[Matt851]

Because there are other parameters we aren't aware of. Just consider what you said, if Antony who is as poor as we know, can't get a start in that game then the problem is with the other (non existent) options

Or perhaps the problem is with the judgement of the manager who thought Antony was good enough to start for us having managed him at ajax.

Ten hag is piss poor at utilising his squad. He tends to lean heavily on his favourites then throw others in when he is desperate without them having been given any prior game time to get get sharp. Then if they don't make the best of a difficult opportunity they xan be out in the cold again

 

[Matt851]

What are people afraid of should Amad take Anthony's minutes? That we will lose the goal threat from our RW? That he can't replicate Anthony's amazing chance creation and assists? Or that it will leave us open, conceding 20 shots per game?

I see no reason to write off a young player who has done well at youth level, and on loan in the Chamiponship, after three 10/15 min cameos. And I see no reason why we shouldn't allow him a couple of starts to prove himself.

It could be Antonys mythical ability to hold the width or retain possession

 

[Gordon Godot]

Yeah, I mean he played better than Rashford and Garnacho. Hit the bar, put in a shift defensively, which is needed with this set up. Obviously he’s five years older than Garnacho and the price tag will always mean that he’s up against it, but generally he wasn’t that bad.

Hit the bar early on, but after that he is actually a negative threat. He kills attacks and momentum, often loses ball but either way attacks break down. Shearer was spot on and kind, but flagged he has to do more than cut inside and square pass. Forest know they can leave one player on him and double up elsewhere. he cant beat a player, didnt deliver one cross. its pathetic and same every time. Get some perspective.

 

[Canucantona20]

Talk about overreaction. He needs a run of games before we can properly assess him.

 

[tomaldinho1]

It could be Antonys mythical ability to hold the width or retain possession

It's quite easy to prove both these stats so you come off very biased here. There are many rods for Antony's back but holding the width (look at his heat maps) and how often he is dispossessed are not two of them. Most dispossessed player in the wide attacker position is Kudus at 3+ times a game, the average is 1.46 times a game and Antony is at 1.05.

 

[Matt851]

It's quite easy to prove both these stats so you come off very biased here. There are many rods for Antony's back but holding the width (look at his heat maps) and how often he is dispossessed are not two of them. Most dispossessed player in the wide attacker position is Kudus at 3+ times a game, the average is 1.46 times a game and Antony is at 1.05.

That is really fantastic stuff but who cares? Holding the width is talked about as if it's an attribute when any human could stand on the touchline. Retaining possession might be more of a quality but he retains possession as a function of not really doing anything, it's much easier to have good possession stats if you just turn back and pass the ball to the fullback all the time.

 

[tomaldinho1]

That is really fantastic stuff but who cares? Holding the width is talked about as if it's an attribute when any human could stand on the touchline. Retaining possession might be more of a quality but he retains possession as a function of not really doing anything, it's much easier to have good possession stats if you just turn back and pass the ball to the fullback all the time.

So when you said:

mythical ability to hold the width or retain possession

You actually meant something completely different to what you wrote? Or, are you just trying to justify writing something a bit silly?

 

[flameinthesun]

Said this a few times but I don't think EtH has mismanaged any of the youngsters. If they are better than the options ahead of them or.have the potential to be they will get games.

 

[ROFLUTION]

Had they scored, we’d gone out. But yeah, not important.

 

[Ekeke]

It's quite easy to prove both these stats so you come off very biased here. There are many rods for Antony's back but holding the width (look at his heat maps) and how often he is dispossessed are not two of them. Most dispossessed player in the wide attacker position is Kudus at 3+ times a game, the average is 1.46 times a game and Antony is at 1.05.

