Pep not so much, Poch on the other hand...
A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino
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At what point did you cease to understand that I'm highlighting a particular Pochetino failure in a thread that is strictly about Pochetino? How on Earth does that count as singling him out?
Have you seen me in other threads saying other mangers were NEVER ashamed by Ranieri too?
That is a laughable excuse. Leceister had to climb over 13 teams at least, including Spurs to lift the league title whilst the normal big 5 were having pathetic seasons. That is the bottom line. With the top 5 asleep, Every one left who finished 7 to 10 the previous season at the very least had better chances to be champions than Leicester coached by Ranieri. In Spurs case, they had both the bigger finances, better squad and the superior boss.
I never understand how you think highlighting how dire the traditional bog 5 faired that season some how absolves Spurs or their boss from that shame of that Leicester lifting the league title.
The only thing remaining bizarre is your repeat pretending a Leicester City never beat him to a league title. With less resources than him, and having more points to make up than he had to go catch up to the previous champions, on top of having to turn relegation strugglers into champions. As conpared to Pochetino just bedding in a new set of players into a top 6/7 team.
Every manager of a team that finished above Leceister the previous season, is pretty much excuseless when it comes to Leicester winning the title when they did.
You keep on doing this and I keep on reiterating that you completely miss my point. Pochettino is a good manager doing a good job at Spurs. I am interested in how he can do in the future both at Spurs and at a club with more resources. That doesn't mean he's the first in line for me as a United manager. Which is what the point of this thread is.
I find it rather funny you bringing caveats to discredit United's two cups, while at the same time bringing caveats to credit Spurs finishing 2nd. Its textbook from a fan that isn't used to winning, especially since Spurs got knocked out of these very same competitions. United beat crap teams like Celta Vigo and Ajax...well Spurs couldnt even get to that level they got beat by an even worse team. I prefer to take a more balanced approach, Spurs did well to finish 2nd, United did well to win 2 cups. Objectively speaking though, Mourinho did a better job that season. He got CL qualification and 2 trophies with a worse team, that's the reward you get for taking risks in the cup instead of focusing on the league.
Also note that under performing in the cups is a recurring theme for Pochettino, and this notion that he's just unlucky has been completely smashed to bits. Since it happened again this season where Spurs went from 4 points to 1 point in the games against PSV and Inter away. Now they are faced with winning one of the toughest away games in Europe to not get knocked into the EL again. Which should really not have happened since they are a much better team than PSV.
One thing to note is that Poch rotated a lot for the cups and EL. The truth is that Spurs does not have a deep squad despite the claims here that we have the second best squad behind City. Dier was the 3rd center back in the season that Leicester won the league. Wanyama, Rose, and Lamela was always injured. Janssen & LLorente haven't worked out to rotate in for Kane. Right now we have to deal with Dembele, Wanyama, Sanchez, Foyth, Lamela, and Trippier out. As a Spurs fan, I wasn't surprised that we did not go deep in the cups because we had to concentrate on getting 4th. No excuse for losing to Inter and not winning at PSV in the CL though.
Dembele is done at this level, you might get 70mins out of him once a week. Wanyama's knees are on the out. Llorente I thought would be a good backup for Kane. Hes at the age where playing as a backup striker is fine and he has a lot of experience. But for whatever reasons it hasnt really worked out for him.
Midfield needs some investment, id imagine Dembele and maybe Wanyama on the move. Spurs need to invest some serious cash into midfield and bring in a box to box midfield star who can also operate as a pivot. But this kind of a player will not be cheap. Especially at the level Spurs require, think top 4 in the league.
They have the creativity from Winks, the DM destroyer role screening the CBs covered by Dier. Ndombele would be great but a lot of clubs are after him and he certainly would not be cheap.
Man, pochettino has a better technique than all of our defenders. Spurs are so lucky to have him as their manager. He doesn't complain, spent nil on transfers, and still has them in 3rd position. Meanwhile, we have one who says that he can't play a midfielder because we don't have a good defence. Mourinho is the only one who has an excuse for an excuse.
That's not the point of this thread. The original post was simply about Pochettino's work at Tottenham and what situation we would be in if he left, it's not a 'would you bring Poch to United?' thread. I don't really care if he would be your first choice, I'm not under any weird illusion he's the best manager in the world, I just think he's an excellent coach who has done brilliant work. Whether he'd be successful at United or not is open to interpretation for sure, in fact I posted above that I would have doubts about how effective his methods and strengths would be at a super club. I just think that you're playing down his work at Tottenham at times, at least that's how some of your posts come off. It sounds to me like you think there are plenty of managers who could have achieved what he has (with trophies on top?) which yeah .. I just totally disagree with.
