If only SAF had been privy to Llanelli's wisdom he could have saved a fortune (assuming Young is signed).
What was he thinking?
What was he thinking?
A. Young | Guardian: Medical today
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to talk about United's dreadful home defeat at the hands of Big Ange's Tottenham Hotspur. Should this have been the end of Ten Hag? How long does he actually have left? And does Nik finally want ETH out?!
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We spent combined 60 million pounds on Veron and Berbatov. Not questioning SAF's wisdom but we have a history of overpaying. At the same time, he likes to moan about no value in the market. Doesn't make really sense at the end of the day.
What about at the beginning of the day? Or at the end of a game of too halves where the boy done good?
And the price isn't really the issue. SAF has identified players that he think will improve us and yet people like you take issue and take pedantic issue using a phrase he used a while back to (in effect) justify not paying too much for certain players like Benzema (which was a great call it would seem). There are no guarantees with transfers but he gets it right far more often than you could reasonably expect yet self opinionated whiners like you take issue with everything.
I also wonder what you are going to do if Nani leaves, as some of the papers are speculating?
And the price isn't really the issue. SAF has identified players that he think will improve us and yet people like you take issue and take pedantic issue using a phrase he used a while back to (in effect) justify not paying too much for certain players like Benzema (which was a great call it would seem). There are no guarantees with transfers but he gets it right far more often than you could reasonably expect yet self opinionated whiners like you take issue with everything.
I also wonder what you are going to do if Nani leaves, as some of the papers are speculating?
If you could spend around 10 to 15mil (what ever the price is) on a proven Premier League winger other then Young please tell. Your problem is you keep saying mediocrity, solid, average Young is none of those things, he is a very good premier league player who would improve are squad.
SAF Know's more about football than us, it seems to me that it is the same sort of situation as before Antonio signed for us, there were many doubters, as well as many well wishers.. If any single person in this forum can present to me a better wide-man for his value than Young then I suggest that they are more knowledgeable than the Great man Himself.
Please do. I'll show that you are strawmanning the many reasonable objections that have been raised, including my own.
[If your comment is only in reference to anyone who believes that he will be an unmitigated failure, or that he is 'shit', 'average', etc, you should have been more clear. I wouldn't personally bump a thread with the specific intention of embarrassing someone, but only because it's pointless attempting to reason with anyone who believes that 'he's shit' is a worthwhile comment.]
There are hundreds of players around the world who could turn out to be a good signing for this club, but that is not a particularly compelling reason to support an individual signing by itself. I hope that this doesn't blow your mind, but I'd go even further than you have. I believe that Young would be a fantastic signing, but I would still prefer that the club didn't sign him. Contrary to what many clearly believe there is no contradiction between those two statements.
To underscore this point even further, John O'Shea has been a fantastic servant to United and a very good player. But it's not unreasonable to believe that there are better players in the world and that United need to improve in the areas where O'Shea mainly operates, which may include looking to replace him. I don't personally believe that, but it's not obviously wrong, either.
What we believe about an individual player or team depends on the context in which the question is presented. So, for example, if United had been relegated to League Two, it would not then be unreasonable to believe that most of the players in League One could be considered 'good signing
I have articulated my own objections starting on page 15 of this very thread, so I don't want to repeat them in full here. The basis of my concern is that I believe that there is the potential for genuine improvement, paticularly and most crucially within the first 11-15 players. Some of that will undoubtedly come from the players that are already at the club -- Hernandez, for example -- but the evidence of the season just ended persuades me that this current team is some way short of the standard that we have reached in previous years.
The performances, the results, and the style of football, were all dissappointing at various stages last season, and it would be a mistake to ignore all of that simply because the club enjoyed another hugely successful season. It's fair to say that we are some way behind Barcelona, and possibly even Real Madrid (although that's arguable), and there are also teams in the Premier League -- Chelsea and Man City being the most obvious -- who will be looking to improve, and have the money to attract players of the highest quality.
The issue that I have with signing Young actually has very little to do with his ability to perform exceptionally well in most circumstances. I'm just not convinced that he quite has the ability to elevate the team to a much higher level than it already occupies. He will almost certainly improve the squad and provide a very good option on left. And his ability from set pieces alone will be extremely valuable. But is that enough? Will he be chosen ahead of Nani, Valencia, or Park in the games where his qualities would be most valuable, for example? I'm not so sure.
I should state that this argument is entirely context dependent. If the club signs one or perhaps two other players that provide a genuine boost in quality, and if certain players in the first fifteen improve sufficiently, it's entirely possible that these objections will melt away.
I think Young would be a very good signing and would instantly provided very much needed goals from midfield. However, for 18mil is utter madness. I would get him to stay till end of the season and give him a huge signing on fee, or persuade him to stay till Jan, then put in a 8mil offer.
