[Smores]

No, he doesn’t. For assists he ranks joint 132nd in the league. For goals, he ranks joint 70th.

Bruno is quite clearly our most effective attacking threat, because he absolutely dwarfs Garnacho this season when it comes to goals and assists. If Garnacho was a better finisher or passer he would be more effective than he is now, but he’s consistently poor at both those things.

Half the stats he's specifically called out as excellent he ranks low on. Some people are really bizarre.

It's very obvious what Garnacho is good at and it extends to cutting in and getting a shot off. The actual quality of the shit and whether it was the right option usually go against him. At least when he plays on the right he's having to pass, Amorim has it spot on to shift him around.

He's no more ready than Hojlund is in truth, he should be a sub if we had any kind of quality available.

 

[The Mitcher]

He’s already been dropped from squad for attitude and training issues this season, and with that context, doing things like storming down the tunnel and then not returning for the second half is going to elicit some scrutiny.

He did return, actually.

 

[Zumbi]

He did return, actually.

Why did he agree to buy a meal for the rest of the squad as an apology for his behaviour?

The bottom line is that he’s been dropped from the squad in recent months for attitude problems, which is why he has a reputation for attitude problems.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

He did return, actually.

ive heard both, not sure which but even if he did return obviously he was pouting getting taken off. Halftime was minutes away. Dude couldnt wait til then to change his clothes? Obviously heading straight down the tunnel was his little pouting and being forced to pay for meals or whatever bullshit he ended up doing shows to that.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

He's 20. He's not Ronaldo, but for comparisons sake... Ronaldo at 20 scored 5 league goals that season, playing for Sir Alex and a functional United team that had lots of world class players around and had reliable scorers & creators in the team so all the pressure wasn't on him to do the scoring or creating. Which is how you are supposed to develop young players.

Again, it’s been said a million times but comparing him to Ronaldo is stupid, considering Ronaldo at 18 showed freakish talent and raw ability that Garnachos never sniffed. This isn’t just a “young players” comparison and my issue isn’t with him not being a consistent goal scorer or something.

My issue is people freaking out that we might sell him for a big fee and thinking we are selling the next Ronaldo type talent. It’s misguided based off a heap off academy bias and just extrapolating his age/media hype far more than the players actual progression and abilities. As I’ve said before, obviously in an ideal world he’s just a bench player that we can afford to take a lottery ticket on and see how he develops but that’s simply not the case with the state of our club and squad right now. So hard decisions have to be made, and we are talking about a player with largely average traits who’s done well to accumulate some production for his age but ultimately has failed to improve much at all since his debut (in fact he’s probably less of a threat as a dribbler than he was as at 18).

 

[dubplate warrior]

So despite being extremely high in the expected goals, shots, shots on target, touches in opposition box, tackles won, interceptions, blocks, ball recoveries, possession won back in the final third, fouls won, very low in the dispossessed column, he hasn't been very effective....

In any performance stats you want to use he ranks pretty highly in attacking and offensive threats, in fact he's nearly level with Amad on progressive carries, which I'd put as one of Amads many strong points in his game,

Its fine to not rate him, but when he is quite clearly our most effective attacking threat it really is a strange point of view.

Would he be good enough to play for a previous winning United side, possibly not, but I can near enough guarantee Sir Alex would have loved to have Garnacho in his squad, in fact he had stated as much previously....

One day, I hope people will realise that we're 14th in the league because our players are shite. Garnacho might be young, but he very much falls into that category.

 

[bosnian_red]

You could say that about any player though, we would never sell a player 20 or under.

Yes no player under 20 is the finished article. My point is a player who is getting in chances regularly but has had a bad finishing season at 20 isn't a reason to panic about the talent. He's not a shit player because he's missing chances. At least he's getting chances, and is capable of getting lots of shots off. If we as a team stop being a disaster and his finishing and ours as a team has some above average variance, then Garnacho suddenly becomes a 20 goal and 20 assists in all competitions player. It makes no sense to give up on a talent like that, especially when the rest of the attackers are entirely shit.

And my other point with Garna is he shouldn't have the weight and expectations of being the sole danger man to opponents in our front 3. That's too much for his age, and you can see it's affecting him.

