A. Young | Guardian: Medical today

[Amir]

Will we be good enough to win the champions league if we come up against the likes of Barca again? I'm not so sure...

Answer is: Probably not. But it doesn't matter. The only signings which will make such a difference are in midfield. It's not as if we're signing a mediocre midfielder. We're signing (if, and all that...) a good winger, one who could make a difference in winning the league, local trophies, progressing in Europe. As Sultan said, we can't turn Barcelona into an obsession. Should we not sign Varane because he wouldn't make the difference against Barca?

We have to work on that midfield, not because of bloody Barcelona but because it wasn't good enough for large parts of the season. But there are other parts we can improve on and I'd say a winger - looking at who we currently have in the team, and as long as Berba and Owen are part of it - would be 3rd on that list.

 

[Sultan]

Will we be good enough to win the champions league if we come up against the likes of Barca again? I'm not so sure...

Can you name some players who are available, will come and play for United and are within our budget who we can buy to beat the likes of Barcelona?

 

[Devilton]

I never said we should get rid of Valencia.

And as far as Ozil. I think you will find that Mourinho realized you can't play Ozil against Barca...if you want to win. You play Pepe and at least you stand a fighting chance.

I honestly don't believe we can play a traditional winger against a team like Barca. Valencia spent most of the game as a auxillary full back and even when he did have the ball he was shut down very easily.

And you're right. The midfield is our biggest problem. We need to address that first. So if we're going to spend, that's where the money needs to go. Young will be a nice bonus, but his inclusion won't take us to the next level. It'll improve the squad, but it won't take us to the level where we can beat Barca.

 

[Spoony]

Can you name some players who are available, will come and play for United and are within our budget who we can buy to beat the likes of Barcelona?

I don't even think it's a case of beating them... more...being able to challenge them.

 

[Amir]

And you're right. The midfield is our biggest problem. We need to address that first. So if we're going to spend, that's where the money needs to go. Young will be a nice bonus, but his inclusion won't take us to the next level. It'll improve the squad, but it won't take us to the level where we can beat Barca.

It's first priority, but it doesn't mean it has to be done chronologically... As long as we don't think whatever money that is spent now will be missing later, it doesn't matter.

 

[izzydiggler]

Exactly.

How many players are there available who can take us to the next level i.e Defeating Barcelona?

Madrid has proved that despite buying the best player from Italian, English and French league still couldn't do anything about Barcelona's dominance.

Madrid also beat them this season - granted they played them a lot more but having players like Ronaldo can only help you. Hercules beat Barca this year - they can be beaten. If they play at their ceiling it's almost impossible but if they don't.....one thing is for sure - I'd certainly prefer our chances with likes of Sneijder over the Youngs - if Fergie wants Young then fair enough (and aware that money doesn't mean success) but to not even contemplate that Barca can be beaten goes against everything our club is famed for.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Where did he say that? Of course there are some players we could buy but according to Gill and Fergie they don't represent any value in the market .

Maybe there should be a sweepstake on exactly how many times someone will regurgitate this particular painfully unfunny line over the course of the summer?

I'm thinking it will be in the high hundreds...

 

[prateik]

Is there an update on this?

 

[Devilton]

Can you name some players who are available, will come and play for United and are within our budget who we can buy to beat the likes of Barcelona?

Like others have said, Young is a good player, but like Valencia he will get found out against the worlds best teams. Fact is Young hasn't even produced against the best in the premiership on a consistent basis. Now you could argue that's because Villa aren't good, or that the manager lacks the ability to get the best out of his players but while Young will undoubtedly bring some depth and versatility to our bench there is no way he will take the club to the next level.

Sadly there aren't too many players who we can buy that will take us to that next level (the one's who can, won't be sold, or are so expensive we won't buy them).

I think you'll find I agree it's difficult to find the type of players who will take us to that level, and since we can't afford to buy 50-60 million players we will probably look for value and hope that third times the charm (if we do in fact meet them again).

 

[Mick1991]

Madrid spent 300 Million and are still a similar distance away from Barcelona as United. There are simply no players available on the market to compete with the trio of Messi, Xavi and Iniesta.

I agree, it's about spending smartly not expensively. But Madrid are a crap example and this isn't aimed at you because I understand what you are saying but I've seen other posters mention Madrid in a 'If they've spent all that money and can't catch them, we might as well give up' way. Madrid have spunked hundreds of millions up the wall before.......against a much weaker Barca (but one could argue an overall stronger league) and underachieved (for the money spent they only got about four or five years out of it).

