A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

[el3mel]

Because winning in Germany generally means you have to be better than Bayern. There are too many good sides in England, I'd say it's obvious. Bayern are obviously going to have some poor seasons, that's how Werder, Stuttgart and Wolfsburg won their most recent titles. In England, three or four contenders have to be poor in order for non-contender to have a chance. A little bit too much.

And let's take out Klopp for a second, I have also mentioned Allegri and Conte. What they achieved before landing two top jobs in Italy is not even close to what anyone would consider good enough for managers who could soon become part of the elite.

Top clubs are able to adress what kind of manager they need, and also to evaluate manager's potential.

I am pretty sure Pochettino will be successful after Tottenham, but regardless of that, I don't think it's fair to claim he's overrated just because of the fact he hasn't won with Tottenham.

Claudio Ranieri has won title with Leicester in a one-off season, he surely isn't better manager than Pochettino just because he made that.

Well, when English big guns had a terrible season together, with Chelsea finishing 10th, Liverpool finishing 8th, us finishing 5th and City finishing 4th, guess what, Spurs failed to win the league from the mighty Leicester City and ended up finishing 3rd in a 2 horse races. That doesn't help your first point.

You realize that no one is saying he's destined to fail with his next big club, right ? All we're saying is till he wins something or moves to a big club and win trophies, question marks will always be flying around him and rightly so. Allegri, Conte, Zidane and Pep all had question marks around them from the start, they didn't earn it easy, and they didn't get full trust from anyone. Why is Poch supposed to get full trust with showing what he has unlike these other managers ?

When he moves to a big club and has more resources, the expectations will be higher and he'll no more get excuses or a pass when he loses a trophy or even draws a game in the league. Whether he'll handle this or not will define his ability to become an elite manager, and till it happens question marks will remain around him like any manager else.

 

[breakout67]

The comparison to Ranieri is hilarious because Chelsea were basically on the same level as Spurs when Ranieri was the manager, and he got them to two top 4 finishes in a row.

Ranieri existed before Leicester City, and was a decent coach. Even won a few cups in his early days.

 

[Bosnian_fan]

Well, when English big guns had a terrible season together, with Chelsea finishing 10th, Liverpool finishing 8th, us finishing 5th and City finishing 4th, guess what, Spurs failed to win the league from the mighty Leicester City and ended up finishing 3rd in a 2 horse races. That doesn't help your first point.

You realize that no one is saying he's destined to fail with his next big club, right ? All we're saying is till he wins something or moves to a big club and win trophies, question marks will always be flying around him and rightly so. Allegri, Conte, Zidane and Pep all had question marks around them from the start, they didn't earn it easy, and they didn't get full trust from anyone. Why is Poch supposed to get full trust with showing what he has unlike these other managers ?

When he moves to a big club and has more resources, the expectations will be higher and he'll no more get excuses or a pass when he loses a trophy or even draws a game in the league. Whether he'll handle this or not will define his ability to become an elite manager, and till it happens question marks will remain around him like any manager else.

I won't disagree with anything that you've said there. It's all pretty well summed up. As for 2015/2016 season, I do agree that he's underachieved there, he could have had it his way pretty easily back then.

It may be just me, but I got a sense that this topic is generally going in direction of claiming that Pochettino is a fraud waiting to be exposed.

I do believe that Pochettino is one of the up and coming managers who could define football for the next decade, but I guess it's not any more relevant than the opinions of others who claim otherwise. Only time will tell who is right.

 

[VancouverUtdFan]

Now all you need to add is a picture of United’s trophy room or Mourinho’s trophies.

 

[Bosnian_fan]

The comparison to Ranieri is hilarious because Chelsea were basically on the same level as Spurs when Ranieri was the manager, and he got them to two top 4 finishes in a row.

Ranieri existed before Leicester City, and was a decent coach. Even won a few cups in his early days.

But he also existed before and after Chelsea, and apart from his Copa del Rey with Valencia, Leicester title and his Roma's sad collapse in 2009/2010, he hardly set the world alight.

And I think achieving top four today is bigger achievement for any manager than it was 15 years ago.

 

[Theonas]

As much as I don't want to take any credits away from Poch, I think there is something wrong with not winning one or two trophies in his career by now especially as Spurs manager. This doesn't mean he is not good because he is and it also doesn't mean that a manager is poor if he doesn't win trophies. But within the context in which Poch is debated (often compared with Klopp, Jose, etc), surely, silverware becomes important. And let's be frank, the Spurs team he has built (kidos to him) is well capable of winning something. The problem has been Poch's game management at crucial times. It's something he needs to improve on and I believe he can. In the mean time, I think he still has a lot to prove to earn being compared to the great managers in the game.

I don't disagree with anything here. Especially the part about his game management. He is seriously lacking in that department and I don't think it is a coincidence what happened to them against Chelsea in the FA Cup, West Ham in the LC and Juventus in the CL. It is not a one off mishap, there is a pattern there.

When I wrote that he can be close to Pep's level. What I meant is that he clearly has it in him. His strengths are rare and flaws are easier to mask or improve on if he was at a bigger, richer club. I don't just mean he can be winning trophies, I mean he can be the type of manager that can build a great team, a team that play pro active football and dominate its opponents playing the alpha team. For that, you need a very rare combination of strengths and I think he is one of the very few who have them. His shortcomings in big decisive games and their game management which is why I think he did not win anything is something that is relatively easier to fix with more experience and a club with more history, resources and or profile.

 

[Theonas]

I am sometimes bewildered at how narrow-minded some people seem to be. When was the last time Tottenham won any trophy before Pochettino? Wasn't it a Juande Ramos fluke League cup win in 2008 or so? Other than that, absolutely nothing.

The fact that he's made them competitive is definitely something. He's made Tottenham one of the clubs that could actually win something, and that should surely count. Jurgen Klopp had managed Mainz through seven seasons, getting them from Bundesliga 2 to Bundesliga, than to Europe, and then getting relegated without being able to take them back to Bundesliga the very next season.

