[The Hilton]

Alright you're being ridiculous with that. Done with this conversation if you have your head in the sand. Head down blind pass for just picking out Zirkzee and knowing where he is

You picked a really misleading stat to make his passing game sound better, yet I'm the ridiculous one with my head in the sand?

I suppose picking up on that to bail out is easier than having to face the stats painting a much more damning picture of his performance.

 

[JakeC]

I think playing on the right forces him to pass more because the cut in and shoot option has less appeal for him. The end result is a better player.

Brilliant post

 

[The Hilton]

He regularly hits top speeds in excess of 35 km/h, most often our fastest player. His recorded highest top speed is 35,48; Vini Jr is recorded at 35,5. you wouldn’t call him extremely slow.

I agree he is not lightening fast. He’s no young Giggs, Ronaldo, Kanchelskis or Valencia, nor a Nani. However, his pace isn’t really that much of an issue. He’s about average paced for a PL winger, as stats would suggest. Suggesting he was faster when he broke through either suggests you think he’s a terrible trainer or that you think you lose pace from 18-20, which is absurd.

You lose pace for all sorts of reasons; putting on weight, getting injured, changing running style, etc. All of those, and plenty more, can occur between the ages of 18 and 20, so it isn't at all absurd. Let's try to debate this in good faith and leave the insults and attempted gotchas out of it.

As for top speeds, that isn't a very useful stat, but even so can you source the 35.48 km/h? The fastest I can find is 35.01 km/h from last season, which put him behind Antony and Dalot, among others, who I also wouldn't suggest are blessed with good pace.

 

[tomaldinho1]

So your examples of his good pace are one where he's clearly outpaced by the defender, and another where he isn't any faster but gets to a perfectly placed cross?

I think it's clear we have different definitions as to what constitutes "good" pace for a forward player. Mine is being quick enough to consistently beat his man (something he's objectively terrible at). Yours seems to be timing his runs well (which he does do regularly I agree) even if he's then caught up with.

Anyway we've gotten really into the weeds here and it isn't helping the thread, so let me try to go back to the point. It's factual that he has an extremely poor success rate for dribbles and take-ons. I'm sure you can accept this. A major reason for that is that he lacks the pace to get past opposition players. For a player with dribbling and taking on players as such a core facet of his game, I'd say not having the pace to do that at all well makes his pace poor.

No no no Mr Hilton, you don't get away with this quote so easily. It is so much quicker to just say 'yeah, fair, I was exaggerating, he obviously does not having 'poor' pace or acceleration' but no...see below if you forgot what you said:

pace and acceleration are really poor

There's no argument from my side re dribble success, he was topping the league from memory early season re losing the ball through unsuccessful take ons.

 

[JakeC]

I think Amorim really likes him, but is pushing him harder because he sees the potential.

If he knuckles down, he could be out best player. He has flair we haven't seen in years

 

[NicolaSacco]

I think Amorim really likes him, but is pushing him harder because he sees the potential.

If he knuckles down, he could be out best player. He has flair we haven't seen in years

I really don’t get the level of criticism he gets here. I’d struggle to think of a player, other than Bruno, who can impact a game more.

 

[The Hilton]

I'm harsher than Garnacho than most and was very open to selling him in January. I have absolutely no investment in being overly defensive about him. Your zoning in on something that you can't really know is weird and a stretch.

There are 3 images of his move in the goal. Looks to me like he can quite easily see what's happening in his periphery. Which I imagine helped him play the perfect pass to Zirkzee, literally ideal into his run.

The first two pictures are at the start of his run, and the one where he's playing the ball he's still staring at the ball.

I went through frame by frame from his run straight to playing the ball, his head is down the entire time.

This paints a more accurate picture as to what he can see, I've added images below.



As an aside thanks for the image deck, I had no idea it was so simple to put them up on imgur, I'll be able to use that in future.

 

[Grande]

I think Amorim really likes him, but is pushing him harder because he sees the potential.

If he knuckles down, he could be out best player. He has flair we haven't seen in years

He is one of the players who will constantly try to make things happen wether frustrated or not. That gives him a lot of leeway in my view. One ironic thing is that he used to be astonishingly clinical his first seasons, while this season he cannot hit a barndoor. It’s clearly more to do with confidence and calm than with technical talent. And yet doesn’t quit trying to make stuff happen. That will help him improve in the future I believe.

