A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

Jev said:
I will still maintain that this is a reductive analysis that only takes the result into account and not the flow of the game. Granted, as a United fan it might be a pragmatic approach at the moment, seeing as it means you don't actually have to watch our boring games.
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At the end of the day given the choice I'd rather we play the ugliest football on the pitch and advance to the next round compared to outplaying the opponent and still lost. If that's the choice given.

Off course we all wanted a nice football to go with, but a win is more enjoyable than all the good football for me.

My source of entertainment isn't football alone, but rooting for my team, against all odds.
 
Yagami said:
He deserves criticism for the lack of trophies because he doesn't even try with the league cup and fa cup, but he deserves credit for the way he's brought them up to the standards they are. Huge credit to do as well as they did in their CL run.
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In a nutshell.

Too many people tying themselves into knots trying to argue that one perspective invalidates the other.
 
B20 said:
How can you say it ignores the flow of the game when yours does the exact opposite? You are obviously saying: "ignoring the context of how the scoreline influenced the game, spurs executed their approach better and longer than juve did." In the context of the dynamics of the game, juve executed when they needed to.

Also, I am a liverpool fan. go wash your mouth with soap.
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What I mean is that you are reducing the "dynamic" or the "flow" of the game to merely the taking of chances. Juve didn't equalize after turning the tide through tactical changes. The goal didn't come after a sustained period of pressure, it came out of nothing. Under normal circumstances Spurs would be long gone before Juve got their first goal. In my opinion, Juve's win was mainly down to luck and a little bit of experience. The best team lost.
 
Jev said:
You can deserve to win by playing defensively if you actually defend well and pounce on the counter. Juve didn't defend well yesterday. Tottenham created plenty of chances and should have scored at least three goals before Juve got one. Juve didn't threaten on the counter at all before the goal, save for one stone-wall penalty they should have had.

One moment, Juve's first goal, switched the momentum of the game. After that Juventus showed their mental strength and experience. But from a pure footballing perspective, Tottenham's tactics succeeded way better than Juve's. Over two legs, they were by far the better team for about 165 out of 180 minutes.
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Juve didn't defend well? Totenham tactics didnt work, if it works it'll be them who progress.

The aim of football is to score more than your opponent, tactics main goal is to win the match. If you dont win the match you can never say your tactic is spot on (bar extraordinary circumstances like red card and having to play with 10 men or something like that).

The love for poch and spurs in a manchester united forum is bordering adultery. This sort of things is what you'd argue for the sake of your team, not the kind of things you'd say for your rival team.
 
Poor game management, the moment Allegri brought on Lichtsteiner and Asamoah, he should have brought on Wanyama on for Alli, then had Son and Eriksen to track the runs of Lichtsteiner and Asamoah, but instead Lichtsteiner had a free run down the right neither Alli or Davies got near to Lichtsteiner and it was 1-1, and he still had no interest in trying to keep it tight for the next 5 minuets, when it went 2-1 Lucas, Llorente & Lamela should have all come on and went for it, but instead they spent the next 10 minuets feeling sorry for themselves.
 
Jev said:
What I mean is that you are reducing the "dynamic" or the "flow" of the game to merely the taking of chances. Juve didn't equalize after turning the tide through tactical changes. The goal didn't come after a sustained period of pressure, it came out of nothing. Under normal circumstances Spurs would be long gone before Juve got their first goal. In my opinion, Juve's win was mainly down to luck and a little bit of experience. The best team lost.
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Juventus equalised through their tactical changes. They brought Swiss RB who provided width and created first goal with his overlapping run and cross.
 
Sky1981 said:
Juve didn't defend well? Totenham tactics didnt work, if it works it'll be them who progress.

The aim of football is to score more than your opponent, tactics main goal is to win the match. If you dont win the match you can never say your tactic is spot on (bar extraordinary circumstances like red card and having to play with 10 men or something like that).

The love for poch and spurs in a manchester united forum is bordering adultery. This sort of things is what you'd argue for the sake of your team, not the kind of things you'd say for your rival team.
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I'm sorry but I believe you are so blinded by your bias that any further discussion would be futile (and you believe the opposite which is fair) so let's leave it here.
 
paulscholes18 said:
Poor game management, the moment Allegri brought on Lichtsteiner and Asamoah, he should have brought on Wanyama on for Alli, then had Son and Eriksen to track the runs of Lichtsteiner and Asamoah, but instead Lichtsteiner had a free run down the right neither Alli or Davies got near to Lichtsteiner and it was 1-1, and he still had no interest in trying to keep it tight for the next 5 minuets, when it went 2-1 Lucas, Llorente & Lamela should have all come on and went for it, but instead they spent the next 10 minuets feeling sorry for themselves.
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I think allegri planned that all along. Taking poch by surprise, probably why he didn't do that from the start so that poch has no time to think of a counter.