That's when he resigned, but Dortmund didn't despair when hiring them. By the logic present here, he should have never been given chance to manage Dortmund, and he's gotten club back to the position of the German powerhouse.

Zidane and Guardiola made nothing of a real note before getting chance to manage two of the possibly biggest clubs in the world.

Hell, Allegri came to Milan after managing Cagliari. In his first season he was ninth with Cagliari, only to be sacked in the second season with Cagliari in 12th place. First season with Milan, and he won the Scudetto. Conte only won Serie B before landing Juventus job.

Of course, some of the managers are proven to be incapable of managing at the highest level after overachieving with smaller clubs, but isn't it the same with the players?

Movement of managers should be and mostly is the same as movement of players. Whoever stands out in club with lower reputation should logically get the chance to prove himself in bigger club.

I believe Pochettino has overachieved in Tottenham speaking in broader terms, and as such will be given chance to manage at a higher level. And let's not portray Tottenham as the highest level of football. Because regardless of progress he's made with the club, they are not elite club and probably won't be, whoever is in charge.

Great post. The only part I am not sure about is what I highlighted. The reason is I think it's not a simple matter of doing well at a smaller club. I think one has to look at what areas did said manager do well at? what is he specifically good at? and are those the skills that if married with x club resources and profile will complement each other.

This is why I feel for example someone like Allardyce or Koeman don't really give the confidence of leading great clubs despite their success. The things they succeeded with and the skills they showed are simply not as needed at big clubs. They have nothing to suggest that they possess the required tactical and technical nous required at a team that will have to and/or want to take charge and be dominant in the majority of their games. In short, doing well is too vague of a term to judge when what is needed a deeper look at profile and specifics.

 

[breakout67]

But he also existed before and after Chelsea, and apart from his Copa del Rey with Valencia, Leicester title and his Roma's sad collapse in 2009/2010, he hardly set the world alight.

And I think achieving top four today is bigger achievement for any manager than it was 15 years ago.

He also won the Coppa Italia when Italian football was very good. Pochettino hasn't 'set the world alight' and hasn't won anything. So basically you're downplaying Ranieri and bigging up Pochettino just because you like him.

The question is, would Pochettino have won the league with that Leicester team? I'd say definitely not because they don't have the right players or qualities for his preferred system (even if they did, his system hasn't shown the ability to win silverware). The downplaying of Ranieri's role in that title win is something I can't agree with, he deserves massive credit for it, it wasn't a 'freak', it was good coaching by him.

 

[Bepi]

Adding that insider wisdom in Turin is Simone Inzaghi from Lazio and Pochettino would be the ideal coach for a steady rebuild at Juve after Allegri goes. Both are decent persons, clearly on the up as professionals and ready to work at higher level... it also helps both seem reciprocate the interest, so we will see.

 

[BBRBB]

He's one of the main names dropped to replace Emery next season in Paris. I'm not completely sold.

 

[Bosnian_fan]

He also won the Coppa Italia when Italian football was very good. Pochettino hasn't 'set the world alight' and hasn't won anything. So basically you're downplaying Ranieri and bigging up Pochettino just because you like him.

The question is, would Pochettino have won the league with that Leicester team? I'd say definitely not because they don't have the right players or qualities for his preferred system (even if they did, his system hasn't shown the ability to win silverware). The downplaying of Ranieri's role in that title win is something I can't agree with, he deserves massive credit for it, it wasn't a 'freak', it was good coaching by him.

I may have failed to express myself adequately. I'm not looking to downplay Ranieri's achievement, it was amazing and it will be remembered as the biggest overachievement in history. Ranieri was probably the only one who could have won that title with Leicester, as I have my doubts Guardiola, Mourinho or anyone else would have managed to do it.

What I do think though is that Pochettino has potential to become much better manager than Ranieri and win much more. And that's pretty much what I'm trying to say the whole time

Besides, I don't like Pochettino more than Ranieri. Actually, I don't see how could anyone dislike Claudio, he is simply incredible person and his career story is amazing. Leicester title quite the icing on the cake.

 

[breakout67]

I may have failed to express myself adequately. I'm not looking to downplay Ranieri's achievement, it was amazing and it will be remembered as the biggest overachievement in history. Ranieri was probably the only one who could have won that title with Leicester, as I have my doubts Guardiola, Mourinho or anyone else would have managed to do it.

What I do think though is that Pochettino has potential to become much better manager than Ranieri and win much more. And that's pretty much what I'm trying to say the whole time

Besides, I don't like Pochettino more than Ranieri. Actually, I don't see how could anyone dislike Claudio, he is simply incredible person and his career story is amazing. Leicester title quite the icing on the cake.

Pochettino has the potential to be a fantastic manager. But many managers perform well at smaller clubs but cannot handle the pressure at bigger clubs. David Moyes was quite a good manager at Everton, he even got them in to the top 4. But he was out of his depth at United.

What I see at Spurs are a group of players that have developed under him, they see him as a leader and are grateful for what he has done to their careers. If he moves to a big club, he might have to buy a big player who owes him nothing and will want to be impressed by him, can he handle the environment in these situations, I don't know.

I am all for Pochettino going to a big club, but not over Jose Mourinho who is one of the best managers in the modern game.

 

[Ramshock]

People need to calm down because the man is obviously a good coach and his teams have been the best Spurs teams in a long time. Just because Tottenham lost to a very experienced Juve team doesn't meant Poch is over rated. The man clearly knows how to build a good team and a team that plays well. In my mind he gets abuse because of the times we are in where success is demanded instantly. He is clearly progressing that club and team and I think he will either get them over the hump and win them trophies or he will be snapped up by a bigger club. I back Jose but if he doesnt work out I want us to go for Pochettino

 

[ti vu]

@Bosnian_fan
Klopp won back to back titles with Dortmund. Not one off.

Milan, Juventus were not fighting for title when the jobs were given to Allegri and Conte. Poch is being touted around ready for clubs that ready to win trophies with the cutting edge provided by the head coach. Allegri displayed great tactical work which being acknowledged as coach of the year in Italy at the time. He ended Inter title winning streak. Conte took 7th place Juventus and turned their fortune. They're like that yet, you hardly heard about them going to Madrid, Bayern as those club aim to for the top trophies every year.

