A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

[el3mel]

I've personally never tried to take anything away from Klopp though. Regardless of how many better clubs there are in the league, winning a league is a great achievement. As is getting to the CL final as well.

Again though, with respect, you're comparing apples and oranges. Dortmund are the 2nd biggest club in Germany, with the biggest stadium. Certainly the 2nd most successful club. In the 90s, they won the league, twice and came runners up. They also won the CL in the 90s. They won a league title early 2000s. Again, compare to Spurs' recent trophy haul...not exactly comparable. If we're going to be making cross league comparisons, Dortmund are more like the Arsenal of the BL than the Spurs.

I'd say we are not pushovers. We lost a tie to the current Italian champions and finalist in 2 of the last 3 CLs by 1 goal. We came top of the CL group that we apparently had no chance in. We're doing pretty well in the league. Its not that long ago that I'd worry even when we were 3 or 4 goals up in a match.

I'm not talking about the wage bill with regards to the Leicester title win. I'm talking about it with regards to how I think he is overachieving generally with this club in the league as a whole, over his entire time here and not just one season. Also, Leicester haven't come close to relegation since coming up. They've finished 14th, 1st, 12th and are currently 8th I believe. Which other than the title win season, is about where their wage bill says they should be sitting roughly.

You're repeating the same mistake you did regarding Milan and Juve in your discussion with @ti vu .History isn't the thing matters. It's the condition in which the club was when the manager got the job.

BVB hasn't been that great side anymore when Klopp got the job. Review their league finishing after 2002 and till he got the job. BVB had become a midtable side that finishes 5th-7th each season and at one time finished 13th. When Klopp got the job there was no one expecting them to challenge for the title let alone win it. All expectations were to build a side that players a good football and tries to snap a top 4 finish from time to time. Klopp ended up building a side that played great football without spending much, winning the league twice and reaching CL final. He over achieved regarding the expectations for him. Has Poch done that so far ? He did matched Klopp in building a good football team without much spend but he yet to take it to the higher level, the level of winning trophies and competing with the big boys in Europe.

You have brought the wage bill as an excuse for that Spurs shouldn't have been asked to win that league against Leicester from the start so I don't know why you are saying it's not just this season now. If Leicester won if with their wage bill you should have then, and you had a better team than them. No one would be talking about how Spurs should win the league this season or the previous. We're talking about a particular season and you said it yourself in your previous post, you failed. There's no running around that and wage bill can't be used as an excuse for such a season.

If you're talking about your team in general and transfer spend, is Spurs squad worse than the likes of Chelsea and Liverpool ?

 

[africanspur]

@africanspur
Okay. You seem to be in bad mood today and jump on posts people were discussing about specific posts made by a specific poster

You make claim you're not saying Tottenham is not elite club ( Poch not ready for elite level???), then we don't have business discussing this. Why? Because that poster claimed other wise. You're fundamentally disagree with that poster then what are you on about! Not one with me but other posters. Chill mate.

Mate, I'm not in a bad mood, nor am I jumping on anyone. I think I'm debating pretty reasonably without attacking anybody or shouting down or anything like that.

I'm just not quite sure what some people are getting at. I know this is a Man Utd forum, so I've never come on here to wind people up, I don't expect sympathy or anything like that (and frankly, I think people that do are a bit weird, you're on an opposition forum). But I am saying this as a Spurs fan who's watched this team for a long time, who's seen some truly appalling players, managers, performances and seasons, that Poch is doing an incredible job at Spurs, at a difficult time.

Will he win something? I hope so. If he doesn't though, I'll look back at this period with both regret and happiness. Yes we should have won something, anything. Yet he's given me far happier moments as a Spurs fan (and far more consistently as well) since any manager since Jol (and the happiness from him was for a different reason). And I'll look back on this season, last season etc with more fondness than the utter shitshow Ramos served up, regardless of whether he ended up winning a Carling cup.