Tbf to poch it's easy in retrospect to see what he should havr done, but at the time of the match it's probably not that obvious
 
xG over the two legs:

Juventus (4.0) (including two penalties)
Tottenham (3.4)

So for all this 'outplaying' Tottenham did, Juventus still had the better chances.
 
Sky1981 said:
Juve didn't defend well? Totenham tactics didnt work, if it works it'll be them who progress.

The aim of football is to score more than your opponent, tactics main goal is to win the match. If you dont win the match you can never say your tactic is spot on (bar extraordinary circumstances like red card and having to play with 10 men or something like that).

The love for poch and spurs in a manchester united forum is bordering adultery. This sort of things is what you'd argue for the sake of your team, not the kind of things you'd say for your rival team.
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Spot on. No shame in loving Poch but the fact that not just him but rival clubs are well defended by our fans here more than our team itself is mind boggling. This forum sometimes value the rival clubs and their managers more than us, something you will never see in any other rival club forum who just talk shite about us.
 
Jev said:
I'm sorry but I believe you are so blinded by your bias that any further discussion would be futile (and you believe the opposite which is fair) so let's leave it here.
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Bias? What bias? They lost the tie, the better team won at the end of the day. I don't need to have any bias.

I wonder why you're so butthurt totenham lost. Do you support Tottenham? If so then my apologies. If you support united then maybe you should join us laughing at our rival lost
 
Jev said:
Or alternatively:

Maybe people watch football to be entertained and appreciate Pochettino's effort do to so.

Maybe they understand that it's more difficult to win trophies when managing Tottenham than when managing Real Madrid og Manchester City.

Maybe they respect the fact that he's playing attractive football and delivering objectively good results on a much slimmer budget than his rivals while promoting young players.

Just maybe.
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Interesting point. This year, more so than any other, I've watched many Tottenham games for one reason - they're bloody entertaining. Yesterday's game was quite a spectacle involving a European giant and an upcoming force. It was end to end, several chances for both teams, many fantastic players on the pitch and an incredibly loud Wembley crowd. As a neutral, this game was a hell of a watch as are most of Spurs' games, however, I'd like to believe that their fans would rather sacrifice some of the entertainment for some silverware. Truth is, you can be as entertaining as anything, but nothing beats that feeling of winning a trophy as a player or, in our case, as a fan.

I like Tottenham, not to the point where I'd make it out like I love them; however, there was a meme where, in the future, a man tell his son that he was there "when Spurs put the pressure on" - I hope, for their sake, that isn't all they achieve during, what looks like, a very promising era.
 
He does really well to get more from players than other managers would. I still think Spurs have the weakest set of players of the top 6...although they do have Kane and you wonder if they'd even be part of a top six without him...but still.

The problem is he's really almost Wenger levels of naïve in situations where the game plan isn't working, or against teams who are good enough to win without necessarily being the better side. It happens to them time and time again, and it's not so much that he reacts too late, as that he just seems to refuse to recognise or learn from it at all.

When they went to the Etihad, it wasn't just about reacting too late to City trouncing down their left flank, or constantly exposing them when they came forwards. It was the fact that the way they set up to just play the same as they always do in the first place was obviously a stupid idea.

He had a warning in the first leg of the Juventus tie about what happens if just ignore their strengths. They made changes last night, they were suddenly able to play the ball through Spurs...Spurs just carried on as if it wasn't a problem.

They have a way of playing and that's it. The best teams don't do this. Even City adjust...against United, they controlled most of the game, when United had spells of being more aggressive and playing through them, they dropped back and closed off space, then re-asserted themselves. Against Chelsea, they realised what Chelsea were up to so were more conservative with their passing. If it was Spurs Pochettino would have them just carry on regardless.