 

[bosnian_red]

You picked a really misleading stat to make his passing game sound better, yet I'm the ridiculous one with my head in the sand?

I suppose picking up on that to bail out is easier than having to face the stats painting a much more damning picture of his performance.

His total pass accuracy was 89%. What is misleading?

Damning picture? Arteta had 3 different left backs try to control him better, because they all failed. Guess Arteta missed that he was having a bad game and didn't need to do anything eh?

I seriously question if you've ever played football. You don't need to lift your head every 2 seconds. It's called awareness and knowing where your teammates are, seeing them early and knowing where they will be, etc. Peripheral vision, quick sudden glances. It's plain dumb to say he got lucky with his assist or something like that and gives off extreme "I have never played football in my life" energy.

Other stats from his performance that are actually meaningful:
- 20 carries in the match
- 8 progressive carries
- 2 carries into the final third
- 2 carries into the box
- 5 touches in their box

Team highs for the progressive carries and below.

 

[The Hilton]

No no no Mr Hilton, you don't get away with this quote so easily. It is so much quicker to just say 'yeah, fair, I was exaggerating, he obviously does not having 'poor' pace or acceleration' but no...see below if you forgot what you said:



There's no argument from my side re dribble success, he was topping the league from memory early season re losing the ball through unsuccessful take ons.

I really think his pace is poor for a forward in the modern game. This is especially true in the PL where pace and power are so essential. He's too slow off the mark to beat defenders, he's average at best in a straight sprint, and he's much slower when running with the ball. That adds up to poor pace to me.

I'm sure he'd do well in the Dutch league for example, Antony was similarly lacking in pace (despite clocking a higher top speed than Garnacho did in the stats I can find for last season), and it took him from a player who could beat men and make plenty of space for himself to a passenger as soon as he was found out.

 

[The Hilton]

His total pass accuracy was 89%. What is misleading?

Dancing picture? Arteta had 3 different left backs try to control him better, because they all failed. Guess Arteta missed that he was having a bad game and didn't need to do anything eh?

I seriously question if you've ever played football. You don't need to lift your head every 2 seconds. It's called awareness and knowing where your teammates are, seeing them early and knowing where they will be, etc. Peripheral vision, quick sudden glances. It's plain dumb to say he got lucky with his assist or something like that and gives off extreme "I have never played football in my life" energy.

It's misleading because his passing accuracy in the opponents half was much lower, and his accuracy in the final third was lower still. His ability to play safe passes in safe areas is irrelevant given we're discussing his ability as a forward.

I don't know what dancing picture means, but Arteta's subs don't change the fact that Garnacho didn't create anything, attempted 2 dribbles of which one was successful (which ended in an unthreatening shot from about 25 yards because he didn't get his head up to play Collyer in on the left). That 50% success rate is above his average I admit, but that's because his average has him as one of the worst players in the league. It's mind-boggling to me that everyone is so quick to dismiss just how bad he is at it, given it's a central facet of his game.

You talk about awareness, but it's something Garnacho clearly lacks, given how wasteful he is and how bad his decision making is generally. If he is aware of all the runs he ignores from teammates in favour of wild shots, then that's even worse.

 

[bosnian_red]

It's misleading because his passing accuracy in the opponents half was much lower, and his accuracy in the final third was lower still. His ability to play safe passes in safe areas is irrelevant given we're discussing his ability as a forward.

I don't know what dancing picture means, but Arteta's subs don't change the fact that Garnacho didn't create anything, attempted 2 dribbles of which one was successful (which ended in an unthreatening shot from about 25 yards because he didn't get his head up to play Collyer in on the left). That 50% success rate is above his average I admit, but that's because his average has him as one of the worst players in the league. It's mind-boggling to me that everyone is so quick to dismiss just how bad he is at it, given it's a central facet of his game.

You talk about awareness, but it's something Garnacho clearly lacks, given how wasteful he is and how bad his decision making is generally. If he is aware of all the runs he ignores from teammates in favour of wild shots, then that's even worse.

Typo, damning got corrected to dancing.