As for whether Poch is ready for an elite job, who knows? I dont know why people feel the need to make definitive statements, based on their opinions, as if they're facts. Did anyone think that Zidane would come in and win 2 CLs back to back? Did people think Di Matteo would win the CL or that Grant would be one slip away from doing so? Did anyone think CL winning Benitez would be managing in the championship? How many people in his 4th season started thinking Ferguson perhaps wasn't up to managing Man Utd? Who knows whether Poch would be good enough to manage at an elite level yet? This stuff is so black and white for some people. You many be able to manage some clubs and not others.

For example, if Poch were to go to PSG, I'm pretty sure he'd load up nicely on a few trophies. Leagues, cups. Is he the manager to get them further in the CL, win them the CL. No, I wouldn't tihnk so. But honestly, who the hell knows?

 

[BigCaine]

Asfor the last sentence, I'd appreciate the lottery numbers for next week as well while you're at it please.

Don't need to be a Nostradamus to see that he is a bottler, the season Leicester won the league, the LC final you mentioned, last season's FA cup semis, the Juventus game yesterday, he bottles so many big games where actual trophy is on the line.

 

[africanspur]

You're repeating the same mistake you did regarding Milan and Juve in your discussion with @ti vu .History isn't the thing matters. It's the condition in which the club was when the manager got the job.

BVB hasn't been that great side anymore when Klopp got the job. Review their league finishing after 2002 and till he got the job. BVB had become a midtable side that finishes 5th-7th each season and at one time finished 13th. When Klopp got the job there was no one expecting them to challenge for the title let alone win it. All expectations were to build a side that players a good football and tries to snap a top 4 finish from time to time. Klopp ended up building a side that played great football without spending much, winning the league twice and reaching CL final. He over achieved regarding the expectations for him. Has Poch done that so far ? He did matched Klopp in building a good football team without much spend but he yet to take it to the higher level, the level of winning trophies and competing with the big boys in Europe.

You have brought the wage bill as an excuse for that Spurs shouldn't have been asked to win that league against Leicester from the start so I don't know why you are saying it's not just this season now. If Leicester won if with their wage bill you should have then, and you had a better team than them. No one would be talking about how Spurs should win the league this season or the previous. We're talking about a particular season and you said it yourself in your previous post, you failed. There's no running around that and wage bill can't be used as an excuse for such a season.

If you're talking about your team in general and transfer spend, is Spurs squad worse than the likes of Chelsea and Liverpool ?

I'm not repeating any mistake. I'm not talking about ancient history. I'm talking about very recent history and the fact that BVB are the 2nd biggest, richest and most successful club in Germany. We are talking about the 6th most successful and richest club in the UK. So if we're comparing to other clubs, then Torino, FC Nuremberg and Vitoria de Setubal. I probably don't have to tell you that none of those have won the league recently (or indeed any trophy recently).

Again, I'm not downplaying Klopp's achievements. He did an incredible job, both domestically and in Europe.

Actually, no I didn't. I didn't say the wage bill was the reason that Leicester won the league and we didn't, that would be stupid considering their wage bill is still lower than ours. I was saying 2 things. Leicester's achievements were incredible but ultimately, the wage bill, the most important predictor of success, was much closer between Leicester and Spurs than it is to Spurs and the other top 5. It was a reply mostly to the sarcastic Mighty Leicester. And it was also a point that we are over achieving in the league compared to the financial power of the other 5 clubs.

I never said that Leicester won the league title because of our wage bill.

I'd say Chelsea's squad is better than ours, yes and was better than ours for the past 3-4 seasons as well. Liverpool I'd say probably we have a better squad yes. Not by a huge amount though.

 

[africanspur]

Don't need to be a Nostradamus to see that he is a bottler, the season Leicester won the league, the LC final you mentioned, last season's FA cup semis, the Juventus game yesterday, he bottles so many big games where actual trophy is on the line.

You didn't even know until a few minutes ago that he had even reached that final?

Do you think pretty much every loss is a bottle job then?

