Criticism is fair IMO. In 4 full seasons at Spurs, he didn't manage to win 1 cup or at least go deep in the EL.
A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino
- Thread starter NotBrendanRodgers honest
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It is fair.
Until he wins something with Spurs or any other club for that matter, there will always be a question mark looming above his head. But that does not diminish his accomplishment of turning an average Spurs side into a genuine top four club inside a four year period. Few managers in the game today are capable of mirroring such a feat, especially when you consider the limited budget he has had to work with/around.
Really? Now your excuse is Everton 'were better' than Spurs
You pretty much are when you start talking of Everton....Especially when they are not relevant to this discussion. Their failure can be discussed in a Roberto Martinez thread.
It being 'better than expected' isn't up for debate. Its allowing a team that was staving off relegation the previous season to beat a team like theirs to the league title.
No one said Spurs' season was garbage. We are simply saying rather Pochetino showed his short comings by being beaten to a title by Ranieri lead Leciester. Its that simple.
I'm not sure why you think highlightimg how others fell too absolves Pochetino
Dude a season ago, that squad were fighting off relegation as the season ended. To paint them as a 'great team' is laughable. They became a team in the same cauldron in which Spurs were doing better than the usual big boys. In which Spurs EVEN with their transition had much less ground to cover to catch up to the title winners of the previous season.
It wasn't lucky that made Spurs beat teams team less possesion repeatedly that season. It was by design. They were built to counter attack and exploit transitions of play that season.
I also dont see how that winning style anyway absolves teams like a Spurs lead Pochetino. Even if you think it was pure luck.
The point is you should NEVER have been in such a position. Especially when a side as pointless as Chelsea that season quashed your chase of Leicester. Not to mention how much ground a Leicester had to cover to improve enough to win a title, fresh from a relegation battle.
Im merely pointing out Pochetino's failure in a thread ABOUT Pochetino. Nothing more, nothing less.
If this was a general thread on managers, then we would highlight the failure of LVG, Martinez, Pellegrini, Wenger etc who were all humilliated by Ranieri's deed.
The man has failed us.
6 points off the top in a season where Liverpool are unbeaten and City have just lost their first game, all while spending a fraction of those 2 clubs and no investment this summer. The guy is clearly a top class coach. Put him in a situation where he can obtain the players he wants then I could only see him getting even better. 6 points off top while clearly not getting the squad additions he wanted. He doesn't complain or make excuses either.
It's not exactly success when you've spent over £700m on transfers since Fergie retired.
Add in wages over that period and the total is far more than the entire cost of Spurs' new stadium complex and new training ground.
If poch managed us, being given 400m to spend and 3 years. He'll still have to better Mourinho trophy haul because he's the better manager.
Just being fair. Using the same standard.
I dont really disagree with your post, but your post didn't really counter any of the points I made in mine.
Tottenham built the core of their team by unearthing several gems. They haven't really done that in the last couple years. At the same time, many of their stars are getting older, while others look set to leave when their contracts expire.
Meanwhile, theres no reason to think spurs have the financial strength to replace those guys and keep the ball rolling. As I said in my previous post, they haven't fallen off much, and I dont expect them to fall off a ton moving forward, but they're going to need some big squad additions just to stay where they are. Liverpool and city are in very good shape for the next 3-4 years, as they have great squads, coaches who are happy, and owners who will spend big. Arsenal and Chelsea are in a similar position to Tottenham, but have deeper pockets. United are a mess, but can only stay down for so long with the resources they have.
They'll continue fighting hard for top 4, but that seems to be their ceiling, and it certainly isn't guarantee. It's not difficult at all to imagine them finishing 5th this year.
You can almost understand the paranoid narrative in Mourinho's head when you consider the praise Pochetinho gets. He immediately wins 2 trophies, one in Europe, gets to another final the following season, comes 2nd in the league, etc, but the media is chewing him round in their mouth ready to spit him out. Meanwhile Pochetinho -winnner of the square root of feck all- is the next Manchester United manager, the next Real Madrid manager, the next President of America...
Didn't we all say the same about David Moyes at some points? Moyes is one of the biggest traumas that make United fans ask for managers with a proven winning record after that. Pochettino has won nothing, and had only 1 cup final in his whole career until now to boot... People are understandably concerned.