The stats you are posting really aren't that relevant to say if he had a good game or not. Yes he made a bad decision when he shot instead of playing in Collyer. Very much the exception to the rest of his game, but again, he's 20, so it's fine to accept decision making isn't perfect. A few days ago had an 04-05 United vs Arsenal game on TV and Ronaldo shot from about 40 yards out to spoil a 4 vs 3 counter when he had Rooney, Ruud and Giggs to pass it to. That stuff improves with every player with age.

On the left, I do agree he is limited as a prospect. He's not a great winger, is too predictable and loses the ball too often as he dribbles into dead ends.

Every time I've seen him on the right he's shown a much higher level though. He lifts his head up, has better natural tendencies for when to go wide or cut in, makes far better decisions, and he can be an elite dual threat. He has an elite trait of being able to generate a yard of space, which you seem to ignore. He's not a winger like Hazard who will just dribble past players through direct take one. He is excellent with his carrying and pushes opposition back, he has excellent movement and timing of his runs to always be in key areas. Qualities like those are far more important than "pace". He does have a range of finishing to him, though he's clearly lost confidence in it and has had some brutal luck with it. Again though, he's young, it'll improve and you hope it's just a down year rather than a long term trend. That's where you hope being in a more stable team with less pressure brings a calmer finish and decision making to him.

Stats like his ability to get shots off, his xG, his movement which leads to receiving progressive passes, his progressive carries (far more important than just take on success rate), bringing the ball into the box and just touches in the box... He scores incredibly highly in all of those among all of Europe, let alone taking his age into account. We are looking for effective players, not a bunch of Quaresmas who can dribble past some with fancy tricks but does feck all with it or does feck all with empty space. Garnacho has all the makings of a talent who becomes an incredibly productive attacker once he rounds out his already elite traits (which are statistically there for everyone to see). Writing him off at the age of 20 because he plays for Disaster FC with nobody capable of scoring goals is (and I'll repeat myself), absolute madness. The same goes for people writing off Mainoo. Elite talents who need proper developing. Punting them away because they aren't ready to carry a club without a striker and who is a mess at all levels at 19 or 20 is dumb and not what this club should be doing.

 

[JakeC]

It's misleading because his passing accuracy in the opponents half was much lower, and his accuracy in the final third was lower still. His ability to play safe passes in safe areas is irrelevant given we're discussing his ability as a forward.

has him as one of the worst players in the league. It'

It's almost as if you'd have more pressure when you're in the opponents half.

Do you think he's one of the worst players in the league?

 

[The Hilton]

Typo, damning got corrected to dancing.

The stats you are posting really aren't that relevant to say if he had a good game or not. Yes he made a bad decision when he shot instead of playing in Collyer. Very much the exception to the rest of his game, but again, he's 20, so it's fine to accept decision making isn't perfect. A few days ago had an 04-05 United vs Arsenal game on TV and Ronaldo shot from about 40 yards out to spoil a 4 vs 3 counter when he had Rooney, Ruud and Giggs to pass it to. That stuff improves with every player with age.

On the left, I do agree he is limited as a prospect. He's not a great winger, is too predictable and loses the ball too often as he dribbles into dead ends.

Every time I've seen him on the right he's shown a much higher level though. He lifts his head up, has better natural tendencies for when to go wide or cut in, makes far better decisions, and he can be an elite dual threat. He has an elite trait of being able to generate a yard of space, which you seem to ignore. He's not a winger like Hazard who will just dribble past players through direct take one. He is excellent with his carrying and pushes opposition back, he has excellent movement and timing of his runs to always be in key areas. Qualities like those are far more important than "pace". He does have a range of finishing to him, though he's clearly lost confidence in it and has had some brutal luck with it. Again though, he's young, it'll improve and you hope it's just a down year rather than a long term trend. That's where you hope being in a more stable team with less pressure brings a calmer finish and decision making to him.