I just think there's absolutely no nuance whatsoever to a lot of this conversation. Any loss is a bottle job.

If Kane scores that header at the end and we go on to win, are Higuain and Juve bottlers? If Poch won that LC final against a superior Chelsea team in his 1st season, is he suddenly no longer a bottler and ready for an elite job?

Perhaps Spurs would be better served bringing back AVB or Ramos or hiring Martinez or Laudrup or Redknapp for their cup wins?

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

Can’t but feel sad and sorry for people who are turning head over heals to defend Poch at all costs when his failures are pretty evident as it relates to big games / trophies.

As far as I’m concerned, he’s yet to walk the walk.

 

[K2K]

The "you need to win something" to be a good coach must be the new dumb thing to say. So basically there are about seven good coaches across England, Spain, France, Italy and Germany and everybody else is trash. If Eddie Howe doesn´t win a title with Bournemouth he´s not a good coach. If Poch wins the Cockatoo Cup, he´s suddenly a great coach.

No one ever said that.

What people have been saying is that you need to win something to be an elite coach. In fact, you need to win more than just something for that level.

 

[el3mel]

I'm not repeating any mistake. I'm not talking about ancient history. I'm talking about very recent history and the fact that BVB are the 2nd biggest, richest and most successful club in Germany. We are talking about the 6th most successful and richest club in the UK. So if we're comparing to other clubs, then Torino, FC Nuremberg and Vitoria de Setubal. I probably don't have to tell you that none of those have won the league recently (or indeed any trophy recently).

Again at the moment Klopp got their job they were far from being considered the second biggest team in Germany on the pitch. They were in the past, not when he got their job.

Actually, no I didn't. I didn't say the wage bill was the reason that Leicester won the league and we didn't, that would be stupid considering their wage bill is still lower than ours. I was saying 2 things. Leicester's achievements were incredible but ultimately, the wage bill, the most important predictor of success, was much closer between Leicester and Spurs than it is to Spurs and the other top 5. It was a reply mostly to the sarcastic Mighty Leicester. And it was also a point that we are over achieving in the league compared to the financial power of the other 5 clubs.

I never said that Leicester won the league title because of our wage bill.

I actually don't understand your wage bill part anymore. If the wage bill was similar for both Leicester and Spurs, and wage bill is the most predictor for success, and Leicester won the league this season, what prevented Spurs from winning it this season themselves then, considering they had better team than Leicester already ?

I'd say Chelsea's squad is better than ours, yes and was better than ours for the past 3-4 seasons as well. Liverpool I'd say probably we have a better squad yes. Not by a huge amount though.

How many Chelsea players will get into the current Spurs team ?

 

[Sky1981]

Can’t but feel sad and sorry for people who are turning head over heals to defend Poch at all costs when his failures are pretty evident as it relates to big games / trophies.

As far as I’m concerned, he’s yet to walk the walk.

It's pretty normal if they're hotspur fans. But most of the time it comes from United supporters.

 

[Varun]

Don't need to be a Nostradamus to see that he is a bottler, the season Leicester won the league, the LC final you mentioned, last season's FA cup semis, the Juventus game yesterday, he bottles so many big games where actual trophy is on the line.

You need to contribute in a much better way than this.

 

[Lash]

Anyone think this result may turn his head if an offer comes in? Doesn't really have a plan B if it's going wrong - felt like it took an age to get Llorente on and get balls in the box.

 

[Sky1981]

Anyone think this result may turn his head if an offer comes in? Doesn't really have a plan B if it's going wrong - felt like it took an age to get Llorente on and get balls in the box.

I dont think he has the drive to take the poisoned chalice jobs of madrid, barca, chelsea, bayern type of job.

He's probably enjoying his time at spurs where expectations are minimal and the job is his to lose.

 

[Lash]

I dont think he has the drive to take the poisoned chalice jobs of madrid, barca, chelsea, bayern type of job.

He's probably enjoying his time at spurs where expectations are minimal and the job is his to lose.