 

[Zumbi]

Yes no player under 20 is the finished article. My point is a player who is getting in chances regularly but has had a bad finishing season at 20 isn't a reason to panic about the talent. He's not a shit player because he's missing chances. At least he's getting chances, and is capable of getting lots of shots off. If we as a team stop being a disaster and his finishing and ours as a team has some above average variance, then Garnacho suddenly becomes a 20 goal and 20 assists in all competitions player. It makes no sense to give up on a talent like that, especially when the rest of the attackers are entirely shit.

And my other point with Garna is he shouldn't have the weight and expectations of being the sole danger man to opponents in our front 3. That's too much for his age, and you can see it's affecting him.

I’ve seen some funny things on this site, but this might take the biscuit.

 

[Shaw's Shank Redemption]

Again, it’s been said a million times but comparing him to Ronaldo is stupid, considering Ronaldo at 18 showed freakish talent and raw ability that Garnachos never sniffed. This isn’t just a “young players” comparison and my issue isn’t with him not being a consistent goal scorer or something.

My issue is people freaking out that we might sell him for a big fee and thinking we are selling the next Ronaldo type talent. It’s misguided based off a heap off academy bias and just extrapolating his age/media hype far more than the players actual progression and abilities. As I’ve said before, obviously in an ideal world he’s just a bench player that we can afford to take a lottery ticket on and see how he develops but that’s simply not the case with the state of our club and squad right now. So hard decisions have to be made, and we are talking about a player with largely average traits who’s done well to accumulate some production for his age but ultimately has failed to improve much at all since his debut (in fact he’s probably less of a threat as a dribbler than he was as at 18).

If we don't need the money from selling Garnacho then would you still keep him?

 

[Zumbi]

If we don't need the money from selling Garnacho then would you still keep him?

Not directed at me but I’ll still answer. No, if money wasn’t an issue I’d 100% be looking to upgrade on him.

He epitomizes the main issues which plague our whole attack - selfish, predictable, low football IQ, inability to use incisive passing to find team mates in better positions, poor technical ability, not a great attitude. If we really want to build a truly top tier, fluid, cohesive attacking unit, I don’t think players like Garnacho and Dalot can be a part of it.

 

[Olecurls99]

If his name was Alex Garner nobody would rate him so highly. He's a typical flashy but ineffective winger.

 

[bosnian_red]

I’ve seen some funny things on this site, but this might take the biscuit.

Well he's on 8 goals and 7 assists right now with us having absolutely feck all in terms of other forwards at the club, he's drastically underperforming his xG in terms of finishing and again is part of "the worst United team of all time". It's really not that much of a stretch to say that that is his ceiling as a best case scenario and there's a realistic path of how to get there. A more normal base level is a 30 goals and assists in all competitions player IMO.

Also as an FYI that's basically me saying he has Rashford level potential. Rashford was for a few years a 20-30 goal/assist per season player with his peak being a 40 goal/assists level player. Garnacho absolutely has it in him to be a productive player in a settled team, with a functional CF, and when he's more developed.

 

[Zumbi]

Well he's on 8 goals and 7 assists right now with us having absolutely feck all in terms of other forwards at the club, he's drastically underperforming his xG in terms of finishing and again is part of "the worst United team of all time". It's really not that much of a stretch to say that that is his ceiling as a best case scenario and there's a realistic path of how to get there. A more normal base level is a 30 goals and assists in all competitions player IMO.

Also as an FYI that's basically me saying he has Rashford level potential. Rashford was for a few years a 20-30 goal/assist per season player with his peak being a 40 goal/assists level player. Garnacho absolutely has it in him to be a productive player in a settled team, with a functional CF, and when he's more developed.

His stats are massively padded by the early Carabao cup games against lower league opposition. In terms of goals and assists against PL opponents, he’s barely done anything for most of the season.

I don’t think think he’s anywhere close to Rashford level potential, and how many times has Rashford got 20 goals and 20 assists in a season? Has that even happened once? I can’t find a season where that’s happened.

Garnacho struggles to even consistently pick out an overlap. On what planet is he going to start getting 20 assists on top of 20 goals!?

 

[bosnian_red]

His stats are massively padded by the early Carabao cup games against lower league opposition. In terms of goals and assists against PL opponents, he’s barely done anything for most of the season.