I just think Real are the wrong example to be holding up. If we buy smartly and get a good batch of youngsters (which fingers crossed, we might just have on our hands!), we might have a shot to get at this lot! I think what people will find hard to understand is that it might not be possible in the space of 12 months, it could take a while! (Although if there is one gaffer in the game that could bring it all together quick enough it would be Fergie).

I'm an eternal optimist but I can't help but feel it's possible!

 

[izzydiggler]

Madrid spent 300 Million and are still a similar distance away from Barcelona as United. There are simply no players available on the market to compete with the trio of Messi, Xavi and Iniesta.

Madrid also beat them this season - granted they played them a lot more but having players like Ronaldo can only help you. Hercules beat Barca this year - they can be beaten. If they play at their ceiling it's almost impossible but if they don't.....one thing is for sure - I'd certainly prefer our chances with likes of Sneijder over the Youngs - if Fergie wants Young then fair enough (and aware that money doesn't mean success) but to not even contemplate that Barca can be beaten goes against everything our club is famed for.

 

[Devilton]

It's first priority, but it doesn't mean it has to be done chronologically... As long as we don't think whatever money that is spent now will be missing later, it doesn't matter.

The problem is the midfield. It's been the midfield. We could buy two of the best wingers on the planet but the gapping hole will still be the midfield and since we are probably saying goodbye to Scholes and Hargreaves is checking out. I would say that the midfield should be the first priority.

We have Cleverely, Welbeck, Bebe and Obertan for the wings.

Hell, we could even play Rooney there.

But the midfield is where we have lost most of our big games, and that's where we'll continue to look second best unless it's addressed this summer. So yeah, while I have no right to tell SAF what to do, I'd deal with the problem chronologically.

Midfields where we've had the problem for the longest period, that's our weakest part of the team. That should be dealt with first.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Are you serious? I mean, really?

The order in which we sign players over the course of this summer actually matters to you?

Christ.

 

[Wan]

We could still sign 5 CMs after we sign Young, De Gea, Varane and a couple more strikers you know..

 

[Sultan]

I think you'll find I agree it's difficult to find the type of players who will take us to that level, and since we can't afford to buy 50-60 million players we will probably look for value and hope that third times the charm (if we do in fact meet them again).

Success comes in cycles. Just as United were fortunate with the class of 92, barca are in a similar situation. Let's just see what happens to them in a few years. The greatness of SAF is him producing many new teams over the last two decades. Let's just wait and trust his judgement.

 

[SteveJ]

The greatness of SAF is him producing many new teams over the last two decades.

That's exactly what Pep was praising Sir Alex for recently.

 

[Devilton]

Are you serious? I mean, really?

The order in which we sign players over the course of this summer actually matters to you?

Christ.

It matters in so much that I'd rather we sign players in positions we are weak in then buy someone who well being good, isn't going to improve our squad in a major way.

The fact you find this strange is baffling.

You think the right way to go about is what? To buy a winger, a striker, hire an extra dozen bootboys and then think about the midfield hole caused by the departure of Scholes?

That's an ass backward way of thinking.

 

[Devilton]

We could still sign 5 CMs after we sign Young, De Gea, Varane and a couple more strikers you know..

And we might lose a few key players (we have already mentioned the list of players that can make us better is small if we don't act fast).

We could buy 5 CM's. But what's the point if they are the likes of Djembax2, Liam Miller, Gibbson, etc?

 

[Devilton]

If we have a budget of 50 million. I would like to see 30-35 spent on a quality player to replace a legend. We have 17 million for a keeper, and anything we raise from sales and surplus we can improve the squad with.

But yes. I would like to see us buy someone with genuine quality to fill the void left by a departing legend, and a permacrock (who while he was fit was a damn good player himself).

 

[Ubik]

It matters in so much that I'd rather we sign players in positions we are weak in then buy someone who well being good, isn't going to improve our squad in a major way.

The fact you find this strange is baffling.

You think the right way to go about is what? To buy a winger, a striker, hire an extra dozen bootboys and then think about the midfield hole caused by the departure of Scholes?

That's an ass backward way of thinking.

How about we're actually working on multiple deals, but a marquee midfield signing of a top player takes a bit longer to complete than Young would/will/might? I can understand it in the sense that signing the midfielder first will put you at ease, but it makes next to no difference other than that.

 

[izzydiggler]

Success comes in cycles. Just as United were fortunate with the class of 92, barca are in a similar situation. Let's just see what happens to them in a few years. The greatness of SAF is him producing many new teams over the last two decades. Let's just wait and trust his judgement.

True but even so, Blackburn amd Arsenal were able to win the league around that time. I don't advocate wholesale changes but there's a happy medium where we can improve and at least challenge Barca, should we play them again. But Barca are secondary - we need to strengthen to challenge for the title but I'm sure that's not news to anybody.