Yeah, that is true.

 

[breakout67]

So let me get this straight, because Spurs are not a winning club, this means that no matter whatever happens they can't be expected to win trophies? So they are basically always a losing club then?

What does Spurs having a bad team 10,20,30 years ago have to do with them now?

 

[Bepi]

he really said it was agnelli & marotta pressure on the ref good enough for napoli or inter already

 

[Sky1981]

So let me get this straight, because Spurs are not a winning club, this means that no matter whatever happens they can't be expected to win trophies? So they are basically always a losing club then?

What does Spurs having a bad team 10,20,30 years ago have to do with them now?

The way i see it he belittles hotspur to big up pochetinno...and he supposed to support Tottenham...

 

[piesel]

he really said it was agnelli & marotta pressure on the ref good enough for napoli or inter already

A real misery: the penalty on Costa, the BIG Kane offside, the Sandro yellow card..........the man should accept that he and his boys fecked the match and that life goes on..........

 

[RedSky]

So let me get this straight, because Spurs are not a winning club, this means that no matter whatever happens they can't be expected to win trophies? So they are basically always a losing club then?

What does Spurs having a bad team 10,20,30 years ago have to do with them now?

It does highlight their status as a club and their general inexperience in league challenges and cup runs. It also highlights the expectations of their fan base.

Tottenham shouldn't have the same expectations as United or City because they're still a tier or two below us. This point has been argued to death though, it's this reality bubble that some of our fans live in when all that matters is trophies and nothing else. In the real world however clubs set milestones and have realistic expectations, Spurs are one of those clubs currently. That doesn't mean they'll remain that kind of club, I actually think with their new Stadium and finances that go with it they should be realistically expect to win trophies on a fairly regular basis. But no doubt they'll need to pay off the loans before they can actually reap the rewards of a new modern stadium.

As for Pochettino, I still think he'll be at Tottenham next season and I do think they'll win the FA Cup this season.

 

[::sonny::]

 

[africanspur]

The way i see it he belittles hotspur to big up pochetinno...and he supposed to support Tottenham...

How and where have I belittled Tottenham?

Do I need to be an unrealistic fan, thinking that we should be beating all before us to be a real fan?

Should I support my team without appreciation of the context that we operate in, support without patience for the best manager we've had for a few decades so that I can be a better fan?

What exactly do you think we need to be doing to not belittle Tottenham?

So let me get this straight, because Spurs are not a winning club, this means that no matter whatever happens they can't be expected to win trophies? So they are basically always a losing club then?

What does Spurs having a bad team 10,20,30 years ago have to do with them now?

Again, who said this?

However, while we're on this, does this work both ways? When opposition fans say we're bottlers or are being 'spursy', a reputation garnered over more than a few years, is that also irrelevant?

 

[haram]

I don't know how this discussion is still going on. If you cant accept that at the top level you need to win you're just in denial.

 

[africanspur]

I don't know how this discussion is still going on. If you cant accept that at the top level you need to win you're just in denial.

Again, who has said this? What is it with internet discussions and black and white viewpoints and strawmen?

Notwithstanding the fact that I have already said that we are not an elite team, when have I said that you can generally be at the top level without winning trophies?

 

[haram]

Again, who has said this? What is it with internet discussions and black and white viewpoints and strawmen?

Notwithstanding the fact that I have already said that we are not an elite team, when have I said that you can generally be at the top level without winning trophies?

Everyone accepts Poch is a good manager. He isn't a top one yet, that's all.

 

[africanspur]

Again at the moment Klopp got their job they were far from being considered the second biggest team in Germany on the pitch. They were in the past, not when he got their job.



I actually don't understand your wage bill part anymore. If the wage bill was similar for both Leicester and Spurs, and wage bill is the most predictor for success, and Leicester won the league this season, what prevented Spurs from winning it this season themselves then, considering they had better team than Leicester already ?



How many Chelsea players will get into the current Spurs team ?