On that basis, Valencia, Park and Carrick shouldn't be anywhere near the first eleven. Football is a team game, not a team of individuals where you pick the best eleven players in the world, and they go on to win everything. However, i do see where you are coming from, and i have no doubts we will bring in a true star to play in the centre of midfield. Trust Fergie.
SAF probably feels that in Nani, Valencia and Park we're a match for any team wing wise. So we're not looking to 'better' that area for a while. With us losing a big chunk of our English players, we needed to add a bit more to the team and it just so happens that Young is available. With Giggs getting on and playing more centrally along with Park, Young will be a good option to have around. He's probably more comfortable playing on the left compared to the others aside from Giggs.
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Nani-Carrick-Anderson-Valencia
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Not once have you acknowledged that Young played most of last season, the best of his career, through the middle.
Young will adapt to Giggs' current role imo; central playmaker and back-up winger. It's the position he's excelled in for Villa. He's a better shot than Giggs, consistently better assist and goalscoring stats, better pace, big-game player. He'd be a fantastic signing.
I would love to see Young at OT but shouldn't we get a central midfielder to do the playmaker's role?
Young has played as a second striker but not as a playmaker in a midfield 2 like Giggs, he doesn't have the passing range for that.
Where do you come up with shit like this? He never did play as a proper midfield playmaker in the Scholes mould (the player and position we are attempting to 'replace'). As someone's already mentioned, he spent his time playing through the middle, yes, but as a second striker. Are you just so desperate for us to sign him that you pluck reasons out of your arse?
Perhaps play-maker is the wrong term, I've never played FM so my knowledge of the terminology for the various roles on the pitch isn't what it could be; I don't mean he'd be anything like Scholes. What I can see him taking is a role similar to that which Anelka plays at Chelsea, or a slightly more advanced Giggs with goal-threat.
My point was that Joga above discounted Young as any improvement to our current setup whilst completely ignoring the fact that he's highly adept at playing from a central position; something which I've seen many other posters do also. There's been so many long discussions in this thread that have entirely neglected the fact that Young can be effective and productive from a central position as much as, if not more so, than he can from the left. In United's team, who else can play such a position consistently? Giggs hasn't got the pace or, imo, the shooting ability for it; perhaps Rooney comes closest, but he'd play the position entirely differently than would Young.
It's for this reason, Young's ability centrally as well as his ability on the wings, that I don't see the argument of 'He doesn't add anything that we don't already have' as a valid one, because a) we don't have a player who can play through the centre at pace, and b) we don't have any quality back-up for our two traditional wingers, Nani and Valencia.
That's why I'm all for the signing of Young, because he does add options that we don't already have, and I believe SAF's ethos for the current United team is one of versatility and depth of squad, something which young would add a lot to, and why I believe SAF is going to sign him.
I think the games Young will get centrally will be when Rooney is rested, he's not a striker as such but could play behind Owen or Hernandez in Rooney's absence, but I don't see him partnering Carrick like Giggs did last season as he's not a midfielder.
What difference does it make to you how much we pay for Young?
On that basis, Valencia, Park and Carrick shouldn't be anywhere near the first eleven. Football is a team game, not a team of individuals where you pick the best eleven players in the world, and they go on to win everything. However, i do see where you are coming from, and i have no doubts we will bring in a true star to play in the centre of midfield. Trust Fergie.
This.
I'm not advocating Young as the only signing.
I want Sneijder AND Modric to elevate us to the next level.
But I doubt it will happen!
Thats pretty much Rooney`s position, yes?
I like Young put he plays in a very similar role to Welbeck so what does that mean for him?
I don't see him in the Giggs role though.
I would prefer to see Welbeck develop as Rooneys understudy and concentrate on a CM or two.
I don't see him in the Giggs role though.
I would prefer to see Welbeck develop as Rooneys understudy and concentrate on a CM or two.
Not really.
Welbeck is a striker who can play out wide but is at his best through the middle.
Young is a winger, who can play through the middle if required.
In the long term, Welbeck will be an out and out striker. The same will never be true of Young.
Do you not see then that by adding the Rooney/Young and Hernandez/Young partnerships as options to last season's successful Hernandez/Rooney system, the signing of Ashley Young is adding great depth and versatility to the squad? And that before we've even considered his inevitable contributions from the wings.
hmmm, seems like vice versa to me. SAF has said many times he expects Welbeck to be a in the whole or split striker, not an out and out.
They both occupy LW or second striker, I would say they are going to be directly competing and therefore slowing Welbecks development if he comes in.
Dont get me wrong, I hope Young signs. I just dont see him getting many games as the withdrawn striker.