I don’t think think he’s anywhere close to Rashford level potential, and how many times has Rashford got 20 goals and 20 assists in a season? Has that even happened once? I can’t find a season where that’s happened.

Garnacho struggles to even consistently pick out an overlap. On what planet is he going to start getting 20 assists on top of 20 goals!?

Guess what, when you play a full season you will have games against lower league opposition. That's very standard. My comment was for all competitions.

In terms of Rashford, I remember he had lots of assists in 19/20 or 20/21? I don't know where you can find historical assists across all competitions though. And in general, it's combining both. He reached 30 goals in 22/23, add the assists and how close does he get to 40? In 19/20 and 20/21 he passed 20 goals in each.

Also people hate using Ronaldo as an example. Let's use Vini. What did he do at 20? Let's see... 3 league goals, 6 in all comps. (Of course he did explode the following year, and that's unlikely for Garna as real Madrid is a competent team while United, are not).

It's a hard one anyway. I don't think Garnacho will hit his potential here. I don't think any of our players will. We are the most disastrous and toxic football club in Europes big leagues and absolutely are harming the development, reputation and careers of players who come here. All of them would do better elsewhere in more stable environments. If Garnacho does leave, I definitely think he can hit his potential and I think he has it in him to be a truly top player.

 

[Zumbi]

Guess what, when you play a full season you will have games against lower league opposition. That's very standard. My comment was for all competitions.

In terms of Rashford, I remember he had lots of assists in 19/20 or 20/21? I don't know where you can find historical assists across all competitions though.

Which doesn’t change the fact that Garnacho’s output in the PL has been atrocious. And if he can’t do it against PL opposition, I don’t see how he’s ever going to come close to 20 goals and 20 assists in a season, which is my point.

 

[bosnian_red]

Which doesn’t change the fact that Garnacho’s output in the PL has been atrocious. And if he can’t do it against PL opposition, I don’t see how he’s ever going to come close to 20 goals and 20 assists in a season, which is my point.

Edited my post to add more, but yeah. Here at United will he do that, probably not. I'm not blaming him for that though. If he goes elsewhere, I definitely think he can turn into a top player where he might reach his peak. Who knows what a players peak is. For me you look at traits and the things they do well already, extrapolate a bit, have some normal level over performance variance to their underlying stats and that's how you get there. If Garnacho is possibly going to get to 10+ goals and 10+ assists this season, as a 20 year old, when United are literally 14th and have had 3 different managers while Garnacho is having an all timer of a finishing underperformance and playing alongside probably the worst striker in the premier league, then yeah I think it's realistic to say that will improve in a stable team when he's developed.

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

Not bringing in loanees or any sort of help to replace Rashford/Antony has been costing us dearly - not just in terms of results, but also in terms of negative player development. It is unfair to have such incredibly high expectations of a 20 year winger who needs freedom and confidence to be at his best. Instead we're putting the weight of the club's goalscoring expectations on a couple of young kids in a dysfunctional, poor quality squad. There is a baller in there, but we're making it rerally difficult for Garnacho to be at his best due ot the kind of environment he's being asked to play in, week in week out. The same can be said for Mainoo and Hojlund, too. We're destroying our high potential youngsters through poor recruitment around them, it's sad to watch.

It's okay to miss goals and having inconsistent finishing at that age. It's not okay to have them bear the brunt of the responsibility for those missed chances or passes at this age - the team should not be relying on it in the first place.

Every problem seems to find its way back to poor management at the top. The rot begins and ends with the Glazers.

 

[Zumbi]

Edited my post to add more, but yeah. Here at United will he do that, probably not. I'm not blaming him for that though. If he goes elsewhere, I definitely think he can turn into a top player where he might reach his peak. Who knows what a players peak is. For me you look at traits and the things they do well already, extrapolate a bit, have some normal level over performance variance to their underlying stats and that's how you get there. If Garnacho is possibly going to get to 10+ goals and 10+ assists this season, as a 20 year old, when United are literally 14th and have had 3 different managers while Garnacho is having an all timer of a finishing underperformance and playing alongside probably the worst striker in the premier league, then yeah I think it's realistic to say that will improve in a stable team when he's developed.