Finishing second in the Premier League with 86 points is harder than winning the league cup and Europa League. Sorry, but it just is. We were objectively a better team than you that season, cups are not a good way to assess how strong or weak a team is because luck is a huge factor. Liverpool got to a CL final last season and could go out in the CL groups this campaign but they're not a worse team, it's just that they got a harder group draw and didn't get the luck in a couple of games. Just because Spurs got knocked out by Gent whilst clearly not viewing the competition as a priority doesn't mean that United's draw was anything less than a walkover. Had Mourinho been knocked out by any of those sides he would rightfully have been torn to pieces. You played fecking St Etienne, Rostov, Anderlecht, Celta Vigo and Ajax for god sake! And some of these teams gave you plenty of problems, despite this competition being your clear priority and best shot of qualifying for Europe. You had the easiest run in Europa League history and that is why Mourinho was able to have a 2 trophy season, not because he had a fantastic year. You also got outplayed by Southampton (ffs!) in the league cup final, but a Zlatan masterclass saved you.
I don't think Mourinho did a 'better job' that season at all. United overall ended up having the superior season, but Mourinho leaned heavily on a very favourable draw in order to win the Europa League, which if you hadn't won would have made the season a total disaster. Mourinho realised that top 4 couldn't be achieved and shifted the emphasis on to the EL, which in fairness worked out for him, but could very easily have backfired. Managers won't target the EL route unless they think top 4 cannot be achieved, because they're perfectly aware that a cup competition is far too volatile to be relied upon. Klopp did the same in his first season at Liverpool because he knew his team wasn't good enough to consistently do it in the league, but for him it didn't come off because they played a very decent Sevilla side in the final who were experts at the competition. Didn't Mourinho even say finishing 2nd with that same United side (with like 150m+ transfers on top) was his 'greatest achievement as a manager' ? Suggesting that even he is aware that doing it across an entire season, playing the same teams as everybody else, is a much harder feat that managing those 2 trophies.
I don't think Pochettino is just unlucky in the cups, he's definitely not got a good record in this regard. I think at a club like Spurs massive emphasis has been placed by the board on qualifying for the champions league, and Pochettino realises that in terms of our long term development that is more important than winning a league or FA cup. I'm not necessarily totally happy with this and have been angry on a number of occasions at how we've approached some cup ties, but this is the reality of managing at a club where CL football is far more important than it is to a financial juggernaut like Manchester United, who can attract top players without even offering CL football. And yes, Pochettino has made plenty of errors in cup ties, again he's not a perfect manager and I've outlined his clear weaknesses in a post above.
Anyone remember him as a player, was he a too defender?
I watched some of his highlights when he moved to us, he wasn’t world class but was very solid, nothing flash and had a bit of a *tough* reputation.
Having read through this thread it seems to me that the point of this thread was assessing Pochettino for the United job. If it isn't then that's my fault. I agree with you that he is a good manager with some improvements to make, he's got time on his side to iron out some of his faults as well.
As for the rest of your post, I've read enough of it from Glaston. It simply doesn't hold water because Spurs were in the exact same competitions and didn't win them. You could dissect 90% of cup wins like the way you did, but it's obvious its from a biased point of view. 2 of Real Madrid's CL wins were filled with easy draws, luck and ridiculous refereeing decisions, but that's all irrelevant at the end of the day.
'Cups are luck of the draw' is a textbook reply from a fan of a club like Spurs, but its been disproven time and time again. SAF and Wenger time and time again won the cups, it's because there is a process to it, they don't just drop onto your lap through dumb luck.
I'm not Glaston, I'm perfectly capable of seeing the flaws in my club/team and have made a number of posts outlining them. I just also don't see how it's biased at all to suggest you had a lucky cup run. It's just factual. I'm pretty sure fans of most clubs who win stuff would also say it was fortunate. You can't dissect '90 percent of cup wins' like you can United's Europa League run, because your cup run was very unique. We will never again see a team win a Europa League with such an easy draw, I don't see how that will ever historically be beaten. I mean for god sake the year before Liverpool had to face Sevilla & Dortmund, last year the likes of Atletico, A.C Milan and Arsenal were in the mix etc. It was a total anomaly.
Real Madrid had luck, but they also faced a load of elite level teams and beat them consistently, so deserve huge credit. It's not remotely comparable to you defeating Etienne, Rostov, Celta Vigo, Anderlecht and Ajax. You're acting like I'm suggesting ALL cup wins are down to luck and there's no skill to it, when of course there is! I'm totally aware that some teams/managers excel in these situations and it's far from just down to fortune, what I am saying is that there's more luck involved in cup tournaments than there is in a league format. I don't see how that's controversial or biased, that's mostly a roundly accepted fact. I'm also suggesting that there was a ton of fortune in the run you got to win the Europa League - again this isn't an outlandish claim, look at the teams you faced! Every single side in that last you would be delighted to get in a CL group, some of them probably haven't ever even made it in to that competition.