Stats like his ability to get shots off, his xG, his movement which leads to receiving progressive passes, his progressive carries (far more important than just take on success rate), bringing the ball into the box and just touches in the box... He scores incredibly highly in all of those among all of Europe, let alone taking his age into account. We are looking for effective players, not a bunch of Quaresmas who can dribble past some with fancy tricks but does feck all with it or does feck all with empty space. Garnacho has all the makings of a talent who becomes an incredibly productive attacker once he rounds out his already elite traits (which are statistically there for everyone to see). Writing him off at the age of 20 because he plays for Disaster FC with nobody capable of scoring goals is (and I'll repeat myself), absolute madness. The same goes for people writing off Mainoo. Elite talents who need proper developing. Punting them away because they aren't ready to carry a club without a striker and who is a mess at all levels at 19 or 20 is dumb and not what this club should be doing.

Firstly, I appreciate the post, it's nice to have a real discussion.

I disagree with a lot of it though. If we want effective players, why are we championing a player who doesn't create much for others and wastes almost all of the opportunities others create for him.

I think we just fundamentally disagree on his potential. For example, for me his awful shooting and final ball is a fundamental part of his game, due to the fixation on the ball he needs in order to retain control of it. His elite ability to generate that yard of space relies on him having his head down, which is why he so rarely does anything with it.

Only time will tell which of us is right, but I can't see any elite potential there, for me his ceiling is as an impact substitute of varying effectiveness.

 

[JakeC]

Typo, damning got corrected to dancing.

The stats you are posting really aren't that relevant to say if he had a good game or not. Yes he made a bad decision when he shot instead of playing in Collyer. Very much the exception to the rest of his game, but again, he's 20, so it's fine to accept decision making isn't perfect. A few days ago had an 04-05 United vs Arsenal game on TV and Ronaldo shot from about 40 yards out to spoil a 4 vs 3 counter when he had Rooney, Ruud and Giggs to pass it to. That stuff improves with every player with age.

On the left, I do agree he is limited as a prospect. He's not a great winger, is too predictable and loses the ball too often as he dribbles into dead ends.

Every time I've seen him on the right he's shown a much higher level though. He lifts his head up, has better natural tendencies for when to go wide or cut in, makes far better decisions, and he can be an elite dual threat. He has an elite trait of being able to generate a yard of space, which you seem to ignore. He's not a winger like Hazard who will just dribble past players through direct take one. He is excellent with his carrying and pushes opposition back, he has excellent movement and timing of his runs to always be in key areas. Qualities like those are far more important than "pace". He does have a range of finishing to him, though he's clearly lost confidence in it and has had some brutal luck with it. Again though, he's young, it'll improve and you hope it's just a down year rather than a long term trend. That's where you hope being in a more stable team with less pressure brings a calmer finish and decision making to him.

Stats like his ability to get shots off, his xG, his movement which leads to receiving progressive passes, his progressive carries (far more important than just take on success rate), bringing the ball into the box and just touches in the box... He scores incredibly highly in all of those among all of Europe, let alone taking his age into account. We are looking for effective players, not a bunch of Quaresmas who can dribble past some with fancy tricks but does feck all with it or does feck all with empty space. Garnacho has all the makings of a talent who becomes an incredibly productive attacker once he rounds out his already elite traits (which are statistically there for everyone to see). Writing him off at the age of 20 because he plays for Disaster FC with nobody capable of scoring goals is (and I'll repeat myself), absolute madness. The same goes for people writing off Mainoo. Elite talents who need proper developing. Punting them away because they aren't ready to carry a club without a striker and who is a mess at all levels at 19 or 20 is dumb and not what this club should be doing.

Post of the year

 

[The Hilton]

It's almost as if you'd have more pressure when you're in the opponents half.

Do you think he's one of the worst players in the league?

Which is why I pointed out the stat was misleading when judging the attacking performance of a forward, and why his significantly worse pass completion in attacking areas was more instructive.

I think he's one of the worst players in the league when it comes to dribbling or taking on players, that's factual though. Do you disagree?

 

[bgoodall]

Great to see Amorim back him in the press. Hope he scores vs Real Sociedad.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I really think his pace is poor for a forward in the modern game. This is especially true in the PL where pace and power are so essential. He's too slow off the mark to beat defenders, he's average at best in a straight sprint, and he's much slower when running with the ball. That adds up to poor pace to me.

I'm sure he'd do well in the Dutch league for example, Antony was similarly lacking in pace (despite clocking a higher top speed than Garnacho did in the stats I can find for last season), and it took him from a player who could beat men and make plenty of space for himself to a passenger as soon as he was found out.