Ok I think we're going round in circles wrt the Germany discussion, I completely accept that Dortmund were not a top team when Klopp arrived. I was making a separate point but like I said, I'll just leave it there.

The wage bill part is simple. We are competing well above our level if you look at wages. That is a general point regarding wages and the job Poch is doing. What prevented Spurs from winning the title that season? Many different factors. A young, inexperienced manager, a young, inexperienced squad, fighting a team that had to play only once a week for most of the season, a general feeling of the whole league willing them on and most importantly, because they were just better than us that season.


4 as dead certs. Azpi, Alonso, Kante and Hazard. Courtois and Lloris would be a toss up though I reckon most neutrals would go for Courtois. The current rb options at both clubs are much of a muchness. A fit Dembele would probably be the other cm, though again, I hardly think it would be unreasonable to go for Fabregas. I'd probably go for our 2 Belgians at cb but again Luiz was so important in the 3-5-2 and the title win last season so maybe you sacrifice one for the special skillset he brings.

Courtois

Moses/Tripper

Azpi
Vertonghen
Alderweirald

Alonso

Kante
Fabregas/Dembele

Hazard
Eriksen

Kane

The only dead cert from us is Kane imo and I guess Eriksen, though again I could see an argument for Willian and what he brings. One of the Belgians at cb.

They also have a better squad (imo). And had no European football last season, a pretty unique situation as far as I can remember.

 

[africanspur]

Everyone accepts Poch is a good manager. He isn't a top one yet, that's all.

Yep well fair enough, I would agree with that. Different managers have different skillsets and can be used for different roles. If I was a owner of a club and my aim was to start winning trophies immediately, Poch wouldn't necessarily be my 1st choice. That doesn't mean if you gave him the PSG or Bayern or Man Utd job, he wouldn't be able to do it but you simply can't know that in the way that you can for Mourinho or Pep.

 

[Denis79]

Everyone accepts Poch is a good manager. He isn't a top one yet, that's all.

Pretty much how I feel aswell, Poch has done a good job considering his transfer and wage budget, they are improving a little bit every season but he won't be considered a great manager until he wins a couple of silverware. The question is if he can do it with Spurs? I'm sure he'll have a very good career though.

 

[el3mel]

Ok I think we're going round in circles wrt the Germany discussion, I completely accept that Dortmund were not a top team when Klopp arrived. I was making a separate point but like I said, I'll just leave it there.

The wage bill part is simple. We are competing well above our level if you look at wages. That is a general point regarding wages and the job Poch is doing. What prevented Spurs from winning the title that season? Many different factors. A young, inexperienced manager, a young, inexperienced squad, fighting a team that had to play only once a week for most of the season, a general feeling of the whole league willing them on and most importantly, because they were just better than us that season.

The wage bill thing is good and all but it's applicable for the current season our the last season. No one will downplay you finishing second last season for example, but in this Leicester season it can't be used as an excuse as I mentioned earlier. Also the wage bill won't turn the likes of Kane, Alli and Eriksen to average players. Spurs squad is on of the best in the league and have several players that top clubs in Europe droll over, so it's fair to expect more from this team than the likes of Leicester. You can't talk about inexperience in this season for obvious reasons too, you weren't challenging any of the big guns for the title and you were eliminated from Europe League from round of 16 ( that was in March ). Think Spurs should have done more this season tbh but you believe otherwise, fair enough.

4 as dead certs. Azpi, Alonso, Kante and Hazard. Courtois and Lloris would be a toss up though I reckon most neutrals would go for Courtois. The current rb options at both clubs are much of a muchness. A fit Dembele would probably be the other cm, though again, I hardly think it would be unreasonable to go for Fabregas. I'd probably go for our 2 Belgians at cb but again Luiz was so important in the 3-5-2 and the title win last season so maybe you sacrifice one for the special skillset he brings.