 

[Devilton]

Success comes in cycles. Just as United were fortunate with the class of 92, barca are in a similar situation. Let's just see what happens to them in a few years. The greatness of SAF is him producing many new teams over the last two decades. Let's just wait and trust his judgement.

No doubt.

I feel the argument has veered off course in any case.

SAF knows best. I feel this second defeat will actually force him to stay another 5 years and will benefit the team more then if he won the champions league.

 

[Bryan_Munich]

It matters in so much that I'd rather we sign players in positions we are weak in then buy someone who well being good, isn't going to improve our squad in a major way.

The fact you find this strange is baffling.

You think the right way to go about is what? To buy a winger, a striker, hire an extra dozen bootboys and then think about the midfield hole caused by the departure of Scholes?

That's an ass backward way of thinking.

SAF and Gill have been working on various transfer targets for months, the order in which they sign them could be governed by a whole host of reasons.

 

[devilish]

Madrid spent 300 Million and are still a similar distance away from Barcelona as United. There are simply no players available on the market to compete with the trio of Messi, Xavi and Iniesta.

They spent 300m and got rid of 'rubbish' talent like Sneijder and VDV. Bottom line of the story they are more or less at the same level they were before spending that sum of money. We need to spend money wisely. That's a given.

We're underrating ourselves a bit too much now. Let us not forget that we ended up in the EPL winners, CL finalists and FA cup semifinalists with an average central midfield. God knows what this squad can achieve if instead of a 37 yr old winger in midfield we had a quality midfielder n his prime there.

 

[Amir]

You think the right way to go about is what? To buy a winger, a striker, hire an extra dozen bootboys and then think about the midfield hole caused by the departure of Scholes?

The time to judge is at the end of the summer, when we know who we have signed. Did we desperately need TWO midfielders and a winger in the summer of 2007? I'd probably say we needed a midfielder, and a striker would have been our second need, ahead of Anderson and Nani. Well, we signed those two quickly, and Tevez right at the start of the season. It worked out quite well.

 

[Devilton]

SAF and Gill have been working on various transfer targets for months, the order in which they sign them could be governed by a whole host of reasons.

What order they arrive isn't important. The priority they are given is. I look at the team and in terms of chronology the first area that needs addressing is the midfield. Then keeper (since VDS is retired) and then the general squad strength.

But I'm sure SAF already knows this, so it's pointless to keeping going over it again and again.

 

[SecondFig]

They spent 300m and got rid of 'rubbish' talent like Sneijder and VDV. Bottom line of the story they are more or less at the same level they were before spending that sum of money. We need to spend money wisely. That's a given.

We're underrating ourselves a bit too much now. Let us not forget that we ended up in the EPL winners, CL finalists and FA cup semifinalists with an average central midfield. God knows what this squad can achieve if instead of a 37 yr old winger in midfield we had a quality midfielder n his prime there.

I'd be the first to agree we need strengthening in central midfield, but you're completely overlooking the fact that Giggs has been superb for several years in central midfield and the idea that Giggs playing in CM is why we didn't beat Barca is absolutely laughable. You say if we had a "quality midfielder in his prime" instead of Giggs the squad will suddenly be so much better - our problem isn't that Giggs is "average" , our problem is that Giggs is close to retiring, Scholes' even closer, and players like Gibson (although useful squad players) are not in the same class.

 

[Bryan_Munich]

What order they arrive isn't important. The priority they are given is. I look at the team and in terms of chronology the first area that needs addressing is the midfield. Then keeper (since VDS is retired) and then the general squad strength.

But I'm sure SAF already knows this, so it's pointless to keeping going over it again and again.

For all you know it has been.

 

[Devilton]

The time to judge is at the end of the summer, when we know who we have signed. Did we desperately need TWO midfielders and a winger in the summer of 2007? I'd probably say we needed a midfielder, and a striker would have been our second need, ahead of Anderson and Nani. Well, we signed those two quickly, and Tevez right at the start of the season. It worked out quite well.

By end of summer it'll be too late to do anything about it. We're discussing it now because there's time to actually do something about it. Not that we have any influence over the dealing at United, but at least as fans we can discuss all the possibilities.

End of summer there's nothing to do but support the team.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It matters in so much that I'd rather we sign players in positions we are weak in then buy someone who well being good, isn't going to improve our squad in a major way.

The fact you find this strange is baffling.

You think the right way to go about is what? To buy a winger, a striker, hire an extra dozen bootboys and then think about the midfield hole caused by the departure of Scholes?

That's an ass backward way of thinking.

The only baffling opinion being expressed in this thread is your strange insistence that we must only sign players in the exact order of priority, over the course of a single transfer window.