It ceases to be a valid excuse when one considers a Leicester went from relegation candidates to overcoming those very odds with the addition of one player and a manager believed to be past it.
Exactly.
Poch gets all the excuses out there. He didn't spend, they're building a stadium, he's prioritizing the league, met spend. He's a good manager no doubt but would he win something or not is what if situation right now.
Really? Now your excuse is Everton 'were better' than Spurs
You pretty much are when you start talking of Everton....Especially when they are not relevant to this discussion. Their failure can be discussed in a Roberto Martinez thread.
It being 'better than expected' isn't up for debate. Its allowing a team that was staving off relegation the previous season to beat a team like theirs to the league title.
No one said Spurs' season was garbage. We are simply saying rather Pochetino showed his short comings by being beaten to a title by Ranieri lead Leciester. Its that simple.
I'm not sure why you think highlightimg how others fell too absolves Pochetino
Dude a season ago, that squad were fighting off relegation as the season ended. To paint them as a 'great team' is laughable. They became a team in the same cauldron in which Spurs were doing better than the usual big boys. In which Spurs EVEN with their transition had much less ground to cover to catch up to the title winners of the previous season.
It wasn't lucky that made Spurs beat teams team less possesion repeatedly that season. It was by design. They were built to counter attack and exploit transitions of play that season.
I also dont see how that winning style anyway absolves teams like a Spurs lead Pochetino. Even if you think it was pure luck.
The point is you should NEVER have been in such a position. Especially when a side as pointless as Chelsea that season quashed your chase of Leicester. Not to mention how much ground a Leicester had to cover to improve enough to win a title, fresh from a relegation battle.
Im merely pointing out Pochetino's failure in a thread ABOUT Pochetino. Nothing more, nothing less.
If this was a general thread on managers, then we would highlight the failure of LVG, Martinez, Pellegrini, Wenger etc who were all humilliated by Ranieri's deed.
So your point is that every manager failed that season to a bigger or lesser degree because Ranieri won with Leicester? If so I can understand where you're coming from.And no I didn't mean Everton were better that Spurs, and I'm not really trying to excuse Pochettino because I don't think it's needed. I was just saying that by the same logic, if you add Tottenham to a list of underperformers who couldn't beat Leicester, wouldn't that make Everton next in line? They also let Leicester get ahead of them.
My point is that I think Pochettino did a good job that season, he improved the team. Who did the best? Ranieri of course, no question, but that doesn't automatically make what Pochettino did bad. I don't think it's fair to judge the work of one manager purely based on what another manager managed to do one season which was quite miraculous. Our failure that season was letting Arsenal finish ahead of us after the title was lost, not losing the title to Leicester imo.
Also, I didn't mean that it was only luck that Leicester won, and I know that they were a counter attacking team. But I watched their games in the last part of the season, and some of the misses teams had against them was as if they were destined to win the games 1-0 which they did. The xG must have been higher for many teams who played against them that season (haven't checked this), and that's not a style thing. Regardless, fair play to them.
I don't think you guys need to be concerned about Poch as he will not be your next manager.
People who compare him to Moyes are quite out of depth on that one. Moyes was a decent manager who managed to take a mid table club to certain higher rank and competed for the last European spot for years. His side though never really had a certain game plan nor tactical approach, it was more game to game basis.
While Mauricio certainly has his certain tactical approach and idea to develop younger players than to try to buy "PL" proven ones and fit them into it. That's already a huge difference.
While Mauricio certainly has his certain tactical approach and idea to develop younger players than to try to buy "PL" proven ones and fit them into it. That's already a huge difference.
I don't want him, but surely you can't ever be 100% it wouldn't happen.
I had a dream he was announced as our manager. It is done.
You can thank me later.
You can thank me later.
Hopefully you changed the bedsheet afterwards?
That's not really true. We have:
* Juan Foyth, a young 20 year-old CB who Pochettino trusts enough to have started him in our recent win over Chelsea. He has already played 450 minutes for us in the Prem, has made his debut for the senior Argentine team and looks to be our future CB partner alongside Sanchez.