I think what you're getting in Young though is a player who's proven to be reliable, with good end-product, a player who'll not only be a shoe-in for the starting line-up in case of injury to any one of Nani, Valencia, Rooney or Hernandez, but one who'll always be pushing for a starting place even when the above four are fully fit. He'd fit into the natural rotation of the forward players perfectly and, when playing, his career statistics indicate that he'll be scoring and creating a fair few goals for us. What more could you ask for in a signing? I believe that versatility has been the philosophy of SAF's rebuild post-Ronaldo, and in Ashley Young we'd be getting that in bundles. We shouldn't underestimate the fact that he's English either; it's always been a good trait of United's that we have a decent core of British players, and I believe that to be just as important as it ever was. If all goes well, in a few years time we could be looking at at least four of the English national team's starting line-up being United players — Smalling, Jones, Young and Rooney — and that's something we've not been able to boast for a good while now. For all the above reasons I cannot understand why anyone would dismiss the signing of Ashley Young as being pointless or of little impact and consequence, because we'd be a lot stronger outfit with him in the squad than without, and I don't really see any valid arguments to the contrary.
To an extent, the team being greater than the sum of its parts was vital in our successes last season. But is there something in the accusation that our squad lacks a certain "fantasy"?
I can't help but look at Nani, Valencia and Young and feel that we'll have three very good flankers, but no one of that fabled world class status - someone to truly make a difference against a side of Barcelona's calibre.
I don't see Young ever improving to the extent that he'd be able to put Barcelona to the sword. And I reckon the same can be said of our other wingers. Barca are our benchmark and we need to sign/develop players who will make an impression on them.
I think players of Young's calibre will maintain our domestic hegemony though - which is no bad thing.
I think the key to beating Barcelona is in defence and center midfield, I don't see what Ashley Young has to do with that really and so couldn't comment. I'm not suggesting that Young be our only signing btw, and just because Barcelona beat us doesn't mean we're restricted to only buying players that would help us beat Barcelona (that we should feel underwhelmed by anyone else); there's more to a football season than the possibility of a match against them imo.
You mean we should only sign players if they are better than the options we currently have in the first team?
Only Messi and Ronaldo can do that.
I think if you set your team up in such a way that it can compete against the very best, then it will fare well against sides below that level too. Barcelona are our benchmark and I think it'd be wise to try and set our standards to that level.
I look at our winger options (hypothetical) next season - Park, Nani, Valencia, Young - and feel that we're lacking a truly top class one; someone that is capable of producing something from nothing.
It'd a brilliantly balanced battery of players and would give us great cover over the course of the season, but when it really matters, do you feel any of the aforementioned players will make an impression against Barcelona?
Maybe I'm being unfair, but there's no point in benchmarking against other teams. We're already the second best side on the planet - there's only one side to look to.
That's not true at all.
We're not attempting to replace Scholes with Young surely?
Cider calls it right, besides filling in on wings he'll also likely fill in for Giggs in the middle...
I agree, the likes of Sneijder, Modric and Nasri have nothing on Gibson and Anderson.
He wont fill in for Giggs in central midfield as he's never played there, when played centrally he will cover Rooney as a second striker.
Well Valencia showed he can't, Young likely can't. Nani definitely can.
But sults, Consider for a moment here the formation that we'd play
---Rooney----
Nani--------Valencia
Young---Carrick
---Fletch-----
Thats the only formation you'd have with Young in the middle in Giggsy's role. You can't expect Young to come in and play in a midfield two as Giggs has done over the past season because he has never done that before and positional awareness in addition to defensive capability would be slightly lacking i sense. So if we're going to bring in someone who can only play in the midfield two or sometimes play out wide, shouldn't we see some other player for the same value?.
I wouldn't be disappointed to see young in the red of united, but i'm fairly certain, he wouldn't be bought to play the giggs role in the team for the simple reason that giggs can play in a 2 man midfield, Young from what i've seen, hasn't.
Keep tuned to SSN everyone, they've just promised a big update on him in the next hour...
I have my doubts as to whether Nani will be able to break through to that very elite level. My gut instinct says no.
We have very good wingers - no world beaters though.
You're underestimating our players imo.
My belief is that United creates world class players; that playing for United improves players, often dramatically. You've drastically underestimated Nani in the above post; a player who came on against Barcelona and did very well. Nani has heaps of "fantasy". Valencia on the other hand is consistent, efficient and effective. Ashley Young, in terms of playing style, is somewhere between the two, only he can play through the middle to great effect as well, something which neither of the above have ever really shown (though I believe Valencia has played there before at national level, SAF has shown no indication of wanting to emulate that position for him at United). Ability wise I don't feel there's all that much between them; they're all three top quality attacking players imo.
What's up with the thread title? Spaculation? Spackerlation?
I agree with your general point that we could do with another player in the midfield 4 that can change a game with individual brilliance, but I disagree that Nani isn't such a player already.
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