I just don’t think you appreciate how rare it is for a player to get 20 goals and 20 assists in all comps in a season. It’s only happened something like 30 times in this century, and that includes repeat offenders like Messi, Neymar and Suarez doing it multiple times. The rest of the list is players like Henry, Ronaldinho, Benzema, Ronaldo.

Garnacho having a stinker of a season this year isn’t evidence to me that he’ll ever reach the heights of that truly elite level of attacking player. Noone’s playing Barnsley ten times a season. Sure, he might improve a bit in a better team, but I don’t think he’ll ever develop the vision or passing required to ever hit such numbers. He’s just too limited.

 

[Marwood]

He's 20. He's not Ronaldo, but for comparisons sake... Ronaldo at 20 scored 5 league goals that season, playing for Sir Alex and a functional United team that had lots of world class players around and had reliable scorers & creators in the team so all the pressure wasn't on him to do the scoring or creating. Which is how you are supposed to develop young players.

He is far too young to have the role he does. We've been so silly at this as a club for a while now. Over promotion of youth has got out of hand.

But my doubts come from his attitude/ego and the lack of top end athletic ability. Those things are hard to change. Not impossible but difficult.

 

[gobertan]

I don't buy into the the age argument when it comes to Garnacho. He has over 100 appearances in top flight football. Two full seasons worth of appearances in the PL. You don't improve as a player because of age. You improve as a player because of experience. And often time it's a marginal improvement from whatever the player's base talent level is. It's not difficult to grasp a player's general level. Even from early ages. It's why we routinely ship off academy lads every year. Garnacho's ceiling is nowhere near as high as most fans want it to be. It could have been a different story had he been integrated into a functioning squad with quality competition for places, but I imagine if that were the case he would most likely have ended up like the countless other youth players that get quietly sold off every year.

 

[Champ]

One day, I hope people will realise that we're 14th in the league because our players are shite. Garnacho might be young, but he very much falls into that category.

In which case so are the rest of them by that very flawed metric ....

 

[FerociousCorgis]

a couple of years ago i wouldve been pissed to see the sale of garnacho. Watching his development stall though makes me a lot more open to it. Even more so as you see a bit of that diva attitude he has, that isn't quite backed up by the needed skill. His dribbling is sub par, his passing is sub par, and he isnt a strong player. He has good shooting, but very inconsistent, and makes pretty poor decisions generally. Off the ball workrate is good however. If we could parlay him into two good 30 million range player targets id be honestly happy with it. Of course we could sell for 60 and blow all that on a player like mount who never does anything, but i think that is an entirely different conversation.

 

[dubplate warrior]

In which case so are the rest of them by that very flawed metric ....

They are shite. Barring a handful, they absolutely are shit

 

[Zumbi]

In which case so are the rest of them by that very flawed metric ....

Correct. There’s a only a few we should be building the team around. And Garnacho isn’t one of them.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

If we don't need the money from selling Garnacho then would you still keep him?

If we were a successful team then absolutely I'd keep him. If he's still a starter and we were getting big offers? I'd look to cash in if the price is right.

He's been elevated to a status beyond his abilities in my opinion (not all his fault really). The good part of that is that you have a player that conventionally will be priced high on the market. The bad part is that, especially with Garnacho himself, it's difficult to reduce that players role again while still having him buy into the club.

 

[Olecurls99]

Looking back on his career, it has to be noted that this is his 2nd proper season. He has definitely regressed and his natural position has been taken out of the team but he is still young and the qualities I saw last year where a nose for being in the right place and an ability to beat a player and shoot.

I don't think it's enough for an Amorim 10 and for that reason I'd sell him for 60m

 

[jem]

Correct. There’s an only a few we should be building the team around. And Garnacho isn’t one of them.

Agreed. Amad is one of those; Garnacho isn’t

 

[FlawlessVictory88]

So despite being extremely high in the expected goals, shots, shots on target, touches in opposition box, tackles won, interceptions, blocks, ball recoveries, possession won back in the final third, fouls won, very low in the dispossessed column, he hasn't been very effective....

In any performance stats you want to use he ranks pretty highly in attacking and offensive threats, in fact he's nearly level with Amad on progressive carries, which I'd put as one of Amads many strong points in his game,

Its fine to not rate him, but when he is quite clearly our most effective attacking threat it really is a strange point of view.