I don't think you can get away with this kind of management anymore if you want to actually win things. It worked for Wenger when there was just United to compete with, as all you needed was for it to work against United once every few years. Now there are five other teams you need it to work against all at the same time. You need to be willing to adapt against opponents who can hurt you. I don't think they've won a game away against a top six side and are still hit and miss at home.
 
noodlehair said:
He does really well to get more from players than other managers would. I still think Spurs have the weakest set of players of the top 6...although they do have Kane and you wonder if they'd even be part of a top six without him...but still.

The problem is he's really almost Wenger levels of naïve in situations where the game plan isn't working, or against teams who are good enough to win without necessarily being the better side. It happens to them time and time again, and it's not so much that he reacts too late, as that he just seems to refuse to recognise or learn from it at all.

When they went to the Etihad, it wasn't just about reacting too late to City trouncing down their left flank, or constantly exposing them when they came forwards. It was the fact that the way they set up to just play the same as they always do in the first place was obviously a stupid idea.

He had a warning in the first leg of the Juventus tie about what happens if just ignore their strengths. They made changes last night, they were suddenly able to play the ball through Spurs...Spurs just carried on as if it wasn't a problem.

They have a way of playing and that's it. The best teams don't do this. Even City adjust...against United, they controlled most of the game, when United had spells of being more aggressive and playing through them, they dropped back and closed off space, then re-asserted themselves. Against Chelsea, they realised what Chelsea were up to so were more conservative with their passing. If it was Spurs Pochettino would have them just carry on regardless.

I don't think you can get away with this kind of management anymore if you want to actually win things. It worked for Wenger when there was just United to compete with, as all you needed was for it to work against United once every few years. Now there are five other teams you need it to work against all at the same time. You need to be willing to adapt against opponents who can hurt you. I don't think they've won a game away against a top six side and are still hit and miss at home.
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Imho the level of opposition also changes. You can play expansive football if your team is better than the opponent but against equal strenght opposition who also has a human manager who can react and counter your tactics it'll be a different story.

And i agree with your view on arsenal, they're martial artist in a way their football is beautiful to watch and probably can dance their opponent to death looking graciously, but saf team we're a fighter first and foremost, they're not mesmerized by the fancy moves, stood their ground and deliver knock out blows in a very simple and straightforward moves.
 
Sky1981 said:
Juve didn't defend well? Totenham tactics didnt work, if it works it'll be them who progress.

The aim of football is to score more than your opponent, tactics main goal is to win the match. If you dont win the match you can never say your tactic is spot on (bar extraordinary circumstances like red card and having to play with 10 men or something like that).

The love for poch and spurs in a manchester united forum is bordering adultery. This sort of things is what you'd argue for the sake of your team, not the kind of things you'd say for your rival team.
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This is the football forum. Not the Manchester United forum. Even if it was the latter, the level of bias you're asking for, is appropriate for the stands, not a level headed discussion.
 
Jev said:
This is just plain wrong. Spurs had plenty of chances, completely controlled the game and should have had the game in the bag long before the equaliser.

Once again, people are overly critical because they are agenda-driven. It's so strange to see some posters almost using attacking and entertaining football as negative terms. Have you all forgotten that we used to pride ourselves in our attacking football? It's fair to think it's better to win than to entertain but they're not mutually exclusive and some of you sound like you'd rather be boring than entertaining regardless of the result. It's so weird.

Spurs dominated Juventus over two legs. They deserved to go through and up until the two quick goals, there was nothing to suggest Juventus could get back in the tie.

Poch deserves neither special praise nor special criticism after yesterday. Spurs played their game and were very unlucky not to win. That's it.
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:wenger:

No 'agenda' in your post there at all, no...

No idea why you've lumped me in with some imaginary brigade of anti-football types on the basis of Spurs being shit last night? You don't see me criticising Barcelona, City etc. Football can obviously be entertaining even when it's possession based, posted regularly about how much I enjoyed Swansea a few years back. But possession alone doesn't mean entertainment if it's the defence in possession for most of the match. Spurs barely created, and couldn't get their better players on the ball or hold the ball in the right areas for most of the second half, they were turd and it's amazing how this forum makes excuses for them.

People are overly positive because they are agenda-driven. It's so strange to see some posters almost using winning and effective football as negative terms. Have you all forgotten that we used to pride ourselves in our championships? It's fair to think it's better to entertain than win but they're not mutually exclusive and some of you sound like you'd rather be entertaining than excelling regardless of the result. It's so weird.
 
