2024 U.S. Elections | Trump v Harris

Red in STL said:
Tariffs are a voter winner for the idiots persuaded that China pays them, problem is there are a lot of eejits out there
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Exactly this. Trump has framed tariffs as a way to hurt China, therefore his supporters will love him all the more as their overriding motivation for supporting Trump is that he hurts people: the whole "drinking liberal tears" fantasy, attacking immigrants, attacking other religions, people trying to save the environment, raped women with unwanted pregnancies, etc., - all motivated by wanting to hurt people.

If they believe that Trump can somehow hurt the whole nation of China by a tariffs system they clearly don't understand then all the more reason for them to vote for him. So much of his appeal is the hate and vengeance narrative, it clearly motivates his base.
 
Red in STL said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the corpoate tax rates expire, the tax cuts that retire in 2025 are the peronal ones, ie: what most of us pay

Tariffs are a voter winner for the idiots persuaded that China pays them, problem is there are a lot of eejits out there
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How this will go, voters will blame dems for it if Harris wins, despite being a strict partisan bill by republicans, if their rates goes up(depends).

If Trump wins, voters will just claim its Biden leaving them a supposed poor economy, therefore "dear leader" gets no blame for the bill he signed, if some have their taxes increased.
 
Red in STL said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the corpoate tax rates expire, the tax cuts that retire in 2025 are the peronal ones, ie: what most of us pay

Tariffs are a voter winner for the idiots persuaded that China pays them, problem is there are a lot of eejits out there
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My mistake, I didn't know the 35% to 21% corporate tax rate was permanent. Trump is promising to further decrease corporate tax rates - i think i read to 15%. You can be sure that will make the stock market pop.

One proposal of his I do like, is bringing back full SALT deductions...
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/09/20/trump-salt-cap-house-gop-tax-00180245

Not being allowed to deduct all of your property tax is ridiculous.
It felt like that was the GOPs way of punishing blue states and a way to offset his corporate tax cuts.

No tax on tips or overtime, no tax on social security, full salt deduction, auto loan interest deductions. He really doesn't care if he runs up a huge deficit, as long as he is in power and out of jail.

I'm skeptical whether tariffs are a "vote winner". Those eejits you speak off are likely with him anyway. The country club Republicans know better.

Harris needs to stop calling his tariffs the "Trump sales tax" people are not connecting that to the tariffs he is talking about. Just call them tariffs and explain the consumer pays.
 
Morty_ said:
How this will go, voters will blame dems for it if Harris wins, despite being a strict partisan bill by republicans, if their rates goes up(depends).

If Trump wins, voters will just claim its Biden leaving them a supposed poor economy, therefore "dear leader" gets no blame for the bill he signed, if some have their taxes increased.
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Of course they will, I don't think the tax rate goes up, it's the tax free allowances and deductibles that revert to the previous levels, only Congress can change it I don't see either side getting all 3 branches, the house and the senate will probably change hands and who knows about the top job
 
gaffs said:
My mistake, I didn't know the 35% to 21% corporate tax rate was permanent. Trump is promising to further decrease corporate tax rates - i think i read to 15%. You can be sure that will make the stock market pop.

One proposal of his I do like, is bringing back full SALT deductions...
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/09/20/trump-salt-cap-house-gop-tax-00180245

Not being allowed to deduct all of your property tax is ridiculous.
It felt like that was the GOPs way of punishing blue states and a way to offset his corporate tax cuts.

No tax on tips or overtime, no tax on social security, full salt deduction, auto loan interest deductions. He really doesn't care if he runs up a huge deficit, as long as he is in power and out of jail.

I'm skeptical whether tariffs are a "vote winner". Those eejits you speak off are likely with him anyway. The country club Republicans know better.

Harris needs to stop calling his tariffs the "Trump sales tax" people are not connecting that to the tariffs he is talking about. Just call them tariffs and explain the consumer pays.
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Most of the big corporations only pay around 16-17% anyway due to all the loopholes

I'm skeptical about the SALT thing TBH, Trump never admits he does anything wrong and this would be exactly that, it definitely was a ploy to punish blue states/cities

Regarding tariffs, they did try and explain them originally that way, obviously that didn't work, what they really need is a top business CEO that people know and trust and get them to give the message, whether one exists is a different matter though!
 
The women do not seem particularly motivated in North Carolina compared to other swing states. Only 30% have returned their ballots, and only 52% of the voters so far are women, 3% less than other states.
 

The double standard for Harris and Trump has reached a breaking point​

Eugene Robinson in The Washington Post

Something is wrong with this split-screen picture. On one side, former president Donald Trump rants about mass deportations and claims to have stopped “wars with France,” after being described by his longest-serving White House chief of staff as a literal fascist. On the other side, commentators debate whether Vice President Kamala Harris performed well enough at a CNN town hall to “close the deal.”

Seriously? Much of a double standard here?