If Poch likes the idea of going to Milan or Inter now to thwart Juventus, then I don't see any point to argue. Thing is the clubs Poch is hyped to take over is the ones who fight for not only title but also CL trophy. How is that the same? Tottenham is at the level (if not higher) of Juventus and Milan back then.

 

[AR87]

Poch is an excellent manager in alot of ways, but the major issues he has are a certain level of naivety in certain situations and an inability to impact a game tactically with his substitutions. The former is subjective and is something I'd expect to continue to diminish over time, the latter is more up in the air.

 

[africanspur]

Well, when English big guns had a terrible season together, with Chelsea finishing 10th, Liverpool finishing 8th, us finishing 5th and City finishing 4th, guess what, Spurs failed to win the league from the mighty Leicester City and ended up finishing 3rd in a 2 horse races. That doesn't help your first point.

You realize that no one is saying he's destined to fail with his next big club, right ? All we're saying is till he wins something or moves to a big club and win trophies, question marks will always be flying around him and rightly so. Allegri, Conte, Zidane and Pep all had question marks around them from the start, they didn't earn it easy, and they didn't get full trust from anyone. Why is Poch supposed to get full trust with showing what he has unlike these other managers ?

When he moves to a big club and has more resources, the expectations will be higher and he'll no more get excuses or a pass when he loses a trophy or even draws a game in the league. Whether he'll handle this or not will define his ability to become an elite manager, and till it happens question marks will remain around him like any manager else.

With all due respect, the first part is honestly such nonsense. If something is repeated often enough, it becomes fact. At the halfway point of the season, it was Arsenal who were top of the league, with 39 points. Followed by Leicester. Followed by Man City. The Spurs. We were only a point closer to Arsenal than we were above Man Utd and Liverpool. Gameweek 21, we're 7 points behind Arsenal (still 1st) and Leicester. At this point, we're as close to Stoke in 7th as we are to Man City in 3rd. We only even finally pop up in 2nd 4 weeks later. At no point were we 1st all season.

Jesus christ, considering what is said about us from that season, god only knows what would have been said if we'd actually been 1st at any point in this apparent 2 horse race.

We undoubtedly missed a chance that season but it came a season too early for us unfortunately. If that general slump had happened a season later, we'd have won the league. In fact, had Chelsea not had a pretty unique season featuring no European football at all, maybe we'd have had a better chance last season too. Oh well.

As an aside. The 'mighty Leicester' have a wage bill which is much closer to ours than ours is to any of the other 'top 6' clubs. 90 million vs 120 million vs 200 million for the next team, which is Liverpool).

 

[africanspur]

@Bosnian_fan
Klopp won back to back titles with Dortmund. Not one off.

Milan, Juventus were not fighting for title when the jobs were given to Allegri and Conte. Poch is being touted around ready for clubs that ready to win trophies with the cutting edge provided by the head coach. Allegri displayed great tactical work which being acknowledged as coach of the year in Italy at the time. He ended Inter title winning streak. Conte took 7th place Juventus and turned their fortune. They're like that yet, you hardly heard about them going to Madrid, Bayern as those club aim to for the top trophies every year.

If Poch likes the idea of going to Milan or Inter now to thwart Juventus, then I don't see any point to argue. Thing is the clubs Poch is hyped to take over is the ones who fight for not only title but also CL trophy. How is that the same? Tottenham is at the level (if not higher) of Juventus and Milan back then.

This can't be a serious comment?

 

[ti vu]

This can't be a serious comment?

You can check. Milan hadn't won a Serie A since 2005 until Allegri appointed. They didn't pose a title challenge with Inter dominated the league for year. Even when Mourinho team had to spread their focus for the other competitions (CL is the most important), they still easily won the league.

Juve finished 7th the season before Conte took over. How is that better than Tottenham now?

Edit: just noticed Juventus couldn't get out of EL group stage that same season. How is that not bad of the state Juventus was? And underrated the work Conte did waking up a sleeping giant? People really thought Conte was given a strong Juventus in position ready to push for title?

 

[africanspur]

Which is besides the point. He rebuilt that team from scratch, signed a mix of youngsters and unknowns and took them to incredible heights, turning a number of them into bonafide stars in the process. That is why now like Pep he only gets the moneyed jobs. Which was my point. No one should imagine Pochetino has reached Mourinho's bracket as a manager at any level. Even though he is doing the job well at spurs.


Now your excuses are just getting pitiful. Context would be a some what relevant excuse if an inferior Leicester side hadn't beaten Pochetino and Spurs to a league title. Leicester City left most sides with no excuse as to why they can't win titles with a strong core of players. That is one of the reasons even Wenger is now almost a laughimg stock.

So? My comment was about Mourinho being able to do exactly what Poch is doing and more. Not AVB. Not Juande Ramos.

This all well and good. Yet how is Howe relevant to my post exactly? Let alone this discussion.? Howe is at a club constantly fighting for EPL survival and punching above their weight. Pochetino and Wenger aren't at jobs with such a job description. Howe is comfortably doing a superior job to either of the two, but you'd be crazy to think he'd be superior to either of them in their current roles. The way some keep going on about Pochetino and the United job.


Again. I don't see how this is remotely relevant to what you replied to.

With all due respect, I have neither the time nor the inclination to get involved in a pages long multi quote argument with you.

Needless to say, my point was quite clear. Winning trophies does not automatically make a manager better than another who hasn't. And I made quite clear what I meant by that when I said I would have Poch over Ramos, AVB or Di Matteo. In fact, I'd have Howe over those 3 as well.

And Poch isn't at that job description now, no. We're not fighting relegation (though it wasn't that long ago that Spurs were mostly having mid table seasons where we'd occasionally flirt with relegation). We're punching way above our weight though.