So providing width it depends what you mean. Because he absolutely does pick the ball up on the right side of midfield. I think when people complain about him not providing proper width though its in the final third, where he rarely makes an overlapping run on the right side or attacks that space. He might occasionally look for a pass to put someone else into that space. But he himself rarely ventures into the final third on the right side. He gets somewhere near the box and then he finds a pass or comes inside to shoot. And yes its very predictable which makes it easier to defend but he still tends to have a shot or two a game. I think the issue this season is that we know he can smash a great shot in from the edge of the box but a lot of the efforts have been poor this season which makes his goals return unsurprising. And the shooting was the one thing that you could make a highlight real of and say thats why he was an expensive player. Because he can do that. Well now he cant do that and doesnt do a lot of anything else

 

[tomaldinho1]

So providing width it depends what you mean. Because he absolutely does pick the ball up on the right side of midfield. I think when people complain about him not providing proper width though its in the final third, where he rarely makes an overlapping run on the right side or attacks that space. He might occasionally look for a pass to put someone else into that space. But he himself rarely ventures into the final third on the right side. He gets somewhere near the box and then he finds a pass or comes inside to shoot. And yes its very predictable which makes it easier to defend but he still tends to have a shot or two a game. I think the issue this season is that we know he can smash a great shot in from the edge of the box but a lot of the efforts have been poor this season which makes his goals return unsurprising. And the shooting was the one thing that you could make a highlight real of and say thats why he was an expensive player. Because he can do that. Well now he cant do that and doesnt do a lot of anything else

Holding width is simply the winger staying wide for positional purposes. I have no qualms with people who want to critique Antony for any number of things, but it was odd as the two things the poster cited are some of the few things he generally does well. He is always available for a pass even in pressure situations which makes the fact he rarely loses the ball a little more important as well and (just to add what i think he's good at) he does track his runners/do the hard defensive yards as well as play nice little passes around the box. It's not been anywhere near enough but he has done that.

If the criticism is he's not a byline winger who will go outside and cross, it seems a weird criticism to have of a left footed RW who I assume has literally never done that before.

 

[Raven]

Had they scored, we’d gone out. But yeah, not important.

Incredibly pedantic to slate a young winger for not blocking a cross.

 

[Gordon Godot]

Incredibly pedantic to slate a young winger for not blocking a cross.

agree, its pathetic. There were so many misplaced passes by United players. Dont understand the mentality. He put in a shift to cover that forward and was unlucky not to block. A better question was why our £82m winger didnt get anywhere near the byline or put in a single cross.

 

[Lash]

What lowers the standards is allowing Rashford, Bruno, McTominay and Antony (not so much recently) stink out the place every week with zero repercussions.

I'm honestly speechless at the fact that you think giving a highly rated young player, coming off the back of a great season in the championship, a proper crack would lower standards.

It's not really what I'm saying is it? I'm saying he has to do it on merit. We didn't just give Mainoo or Garnacho minutes until they were good, they took it on themselves to get into the first team. Even Rashford all that time ago did the same. They have to do something in limited minutes they're given or standout in training.

I get your point though.

 

[Frank Grimes]

Anyone know how many rides he has in Cheltenham in a couple of weeks?

 

[Raven]

It's not really what I'm saying is it? I'm saying he has to do it on merit. We didn't just give Mainoo or Garnacho minutes until they were good, they took it on themselves to get into the first team. Even Rashford all that time ago did the same. They have to do something in limited minutes they're given or standout in training.

I get your point though.

He's not breaking through like they were. He already has a body of work at professional level. It's a bit more like when we signed Dan James really, only he wasn't coming off such a good season in the championship. Admittedly he scored in his first few games but was also given the opportunity to impress, unlike Amad who has barely been given a half of football in the 8 weeks he's been available

 

[Bondi77]

What are people afraid of should Amad take Anthony's minutes? That we will lose the goal threat from our RW? That he can't replicate Anthony's amazing chance creation and assists? Or that it will leave us open, conceding 20 shots per game?

I see no reason to write off a young player who has done well at youth level, and on loan in the Chamiponship, after three 10/15 min cameos. And I see no reason why we shouldn't allow him a couple of starts to prove himself.

The funny thing would be is if Amad was given starts or full half's of football like Sancho, Alejandro and Antony have been given and he looks to be a better option than Antony then what does Erik do with Antony?
I don't think Erik wants that problem and that is why he will always try and give him more time and hope he will improve.

 

[ROFLUTION]

Incredibly pedantic to slate a young winger for not blocking a cross.

Hello! Earth calling. We’re in a thread discussing a player’s performance. It was even a reply to someone claiming he played well defensively, so it was even a post to balance out that statement.

