front foot high up the pitch will result in us having far more control of the game. So for me, if it's a choice between a strong aerial CB who isn't very good on the ball or a CB who isn't very good aerially but is good on the ball and quick off the ground, then the second option has to take precedence. Because if we target players by prioritising the aerial game over ball playing ability and even pace and athleticism, then we'll be getting stuck in out own half far longer than is necessary.
I think Palhinha would be a good signing for us and would be a better player to have next to the kids we have coming through in midfield. Palhinha will keep it simple and stay disciplined in midfield and you can have moving parts interchanging next to him in the form of Kobbie Mainoo and the fullback inverting. But me personally I'd take a chance on the Feyenoord player Mats Wieffer who is younger at 24 years of age and is of a similar stature but is showing potential to be better on the ball.
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I mentioned him a few years ago when he was at St Ettiene. And the only reason I mentioned him again recently was due to someone else bringing him up again, hence I gave my opinion on the player. He's only 20 years old and I agree it's not ideal to thrust huge responsibility on a very young player when you already have a very young midfielder in Kobbie Mainoo in the team. But as far as Lucas Gourna-Douath is concerned, it's more so about what he could become in the coming years as far as being that combative type of midfielder with potentially elite level physicality and athleticism.
There's a place for different types of midfielders in any midfield composition whether that be to exert control in possession or even go direct with the press and counter press from the front.
There's another young kid at Salzburg who plays CB called Samson baidoo, he's showing potential to be a aerially dominant player with the ability to pass with both feet and has the ability to develop onto a very well rounded dominant CB. He's another player who maybe could be bought and sent on loan to OGC Nice.
I literally only heard about him from the post above in this thread.
United’s scouting is as bad as me at identifying players that nobody has heard of, we always go for the obvious.
Just thought it was pertinent. We could well be after Onana but we’ve been linked with him for over a year so it wouldn’t be surprising.
I see, thank you. I am getting a bit concerned about the Ugarte signing, to be honest. I would find it weird if he was our 1st choice midfield target.
I know about Wieffer but haven't really seen any links to us, unfortunately.
Why are you concerned about signing him?
Probably because people don’t seem think much of his ability on the ball
Because it seems like he has way too many deficiencies in his game to be a 1st choice target for us. Looks more like one of many backup plans for an actual 1st choice player.
This is an excellent post. I disagree about Palhinha, because we would need to replace him in a year or two. As to Wieffer, he's more of a play maker isn't he? I'd be all for that but I don't think he's athletic enough to help us when we lose the ball. If we want an Eredivisie midfielder, I'd want Veerman, but obviously not holding in a pivot.
He's actually surprising very athletic and Brighton seem to be trying to sign him according to reports emanating from Rotterdam.
I have to say, like you, I too am concerned about us targeting Ugarte as our high profile defensive signing. Other than maybe being less erratic at short passing game, does he bring much more to the table than Fred did? And Fred was found wanting here. Perhaps the goal is to get two defensive midfielders, especially if we're letting Amrabat and Casemiro go.
I am curious about your take above on the importance of areial cover. The way I see it, having sufficient coverage is an unspoken prerequisite to prevent leaving yourself with a glaring weakness that the opposition can target. Sure you can have players that win a high percentage of ground duels in open play. The problem is, the more areial challenges you lose, the more the opposition odds of turning their chances eventually into something accumulates.
The other more obvious reason is set pieces.
I believe at least 2 of your CBs and DM need to be aerially dominant. You see this with Arsenal, Liverpool and City. We already have Martinez as a starting CB. This means the DM needs to have this quality for me and is why I would personally target either Onana or Paulinha.
Brighton were happy playing Gross and Gilmore in a double pivot. Maybe we're trying to keep the ball more going forward, but we need someone who can stop counters.
Who should be that first choice then?
This guy seems too Yaya Toure like to me back when he used to play CDM. His positioning seems a bit off, trying to make recovering tackles than being in the position already to block an attack central channel by himself.
I think Fofana from Monaco would be a cheaper and even safer bet if we want someone that can hold his own CDM position.
I reckon its the same with Ugarte, i like him for his age but i doubt he can play as the single pivot for a team but maybe he can improve.
I reckon our links to Ugarte is no coincidence came after our links to Edson Alvarez & i reckon it was to get the price down.
He is the most similair player to Casemiro & Rice currently in the market - because he is the type of player to read the game and already be in the best defensive position before the attack is made and can emulate the way Rice & Casemiro play almost like a central wall in front of the CB's. I don't thinks its a coincidence that West Ham went for him after selling Rice & that we would be going for him after missing out on Rice.
Other than that, the only option I've scouted & liked is Adam Wharton who plays almost like Carrick did. Archie Gray looks great but he doesn't seems to have that ability to play a CDM role completely by himself as he seems very technical almost like a wilshere (would be great in midfield alongside Mainoo though if they had defensive support).