* Harry Winks, who never looks out his depth regardless of the opposition and who now has three England senior appearances.
* More academy players in the pipeline - e.g. Oliver Skipp - to join the senior squad in due course.
And who are the players - Alderweireld aside - who "look set to leave" when their contracts expire? Several players have recently signed new contracts - e.g. Kane, Alli, Lamela, Son - and it will hardly be a surprise if Eriksen follows suit.
You also say that top 4 seems to be our ceiling. But I don't see that United, Chelsea or Arsenal have more realistic hopes of winning the league title anytime soon.
Citing a once-in-a-century aberration as the reason why Spurs should be beating City to the league title is bizarre to say the least.
I didn't watch the arsenal game, but I read foyth had a poor showing. And pochettino took a lot of heat for starting him over alderweireld. Winks is a solid player, but he's not a difference-maker. He wont hurt tottenham if hes playing with a few stars, but hes not going to lift them to a higher level.
Comparing these guys to guys like prime alderweireld and dembele isn't good for tottenham. Again, they aren't awful, they just aren't quite as good. Since this current group really came onto the scene a few years ago, they haven't added to the true star power that kane, erikson, alderweired, etc provide.
As for guys they're set to lose, alderweireld is a huge piece, and erikson would be just as big. Dembele and vertonghen are likely to leave soon, and lloris will become even less consistent over the next few years. Those guys aren't necessarily huge losses, but when depth and spending are issues, they wont be easy to replace.
And I'm not worried about Chelsea or arsenal because both clubs have more staying power than tottenham. Even with uncertain managerial situations, they can spend big money to get good players, as arsenal did with aubameyang. And this is an arsenal that everyone dumps on for not spending enough.
Tottenham has relied on getting stars for very cheap to punch above their weight in terms of spending. But they haven't incorporated new stars lately, while their spending has fallen off. They are not able to fill cracks with money, and a year or two of missing champions league would be far more damaging for them than it has been for the others.
Its a lack of understanding of numbers. You see much of the same if you go back a few years and people were claiming Mourinho to be the best coach in the world.
For Spurs to win they do not have to overachieve compared to just City. They have to overachieve compared to Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and Man Utd.
I think you're right.
Got to applaud Pochettino to sorting out your away form. Seem to recall that was the reason why you didn't get the title that season. You had staggering home form and dismal away form.
Son has been a terrific purchase for you guys. That goal yesterday was another belter.
I like Poch. I think he is tactically good, resourceful, and is good with younger players. Not that it’s the most important thing in the world, but a manager who doesn’t know much about the likes of Gomes, Greenwood and co may have already ‘replaced’ them before he starts, and I think with Poch having been here and so in tune with youth, that will be lessened.
It’s an added bonus that if he joined, he’ll be reunited with McKenna too, so the transition will be smooth in terms of academy and the squad in general.
Also, I think he will be great with other top young players we may go after like Sancho, De Ligt (whom he has been very keen on at Spurs), De Jong and co. I’d bank on them all becoming better players under him. The only reason I’d prefer Zidane is to give us a better chance of getting those players in the first place!
It’s an added bonus that if he joined, he’ll be reunited with McKenna too, so the transition will be smooth in terms of academy and the squad in general.
Also, I think he will be great with other top young players we may go after like Sancho, De Ligt (whom he has been very keen on at Spurs), De Jong and co. I’d bank on them all becoming better players under him. The only reason I’d prefer Zidane is to give us a better chance of getting those players in the first place!
Coming 6th is a failure.
Languishing in mid table is a failure.
Being knocked out by Sevilla is a failure.
Playing the sort of football that could pass as a cure for insomnia is a failure.
All of that while you have spent 400 million and have the biggest wage bill in the league, that's failing. Nothing winning second rate trophies by beating the mighty Ajax and Southampton can fix.
It boggles the mind when someone says Poch needs better players to win a trophy. So one of the best strikers in the world, one of the best playmaker in the league, two of the best defenders in the league. What you want him to spend £600m like Guardiola just to win the league cup or Europa league???
Spurs have the same squad value as United (due to good scouting by Spurs and bad scouting by United). Just because Harry Kane came from the academy doesn't change that he'll cost a bomb for any team to acquire. Just because they pinched Alli from MK Dons doesn't mean he won't cost a bomb either. For some reason good scouting and development seems to erase player quality in some people's minds.