Djemba-Djemba said:
Has Pochettino won a two legged European tie at Spurs yet?
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He's 1-4. He's won the same amount ties in the knockout stages as Sherwood.

Spurs were 4-3 in those knockout ties in the four seasons prior to Pochettino versus 1-4 in the four seasons with the maestro.
 
adexkola said:
This is the football forum. Not the Manchester United forum. Even if it was the latter, the level of bias you're asking for, is appropriate for the stands, not a level headed discussion.
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Bias? What sort of bias? You plastered everyone not agreeing with you as biased. Totenham lost the match, they got beat by a better team who's tactic is more spot on. What sort of bias do i sport?

Again. What bias? Oh do enlighten me
 
Sky1981 said:
Bias? What sort of bias? You plastered everyone not agreeing with you as biased. Totenham lost the match, they got beat by a better team who's tactic is more spot on. What sort of bias do i sport?

Again. What bias? Oh do enlighten me
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Last paragraph of your post I quoted. That is what I was responding to.
 
Keeps It tidy said:
I have a feeling even if they win the FA Cup the criticism would not die.
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Of course it fecking wouldn't. Wenger has won 3 FA cups in the past 4 years. The narrative is that he's destroyed the club, not brought them greatness.

There are people convinced that the only thing separating Poch and his team from greatness is an FA cup. That's nonsense.
 
Sky1981 said:
When people are so ferociously defending a rival manager while claiming to be a united fans?
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On the football forum of the Caf. If this was the stands, or the Matchday thread, or even the Manchester United forum, you would have a point. The football forum is supposed to tilt towards a more neutral perspective of the sport.

Plus, what's the fun in everyone posting green smilies? A good discussion needs a good amount of posters on both sides.
 
RedSky said:
Indeed.

I honestly would fear for some of our posters health if we went on a 5 year long trophyless run.
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Winning trophies isn't the be-all and end-all. If it were everyone would just support the best teams. The best thing about English football is the passion and camaraderie that comes with supporting your club and going to games whether it's Manchester United or Hartlepool United.

Liverpool swept up most trophies in the 70s and 80s but Dave Sexton aside it wasn't all doom. Utd's attendance record per capacity was still the highest, the attacking football and back when footballers had a resonance with supporters. Bryan Robson is one of the greatest players this club has ever and if you're of a certain age, he'd have a stake of making the all time team. Yet his only league medal came when he was effectively a coat-hanger. Imagine if he was playing now - people wouldn't put him in the echelons because he didn't win much.

One of the best things about the Ferguson era was witnessing it unfold. The highs were even greater because we had to live with the lows that preceded it.
 
Boycott said:
Winning trophies isn't the be-all and end-all. If it were everyone would just support the best teams. The best thing about English football is the passion and camaraderie that comes with supporting your club and going to games whether it's Manchester United or Hartlepool United.

Liverpool swept up most trophies in the 70s and 80s but Dave Sexton aside it wasn't all doom. Utd's attendance record per capacity was still the highest, the attacking football and back when footballers had a resonance with supporters. Bryan Robson is one of the greatest players this club has ever and if you're of a certain age, he'd have a stake of making the all time team. Yet his only league medal came when he was effectively a coat-hanger. Imagine if he was playing now - people wouldn't put him in the echelons because he didn't win much.

One of the best things about the Ferguson era was witnessing it unfold. The highs were even greater because we had to live with the lows that preceded it.
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Yup, I guess it's a making of our own success that fans have this odd expectation that any top club HAS to win trophies every season to consider it a success.

If I was a Spurs fan and i'd followed the club through the 90's and 00's then i'd be absolutely loving the Pochettino era. They've had the Wembley issue to resolve and yet have dealt with that ok and look like finishing in the Top 4 and finishing well clear of Arsenal. If they can get to the final of the FA Cup i'd say it's been a good season for them with their expectations. Winning the FA Cup, finishing Top 4 with their CL run would be a great season for them in my opinion.
 