Sorry to put this all in one thread as i can only make 3 posts.
1. Edson Alvarez
2. Ugarte
3. Fofana
4. Wharton
5. Onana
Is probably my order of who i expect & likely to come.
I'd probably like Tchouameni the most considering his age but i don't know how loved up he is at Real Madrid and if they would be willing to listen to offers or unsellable or whether he would want to join us either.
I think Fofana from Monaco would be a cheaper and even safer bet if we want someone that can hold his own CDM position.
I reckon its the same with Ugarte, i like him for his age but i doubt he can play as the single pivot for a team but maybe he can improve.
I reckon our links to Ugarte is no coincidence came after our links to Edson Alvarez & i reckon it was to get the price down.
He is the most similair player to Casemiro & Rice currently in the market - because he is the type of player to read the game and already be in the best defensive position before the attack is made and can emulate the way Rice & Casemiro play almost like a central wall in front of the CB's. I don't thinks its a coincidence that West Ham went for him after selling Rice & that we would be going for him after missing out on Rice.
Other than that, the only option I've scouted & liked is Adam Wharton who plays almost like Carrick did. Archie Gray looks great but he doesn't seems to have that ability to play a CDM role completely by himself as he seems very technical almost like a wilshere (would be great in midfield alongside Mainoo though if they had defensive support).
Sorry to put this all in one thread as i can only make 3 posts.
1. Edson Alvarez
2. Ugarte
3. Fofana
4. Wharton
5. Onana
Is probably my order of who i expect & likely to come.
I'd probably like Tchouameni the most considering his age but i don't know how loved up he is at Real Madrid and if they would be willing to listen to offers or unsellable or whether he would want to join us either.
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Probably Onana. I've also mentioned that I'd like to see us at least attempt to sign Palhinha.
I agree with what you're saying and you're not wrong. But my thought process has to adapt to the moves the club makes in the transfer window. But if it was up to me, then the likes of Saliba and Konate along with Rodri, Guimaraes and Tchouameni etc would all be at the club. I was early on all those players and these are the type of players that move the needle both from a technical perspective and also from a physical and athletic level where winning duels at a high level is second nature to them.
Ugarte is a similar profile of player to Fred with a little bit more composure and some ability to dribble whilst being more aggressive in actions where he loves to fly into tackles chasing the ball. But is Ugarte someone that will cover ground at a high level? No, he doesn't have the legs to eat up ground quickly and hence I can't understand why we don't target someone who potentially has those attributes at a potentially elite level. I'm not sure why that is seemingly so difficult to understand for the club and as much as I think Ugarte would be a good player for the team as a option to have, I think we need someone else to come in to act as the bigger Dog in midfield. If we're looking for a Robson or Ince, then at least show some intent towards bringing in a player who will dominate the duels. And Ugarte doesn't even move the needle as far as aerial ability is concerned, which again is a small detail that shouldn't be missed, which is a point I will touch on below.
The aerial ability of a DM is important and should be factored into the thought process when developing the team imo. Opposition who look to play a direct game will target the double midfield pivot that is aeriallly weak and it doesn't matter how strong the CBs are aerially because all it'll take is the big CF to drop deeper into the space occupied by the two deeper midfielders, the wide forwards will come inside and pin the CBs and hence have them occupied and our aerial vulnerability in midfield will then be isolated.
So if we use Everton as a example, Calvert Lewin drops deeper and their wide forwards come in-field occupying our CBs hence pinning them back with the Everton fullbacks advancing forward to occupy our fullbacks. You then also send someone like Onana forward alongside Calvert Lewin and the long ball becomes a weapon and a out ball for the team via going direct. Our own high press is useless in that scenario because we'll be pressing a team that will have a out ball by going direct to Onana and DCL who imo will comfortably win the aerial duel against Mainoo and Ugarte who will be completely miss matched in comparison to the players they will be duelling with. It's a small detail that will cost us points over the course of the season and make our high pressing less effective. Arsenal and City are strong in that regard and Liverpool are one midfield signing away from having a complete unit as far as dealing with the aerial threat hence these teams are strong at both the aerial and ground duels and teams find it very difficult to get out of their own half against them. Improving the fundamental concepts of team development isn't difficult but the details are something we've neglected over the years which has been costly and given our rivals a big advantage who imo are recruiting in a very simplistic way by covering all bases and all eventualities in a game state.
I've been saying for a while now that two CBs and two midfielders who occupy deeper midfield positions need to be targeted and those players will make a massive difference to the way we play. I can understand why certain fans want the more technical player in every position because being aesthetically pleasing to watch the team is what alot of fans want, including myself. But the key here is to be combine the aesthetic elements with effectiveness and hence we have to look at the details and not just the fundamentals of team building.