Spurs have been good enough to win something for quite a while now, certainly enough to win some of the lesser trophies since the League and CL have better teams.
Spurs have the same squad value as United (due to good scouting by Spurs and bad scouting by United). Just because Harry Kane came from the academy doesn't change that he'll cost a bomb for any team to acquire. Just because they pinched Alli from MK Dons doesn't mean he won't cost a bomb either. For some reason good scouting and development seems to erase player quality in some people's minds.
Spurs have been good enough to win something for quite a while now, certainly enough to win some of the lesser trophies since the League and CL have better teams.
But surely Pochettino deserves huge credit that both of these relatively unknown players became such stars under his tenure.
I literally gave him credit for developing these players in the post you quoted. But that's not the point of this thread, its about his potential as United manager.
He is not going to get a better striker than Kane if he becomes United manager. I don't see any playmakers available better than Eriksen. A centre back partnership of Vertonghen and Alderweireld is formidable (although the contract situation has meant he has had to develop Sanchez to replace Alderweireld eventually).
Spurs in 16/17 were a very good team. Rose, Vertonghen, Alderweireld, Dier, Dembele, Eriksen, Kane were all firing. Yet what did they accomplish in that season?
They got knocked out of the group stages of the CL with Bayer Leverkusen and CSKA Moscow in it! And then got knocked out by Gent in the EL! They got knocked out by Liverpool in the league cup who finished 10 points behind them and were a much worse team. None of these teams were financial juggernauts with stacked squads. United won two trophies in that season with a worse team, the same two trophies that Spurs could have won but got knocked out by inferior teams. United were bang average in that season.
I agree that the trophy thing is a black mark. However, my argument has always been that we are at the far end of being able to win trophies. We need a builder. Someone capable of developing talent/potential into top players. Someone able to get a system that gets the best out of the top players here and the top players that come. We need to build a top squad and get that squad playing to its maximum.
We haven't built a proper squad in over five years also we have not been able to get any sustained form out of the players we've bought. That's our biggest priority.
I don't think there's a coach we could sign who has a better record at doing those things than Pochettino. The man has taken this squad from scratch to competing at the top end of the table, getting 80+ points consistently for four years on barely any money, when you consider sales.
It's not a stretch if you think such a manager could have a better shot at trophies with significantly more resources.
He's not a perfect candidate. I don't think anyone is. The only two better ones I can think of are at our rivals. However, I think he's a considerably better fit for this club than the man currently here and the other managers that have been mooted.
We haven't built a proper squad in over five years also we have not been able to get any sustained form out of the players we've bought. That's our biggest priority.
I don't think there's a coach we could sign who has a better record at doing those things than Pochettino. The man has taken this squad from scratch to competing at the top end of the table, getting 80+ points consistently for four years on barely any money, when you consider sales.
It's not a stretch if you think such a manager could have a better shot at trophies with significantly more resources.
He's not a perfect candidate. I don't think anyone is. The only two better ones I can think of are at our rivals. However, I think he's a considerably better fit for this club than the man currently here and the other managers that have been mooted.
This is Pochs best start to a PL season, makes the question of stagnation a bit silly.
It is so
Fair enough. In a thread not strictly about Pochetino? Yes. Everton and Roberto Martinez in partciular were amongst those thorughly shamed.
Its not in dispute by Spurs recent history he did a very good job that year. That goes without saying. But in terms of talking him up for the bigger stage, he missed a major trick that year. IMO it must count against him. Same way it's still counts as a lot on many other managers names.
Only JM can some what he excused since he had a squad riot on his hands. Though in many eyes that too is a reach....
Both situations count as a lot on the record of a man being talked up for jobs as big as Real Madrid though.
What is bizarre rather is you think Spurs should be excused from the shame that so called abberation brought on every manager and club that had finished in the top 6 the previous season.
Same way its bizarre you've chosen to see it as 'Spurs beating City to a title every season' argument rather than the highlighting the fact your club and your manager who you think a great of some sort passed up the one chance they might ever have in a decade to win the EPL title.