 

[Grande]

Amad didn’t use his chance well yesterday, unfortunately. He was bright in the Christmas cameo, quite ok against Luton, but this was a step backwards with the competition there is on the RW. Garnacho to me played a second under par game at LW, while his last outings on RW have been probably the best RW appearances this season. Antony, who was good enough in a game against lowly Newport and horrible on LW the week after(?), left an unspectacular yet solid appearance yesterday, defensively better than any of our options on RW have been, while retaining the ball well, and providing two or three good chances. Amad looked far below that level yesterday unfortunately. Worse in defense, general play and attack than three year(?) younger Forson has been.

I don’t hold it against Adam not impressing when he’s hardly played since last season. Not at all. He just doesn’t show that he should play ahead of the other alternatives just now, that’s all. I worry a bit that a player that is, admittedly slight and not the quickest on short nor long runs, that he has to show more mentality, technique, creativity than a defensively sound and tactically schooled player like Antony, or a wolf hungry and pro active die hard Garnacho, or a more physically promising Forson even. When he shows less than them even of his strengths, the way to nail down serious minutes is going to be long in this results driven business. He is my favorite potential for the RW at the club, but he’s not proving the doubterswrong yet.

 

[Teja]

That is really fantastic stuff but who cares? Holding the width is talked about as if it's an attribute when any human could stand on the touchline. Retaining possession might be more of a quality but he retains possession as a function of not really doing anything, it's much easier to have good possession stats if you just turn back and pass the ball to the fullback all the time.

He is pretty hard to dispossess when he receives the ball on the half way line and the press is on with the fullback pressuring him and the DM / the opposing winger running full tilt at him to press. Much rather him in that situation than guys like Rashford, Bruno or even Garnacho who turn the ball over quite a bit.

He can usually win a foul or lay it off to some player in more space resulting in the press being beaten (atleast temporarily).

But that's somewhat of a minor detail in the grand scheme of things. He offers absolutely nothing in attack and we really need an attacker to score / create goals. We can't carry a passenger to help during build up.

 

[Pickle85]

It's not really what I'm saying is it? I'm saying he has to do it on merit. We didn't just give Mainoo or Garnacho minutes until they were good, they took it on themselves to get into the first team. Even Rashford all that time ago did the same. They have to do something in limited minutes they're given or standout in training.

I get your point though.

Exactly! Not sure why this is proving such a controversial take.

 

[lex talionis]

Amad didn’t use his chance well yesterday, unfortunately. He was bright in the Christmas cameo, quite ok against Luton, but this was a step backwards with the competition there is on the RW. Garnacho to me played a second under par game at LW, while his last outings on RW have been probably the best RW appearances this season. Antony, who was good enough in a game against lowly Newport and horrible on LW the week after(?), left an unspectacular yet solid appearance yesterday, defensively better than any of our options on RW have been, while retaining the ball well, and providing two or three good chances. Amad looked far below that level yesterday unfortunately. Worse in defense, general play and attack than three year(?) younger Forson has been.

I don’t hold it against Adam not impressing when he’s hardly played since last season. Not at all. He just doesn’t show that he should play ahead of the other alternatives just now, that’s all. I worry a bit that a player that is, admittedly slight and not the quickest on short nor long runs, that he has to show more mentality, technique, creativity than a defensively sound and tactically schooled player like Antony, or a wolf hungry and pro active die hard Garnacho, or a more physically promising Forson even. When he shows less than them even of his strengths, the way to nail down serious minutes is going to be long in this results driven business. He is my favorite potential for the RW at the club, but he’s not proving the doubterswrong yet.

Let's examine this "chance". Amad was subbed on for Antony at the 73rd minute. We hadn't been playing well for a variety of reasons, but whatever the reasons were we were struggling to create scoring opportunities. 17 minutes isn't much time to get into the rhythm of the game and is a lot fewer than the 73 minutes Antony, who was subbed off with good reason, got. And by chance, truly as he had nothing to do with the play, we scored the match winner with Amad on the pitch.