The CAF seem to be praising Ugarte and looking down on Onana, which is odd. Teams like Arsenal, Bayern and Barca too, even though they can't afford him, are looking at him for the 6 role. Yet, we don't think he will be an upgrade to our defensive midfield. The guy is 22, has EPL experience, is decent technically, offers height, elite athleticism and dueling skills and has speed and is probably gettable for maybe 5m more than Ugarte. Ugarte is not bad a no 2 or 3 option if we can't get Onana but doesn't offer the team as much upside as him.
It does seem weird that we are not even trying for him. He is settled in the area, has PL experience and I'm pretty sure he'd love to come.
Makes more sense than Ugarte. But we rarely do things that make sense in the transfer market.
Were not even linked with him.
Were not even linked with him.
I don’t get what people are seeing in Onana that I’m not; his stats are awful and he’s been quoted at a price of 50-60m..
You’re not ‘Prem proven’ in a side that’s flirted with relegation since you’ve been there, during which you’ve spent half the time on the bench.
You’re not ‘Prem proven’ in a side that’s flirted with relegation since you’ve been there, during which you’ve spent half the time on the bench.
To me this is a non starter due to price. He’s not been good to the level that you’d have to break the bank for him.
I wouldn’t spend more than £40m on him. He’s a premier league player which we’ve all seen, he didn’t have a season to the level where you think, okay this is a guy way too good for his current level and is ready to be a difference maker at a top club. Players like Rice and Grealish did this.
The most interesting thing about Onana are his physical qualities and build. Yes he can play some pretty decent passes too but he’s not a player that would get anywhere the same attention if he was 5’10. The issue is even with those physical gifts he can be passive at times and not impose himself enough. The fact that he hasn’t consistently been one of Everton’s best players is a red flag for me because their squad really isn’t that good.
He’s a good player but not a must sign by any means.
I wouldn’t spend more than £40m on him. He’s a premier league player which we’ve all seen, he didn’t have a season to the level where you think, okay this is a guy way too good for his current level and is ready to be a difference maker at a top club. Players like Rice and Grealish did this.
The most interesting thing about Onana are his physical qualities and build. Yes he can play some pretty decent passes too but he’s not a player that would get anywhere the same attention if he was 5’10. The issue is even with those physical gifts he can be passive at times and not impose himself enough. The fact that he hasn’t consistently been one of Everton’s best players is a red flag for me because their squad really isn’t that good.
He’s a good player but not a must sign by any means.
I don’t disagree but we do have to buy someone for the position and I think he gets a bit of a harsh treatment.
If you look at his stats from the euros, he’s already showed there with Belgium that he’s capable of higher passing volumes and possession stats in a better side.
He’s clearly not the most adventurous player but I don’t think you need that when we’re pairing him with Bruno and Mainoo. I’d rather have a player who keeps it simple, doesn’t make mistakes and who’s defensive capabilities allow our more creative midfielders to shine.
He's arguably been Belgium's best player in the tournament and again today was rated highest amongst all their players.
I assume those who don't rate him don't even watch and just go off of twitter sentiment or Everton fans that hate him.
Guy is so clearly a freakish ball winner. Other stuff has to come along in his game but good lord the potential is there
Sold on him after these Euros, he's certainly ready for the next step after Everton.
Has 3 more years on the contract so I think it'll be hard for anyone to get him on the cheap this summer. They wanted 70m for Branthwaite and his one good season. Can't imagine what they'll demand for this guy after the Euros he's been having.
Who really needs him apart from us? Arsenal got Rice, RM and City are stacked, Barca can't spend, Bayern going after Palinha. Maybe Pool? They don't really spend silly money on these signings.
Could you play Ugarte and Onana in the same side, though?
Yes
Arsenal will want him to partner Rice. But they also want a striker and thatll be big money too.
I don't see it right now .. Pep convinced everyone that the deeper of the two mids should be great at receiving the ball and turning under pressure and playing it forward. They got guys like Partey and Jorginho playing at #6 as a result and Rice as a box to box.
Onana + Rice doesn't seem like a natural pairing because neither will be ideal at #6.
Never even knew he was Belgian until the euros, assumed he was Cameroonian like our Onana.
What a combination that would be. A literal brick wall in the midfield
100%. Onana is bobbins
Yet the same people want Onana who’s use of the ball is shocking.
Not convinced. Watching the game today I just do not see good positioning or on ball ability. He is a very good ball winner though
He got caught on the ball by Kante a few times I noticed.
I don’t see it with this guy at all. Stars look good but doesn’t pass the eye test for me. Would take Ugarte over him.
He had an exceptional tournament. One of the best midfielders and was tasked with doing a lot of leg work for the team. I think he showed exactly why Everton fans rate him and think he would be better in a different side to us. We shackle him with the way we play.
Belgium were poor, Onana was decent
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