There are valid criticisms of Poch and I've articulated quite a few on here before. I think this thread (and a few others) shows what's become a bit of a problem with the internet and comparisons. I think quite a few fans have taken it a little bit personally that Poch is getting praise while Mourinho can get attacked (whilst winning trophies etc). Kind of similar to how Bale ended up being perceived on here because lots of fans didn't think Nani was getting the credit he deserved.

 

[Sky1981]

I may have failed to express myself adequately. I'm not looking to downplay Ranieri's achievement, it was amazing and it will be remembered as the biggest overachievement in history. Ranieri was probably the only one who could have won that title with Leicester, as I have my doubts Guardiola, Mourinho or anyone else would have managed to do it.

What I do think though is that Pochettino has potential to become much better manager than Ranieri and win much more. And that's pretty much what I'm trying to say the whole time

Besides, I don't like Pochettino more than Ranieri. Actually, I don't see how could anyone dislike Claudio, he is simply incredible person and his career story is amazing. Leicester title quite the icing on the cake.

The bolded part is the key word, nobody disliked poch here, not that I encounter (but many don't like Jose and they're open about it). But at the moment he's only "POTENTIALLY" better than Jose/Pep, and that potential still need a lot of factors going into his favor.

pep / Jose were treated much harsher when they're about the same starting page with Poch, nobody thinks Mourinho / Pep would make it beyond Barcelona/Chelsea.

Poch however is treated much nicer here, he hasn't won shit and already people think he's better than Klopp/Jose/Pep.

 

[haram]

No one is saying he isn't a good manager. At the top level though there is clearly the need to win consistently and he isn't doing that yet with a quality of player good enough to do so. Whether he developed those players or not is irrelevant at this point. Credit for him for developing them, but that's not the point. If we give him this United team does he win anything? If not then there is a problem at the highest level.

He could win the FA Cup and continue his good work though, so I'm not saying he cant do it. Stuff like the loss to Juve and the manner it happened in is worrying though.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

With all due respect, I have neither the time nor the inclination to get involved in a pages long multi quote argument with you.

Needless to say, my point was quite clear. Winning trophies does not automatically make a manager better than another who hasn't. And I made quite clear what I meant by that when I said I would have Poch over Ramos, AVB or Di Matteo. In fact, I'd have Howe over those 3 as well.

And Poch isn't at that job description now, no. We're not fighting relegation (though it wasn't that long ago that Spurs were mostly having mid table seasons where we'd occasionally flirt with relegation). We're punching way above our weight though.

There are valid criticisms of Poch and I've articulated quite a few on here before. I think this thread (and a few others) shows what's become a bit of a problem with the internet and comparisons. I think quite a few fans have taken it a little bit personally that Poch is getting praise while Mourinho can get attacked (whilst winning trophies etc). Kind of similar to how Bale ended up being perceived on here because lots of fans didn't think Nani was getting the credit he deserved.

With all due respect,
I could care less what your 'inclination' is nor what time you possess on your hands. When You quote my post, without quoting others, you should reply to the contents of the said post. You don't start addressing arguments nor positions I never made nor held before or in it. Its not a concept hard to understand and I'm well with in my rights to ask it of you.

 

[africanspur]

With all due respect,
I could care less what you 'feel' like getting into. When You quote my post you reply to the contents of my posts. You dont start addressing arguments I never made. I also don't care what point you believe you made about the AVBs, they have no relevance to anything I said.
In addition your Bale reference is plain spurious. Mourinho in his career already did what Pochetino is doing at Spurs and did it far better. That is why he gets the big jobs with the big cash, period. No argument you bring up can negate that reality which tallies with the initial post you first replied to. The bottom line is Pochetino isnt currently in Mourinho's bracket of manager at all in anything. Maybe One day he might be because he is young and talented.

Ok no worries, have a good day.

 

[el3mel]

With all due respect, the first part is honestly such nonsense. If something is repeated often enough, it becomes fact. At the halfway point of the season, it was Arsenal who were top of the league, with 39 points. Followed by Leicester. Followed by Man City. The Spurs. We were only a point closer to Arsenal than we were above Man Utd and Liverpool. Gameweek 21, we're 7 points behind Arsenal (still 1st) and Leicester. At this point, we're as close to Stoke in 7th as we are to Man City in 3rd. We only even finally pop up in 2nd 4 weeks later. At no point were we 1st all season.

Jesus christ, considering what is said about us from that season, god only knows what would have been said if we'd actually been 1st at any point in this apparent 2 horse race.

We undoubtedly missed a chance that season but it came a season too early for us unfortunately. If that general slump had happened a season later, we'd have won the league. In fact, had Chelsea not had a pretty unique season featuring no European football at all, maybe we'd have had a better chance last season too. Oh well.

As an aside. The 'mighty Leicester' have a wage bill which is much closer to ours than ours is to any of the other 'top 6' clubs. 90 million vs 120 million vs 200 million for the next team, which is Liverpool).

Second half of the season was all Leicester vs Spurs. City were do in first part o the season up till Pstillp announcement then fall off after and slipped away. Arsenal only led it in first half before you g through their usual Feb crisis and slipped away after losing to us. It was mostly later Leicester vs Spurs and Leicester were always at least 5 points ahead of Spurs most of the season. Saying you were never at first slot proves my point, not weakens it. I didn't say you bottled the title, I said if you couldn't compete or win the league due to other top 6 teams so what about this season ?

Sorry but such a chance will never repeat again for Spurs to win the league. All big teams got their problems either from start or Midway in the season and still failed to win the game against mighty Leicester.

I don't know what's the wage bill related like that ? Sorry but that's a useless point. An excuse that being thrown every time without a contest. Fact is Leicester is a relegation fodder team that had a freak season while Spurs were always a consistent top 5-7 finisher in the league. Losing the league against them means you have no business being compared to the other top. If the excuse of not winning the league was because the other top 6 being better then when you got a chance for a go to a title in such a season you also failed.

 

[africanspur]

You can check. Milan hadn't won a Serie A since 2005 until Allegri appointed. They didn't pose a title challenge with Inter dominated the league for year. Even when Mourinho team had to spread their focus for the other competitions (CL is the most important), they still easily won the league.