When your only chances are being subbed on in the 85th or 73rd minute you're not getting real chances. Forson got a proper chance last week with a start against Fulham and it became clear after 45 minutes he wasn't up for the demands of a PL opponent. Amad didn't get such a chance against Forest. Antony did get such a chance and didn't do much with it. We all respect Antony's defensive tenacity but he just doesn't have much about him in attack, despite a very good first touch on the ball. As for Amad, unless he gets a start and allow to play at least 60 minutes we can't argue that he's been given a chance.

 

[Njord]

Exactly! Not sure why this is proving such a controversial take.

Do you think Chelsea were right in getting rid of Salah and de Bruyne when they didn't perform in the limited minutes they were given?

 

[Matt851]

Let's examine this "chance". Amad was subbed on for Antony at the 73rd minute. We hadn't been playing well for a variety of reasons, but whatever the reasons were we were struggling to create scoring opportunities. 17 minutes isn't much time to get into the rhythm of the game and is a lot fewer than the 73 minutes Antony, who was subbed off with good reason, got. And by chance, truly as he had nothing to do with the play, we scored the match winner with Amad on the pitch.

When your only chances are being subbed on in the 85th or 73rd minute you're not getting real chances. Forson got a proper chance last week with a start against Fulham and it became clear after 45 minutes he wasn't up for the demands of a PL opponent. Amad didn't get such a chance against Forest. Antony did get such a chance and didn't do much with it. We all respect Antony's defensive tenacity but he just doesn't have much about him in attack, despite a very good first touch on the ball. As for Amad, unless he gets a start and allow to play at least 60 minutes we can't argue that he's been given a chance.

Exactly, particularly considering amad has just returned from being out injured for a prolonged period

 

[Grande]

Let's examine this "chance". Amad was subbed on for Antony at the 73rd minute. We hadn't been playing well for a variety of reasons, but whatever the reasons were we were struggling to create scoring opportunities. 17 minutes isn't much time to get into the rhythm of the game and is a lot fewer than the 73 minutes Antony, who was subbed off with good reason, got. And by chance, truly as he had nothing to do with the play, we scored the match winner with Amad on the pitch.

When your only chances are being subbed on in the 85th or 73rd minute you're not getting real chances. Forson got a proper chance last week with a start against Fulham and it became clear after 45 minutes he wasn't up for the demands of a PL opponent. Amad didn't get such a chance against Forest. Antony did get such a chance and didn't do much with it. We all respect Antony's defensive tenacity but he just doesn't have much about him in attack, despite a very good first touch on the ball. As for Amad, unless he gets a start and allow to play at least 60 minutes we can't argue that he's been given a chance.

I hope you’re not trying to twist or spin facts saying Amad had 17 minutes and can’t be judged. He came on after 72 mins, the wistle went after 101 mins, thats almost 30 mins. That’s almost half the way to the 45 mins you say was enough to judge Forson on as not up for the demands of a PL opponent. Are you trying to give Amad a break you’re not giving Forson? I think you’re doing him a disservice in that case. He doesn’t need to get things twisted in his favor if he’s ready.

What I said was that he didn’t use his 29 mins well yesterday. Looking at the situations he was in, how he moved, what he did when around the ball, it was simply of a lower quality than what Antony did for 72 mins before, and also I’d say than the 45 pluss added time that Forson had last time around. I didn’t say it’s not understandable even, I just say that if he’s going to get the minutes Garnacho, Antony and Forson are given, he has to do even better than them in training first, obviously, and then even better than them with whatever minutes he gets in games. That’s how you earn playing time. No one is ‘owed’ a chance of playing 60 mins for Man Utd, or any other PL club for that matter. It must be earned, and as much as I’d love him to, he didn’t earn himself any more yesterday.

 

[Yagami]

He was my favourite United player to watch last season. Really miss watching him play. I've enjoyed the few cameos he's had this season. Some nice feints and turns under pressure that the rest of our squad fail to utilise when pressed.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Whilst I think the Van De Beek comparisons are harsh, I do understand why it's considered a risk for any manager in Ten Hag's precarious position to start giving Amad PL starts all of a sudden (yes, I know Forson wasn't exactly experienced either). Hopefully he bags a goal or assist off the bench soon. Sometimes it's just a case of right place right time.