Ok but you get how strange a take that is with basically half his goals on that montage are coming from him using his pace/acceleration to get into goalscoring positions? Describing it as poor, is ridiculous.

Straight line top speed is near pointless in football - Hojlund, Lukaku, Haaland are all insanely fast over a long distance - what matters is your first few steps up to what10-20m (?) max and how quickly you can move with the ball. Garnacho has very good acceleration, average top line speed, very good dribble speed. The fact you reference Antony makes it odder you can't use him as a reference point, he would often be able to beat his man, his first burst of pace is quite good, but then the comically slow next metres would be his undoing. Garnacho is much faster than Antony.

 

[The Hilton]

Ok but you get how strange a take that is with basically half his goals on that montage are coming from him using his pace/acceleration to get into goalscoring positions? Describing it as poor, is ridiculous.

Straight line top speed is near pointless in football - Hojlund, Lukaku, Haaland are all insanely fast over a long distance - what matters is your first few steps up to what10-20m (?) max and how quickly you can move with the ball. Garnacho has very good acceleration, average top line speed, very good dribble speed. The fact you reference Antony makes it odder you can't use him as a reference point, he would often be able to beat his man, his first burst of pace is quite good, but then the comically slow next metres would be his undoing. Garnacho is much faster than Antony.

3 of the goals in the montage really involved his pace, and only one of them was a straight foot race against opposition.

Garnacho isn't much faster than Antony though, the latter clocked a higher top speed than the former. So if Antony is "comically slow", then that's a great demonstration that Garnacho's very good acceleration and dribbling speed exists only in the imagination.

 

[tomaldinho1]

3 of the goals in the montage really involved his pace, and only one of them was a straight foot race against opposition.

Garnacho isn't much faster than Antony though, the latter clocked a higher top speed than the former. So if Antony is "comically slow", then that's a great demonstration that Garnacho's very good acceleration and dribbling speed exists only in the imagination.

You have so far, three times ignored the fact Garnacho beats a defender for pace in one example (he arrives at the ball first) for the defender to then catch him when he checks back. You seem to think this shows a lack of pace. If you can't understand basic physics, that's not my issue.

The other is a back post cross where he's in a direct foot race with the defender. If he's not fast, he's not on the end of that.

You have also just ignored how irrelevant top speed is, as if dribbling is a 100 meter sprint. If you couldn't see simply by watching our games that Antony is slower than Garnacho both with and without the ball, I despair.

 

[Rossa]

You lose pace for all sorts of reasons; putting on weight, getting injured, changing running style, etc. All of those, and plenty more, can occur between the ages of 18 and 20, so it isn't at all absurd. Let's try to debate this in good faith and leave the insults and attempted gotchas out of it.

As for top speeds, that isn't a very useful stat, but even so can you source the 35.48 km/h? The fastest I can find is 35.01 km/h from last season, which put him behind Antony and Dalot, among others, who I also wouldn't suggest are blessed with good pace.

Here’s one from this season - our fastest player: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/c0kjykv4z78o

I agree that speed stats only show half the picture. However, he’s always up there.

One of your reasons was «growing up». I was not trying to insult you. But it made no sense. Normally, you hit your physical prime in your mid twenties with some variation. Garnacho has not sustained injuries that should rob him of pace. The other argument about putting on weight. Well, when you go from a skinny teenager to having more muscle you get faster, up to a certain point. Ask Ronaldo, Bale etc. valencia was built like a tank - fast as feck. Traore, Walker etc. I wouldn’t even say he had put on much muscle. Still quite skinny.

Dalot is actually very fast - always rumoured, also by Rashford, to be up there with Rash, Højlund as the fastest at the club. Garnacho is a notch below.

Either way, calling him slow is just factually slow as well as making no sense.

 

[The Hilton]

You have so far, three times ignored the fact Garnacho beats a defender for pace in one example (he arrives at the ball first) for the defender to then catch him when he checks back. You seem to think this shows a lack of pace. If you can't understand basic physics, that's not my issue.

The other is a back post cross where he's in a direct foot race with the defender. If he's not fast, he's not on the end of that.