That's more than a little mental.

What matters is the squad we start next season with, not the precise date on which the various constituents are signed.

 

[Devilton]

For all you know it has been.

I hope so...though i doubt it has. Fergie dropped the hint about de Gea so i think that was #1. Hopefully the midfield will be #2. My secret fear is he thinks Gibson can do the job, and that convincing Scholes to stay another year will be enough.

But hey....i want to believe you. I really do.

 

[Spoony]

The only baffling opinion being expressed in this thread is your strange insistence that we must only sign players in the exact order of priority, over the course of a single transfer window.

That's more than a little mental.

What matters is the squad we start next season with, not the precise date on which the various constituents are signed.

Agreed. I suspect we'll have put some sort of plan into place for the next few seasons.

 

[Devilton]

The only baffling opinion being expressed in this thread is your strange insistence that we must only sign players in the exact order of priority, over the course of a single transfer window.

That's more than a little mental.

What matters is the squad we start next season with, not the precise date on which the various constituents are signed.

Nobody mentioned precise dates. Stop being hyperbolic.

If you think priority isn't important in dealing with transfers then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Priority has everything to do with it.

 

[devilish]

I'd be the first to agree we need strengthening in central midfield, but you're completely overlooking the fact that Giggs has been superb for several years in central midfield. Our problem isn't that Giggs is "average" , our problem is that Giggs is close to retiring, Scholes' even closer, and players like Gibson (although useful squad players) are not in the same class.

Giggs was a magnificent player and can still produce the goods in certain conditions. Unfortunately one must take in consideration not just the talent and the passion for the club (Giggs and Scholes has that in bucket loads) but also the stamina and the pace of the player. Can Giggs/Scholes keep up with players like Iniesta and co and still provide the high level quality one expects in such circumstances by such players? I much doubt it.

It reminds me of when Italy wanted to take Baggio to the world cup (at the end of his career) because he would be fantastic if sent in for 15 minutes. They were right but after those 15 minutes he used to become little better then average.

 

[Brwned]

Ryan Giggs lacks stamina. The player who just last year was declared the fittest player at the club in pre-season. The player who covered more ground than anyone else in our team against Barca (and was only 2nd to Xavi). The player who covered more ground than anyone else against Chelsea at OT (and was only 2nd to Lampard). 2nd to only Carrick in the game at SB. 2nd to only Carrick v Schalke away.

You wonder what game people are watching sometimes.

 

[KM]

Giggs was a magnificent player and can still produce the goods in certain conditions. Unfortunately one must take in consideration not just the talent and the passion for the club (Giggs and Scholes has that in bucket loads) but also the stamina and the pace of the player. Can Giggs/Scholes keep up with players like Iniesta and co and still provide the high level quality one expects in such circumstances by such players? I much doubt it.

It reminds me of when Italy wanted to take Baggio to the world cup (at the end of his career) because he would be fantastic if sent in for 15 minutes. They were right but after those 15 minutes he used to become little better then average.

Ryan Giggs lacks stamina. The player who just last year was declared the fittest player at the club in pre-season. The player who covered more ground than anyone else in our team against Barca (and was only 2nd to Xavi). The player who covered more ground than anyone else against Chelsea at OT (and was only 2nd to Lampard). 2nd to only Carrick in the game at SB. 2nd to only Carrick v Schalke away.

You wonder what game people are watching sometimes.

Devilish just got Brwned

I'll get my coat...

 

[SecondFig]

Ryan Giggs lacks stamina. The player who just last year was declared the fittest player at the club in pre-season. The player who covered more ground than anyone else in our team against Barca (and was only 2nd to Xavi). The player who covered more ground than anyone else against Chelsea at OT (and was only 2nd to Lampard). 2nd to only Carrick in the game at SB. 2nd to only Carrick v Schalke away.

You wonder what game people are watching sometimes.

Sad really. But at least it makes you understand how people can come out with the "Sack Fergie, sell Giggs" style rubbish.

I completely understand the need to replace Giggs because he'll retire soon, but for the last 3 seasons he's been one of our best players, not the reason we're not the reigning champions of Europe right now.

 

[Spoony]

To be fair, does anyone actually read Devlish's posts or at least regret reading them after realising it's Dev who had written the carefully constructed post that'd taken a few minutes of your short life away?

 

[Aaron]

Giggs has enjoyed some what of an 'indian summer' to his career though. These last couple of seasons he's been fantastic, but there was a substantial period prior to that when he really wasn't all that pivotal to what was going on. That began to change really only quite recently as 2008/09. He really wasn't a 'vital player' during our last CL winning sides.

 

[Godfather]

So nothing actually official as of yet?