Would he be good enough to play for a previous winning United side, possibly not, but I can near enough guarantee Sir Alex would have loved to have Garnacho in his squad, in fact he had stated as much previously....

You clearly don't know how these stats work. 5% = bottom 5% not top.

Messi and Neymar were 99 on dribbling because they were elite. The closer to 100 a a player is the better he performs.

All those stats for Garnacho highlight how he's among the worst wingers in the league for tackles won, ball recoveries etc.

Also taking the most shots but yet barely scoring any goals isn't a brag. It's like being the player who get's the most yellow cards.

It should go without saying that their are certain statistics which are more relevant to every position, no one really cares how many goals/assists or dribbles a centre back averages for example.

Low in the dispossessed column yet creates almost no chances/dribbles/progressive passes/goals or assists.

Here's the most important statistics for wingers.

Goals
Assists:
EX Goals
EX Assists
Shot creating actions
Successful take ons
Progressive passes
Passes into final third
Passes into penalty area
Progressive Carries.

How many aerial duels a winger wins or the amount of blocks they average aren't very relevant, those stats are used to measure centre backs etc

Garnacho is incredibly poor in all of the most important metrics for wingers.

 

[Desert Eagle]

Not bringing in loanees or any sort of help to replace Rashford/Antony has been costing us dearly - not just in terms of results, but also in terms of negative player development. It is unfair to have such incredibly high expectations of a 20 year winger who needs freedom and confidence to be at his best. Instead we're putting the weight of the club's goalscoring expectations on a couple of young kids in a dysfunctional, poor quality squad. There is a baller in there, but we're making it rerally difficult for Garnacho to be at his best due ot the kind of environment he's being asked to play in, week in week out. The same can be said for Mainoo and Hojlund, too. We're destroying our high potential youngsters through poor recruitment around them, it's sad to watch.

It's okay to miss goals and having inconsistent finishing at that age. It's not okay to have them bear the brunt of the responsibility for those missed chances or passes at this age - the team should not be relying on it in the first place.

Every problem seems to find its way back to poor management at the top. The rot begins and ends with the Glazers.

Exactly. In an ideal situation Garnacho would be coming on with 15-20 minutes to go in games where we are chasing a goal and give us some attacking spark but he is having to perform to the level of a seasoned pro which he clearly doesn't have the physicality or mentality for at the moment. He is only 20 and no doubt he will get better but the question is how much better. Will he peak as a SWP or Lennon level winger or does he have it in him to get to that Nani level?

 

[Champ]

Correct. There’s a only a few we should be building the team around. And Garnacho isn’t one of them.

It's inherently incorrect, there's no arguing against that.

To say these players are rubbish is just plain wrong, you may think that, but they are quite clearly not rubbish.

 

[Champ]

You clearly don't know how these stats work. 5% = bottom 5% not top.

Messi and Neymar were 99 on dribbling because they were elite. The closer to 100 a a player is the better he performs.

All those stats for Garnacho highlight how he's among the worst wingers in the league for tackles won, ball recoveries etc.

Also taking the most shots but yet barely scoring any goals isn't a brag. It's like being the player who get's the most yellow cards.

It should go without saying that their are certain statistics which are more relevant to every position, no one really cares how many goals/assists or dribbles a centre back averages for example.

Low in the dispossessed column yet creates almost no chances/dribbles/progressive passes/goals or assists.

Here's the most important statistics for wingers.

Goals
Assists:
EX Goals
EX Assists
Shot creating actions
Successful take ons
Progressive passes
Passes into final third
Passes into penalty area
Progressive Carries.

How many aerial duels a winger wins or the amount of blocks they average aren't very relevant, those stats are used to measure centre backs etc

Garnacho is incredibly poor in all of the most important metrics for wingers.

No, I fully understand the metrics, he is very high in the metrics I pointed out, also in quite a few that you've mentioned there as well.
Also on terms of how he fares in those metrics in this team he is near enough top too. Highlighting his worth to the team.

Blocks, interceptions, possession won back etc are very important for a player in a pressing team whose system relies on winning the ball back quickly and getting into defensive blocks to intercept passes. But that's ok if you missed that.