Juve finished 7th the season before Conte took over. How is that better than Tottenham now?

Edit: just noticed Juventus couldn't get out of EL group stage that same season. How is that not bad of the state Juventus was? And underrated the work Conte did waking up a sleeping giant? People really thought Conte was given a strong Juventus in position ready to push for title?

And we haven't won the league in 57 years, hadn't even challenged for it in about 30 years+.

You're saying AC Milan hadn't won a league title for 7 years. 7 years. That's it!? They'd also won the champions league literally 4 years before Allegri arrived.

Juve had been relegated because of match fixing, hence why they took a while to get back up to speed. They were still undoubtedly the 1st or 2nd biggest Italian club though and I'd imagine the 1st or 2nd richest Italian club. Both Conte and Allegri have done great jobs there for sure, I'm not trying to take anything away from either of their work. They are great managers.

But to compare the 2 largest Italian clubs, with momentary downturns, to the 6th biggest club in the UK...is strange to me. I think people are forgetting maybe what Spurs were like before? In the 90s and 00s, we had slumped completely to a club in midtable and sometimes fighting relegation. We then became an EL league team, then a team which very occasionally (twice) finished in the top 4. At no point were we successful in any way in the past few decades.

 

[africanspur]

Second half of the season was all Leicester vs Spurs. City were do in first part o the season up till Pstillp announcement then fall off after and slipped away. Arsenal only led it in first half before you g through their usual Feb crisis and slipped away after losing to us. It was mostly later Leicester vs Spurs and Leicester were always at least 5 points ahead of Spurs most of the season. Saying you were never at first slot proves my point, not weakens it. I didn't say you bottled the title, I said if you couldn't compete or win the league due to other top 6 teams so what about this season ?

Sorry but such a chance will never repeat again for Spurs to win the league. All big teams got their problems either from start or Midway in the season and still failed to win the game against mighty Leicester.

I don't know what's the wage bill related like that ? Sorry but that's a useless point. An excuse that being thrown every time without a contest. Fact is Leicester is a relegation fodder team that had a freak season while Spurs were always a consistent top 5-7 finisher in the league. Losing the league against them means you have no business being compared to the other top. If the excuse of not winning the league was because the other top 6 being better then when you got a chance for a go to a title in such a season you also failed.

So? Why does it only matter whether it is the first or second half of the season? So its only a race in the 2nd half?

I don't understand the last sentence of the first paragraph tbh, ana mesh fahem.

There's literally no point saying never. People said that right after that season, then we came 2nd the season after with a points total that would have won the title in a lot of seasons. People said when Chelsea pushed us out of the CL spots by winning it that we'd lost our chance and wouldn't be qualifying again.

What do you mean you don't know how the wage bill is related? You keep on saying the mighty Leicester in a sarcastic way. I'm telling you that the 'Mighty' Tottenham have a much closer wage bill to Leicester (and in fact to Everton, Stoke, West Ham and Swansea) than we do to even Liverpool's, which again pales in comparison to Chelsea, Man Utd and City. So in a way, you're right. We have no business being compared to the other top teams at all. We have a business competing with the likes of Everton and Stoke. And yet, we're not. So trophy or not (despite the fact that I obviously want a trophy), we are clearly punching well above our weight.

You're not really getting my point either that we clearly weren't ready for that season and weren't good enough for it.

Incidentally, are you ahlawy or zamalkawy and where exactly are you from in Egypt? I'm in Cairo at the moment and the heat is much worse than usual at this time of year. For gods sake, its boiling.

 

[el3mel]

So? Why does it only matter whether it is the first or second half of the season? So its only a race in the 2nd half?

I don't understand the last sentence of the first paragraph tbh, ana mesh fahem.

There's literally no point saying never. People said that right after that season, then we came 2nd the season after with a points total that would have won the title in a lot of seasons. People said when Chelsea pushed us out of the CL spots by winning it that we'd lost our chance and wouldn't be qualifying again.

What do you mean you don't know how the wage bill is related? You keep on saying the mighty Leicester in a sarcastic way. I'm telling you that the 'Mighty' Tottenham have a much closer wage bill to Leicester (and in fact to Everton, Stoke, West Ham and Swansea) than we do to even Liverpool's, which again pales in comparison to Chelsea, Man Utd and City. So in a way, you're right. We have no business being compared to the other top teams at all. We have a business competing with the likes of Everton and Stoke. And yet, we're not. So trophy or not (despite the fact that I obviously want a trophy), we are clearly punching well above our weight.

You're not really getting my point either that we clearly weren't ready for that season and weren't good enough for it.

Did you read the discussion I had earlier with @Bosnian_fan ?

The poster I replied on earlier mentioned Klopp won the league because Bayern had a bad season like other times when other teams got the title from them, and that he only had to beat Bayern for the title, unlike Spurs in premier league.

So my replay was simple, if that's the case, then what did Poch did when all English big guns had a terrible season and Leicester won the league ? He still didn't win it, and stayed 5 points away from the top for most of the second half of the season before finishing 3rd in what was a 2 horses race, so what he did at Spurs still incomparable to what Klopp did with BVB. He's doing a good job at Spurs, a very good one, but he didn't "over achieve" with them. He should start winning something to say he overachieved over the previous manager's Spurs had.

What does wage bill mean when you are competing with Leicester ? The problem is you're putting both in the same category using wage bill as a means, while in fact Leicester isn't even a top 10 team, never was and never will be after that season, while Spurs were always at least top 7. There's no excuse in losing the league to Leicester IMO. They had a freak season, but Spurs had a much better team like what we saw in the 2 seasons next.

 

[ti vu]

And we haven't won the league in 57 years, hadn't even challenged for it in about 30 years+.

You're saying AC Milan hadn't won a league title for 7 years. 7 years. That's it!? They'd also won the champions league literally 4 years before Allegri arrived.