You can accuse me of being 'biased', but I really don't think it's fair. I have no grudge against United or Mourinho (and have defended both) and generally think he's an excellent manager who is just going through a tough season. Mostly Ido try and look at a situation from a neutral perspective, I just think in this scenario it's a bit rich to give too much credit for winning the Europa League that season. You always have to say 'job well done' when a trophy is one, of course, but equally had you been knocked out by any one of those teams it would have been totally embarrassing (and before you mention Gent, yeah I was embarrassed when they knocked us out. Should never have happened, but again a big part of that was down to us focusing on the league whereas your attention totally shifted to Europe as it was clearly an easy route to CL football).
I think if you said to anybody 'Right, you either have to manage to get top four in the Premier League, OR you have to beat Etienne, Rostov, Celta Vigo, Anderlecht and Ajax' most people would choose the latter anytime. It's just a far easier thing to accomplish, some of those teams would probably be bottom half in the Premier League (I think Vigo actually were a bottom half la liga side that season?) but the thing is Pochettino could never have known that this would be a route to the final, because it's unprecedented ... like I said, no team will EVER get a simpler run. The team you beat in the final didn't even win the Eredivisie that season and played with a bunch of kids.
But yeah, bottom line is he did win 2 cups and qualify! So absolutely on the face of it, you ended up having a more successful season. But IMO that's a very simplistic way of looking at it, and not very helpful.
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I think he will be our next manager. He is a proper manager who play attacking football, he doesn't throw people under the bus and is not obsessed with big names. He's also play an instrumental role in persuading Toby and erikson to join us
Clearly Pochettino is good, hes definitely an in demand manager. And this thread wouldnt exist if he had not shown promise.
Attacking football, shoestring budget, sensible player purchases, Son and Moura for about what 22mil each? That is a steal in the current market. Willingness to work with the academy/youth players and slowly integrate them into the first team.
But like a poster above I think he should stay on at Spurs, grow as a manager. See out his Spurs project, and hopefully win a trophy. Then move to one of the giants, he is a young manager, plenty of time for him.
Oh as an edit he certainly has some skills, watched the vid clip.
Attacking football, shoestring budget, sensible player purchases, Son and Moura for about what 22mil each? That is a steal in the current market. Willingness to work with the academy/youth players and slowly integrate them into the first team.
But like a poster above I think he should stay on at Spurs, grow as a manager. See out his Spurs project, and hopefully win a trophy. Then move to one of the giants, he is a young manager, plenty of time for him.
Oh as an edit he certainly has some skills, watched the vid clip.
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Before watching that video I hadn't really seen Pochettino with a football: he really is pretty good with it.
And you can get a good sense from the video how well he likely works with Spurs players on the training ground - warm, encouraging, focused - and how much the players would likely want to work hard to please him.
And you can get a good sense from the video how well he likely works with Spurs players on the training ground - warm, encouraging, focused - and how much the players would likely want to work hard to please him.
Can someone who has followed Pochettino's career as manager more closely, describe what are his strengths compared to the very best of manager? I mean in what is he better than Klopp, Pep, Jose, Conte? Most of the best excel in something and based their success on that quality. With Pochettino I'm yet to see what is. So someone who watches his teams more regularly can provide some insight?
I've no real way of knowing if he's better at it than the other managers you've mentioned - Mourinho aside - but I'd say his biggest strengths are (a) improving players through coaching and developing their confidence and self-belief; (b) developing team spirit and a team ethos; and (c) demanding (and getting) very high levels of fitness.
I don't know if it's necessarily unique to Pochettino (Klopp and Guardiola are also fantastic at it) but his ability to improve the players he has is his greatest quality, I believe. I can think of very few examples of players going backwards under his management (maybe Dier since 16/17) but there are so many examples of players improving. Eriksen when he took over for example was clearly very talented, capable of moments of brilliance but also very capable of going through large periods where he was anonymous, and generally considered quite unreliable.
He's developed in to an extremely hard working and mature midfielder, and then you have other examples like Rose (ruined by injuries sadly) and Walker who were both very hit and miss players, yet developed in to two excellent fullbacks. Then other obvious ones like Kane, Alli, Son etc .. his record with developing players is very impressive, he's clearly a fantastic coach. Like @GlastonSpur says you can see that the players love playing under him, you very rarely hear of any dissent in the camp and despite a mass exodus often being predicted, we're able to keep hold of players season after season, which I think is down to his ability to foster a positive feeling around the club, which again brings out the best in players.