You have also just ignored how irrelevant top speed is, as if dribbling is a 100 meter sprint. If you couldn't see simply by watching our games that Antony is slower than Garnacho both with and without the ball, I despair.

I reject your interpretation of both of those goals, you're trying to find pace where there isn't any.

Garnacho didn't beat the defender for pace in the 3rd example, he got the jump on him, and was caught up with before he checked back - he checked back because the defender outpaced him.

The other example he wasn't in a race with the defender, the defender had moved away from him to cover the central area of the box. Pace was immaterial for the goal.

Your final sentence is quite illuminating; you can justify anything "simply by watching", as we all see things that are coloured by our biases.

 

[Fobal]

At current stage there are many things that can be said about Garnacho, yet lacking pace it's not one of those (in fact at any stage, unless he is on crutches), let's just everyone move on from that.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I reject your interpretation of both of those goals, you're trying to find pace where there isn't any.

Garnacho didn't beat the defender for pace in the 3rd example, he got the jump on him, and was caught up with before he checked back - he checked back because the defender outpaced him.

The other example he wasn't in a race with the defender, the defender had moved away from him to cover the central area of the box. Pace was immaterial for the goal.

Your final sentence is quite illuminating; you can justify anything "simply by watching", as we all see things that are coloured by our biases.

So both of them highlight his 'poor pace and acceleration'?
By my bias, you mean that I think Antony - a player shipped out of the league by Amorim because of his lack of suitability for the PL - is slower than Garnacho, a player who despite being erratic as feck regularly beats people for pace. Sure. You've had a nightmare.

 

[Fobal]

It doesn't matter if he is faster or not than Antony, 35 km/h it's a very good pace, Garnacho has pace, come on you are running circles about sthg that the lad actually has.

 

[The Hilton]

Here’s one from this season - our fastest player: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/c0kjykv4z78o

I agree that speed stats only show half the picture. However, he’s always up there.

One of your reasons was «growing up». I was not trying to insult you. But it made no sense. Normally, you hit your physical prime in your mid twenties with some variation. Garnacho has not sustained injuries that should rob him of pace. The other argument about putting on weight. Well, when you go from a skinny teenager to having more muscle you get faster, up to a certain point. Ask Ronaldo, Bale etc. valencia was built like a tank - fast as feck. Traore, Walker etc. I wouldn’t even say he had put on much muscle. Still quite skinny.

Dalot is actually very fast - always rumoured, also by Rashford, to be up there with Rash, Højlund as the fastest at the club. Garnacho is a notch below.

Either way, calling him slow is just factually slow as well as making no sense.

That's interesting, that's the fastest he's been clocked all career. It still isn't a great stat, Antony is supposedly right up there again, and I'm sure we can agree his lack of pace was a bit part of his failings here. Dalot again seems lacking in pace, he's regularly caught by opposition players, but perhaps there's something more nuanced, like struggling to maintain a full sprint. If Garnacho was really among the fastest players around, he'd have a much higher dribbling success rate. Look at Adama Traore, who according to your article is slower than Garnacho (and barely faster than Antony), and is certainly more technically limited, yet he has an incredible dribbling success rate because he can outstrip almost everyone for pace.

For your second point, it's perfectly feasible to bulk up between 17 and 20, people are far from fully developed by then. On top of that, putting on muscle doesn't automatically make you faster, that's a wild generalisation. I agree that sprinters generally carry a lot of muscle, but not everyone who carries muscle is a sprinter. You can disagree, and we can discuss that like we are now, but to attack a fairly tame point that heavier can equal slower with insults came across very defensive.

 

[The Hilton]

So both of them highlight his 'poor pace and acceleration'?
By my bias, you mean that I think Antony - a player shipped out of the league by Amorim because of his lack of suitability for the PL - is slower than Garnacho, a player who despite being erratic as feck regularly beats people for pace. Sure. You've had a nightmare.

The first one does, as he's completely outpaced by the defender, who covers about 10 more yards in a 40 yard sprint. The second one doesn't highlight anything, he gets on the end of a cross, it's irrelevant.

As for the second sentence, I'm simply pointing out the fact that last season, Antony's top speed clocked was faster than Garnacho's. This season Garnacho is clocked faster, but with Antony very close behind. Given their very similar top speeds, by definition you have to go with them both being fast or not.