Juve had been relegated because of match fixing, hence why they took a while to get back up to speed. They were still undoubtedly the 1st or 2nd biggest Italian club though and I'd imagine the 1st or 2nd richest Italian club. Both Conte and Allegri have done great jobs there for sure, I'm not trying to take anything away from either of their work. They are great managers.

But to compare the 2 largest Italian clubs, with momentary downturns, to the 6th biggest club in the UK...is strange to me. I think people are forgetting maybe what Spurs were like before? In the 90s and 00s, we had slumped completely to a club in midtable and sometimes fighting relegation. We then became an EL league team, then a team which very occasionally (twice) finished in the top 4. At no point were we successful in any way in the past few decades.

So these clubs were perfectly fine at those time of Allegri and Conte took over in your opinion? So it's natural for them to mount title challenge (actually won it) right off the bat?

It's very double standard when it comes to Tottenham. I meant Leicester won the league when other so called big boys heavily slipped in that season. Tottenham was still excused for not mounting a proper title challenge. Yet Juventus, AC Milan for all their ambitions, were doing well when mile away from their objective of the clubs took down a dominant team for the prior period who won Treble. Always the financial excuse. Italian clubs made less than England counter parts. Most run on spending money to run the clubs making no profit. We're talking about Juventus and AC Milan almost a decade ago, which Juventus didn't have the same financial prowess like today. Remember a time Juventus just loan in and partial owned players? They would have love to be able to spend 30mil (whatever it would worth back then) you guy paid for Sissokho on few different players

 

[GM K]

I don't disagree with anything here. Especially the part about his game management. He is seriously lacking in that department and I don't think it is a coincidence what happened to them against Chelsea in the FA Cup, West Ham in the LC and Juventus in the CL. It is not a one off mishap, there is a pattern there.

When I wrote that he can be close to Pep's level. What I meant is that he clearly has it in him. His strengths are rare and flaws are easier to mask or improve on if he was at a bigger, richer club. I don't just mean he can be winning trophies, I mean he can be the type of manager that can build a great team, a team that play pro active football and dominate its opponents playing the alpha team. For that, you need a very rare combination of strengths and I think he is one of the very few who have them. His shortcomings in big decisive games and their game management which is why I think he did not win anything is something that is relatively easier to fix with more experience and a club with more history, resources and or profile.

Good points you have made here.

 

[Sky1981]

So? Why does it only matter whether it is the first or second half of the season? So its only a race in the 2nd half?

I don't understand the last sentence of the first paragraph tbh, ana mesh fahem.

There's literally no point saying never. People said that right after that season, then we came 2nd the season after with a points total that would have won the title in a lot of seasons. People said when Chelsea pushed us out of the CL spots by winning it that we'd lost our chance and wouldn't be qualifying again.

What do you mean you don't know how the wage bill is related? You keep on saying the mighty Leicester in a sarcastic way. I'm telling you that the 'Mighty' Tottenham have a much closer wage bill to Leicester (and in fact to Everton, Stoke, West Ham and Swansea) than we do to even Liverpool's, which again pales in comparison to Chelsea, Man Utd and City. So in a way, you're right. We have no business being compared to the other top teams at all. We have a business competing with the likes of Everton and Stoke. And yet, we're not. So trophy or not (despite the fact that I obviously want a trophy), we are clearly punching well above our weight.

You're not really getting my point either that we clearly weren't ready for that season and weren't good enough for it.

Incidentally, are you ahlawy or zamalkawy and where exactly are you from in Egypt? I'm in Cairo at the moment and the heat is much worse than usual at this time of year. For gods sake, its boiling.

So make up your mind, do you think you're the big boys or the small boys punching above his level?

If you're the big boys, prepare to be judged like one, if you're the small boy then by all means you can gloat about how glorious your punching above the weight season.

 

[africanspur]

Did you read the discussion I had earlier with @Bosnian_fan ?

The poster I replied on earlier mentioned Klopp won the league because Bayern had a bad season like other times when other teams got the title from them, and that he only had to beat Bayern for the title, unlike Spurs in premier league.

So my replay was simple, if that's the case, then what did Poch did when all English big guns had a terrible season and Leicester won the league ? He still didn't win it, and stayed 5 points away from the top for most of the second half of the season before finishing 3rd in what was a 2 horses race, so what he did at Spurs still incomparable to what Klopp did with BVB. He's doing a good job at Spurs, a very good one, but he didn't "over achieve" with them. He should start winning something to say he overachieved over the previous manager's Spurs had.

What does wage bill mean when you are competing with Leicester ? The problem is you're putting both in the same category using wage bill as a means, while in fact Leicester isn't even a top 10 team, never was and never will be after that season, while Spurs were always at least top 7. There's no excuse in losing the league to Leicester IMO. They had a freak season, but Spurs had a much better team like what we saw in the 2 seasons next.

I did read it yes.

No, his post was a bit more nuanced than that really. He said there is one giant in Germany and that when they have an off season, other clubs (and then reeled off a list of other clubs) can win the title.

That isn't the case in the PL. Other than Blackburn's win (helped by outside money), no club other than Arsenal or Man Utd won the title until Abhramovich and his millions came along. Then Mansour and his millions came along and Man City joined the club. So now there have to be 5 clubs having an off season (or at least 3-4 and hope you can make it vs the other left) before you can win the title. Fair play to them, Leicester had an incredible season and did it in that one season when they all erred.

But now let's bring it back to the BL example. There is one giant in that league. We couldn't win the league title in that season Leicester did. But we learned from that and put in a much better challenge the next season. Unfortunately, by next season, another club had woken up again, helped by no European football and put in the 2nd highest points total ever. Taking the Germany example, our giant (Man Utd) still hadn't gotten their shit together. But there are other clubs who did.

I think, having watched this club for approaching 2 decades now, I can easily say Poch has overachieved with what he has. It doesn't mean that he's infallible, doesn't have faults, can't do more, can't be criticised. But he has clearly got us punching above what we would traditionally be doing in the past few decades.