Basically, I'd say man management is what he excels at, and I wouldn't say there is a manager in world football better than him in this department. He values commitment and tenacity incredibly highly (and his teams reflect this) so the fact his players are prepared to go to war for him is pretty useful.
We were actually pretty damn poor in Pochettino's first season, and I honestly think if he had a similar season at a club like United then plenty of fans would be very impatient and demand his head. Defensively we were a total joke, the pressing game was there but pretty inconsistent/ineffective and we were pretty blunt going forward, which obviously in large part was down to a problem in terms of personnel, for example as much as I adore him Ryan Mason was never good enough.
His teams work immensely hard on both sides of the game and only on very rear occasions does he concede the ball, Spurs are proactive most of the time.
The problem is that although he clearly tries to attack, Spurs can often be quite functional. Dominating but aren't expansive and don't create that much. His football is not normally as free flowing as Klopp and certainly not Pep. Think his biggest attribute is getting his players to play what many would call the best of their ability. I don't think anyone can say Kane, Ali, Son, Eriksen, Vertoghen, Alderweireld, Dembele, Walker etc could have been better than they have been in recent years. A core group of players usually seem to improve under him. The same at Southampton. It's tough to say what he excels at on the pitch. Although Spurs press high, they certainly don't gengenpress like Likerpool and they re not so much a possession oriented side like City. They are somewhere in between. If Spurs are excellent at something, I would say that they are incredibly difficult to okay through.
I don't think he's a better manager than Klopp or Pep, he's not. I don't even think he's better than Conte. The first two, we have no chance of getting and he's a much better fit for our club than Conte imo.
Had no choice but was an extremely attacking display considering the team they faced.
Top 3 in the world manager, where spurs are in the table given their lack of transfer activity, worrying squad depth and off the pitch distractions, is quite the achievement.
Probably another year or so at spurs before taking the Real Madrid job but there’s absolute no way he won’t be at spurs for the beginning of next season.
Probably another year or so at spurs before taking the Real Madrid job but there’s absolute no way he won’t be at spurs for the beginning of next season.
Impressive considering Wenger won the title in his first full season as Arsenal manager and finished second in each of the following three seasons (~170 games).
Great manager, was my first choice to replace Sir Alex when he retired. Still my first choice to be new United manager. Seeing him give a debut to another academy product shows the type of manager he is. He would laugh at the wages we gave to Sanchez, lukaku and Pogba. I would love to see what he could do with the like of our academy product. Greenwood and few of our other academy product would be world class or notable talent in a few years
Poch and Madrid just doesn't seem like a good fit.Madrid are far too reactionary.
United and Poch is certainly more ideal,especially considering we have a recent history with giving managers far more leniency and time than they've currently warranted.
Not that its likely to happen,mind.
If mourinho leaves before 2021, we’ll be at a rate of a new manager every 2 years or less. Not sure how lenient that is
They have been shit though, to be fair...
Thing is his style of play in 2016/17 when Spurs had Wanyama/Dembele fit and firing each week was better than Pep and Klopp. Since then those two have refreshed their sides whereas Poch has been unable to - I think becoming functional was a natural consequence of a declining midfield which hasn't been refurbished.
EDIT:
2016/17:
86 goals scored (highest in the league)
26 goals conceded (lowest in the league)
Might have to do with not being at WHL too in fairness.
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Didn't spend a dime...not a dime.
And trust youngsters & academy players and improve players.
Really starting to grind out the wins we would have usually drawn. We should have been winning but his subs made the difference in a game against a week organised Burnley.
This is what I was initially getting at. With each 3 cases they have stayed longer than they should've done.
We absolutely 150 percent will not get top 4 with Poch as the new manager,the squad is awful!!
To be fair, he did used to be a Argentinian international.
Touch and technique is not something you usually lose with age (up to a certain point). Just like a chef never loses the their skill with a knife, or a artist never loses their ability with a paintbrush. What does diminish over the years is strength and athleticism.
Glen Hoddle was famously the best player on the training ground years after retiring and becoming a manager. And if football was played at walking pace, Scholes would still be the best midfielder in the world.
But I trust him to gradually get us onto a solid foundation.
Really hope its before 2021 preferably April 2019 at latest
Was going to make myself look reallly stupid a minute and ask what you meant haha. Nice one mate
Spurs has no ambition to win the league, they have a very good team and just probably two top players away to actually capable challenging the league with City. I would like to know what Pochettino is capable of if he’s given a decent amount of money, he won’t have the money in Spurs but he will have them if he joins United 
Although, I haven’t been so Impressed with some of his highest signings.
But even so, with our current players, he will do worse than he is doing in Spurs. We need massive improvement in our back four.
Although, I haven’t been so Impressed with some of his highest signings.
But even so, with our current players, he will do worse than he is doing in Spurs. We need massive improvement in our back four.