Also it shows his attitude to the defensive side of the game is spot on, something leveled at Rashford as being severely lacking for example, yet with Garnacho we suddenly don't need to worry about that.
Almost like we are cherry picking stats to back up a straw man argument...but again that's ok.

 

[FlawlessVictory88]

No, I fully understand the metrics, he is very high in the metrics I pointed out, also in quite a few that you've mentioned there as well.
Also on terms of how he fares in those metrics in this team he is near enough top too. Highlighting his worth to the team.

Blocks, interceptions, possession won back etc are very important for a player in a pressing team whose system relies on winning the ball back quickly and getting into defensive blocks to intercept passes. But that's ok if you missed that.

Also it shows his attitude to the defensive side of the game is spot on, something leveled at Rashford as being severely lacking for example, yet with Garnacho we suddenly don't need to worry about that.
Almost like we are cherry picking stats to back up a straw man argument...but again that's ok.

Ahh yes I'm the one cherry picking stats to back up an argument.

I've got an idea why don't we use all the stats you picked and see how Garnacho compares with Antony?



Shots on target : Antony 99 Garnacho 88

Tackles won: Antony 96 Garnacho 33

Touches in Attack 3rd Antony 99 Garnacho 68

Touches in Pen : Antony 42 Garnacho 98

Interceptions: Antony 99 Garnacho 62

Blocks: Antony 97 Garnacho 57

Ball recoveries: Antony 99 Garnacho 41

Possession won back Antony 81 Garnacho 56
in final 3rd

Fouls won: Antony 64 Garnacho 65

Dispossessed: Antony 61 Garnacho 33

Also Anthony being higher in the dispossessed column means he's been dispossessed less. 1.36 times per game vs Garnacho 1.8

So by your logic if Garnacho is an extremely high performer in these areas then Antony must be Messi.

 

[Shaw's Shank Redemption]

Ahh yes I'm the one cherry picking stats to back up an argument.

I've got an idea why don't we use all the stats you picked and see how Garnacho compares with Antony?



Shots on target : Antony 99 Garnacho 88

Tackles won: Antony 96 Garnacho 33

Touches in Attack 3rd Antony 99 Garnacho 68

Touches in Pen : Antony 42 Garnacho 98

Interceptions: Antony 99 Garnacho 62

Blocks: Antony 97 Garnacho 57

Ball recoveries: Antony 99 Garnacho 41

Possession won back Antony 81 Garnacho 56
in final 3rd

Fouls won: Antony 64 Garnacho 65

Dispossessed: Antony 61 Garnacho 33

Also Anthony being higher in the dispossessed column means he's been dispossessed less. 1.36 times per game vs Garnacho 1.8

So by your logic if Garnacho is an extremely high performer in these areas then Antony must be Messi.

What a car crash of a post

 

[FlawlessVictory88]

What a car crash of a post

The poster claimed Garnacho was an extremely high performer in all those categories.

I compared his numbers with Antony who is far ahead in almost all of them. So if those metrics are being used to measure the player by his logic Antony is far superior to Garnacho.

Do you know how analytics work?

 

[Shaw's Shank Redemption]

The poster claimed Garnacho was an extremely high performer in all those categories.

I compared his numbers with Antony who is far ahead in almost all of them. So if those metrics are being used to measure the player by his logic Antony is far superior to Garnacho.

Do you know how analytics work?

Antony in the PL?

 

[FlawlessVictory88]

Antony in the PL?

So that's a no then.

Premier league and La Liga.

 

[Shaw's Shank Redemption]

So that's a no then.

Premier league and La Liga.

Nice Analytics comparing a PL player to La Liga performances

Garnacho would tear it up for Betis just as much or more than Antony!

 

[FlawlessVictory88]

Nice Analytics comparing a PL player to La Liga performances

Garnacho would tear it up for Betis just as much or more than Antony!

Analytics includes all of Antonys premier league games.

 

[Red00012]

I think between now and season end it’s make or break for him , I feel Amorim will move him on if he continues to sulk and not deliver on the field.
If he does leave I’m sure we can find a replacement that is a team player and can do better than assist 1 every 20 games

 

[FrankWhite]

The only quality higher than his graft on offence, is his selfishness and immaturity.