So he failed to win the biggest competition in club football with Spurs. Bloody hell hardly worthy of criticism. The job he's done to get Spurs to a similar level as Juventus is impressive. The argument that he hasn't won anything is a load of nonsense. If it had any weight then Avram Grant and Roberto Di Matteo would be classed as better managers than Poch.
 
paulscholes18 said:
Poor game management, the moment Allegri brought on Lichtsteiner and Asamoah, he should have brought on Wanyama on for Alli, then had Son and Eriksen to track the runs of Lichtsteiner and Asamoah, but instead Lichtsteiner had a free run down the right neither Alli or Davies got near to Lichtsteiner and it was 1-1, and he still had no interest in trying to keep it tight for the next 5 minuets, when it went 2-1 Lucas, Llorente & Lamela should have all come on and went for it, but instead they spent the next 10 minuets feeling sorry for themselves.
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Allegri brought those 2 players on because Spurs' wing backs were getting tired. I don't think Wanyama would have helped there in terms of wide tactics but the 2nd goal may have been avoidable with Wanyama on, since Chiellini ran straight up the middle of the pitch and played a straight ball to Higuain. In my opinion the Spurs' right back went to sleep tracking the run of Dybala between himself and the centre back. Fatigue does affect your concentration when you're running for 60+ minutes.
 
Honestly I like him a lot but I'm not sure if he deserves too much praise for the games against Juve. They scored 4 times, missed a penalty and was robbed of another certain penalty. I mean if you wanna progress in the CL then you can't give away these many chances.
 
KM said:
Honestly I like him a lot but I'm not sure if he deserves too much praise for the games against Juve. They scored 4 times, missed a penalty and was robbed of another certain penalty. I mean if you wanna progress in the CL then you can't give away these many chances.
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On the flip side they put 3 past one of the best defences in Europe and had several other good chances. In the end I don't think there was much between the two teams.
 
AndyJ1985 said:
On the flip side they put 3 past one of the best defences in Europe and had several other good chances. In the end I don't think there was much between the two teams.
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How's that a "flip side". How many clear cut chances did Spurs had in the second half? Juve outplayed them at Wembley especially. It's been a great campaign for them and they've been unlucky with the Juve draw but I think it's also wrong to say(as some are saying) that Spurs were the better side in the two matches.
 
Peanut Butter said:
It's the younger, hipster, football manager obsessed football fan.

Pochettino is young, good looking and his sides entertain. He's the cool bloke on the block at the moment. People don't think about his lack of silverware because he's flavour of the moment.

It will be someone else next season, meanwhile the likes of Mourinho and Guardiola will probably just keep winning trophies.

Poch will become a very good manager no doubt about it. But he's got to start winning trophies before we can mention him as same breath as Jose, Pep or even Klopp.
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Pochettino hasn't had the resources yet to win a trophy. Klopp won it with Dortmund but even finances wise, they were the 2nd or 3rd richest team in German League at the moment. Spurs are at around 6th in PL.

Regardless, he's an excellent manager who's still relatively young. I'd be shocked if he doesn't manage one of PSG, Madrid or United in the next two years.
 
AndyJ1985 said:
So he failed to win the biggest competition in club football with Spurs. Bloody hell hardly worthy of criticism. The job he's done to get Spurs to a similar level as Juventus is impressive. The argument that he hasn't won anything is a load of nonsense. If it had any weight then Avram Grant and Roberto Di Matteo would be classed as better managers than Poch.
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What did Grant win with Chelsea? Ok that 6-0 trashing of Man City is a highlight!
 
KM said:
Pochettino hasn't had the resources yet to win a trophy. Klopp won it with Dortmund but even finances wise, they were the 2nd or 3rd richest team in German League at the moment. Spurs are at around 6th in PL.

Regardless, he's an excellent manager who's still relatively young. I'd be shocked if he doesn't manage one of PSG, Madrid or United in the next two years.
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this
 
Steady progress is being made. To get into the top 4 once is an achievement, to make your club become a 'top 4 club' is another. If they continue to keep their best players and add to them, they will be stronger and stronger.
 
KM said:
How's that a "flip side". How many clear cut chances did Spurs had in the second half? Juve outplayed them at Wembley especially. It's been a great campaign for them and they've been unlucky with the Juve draw but I think it's also wrong to say(as some are saying) that Spurs were the better side in the two matches.
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I only watched the last 20mins but Spurs were all over Juve and Son and Kane both got very, very close to equalising. The difference ultimately was how clinical Juve were, 3 shots on target 2 goals in the 2nd leg. That's the difference, a club that can defend extremely well and clinical when the chances arrive. Very hard to beat. Higuain deserves big credit too despite missing a penalty in the 1st leg. 6 shots, 3 goals. Kane had 9 shots, 1 goal.

@Inigo Montoya

Wasn't Grant the manager when Chelsea won the CL?
 
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