 

[kouroux]

Gosh, other parameters, please do tell us. We know ETH has favourites, a number of Ajax fans flagged that. We have a terrible team structure as seen versus Fulham but ETH doesnt change that. So you are putting blind faith in ETH to make the right calls. Given he was desperate to sign Antony I have zero faith in him.

Other parameters as in what happens off the pitch.
Wtf are you on about ? Antony has been relegated to the fecking bench What else is ETH supposed to do if not give him a chance in a FA cup tie ? It took him way too long to get there but it's been a few weeks now that Antony is a bench warmer. You're acting hysterial as if Antony has been start

Or perhaps the problem is with the judgement of the manager who thought Antony was good enough to start for us having managed him at ajax.

Ten hag is piss poor at utilising his squad. He tends to lean heavily on his favourites then throw others in when he is desperate without them having been given any prior game time to get get sharp. Then if they don't make the best of a difficult opportunity they xan be out in the cold again

Perhaps but it can be argued he's finally understood that Antony isn't good enough and has turned him into a bench warmer. Before this FA Cup tie, when was the last time he gave him a start ? Y'all are overreactin on the basis of 1 FA Cup tie. What a bunch of weirdos.

ETH has cemented Garnacho because the kid earned his spot, just like Mainoo after him and if Amad is that good (on and off the pitch) then he'll get his chance.

It's not really what I'm saying is it? I'm saying he has to do it on merit. We didn't just give Mainoo or Garnacho minutes until they were good, they took it on themselves to get into the first team. Even Rashford all that time ago did the same. They have to do something in limited minutes they're given or standout in training.

I get your point though.

It's as simple as that. We have seen ETH give a chance to young players if they're good. There is no reason to think he wouldn't do the same with Amad under similar circumstances.

 

[Pickle85]

Do you think Chelsea were right in getting rid of Salah and de Bruyne when they didn't perform in the limited minutes they were given?

I honestly can't remember how kdb and Salah performed when they played for Chelsea (maybe someone like @duffer has more insight here) but I'd be willing to wager that they had more of an impact than Amad. Also, who's saying we should get rid of Amad? I'm perfectly fine with him sticking around and being given more of a chance to prove his worth, he just needs to earn starts.

 

[Gordon Godot]

I honestly can't remember how kdb and Salah performed when they played for Chelsea but I'd be willing to wager that they had more of an impact than Amad. Also, who's saying we should get rid of Amad? I'm perfectly fine with him sticking around and being given more of a chance to prove his worth, he just needs to earn starts.

What does 'earn starts' mean. Can you tell me how Antony has earned a single start this season, or Rashford most of the time? Why the double standards. Its not complicated. He has played regularly in a tough league and shown he can deliver. Gie him a couple of games and lets see.

 

[Pickle85]

What does 'earn starts' mean. Can you tell me how Antony has earned a single start this season, or Rashford most of the time? Why the double standards. Its not complicated. He has played regularly in a tough league and shown he can deliver. Gie him a couple of games and lets see.

Rashford has a body of work behind him that proves he's able to cut it. He's been really poor this season but asking why he starts and Amad doesn't is ludicrous. Antony has been poor but Antony being poor isn't a reason to start Amad, not when he's shown more than Amad has, he offers better ball retention, gets on the ball more and offers more defensively. Playing Amad for limited minutes, him showing nothing and then being rewarded with more minutes just makes absolutely no sense. M
I'm honestly not sure where your raging hard on for Amad comes from.

 

[Matt851]

Other parameters as in what happens off the pitch.
Wtf are you on about ? Antony has been relegated to the fecking bench What else is ETH supposed to do if not give him a chance in a FA cup tie ? It took him way too long to get there but it's been a few weeks now that Antony is a bench warmer. You're acting hysterial as if Antony has been start

Perhaps but it can be argued he's finally understood that Antony isn't good enough and has turned him into a bench warmer. Before this FA Cup tie, when was the last time he gave him a start ? Y'all are overreactin on the basis of 1 FA Cup tie. What a bunch of weirdos.

ETH has cemented Garnacho because the kid earned his spot, just like Mainoo after him and if Amad is that good (on and off the pitch) then he'll get his chance.