What do you mean what does it mean? It means that the wages we pay, the closest predictor to league position and overall success, is far closer to Leicester, Stoke, Swansea and Everton, than it is to the other members of the top 5. It is in fact closer to Huddersfield's wage bill in last place than it is to Chelsea and the two Manchester clubs. So how can you say he's not overachieving?

 

[africanspur]

So make up your mind, do you think you're the big boys or the small boys punching above his level?

If you're the big boys, prepare to be judged like one, if you're the small boy then by all means you can gloat about how glorious your punching above the weight season.

Make up my mind? When have I ever said that we're one of the big boys?

 

[ti vu]

Make up my mind? When have I ever said that we're one of the big boys?

If that is your point, then don't jump into conversation where me and some other posters had with those who claimed Poch is ready for elite level/ clubs based on the progress at Tottenham.

 

[el3mel]

I did read it yes.

No, his post was a bit more nuanced than that really. He said there is one giant in Germany and that when they have an off season, other clubs (and then reeled off a list of other clubs) can win the title.

That isn't the case in the PL. Other than Blackburn's win (helped by outside money), no club other than Arsenal or Man Utd won the title until Abhramovich and his millions came along. Then Mansour and his millions came along and Man City joined the club. So now there have to be 5 clubs having an off season (or at least 3-4 and hope you can make it vs the other left) before you can win the title. Fair play to them, Leicester had an incredible season and did it in that one season when they all erred.

But now let's bring it back to the BL example. There is one giant in that league. We couldn't win the league title in that season Leicester did. But we learned from that and put in a much better challenge the next season. Unfortunately, by next season, another club had woken up again, helped by no European football and put in the 2nd highest points total ever. Taking the Germany example, our giant (Man Utd) still hadn't gotten their shit together. But there are other clubs who did.

I think, having watched this club for approaching 2 decades now, I can easily say Poch has overachieved with what he has. It doesn't mean that he's infallible, doesn't have faults, can't do more, can't be criticised. But he has clearly got us punching above what we would traditionally be doing in the past few decades.

What do you mean what does it mean? It means that the wages we pay, the closest predictor to league position and overall success, is far closer to Leicester, Stoke, Swansea and Everton, than it is to the other members of the top 5. It is in fact closer to Huddersfield's wage bill in last place than it is to Chelsea and the two Manchester clubs. So how can you say he's not overachieving?

The point of Bayern being the only force in Germany and that's not applicable in England is fair but I'm not comparing the 2 leagues Klopp won with this current season and the previous season of premier league. I'm comparing it with a season in which all English big teams were struggling with several problems and Poch still didn't win the title so you can't underestimate what Klopp did with BVB and overestimate what Poch did with Spurs in the same sentence.

Poch got a chance to have a go at the league much like when Klopp had a chance to go for Bundasliga. Klopp succeeded and Poch failed. That's it. Not to mention Klopp at the same period reached CL final with BVB knocking out Madrid. He made BVB a respectable force and no pushover. Poch is yet to do that with Spurs let's be honest. He plays very good football and finishes top 4 regularly but didn't reach the same heights Klopp had reached with a BVB side who was mediocre (at this time) before he got the job.

Wage bill can mean a thing if you're competing against Chelsea, City or United, but a relegation fodder as Leicester ? If you believe in that excuse OK.

 

[africanspur]

So these clubs were perfectly fine at those time of Allegri and Conte took over in your opinion? So it's natural for them to mount title challenge (actually won it) right off the bat?

It's very double standard when it comes to Tottenham. I meant Leicester won the league when other so called big boys heavily slipped in that season. Tottenham was still excused for not mounting a proper title challenge. Yet Juventus, AC Milan for all their ambitions, were doing well when mile away from their objective of the clubs took down a dominant team for the prior period who won Treble. Always the financial excuse. Italian clubs made less than England counter parts. Most run on spending money to run the clubs making no profit. We're talking about Juventus and AC Milan almost a decade ago, which Juventus didn't have the same financial prowess like today. Remember a time Juventus just loan in and partial owned players? They would have love to be able to spend 30mil (whatever it would worth back then) you guy paid for Sissokho on few different players

Did I say they were perfectly fine? You tried to paint AC Milan as a club in dissaray. They hadn't won the league for 7 years and the CL for 4. We haven't won the league for 57 years and a European trophy for over 30. Our last trophy will be 10 years ago this season unless we win the FA cup this season and our last major trophy will have been 28 years ago. So how on earth is that comparable, also as the 5th or 6th biggest and richest club in the country, to taking over one of the 2 (or even at a stretch 3) biggest and richest clubs in Italy?

In fact, did I even say that they'd done an easy job? I said both of those Italian managers had done great jobs.

Where is the double standard exactly? Again...I didn't say they were doing well did I? You're literally making up statements that I did not make.

Why does it matter what Italian clubs made vs English clubs? You're talking about their domestic achievements? We don't compete in Italy so its completely irrelevent what our financial power is compared to theirs when you're talking about their title wins. I'm sure we make more money than Olympiakos as well but what relevance would that have to their league title wins? Incidentally, if you're going to talk about European runs, Allegri and Milan were knocked out by Harry 'run around a bit, pass the ball to Modric' Redknapp. But that has absolutely no impact on their domestic success so why is it relevant?

Also, what are you talking about? You make it sound like we bought Sissoko 10 years ago. We bought him in the summer of 2016/2017, the same summer that Juve dropped 90 million euros on Higuain, 30 million on Pjanic and 23 million on Pjaca. Or just 1 summer before Milan paid larger sums for Andre Silva and Bonucci, paying a total of £175 million gross overall.

 

[africanspur]

If that is your point, then don't jump into conversation where me and some other posters had with those who claimed Poch is ready for elite level/ clubs based on the progress at Tottenham.

Firstly, I didn't make a point in that post.

Secondly, the post I initially replied to and my initial reply had little to do with whether Poch is ready for an elite job or not but was simply a comment on whether winning a title at Milan or Juve is suddenly insanely difficult.

Its like saying Mourinho will have done an insane job when he wins the title at Man Utd. Mourinho is an incredible manager and will deserve the plaudits when he wins the title.m

But when it comes to a club with the resources of Man Utd, it is a matter of when, not if, they will win the title again. It doesn't matter that its been 5 years now since the last title win.