You're right about the nightmare though, trying to have a factual discussion using stats to inform opinions, with posters who's depth of analysis is "simply watching" and boils down to confirmation bias, is nightmarish.

 

[tomaldinho1]

The first one does, as he's completely outpaced by the defender, who covers about 10 more yards in a 40 yard sprint. The second one doesn't highlight anything, he gets on the end of a cross, it's irrelevant.

As for the second sentence, I'm simply pointing out the fact that last season, Antony's top speed clocked was faster than Garnacho's. This season Garnacho is clocked faster, but with Antony very close behind. Given their very similar top speeds, by definition you have to go with them both being fast or not.

You're right about the nightmare though, trying to have a factual discussion using stats to inform opinions, with posters who's depth of analysis is "simply watching" and boils down to confirmation bias, is nightmarish.

The lengths you have gone to in order to avoid just fronting up to making such a stupid statement are impressively stubborn.

Garnacho has poor pace and acceleration...I think we've found you a new tag line?

 

[The Hilton]

The lengths you have gone to in order to avoid just fronting up to making such a stupid statement are impressively stubborn.

Garnacho has poor pace and acceleration...I think we've found you a new tag line?

Lengths like.... quoting statistics.

I really don't think it's controversial at all. If Garnacho had good pace and acceleration he'd be able to beat other players regularly, but, once again, he's one of the worst players in the league at doing so.

I'm curious, if it isn't poor pace and acceleration, what do you think is the reason behind Garnacho being so bad at taking on players and dribbling in his time here?

 

[tomaldinho1]

Lengths like.... quoting statistics.

I really don't think it's controversial at all. If Garnacho had good pace and acceleration he'd be able to beat other players regularly, but, once again, he's one of the worst players in the league at doing so.

I'm curious, if it isn't poor pace and acceleration, what do you think is the reason behind Garnacho being so bad at taking on players and dribbling in his time here?

That he’s young and also quite predictable? Go look at the top dribblers in the PL, they’re not all just out and out rapid players.

What stat with any meaning have you posted? I’ve just seen you getting taught by other posters how you have misused stats and I’ve had to tell you now about 4 times how irrelevant top speed is. Like Google Messi top speed and then explain how he was so much better than faster players, it’s just a complete lack of basic football knowledge to think dribbling is solely about speed.

 

[The Hilton]

That he’s young and also quite predictable? Go look at the top dribblers in the PL, they’re not all just out and out rapid players.

What stat with any meaning have you posted? I’ve just seen you getting taught by other posters how you have misused stats and I’ve had to tell you now about 4 times how irrelevant top speed is. Like Google Messi top speed and then explain how he was so much better than faster players, it’s just a complete lack of basic football knowledge to think dribbling is solely about speed.

Being "young and quite predictable" isn't enough on it's own to explain being one of the worst dribblers in the league. There have been plenty of excellent dribblers who were predictable, but who couldn't be stopped even though defenders knew what they would do.

Look at someone like Adama Traore, he's technically even more limited than Garnacho, yet his dribbling success rate is scarily good, thanks to his pace. The example you gave, Messi, was still very quick, what made him so good was that he could run with the ball just as fast as without the ball (his fastest speed was measured when running with the ball). I'm not suggesting that dribbling is solely about speed, but it's silly to pretend it's a non-factor.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Being "young and quite predictable" isn't enough on it's own to explain being one of the worst dribblers in the league. There have been plenty of excellent dribblers who were predictable, but who couldn't be stopped even though defenders knew what they would do.

Look at someone like Adama Traore, he's technically even more limited than Garnacho, yet his dribbling success rate is scarily good, thanks to his pace. The example you gave, Messi, was still very quick, what made him so good was that he could run with the ball just as fast as without the ball (his fastest speed was measured when running with the ball). I'm not suggesting that dribbling is solely about speed, but it's silly to pretend it's a non-factor.

There are many factors in dribbling, if you have ‘poor’ pace/acceleration like Mata did, it limits you but you use different ways of beating someone. Traore is explosively quick yet not the best dribbler in the league.

Agreed re Messi ball speed, ironically that’s something Garnacho is very good at. Again this all comes back to how naive your comment is about him having poor pace and acceleration and nothing you’ve said since in any way proves it remotely true. It was a shocker.