It's as simple as that. We have seen ETH give a chance to young players if they're good. There is no reason to think he wouldn't do the same with Amad under similar circumstances.

I simply don't trust ten hags judgement of whether players are good or not

It's great he has now worked out Antony might not be good but it would have been better if he could have done that based on his time at ajax

 

[Gordon Godot]

Rashford has a body of work behind him that proves he's able to cut it. He's been really poor this season but asking why he starts and Amad doesn't is ludicrous. Antony has been poor but Antony being poor isn't a reason to start Amad, not when he's shown more than Amad has, he offers better ball retention, gets on the ball more and offers more defensively. Playing Amad for limited minutes, him showing nothing and then being rewarded with more minutes just makes absolutely no sense. M
I'm honestly not sure where your raging hard on for Amad comes from.

Antony doesnt offer more, thats ludicrous. his cameo against Wolves was shocking, constantly lost the ball including leading to their break for the 3rd goal, but still get starts. Antony offers zero attacking threat, his inability to beat players and constantly passing backwards kills our threat and momentum. A good manager tries things, doesn't just go back to favourites. If ETH rates Amad so poorly he should have sold or loaned him instead of letting him rot on the bench or get scraps.

I dont have a hard on for Antony you prick, its a discussion you moron. I want players to be given a chance when the ones the manager is selecting are delivering so little. IF you are satisfied with their performances then move fool you.

 

[Pickle85]

Antony doesnt offer more, thats ludicrous. his cameo against Wolves was shocking, constantly lost the ball including leading to their break for the 3rd goal, but still get starts. Antony offers zero attacking threat, his inability to beat players and constantly passing backwards kills our threat and momentum. A good manager tries things, doesn't just go back to favourites. If ETH rates Amad so poorly he should have sold or loaned him instead of letting him rot on the bench or get scraps.

I dont have a hard on for Antony you prick, its a discussion you moron. I want players to be given a chance when the ones the manager is selecting are delivering so little. IF you are satisfied with their performances then move fool you.

'you prick' and 'you moron'? Nice. Really great way to conduct a discussion. Just for your info, direct insults are frowned on here. Let's leave it there - it seems you're getting a little heated. Amad not playing is a very strange hill to die on but you do you.

 

[Gordon Godot]

'you prick' and 'you moron'? Nice. Really great way to conduct a discussion. Just for your info, direct insults are frowned on here. Let's leave it there - it seems you're getting a little heated. Amad not playing is a very strange hill to die on but you do you.

Try and show a little respect in your posts then. Stop being a patronising little ****

 

[Gordon Godot]

'you prick' and 'you moron'? Nice. Really great way to conduct a discussion. Just for your info, direct insults are frowned on here. Let's leave it there - it seems you're getting a little heated. Amad not playing is a very strange hill to die on but you do you.

I am not dying on any hill you condescending idiot. You are really a piece of work, Its a discussion forum and I am sick to death of Antony playing and offering zero threat while ETH refuses to give a player we signed for a big fee and has shown promise a chance. That's it. Why don't you leave it.

 

[Pickle85]

Try and show a little respect in your posts then. Stop being a patronising little ****

Reporting this one. Sorry, thought I gave fair warning the last time re direct insults but you can't just blindly start hurling around personal insults. It's a terrible way to conduct a discussion.

 

[kouroux]

I simply don't trust ten hags judgement of whether players are good or not

It's great he has now worked out Antony might not be good but it would have been better if he could have done that based on his time at ajax

And what he's done regarding Garnacho and Mainoo does nothing ? Btw, I can't wait for ETH to leave the club but it doesn't mean he hasn't made 1or 2 good decisions regarding the players

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

So when you said:



You actually meant something completely different to what you wrote? Or, are you just trying to justify writing something a bit silly?

don’t confuse him with facts!

 

[Lash]

And what he's done regarding Garnacho and Mainoo does nothing ? Btw, I can't wait for ETH to leave the club but it doesn't mean he hasn't made 1or 2 good decisions regarding the players

I can understand the idea people may think his judgment is clouded by his persistence with Antony, but giving young players a chance if they deserve it has been the only real bright spot of this campaign.