Courtois

Moses/Tripper

Azpi
Vertonghen
Alderweirald

Alonso

Kante
Fabregas/Dembele

Hazard
Eriksen

Kane

Moses is terrible and Fabre is well past it especially in midfield 2. The rest of choices are fair enough, but they indicate you have better defense and far better attack than them.

 

[Traub]

There will always be question marks around any manager who doesn't win trophies consistently. IMO, given the resources at Spurs, Poch doesn't have the environment to win any major trophy there (sorry but FA Cup wouldn't really count as a major trophy - Arsenal constantly win it). In my mind, he needs to move to a big European team in order to reach the next level.

 

[breakout67]

Again, who said this?

However, while we're on this, does this work both ways? When opposition fans say we're bottlers or are being 'spursy', a reputation garnered over more than a few years, is that also irrelevant?

What else is the point of bringing up the history of Spurs? It's just an excuse that has little to no relevance to what Spurs are doing in recent years. They are a team that have been growing under Pochettino's guidance, and are in my opinion good enough to compete for honours.

That 'Spursy' stuff is banter, Harry Kane is a world class striker, doesn't matter if he is at Spurs or not. The same can be said for a few other players in the team.

Multiple times, I have seen Spurs play very well and take the lead, only to capitulate in a short space of time. It's a recurring theme under Pochettino. On the contrary, top managers are very good at closing out games, and make tactical changes when behind to change the game. Aleggri brought on Lichsteiner and Asamoah to change the game, these aren't heavy hitters he brought on, but he saw that the qualities they had could do something. Then when they were ahead they changed their shape and parked the bus.

Juventus played 3 different tactical plans in a single game; they were adapting to the situation. Spurs seem to decide a gameplan at the beginning of the game, and just stick to it and hope for the best.

 

[Adisa]

Came out with some rubbish about Spurs needs to learn to use dark arts.
His players dive all over the place.

 

[africanspur]

What else is the point of bringing up the history of Spurs? It's just an excuse that has little to no relevance to what Spurs are doing in recent years. They are a team that have been growing under Pochettino's guidance, and are in my opinion good enough to compete for honours.

That 'Spursy' stuff is banter, Harry Kane is a world class striker, doesn't matter if he is at Spurs or not. The same can be said for a few other players in the team.

Multiple times, I have seen Spurs play very well and take the lead, only to capitulate in a short space of time. It's a recurring theme under Pochettino. On the contrary, top managers are very good at closing out games, and make tactical changes when behind to change the game. Aleggri brought on Lichsteiner and Asamoah to change the game, these aren't heavy hitters he brought on, but he saw that the qualities they had could do something. Then when they were ahead they changed their shape and parked the bus.

Juventus played 3 different tactical plans in a single game; they were adapting to the situation. Spurs seem to decide a gameplan at the beginning of the game, and just stick to it and hope for the best.

I brought up the history of Spurs in reply to a poster who mentioned how difficult it was to take over the AC Milan job because they hadn't won the league for 7 years. I subsequently pointed out that not only had that AC Milan team won a CL 4 years prior to that but we hadn't won the league in over 50 years.

And then made a side point that we are not a side that has been winning trophies recently and that can take time to change.

Unless of course, the king of Saudi the club takes over and then I'm sure we'll suddenly develop both a winning mentality and the ability to pick up a lot more trophies.

I'm not sure the stats bear that out tbh. We've taken the lead 121 times over the almost 4 seasons Poch has been manager. Of those, we've lost 5 and drawn 23. If you're looking at the trend, that has improved drastically from the 1st 2 seasons and in the last 2 seasons, we've taken the lead 58 times, drawn 4 times (vs Leicester, Gent, Burnley and Madrid) and lost 3 times (Chelsea, Juve, West Ham this season in the league cup).

Poch's subs are, for me anyway, a problem and I've thought that for a while. He needs to be more proactive with the use of subs imo.