 

[BigCaine]

I did read it yes.

No, his post was a bit more nuanced than that really. He said there is one giant in Germany and that when they have an off season, other clubs (and then reeled off a list of other clubs) can win the title.

That isn't the case in the PL. Other than Blackburn's win (helped by outside money), no club other than Arsenal or Man Utd won the title until Abhramovich and his millions came along. Then Mansour and his millions came along and Man City joined the club. So now there have to be 5 clubs having an off season (or at least 3-4 and hope you can make it vs the other left) before you can win the title. Fair play to them, Leicester had an incredible season and did it in that one season when they all erred.

But now let's bring it back to the BL example. There is one giant in that league. We couldn't win the league title in that season Leicester did. But we learned from that and put in a much better challenge the next season. Unfortunately, by next season, another club had woken up again, helped by no European football and put in the 2nd highest points total ever. Taking the Germany example, our giant (Man Utd) still hadn't gotten their shit together. But there are other clubs who did.

I think, having watched this club for approaching 2 decades now, I can easily say Poch has overachieved with what he has. It doesn't mean that he's infallible, doesn't have faults, can't do more, can't be criticised. But he has clearly got us punching above what we would traditionally be doing in the past few decades.

What do you mean what does it mean? It means that the wages we pay, the closest predictor to league position and overall success, is far closer to Leicester, Stoke, Swansea and Everton, than it is to the other members of the top 5. It is in fact closer to Huddersfield's wage bill in last place than it is to Chelsea and the two Manchester clubs. So how can you say he's not overachieving?

You can use all the excuses you want, but the fact remains he has a brilliant side at his disposal and he has won feck all with them.

You say he has overachieved given your average spend and wages as the excuse, but you completely ignore the team he has at his disposal. He had atleast until start of this season England's best fb's, a striker who has nos to rival shearer. The best cb pairing in EPL and the trophy count reads 0. That is underachieving to me.

Epl isn't BL so lets excuse the pl trophy though i still feel if Leicester could win it so should you. But what about FA cup or League cup, those are trophies which have been won by minnows at times yet pochettino hasn't even made it to a final of one of those let alone win either of those. What's the excuse for that?

He is a bottler who can play pretty football but will not win anything of note at Tottenham or elsewhere.

 

[ti vu]

@africanspur
Okay. You seem to be in bad mood today and jump on posts people were discussing about specific posts made by a specific poster

You make claim you're not saying Tottenham is not elite club ( Poch not ready for elite level???), then we don't have business discussing this. Why? Because that poster claimed other wise. You're fundamentally disagree with that poster then what are you on about! Not one with me but other posters. Chill mate.

 

[africanspur]

The point of Bayern being the only force in Germany and that's not applicable in England is fair but I'm not comparing the 2 leagues Klopp won with this current season and the previous season of premier league. I'm comparing it with a season in which all English big teams were struggling with several problems and Poch still didn't win the title so you can't underestimate what Klopp did with BVB and overestimate what Poch did with Spurs in the same sentence.

Poch got a chance to have a go at the league much like when Klopp had a chance to go for Bundasliga. Klopp succeeded and Poch failed. That's it. Not to mention Klopp at the same period reached CL final with BVB knocking out Madrid. He made BVB a respectable force and no pushover. Poch is yet to do that with Spurs let's be honest. He plays very good football and finishes top 4 regularly but didn't reach the same heights Klopp had reached with a BVB side who was mediocre (at this time) before he got the job.

Wage bill can mean a thing if you're competing against Chelsea, City or United, but a relegation fodder as Leicester ? If you believe in that excuse OK.

I've personally never tried to take anything away from Klopp though. Regardless of how many better clubs there are in the league, winning a league is a great achievement. As is getting to the CL final as well.

Again though, with respect, you're comparing apples and oranges. Dortmund are the 2nd biggest club in Germany, with the biggest stadium. Certainly the 2nd most successful club. In the 90s, they won the league, twice and came runners up. They also won the CL in the 90s. They won a league title early 2000s. Again, compare to Spurs' recent trophy haul...not exactly comparable. If we're going to be making cross league comparisons, Dortmund are more like the Arsenal of the BL than the Spurs.

I'd say we are not pushovers. We lost a tie to the current Italian champions and finalist in 2 of the last 3 CLs by 1 goal. We came top of the CL group that we apparently had no chance in. We're doing pretty well in the league. Its not that long ago that I'd worry even when we were 3 or 4 goals up in a match.

I'm not talking about the wage bill with regards to the Leicester title win. I'm talking about it with regards to how I think he is overachieving generally with this club in the league as a whole, over his entire time here and not just one season. Also, Leicester haven't come close to relegation since coming up. They've finished 14th, 1st, 12th and are currently 8th I believe. Which other than the title win season, is about where their wage bill says they should be sitting roughly.

 

[africanspur]

You can use all the excuses you want, but the fact remains he has a brilliant side at his disposal and he has won feck all with them.

You say he has overachieved given your average spend and wages as the excuse, but you completely ignore the team he has at his disposal. He had atleast until start of this season England's best fb's, a striker who has nos to rival shearer. The best cb pairing in EPL and the trophy count reads 0. That is underachieving to me.

Epl isn't BL so lets excuse the pl trophy though i still feel if Leicester could win it so should you. But what about FA cup or League cup, those are trophies which have been won by minnows at times yet pochettino hasn't even made it to a final of one of those let alone win either of those. What's the excuse for that?

He is a bottler who can play pretty football but will not win anything of note at Tottenham or elsewhere.

Actually, Poch made it to the final of the league cup in his first season, when we lost to Chelsea under Mourinho.

Yeah, we need to win trophies, no doubt about that. Poch can improve and needs to improve, no doubt about that. League and FA cups are won by minnows a little less often than people like to admit but yep, we should be trying to win those trophies as well.

As for the last sentence, I'd appreciate the lottery numbers for next week as well while you're at it please.