Also that’s ridiculous, Messi is one of the best ever but no player in world football gets faster when dribbling then in a pure sprint. The best dribblers have less of a drop off between ball carrying and sprint speed, but none get faster.

 

[The Hilton]

There are many factors in dribbling, if you have ‘poor’ pace/acceleration like Mata did, it limits you but you use different ways of beating someone. Traore is explosively quick yet not the best dribbler in the league.

Agreed re Messi ball speed, ironically that’s something Garnacho is very good at. Again this all comes back to how naive your comment is about him having poor pace and acceleration and nothing you’ve said since in any way proves it remotely true. It was a shocker.

Also that’s ridiculous, Messi is one of the best ever but no player in world football gets faster when dribbling then in a pure sprint. The best dribblers have less of a drop off between ball carrying and sprint speed, but none get faster.

Mata wasn't a good dribbler, because he lacked the explosiveness or acceleration, just like Garnacho. The main difference being that Mata was aware of this and didn't repeatedly try to beat players despite not being good at it. And this may surprise you, but Traore is statistically one of the best dribblers in the league for much of his career, his take on success rate has hit crazy heights.

Regarding Garnacho's ball speed, it really isn't very good. If it was, his dribbling success rate wouldn't be so terrible. As for Messi's speed, I'm simply providing you with factual information; Messi's top speed ever clocked on a football pitch was running with the ball.

Anyway, this is really tedious now. I presume that, in your mind, throwing in puerile comments like "nightmare" and "shocker" lend your posts more credence, but in reality it's remarkably childish. I've been ignoring them in an attempt to keep this an adult discussion, but it's become clear I'm the only one of us doing that. I'm up for continuing this debate if you have a coherent rebuttal with some stats to back it up, but if it's more of the same 7 pints deep at the pub level analysis then we can just agree to disagree.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Mata wasn't a good dribbler, because he lacked the explosiveness or acceleration, just like Garnacho. The main difference being that Mata was aware of this and didn't repeatedly try to beat players despite not being good at it. And this may surprise you, but Traore is statistically one of the best dribblers in the league for much of his career, his take on success rate has hit crazy heights.

Regarding Garnacho's ball speed, it really isn't very good. If it was, his dribbling success rate wouldn't be so terrible. As for Messi's speed, I'm simply providing you with factual information; Messi's top speed ever clocked on a football pitch was running with the ball.

Anyway, this is really tedious now. I presume that, in your mind, throwing in puerile comments like "nightmare" and "shocker" lend your posts more credence, but in reality it's remarkably childish. I've been ignoring them in an attempt to keep this an adult discussion, but it's become clear I'm the only one of us doing that. I'm up for continuing this debate if you have a coherent rebuttal with some stats to back it up, but if it's more of the same 7 pints deep at the pub level analysis then we can just agree to disagree.

You can’t escape that you said he has poor acceleration and pace. The fact you are now likening Mata to him, and also have already said he’s not faster than Antony is unequivocally having a nightmare on here.

 

[The Hilton]

You can’t escape that you said he has poor acceleration and pace. The fact you are now likening Mata to him, and also have already said he’s not faster than Antony is unequivocally having a nightmare on here.

Yawn. It's like trying to have a conversation with a word of the day calendar. Let's park this now.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Yawn. It's like trying to have a conversation with a word of the day calendar. Let's park this now.

Imagine having a conversation with someone who thinks Garnacho, Mata and Antony are all the same level of speed/acceleration.

 

[Marwood]

That he’s young and also quite predictable? Go look at the top dribblers in the PL, they’re not all just out and out rapid players.

What stat with any meaning have you posted? I’ve just seen you getting taught by other posters how you have misused stats and I’ve had to tell you now about 4 times how irrelevant top speed is. Like Google Messi top speed and then explain how he was so much better than faster players, it’s just a complete lack of basic football knowledge to think dribbling is solely about speed.

It's not solely about speed but as a wide players it's almost a necessity if you want to beat players.

In central areas it's a bit different but you can't consistently beat a fullback without high level speed.

Unless you'e got some other genius attribute. Even then, you still need some level of pace.