 

[africanspur]

The wage bill thing is good and all but it's applicable for the current season our the last season. No one will downplay you finishing second last season for example, but in this Leicester season it can't be used as an excuse as I mentioned earlier. Also the wage bill won't turn the likes of Kane, Alli and Eriksen to average players. Spurs squad is on of the best in the league and have several players that top clubs in Europe droll over, so it's fair to expect more from this team than the likes of Leicester. You can't talk about inexperience in this season for obvious reasons too, you weren't challenging any of the big guns for the title and you were eliminated from Europe League from round of 16 ( that was in March ). Think Spurs should have done more this season tbh but you believe otherwise, fair enough.



Moses is terrible and Fabre is well past it especially in midfield 2. The rest of choices are fair enough, but they indicate you have better defense and far better attack than them.

Do you mean we should have done more this season in terms of the league or CL?

Moses may be terrible but I'm sure you've seen some of the utter trash that Aurier has been kind enough to serve up so far this season. I like Tripper but he's hardly a top class RB either. We may have a better attack than them but I don't personally agree we have a better defence tbh.

 

[buckooo1978]

it's a game of small margins

had Spurs scored another in the first half would we be having this conversation

football shouldn't be binary - if he loses he's shit, if he wins he's a god

truth is he went toe to toe with Juve who've more Champions League experience and know how that any Premier League team... 3 finals in last few years I think? they weren't savvy enough to beat Juve

I remember Fergie struggling for years in the Champions League before we won it - let's not be too hard on Poch

 

[Guy Incognito]

Someone on Twitter made a good point about Kane's goalscoring record and Pochettino's failure to use that to properly push for the title.

When you think Rodgers was a slip and a Pulis away from winning the title for Liverpool, and how everyone downplayed it because his tactics were basically Suarez, it's a moot point. That Liverpool side weren't a better all-round team than the one Spurs have now.

 

[breakout67]

I brought up the history of Spurs in reply to a poster who mentioned how difficult it was to take over the AC Milan job because they hadn't won the league for 7 years. I subsequently pointed out that not only had that AC Milan team won a CL 4 years prior to that but we hadn't won the league in over 50 years.

And then made a side point that we are not a side that has been winning trophies recently and that can take time to change.

Unless of course, the king of Saudi the club takes over and then I'm sure we'll suddenly develop both a winning mentality and the ability to pick up a lot more trophies.

I'm not sure the stats bear that out tbh. We've taken the lead 121 times over the almost 4 seasons Poch has been manager. Of those, we've lost 5 and drawn 23. If you're looking at the trend, that has improved drastically from the 1st 2 seasons and in the last 2 seasons, we've taken the lead 58 times, drawn 4 times (vs Leicester, Gent, Burnley and Madrid) and lost 3 times (Chelsea, Juve, West Ham this season in the league cup).

Poch's subs are, for me anyway, a problem and I've thought that for a while. He needs to be more proactive with the use of subs imo.

Ok, I understand why you brought up Spurs' History, fair enough.

But when you look at managers like Conte, Mourinho, Guardiola, they are almost perfect in protecting leads. Going 1-0 down to them is almost a surefire way to lose the game. As an example, Chelsea dropped points for the first time this season under Conte after taking the lead (when they lost to United at Old Trafford). Mourinho and Guardiola also have ridiculously clean records when going 1-0 up and winning the game.

Spurs under Poch aren't a surefire bet for capitalizing on a lead, and I would say some of the blame lies with the manager.

 

[el3mel]

Do you mean we should have done more this season in terms of the league or CL?

Moses may be terrible but I'm sure you've seen some of the utter trash that Aurier has been kind enough to serve up so far this season. I like Tripper but he's hardly a top class RB either. We may have a better attack than them but I don't personally agree we have a better defence tbh.

I was talking about Leicester season.

Moses is so uni-dimensional and terrible. Your defense is definitely better individually and as a unit IMO. Christensen is their only defender that impressed me so far this season.

 

[africanspur]

Ok, I understand why you brought up Spurs' History, fair enough.