It doesn't matter that he hasn't won a trophy yet. I think he's on his way to becoming a great coach and ready for the next level. Genuinely think that he will win things here if we can get him and hope he brings Harry Kane to accelerate that. But he seems really happy to continue at Spurs and he shouldn't be faulted for that
*shudder* When you put it that way, it sounds like the big brother of our ex-manager.
Klopp is the better manager than Poch, and suiting more to the old United. But the bird has left the nest and start eating carcass already.
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If it was a shame on all the top 6 clubs, then why single out Pochettino for criticism? The fact is that, with the least financial resources to play with, you'd normally expect him to have the least chance of all the top 6 to have beaten Leicester, whereas he did better than Liverpool, United, City and Chelsea.
To criticise Pochettino for not having yet won the league title is bizarre.
We were crap in Europe that season, no doubt. The next season we learnt and were much better, despite being worse in the league.
But what did we accomplish? We finished second, with 86 points. I don't think people realise that this is a big achievement for Spurs, it's a position many Spurs fans would never have seen before in our lifetimes, for a long while even cracking the top four was a very difficult task. So, finishing very comfortable runners up and 11 points ahead of our most hated rivals was a big deal for us. I think people have to put achievements in to context, for a club like United where trophies have often been the norm and money runs through the club, finishing 2nd isn't such a big deal .. but for us, that level of consistency throughout an entire season was something to be very proud of. We were fantastic in the league that season, sadly Chelsea also had a monster of a season and got 93 points. That's football.
We got knocked out by Liverpool because we played them at Anfield and both sides played a reserve team, let's be real and honest here nobody gives two shits about the league cup until it gets to the semis. I get it, as a Spurs fan I have no right to be picky/arrogant over trophies, but it's a simple fact of modern football that these kind of minor cups have far less actual weight to them than finishing high in the league and consistently managing European football. Very few fans do more than shrug their shoulders when they're knocked out of the league cup. The Europa League is similar, nobody saw it as anything more than an afterthought until they had to add CL football as a prize to give it some kind of meaning. I have no doubt we would have beaten Gent had we been in a position where the EL was our best chance of CL football, but it wasn't so it simply was not a priority over the league.
United were bang average, but sacked off the league early, won a league cup against Southampton and were able to focus a subpar competition in the Europa League, playing the likes of Celta fecking Vigo and what appeared to be Ajax's under 18's in the final. Mourinho still deserves credit for winning 2 trophies in an off season, but the fact is there was plenty of fortune in winning both competitions and it's far from as simple as 'Spurs won 0 trophies, United won 2'.
And yeah we had some excellent players that season, hence why we managed a fantastic points tally and got to an FA Cup semi final. We were a very effective side (although depth wise we still had issues, one injury to Eriksen or Kane and suddenly you're looking at a huge drop in quality). But other teams also had fantastic players, Chelsea boasted Hazard, Kante, Costa, Azpilicueta, Courtois, Matic .. the likes of Luiz and Alonso were also great that season under Conte. City had the likes of Aguero, Silva, De Bruyne, Sterling, Fernandinho etc yet Guardiola could only manage 3rd and needed another huge investment to win them a league.
Bottom line is Pochettino has had us competing with the other top clubs despite having far less flexibility in terms of who he is able to bring in, he has to make do and develop players already at the club or bring in players on the cheap which comes with more risk. He's not in a position like Guardiola where if he has a problem at fullback (Which I think we do right now) he can just go and spend 100 million on two new ones. And these guys (Conte, Klopp, Guardiola, Mourinho etc) are world class managers in their own right, so for Pochettino to give us such stability and always have us in the mix despite these disadvantages is very impressive.
And hey look, he's not perfect. I for one have been incredibly frustrated by him, he's made some very questionable decisions and sometimes his game management can have you tearing my hair out. But, like Klopp he's a fantastic coach, wo has improved so many players at the club and I don't think you'll find many Spurs fans who think anybody could have done a better job. Of course we're all absolutely desperate for a trophy (I'd stab a baby for one) but we're mostly also capable of seeing the bigger picture of how he's transformed the feeling at the club.
Meh, I'd love to see what Poch could do with $400m, don't know how it's going to turn out but I'm done with whatever the feck Jose is doing here
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