But when you look at managers like Conte, Mourinho, Guardiola, they are almost perfect in protecting leads. Going 1-0 down to them is almost a surefire way to lose the game. As an example, Chelsea dropped points for the first time this season under Conte after taking the lead (when they lost to United at Old Trafford). Mourinho and Guardiola also have ridiculously clean records when going 1-0 up and winning the game.

Spurs under Poch aren't a surefire bet for capitalizing on a lead, and I would say some of the blame lies with the manager.

That's fair enough, Poch's use of subs is a personal criticism of mine towards him.

However, I think protecting the lead is maybe an impression thing. I know it isn't exactly what you meant but I just crunched some numbers (yes I am trying to put off some work today ) about the different clubs going on to win when they score the 1st goal. I've done it over the past 2 seasons when all 4 of them have been there.

In terms of number of games the different clubs have scored 1st, in all competitions, followed by the number of those games they ended up winning

Spurs: 58/51
Man Utd: 66/58
Man City : 67/59
Chelsea: 65/55

Percentages of matches won:

Spurs: 87.9%
Man Utd: 87.9%
Man City: 88.1%
Chelsea: 84.6%

There's basically no difference between the clubs at all.

What I will say is that Man Utd have been incredible at protecting leads this season. Taken the lead in 25 games, dropped points in none of them. Over the 2 seasons, you drew a shit load last season after taking the lead but didn't lose any of them either. They're all draws.

Anyway, I agree we need to be more ruthless, need to gain some more experience, that winning trait etc etc but I think all in all, we've been reasonable compared to the other clubs when its come to holding onto leads.

 

[breakout67]

That's fair enough, Poch's use of subs is a personal criticism of mine towards him.

However, I think protecting the lead is maybe an impression thing. I know it isn't exactly what you meant but I just crunched some numbers (yes I am trying to put off some work today ) about the different clubs going on to win when they score the 1st goal. I've done it over the past 2 seasons when all 4 of them have been there.

In terms of number of games the different clubs have scored 1st, in all competitions, followed by the number of those games they ended up winning

Spurs: 58/51
Man Utd: 66/58
Man City : 67/59
Chelsea: 65/55

Percentages of matches won:

Spurs: 87.9%
Man Utd: 87.9%
Man City: 88.1%
Chelsea: 84.6%

There's basically no difference between the clubs at all.

What I will say is that Man Utd have been incredible at protecting leads this season. Taken the lead in 25 games, dropped points in none of them. Over the 2 seasons, you drew a shit load last season after taking the lead but didn't lose any of them either. They're all draws.

Anyway, I agree we need to be more ruthless, need to gain some more experience, that winning trait etc etc but I think all in all, we've been reasonable compared to the other clubs when its come to holding onto leads.

You've made a fair point. Pochettino has gotten this Spurs team to a high level of consistency. But they lack that cutting edge to get a run together.

Another example is that Spurs before City went on this crazy run, had the highest points per game than any other team under Pochettino. But they could never turn that into title winning form. Spurs have been slow starters under Poch and strong finishers, which is in contrast to City and Utd this season, I don't know why it is the case but it's something that Spurs can improve on.

 

[Revan]

Arsenal and Chelsea have been the dominant London clubs in the Premier League since it began. Spurs today are a better side than both, despite being also rans for the entirety of the PL's existence. They haven't won anything but they never won anything. To get these performance levels out of a club with those resources is impressive to me.

They've dismantled top sides in the PL and Europe. They're clearly far better than that Redknapp team. They finished 8th or 6th when he was appointed. I don't get the hate for the man, unless it's directly to do with certain Spurs posters here, in which case I can understand it a little bit.

Since Pochettino arrived at Spurs, Chelsea have won the league twice, while Arsenal have won FA Cup twice.

Spurs aren't better than them, especially mot better than Chelsea.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Since Pochettino arrived at Spurs, Chelsea have won the league twice, while Arsenal have won FA Cup twice.

Spurs aren't better than them, especially mot better than Chelsea.

This season.