Somehow, it is apparently baked into this campaign that Trump is allowed to talk and act like a complete lunatic while Harris has to be perfect in every way. I don’t know the answer to the chicken-or-egg question — whether media coverage is leading public perception or vice versa — but the disparate treatment is glaring.
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Let’s review: First, Harris was criticized for not doing enough interviews — so she did multiple interviews, including with nontraditional media. She was criticized for not doing hostile interviews — so she went toe to toe with Bret Baier of Fox News. She was criticized as being comfortable only at scripted rallies — so she did unscripted events, such as the town hall on Wednesday. Along the way, she wiped the floor with Trump during their one televised debate.
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Oops, there I go again, dwelling on the existential peril we face. Instead, let’s parse every detail of every position Harris takes today against every detail of every position she took five years ago. And then let’s wonder why she hasn’t already put this election away.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/10/24/harris-trump-cnn-town-hall/
 
Wing Attack Plan R said:

The double standard for Harris and Trump has reached a breaking point​

Eugene Robinson in The Washington Post

Something is wrong with this split-screen picture. On one side, former president Donald Trump rants about mass deportations and claims to have stopped “wars with France,” after being described by his longest-serving White House chief of staff as a literal fascist. On the other side, commentators debate whether Vice President Kamala Harris performed well enough at a CNN town hall to “close the deal.”

Seriously? Much of a double standard here?

Somehow, it is apparently baked into this campaign that Trump is allowed to talk and act like a complete lunatic while Harris has to be perfect in every way. I don’t know the answer to the chicken-or-egg question — whether media coverage is leading public perception or vice versa — but the disparate treatment is glaring.
-----
Let’s review: First, Harris was criticized for not doing enough interviews — so she did multiple interviews, including with nontraditional media. She was criticized for not doing hostile interviews — so she went toe to toe with Bret Baier of Fox News. She was criticized as being comfortable only at scripted rallies — so she did unscripted events, such as the town hall on Wednesday. Along the way, she wiped the floor with Trump during their one televised debate.
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Oops, there I go again, dwelling on the existential peril we face. Instead, let’s parse every detail of every position Harris takes today against every detail of every position she took five years ago. And then let’s wonder why she hasn’t already put this election away.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/10/24/harris-trump-cnn-town-hall/
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The double standard is because of Trump and has been the case for an entire decade where he gets away with behaving any way he wants. Just ask the likes of Cruz, Rubio, Jeb Bush, Lindsey Graham, Rand Paul, Hillary, Biden, DeSantis, and Haley about this. Of course, none of this absolves Harris from running a proper campaign by adequately defining herself (instead of allowing Trump to do it for her), being relatable to the general public, and offering a vision that is more appealing to voters than Trump’s populist demagoguery.
 
Antisocial said:
If they believe that Trump can somehow hurt the whole nation of China by a tariffs system they clearly don't understand then all the more reason for them to vote for him. So much of his appeal is the hate and vengeance narrative, it clearly motivates his base.
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He will disrupt and hurt global trade. All will lose but most the average American who will have to pay higher higher prices for imported good. Further it's very likely, American companies will increase prices as well. Why? Because they can when imported goods become more expensive.

Inflation will spike again and the whole economy will suffer as China (and Europe) won't let Trump's tariffs unanswered. It's lose lose for the people.

This isn't rocket science and I am puzzled Americans don't get it.
 
Raoul said:
The double standard is because of Trump and has been the case for an entire decade where he gets away with behaving any way he wants. Just ask the likes of Cruz, Rubio, Jeb Bush, Lindsey Graham, Rand Paul, Hillary, Biden, DeSantis, and Haley about this. Of course, none of this absolves Harris from running a proper campaign by adequately defining herself (instead of allowing Trump to do it for her), being relatable to the general public, and offering a vision that is more appealing to voters than Trump’s populist demagoguery.
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What’s funniest is that you can reduce the man to a pile of ash with the simplest lines of questioning.

I appreciate that the establishment media can’t do it, but there’s absolute space for someone to ask him things like;

“You’re talking about IVF. What does that stand for”
“You think Floridas abortion timelines are too short. What stage of foetal development constitutes life to you”
“What is going on with your hair? It looks insane to everyone and none of us can work it out”
“Do you think it’s weird that you stand on stage telling women to get their fat husbands off their couch. Is that hypocritical considering how overweight you are?
“Why do your suits fit so badly?”
“Can we take a look at one of your shoes? Everyone says you wear lifts and we’d like to put that to bed”

Or, just ask him to explain anything at all.

The man is an idiot. His brain doesn’t work, and crucially, he doesn’t understand anything and doesn’t care about anything
 
Raoul said:
The double standard is because of Trump and has been the case for an entire decade where he gets away with behaving any way he wants. Just ask the likes of Cruz, Rubio, Jeb Bush, Lindsey Graham, Rand Paul, Hillary, Biden, DeSantis, and Haley about this. Of course, none of this absolves Harris from running a proper campaign by adequately defining herself (instead of allowing Trump to do it for her), being relatable to the general public, and offering a vision that is more appealing to voters than Trump’s populist demagoguery.
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Just because it’s been happening for a decade doesn’t make it right. People should stop accepting it and be pointing it out every day.

Your particular brand of Fischer Price devils advocacy, where you pretend you are voting Harris, but then spend all day, every day criticising her and zero time every day criticising Trump, is a large reason the double standards persist.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
What’s funniest is that you can reduce the man to a pile of ash with the simplest lines of questioning.

I appreciate that the establishment media can’t do it, but there’s absolute space for someone to ask him things like;

“You’re talking about IVF. What does that stand for”
“You think Floridas abortion timelines are too short. What stage of foetal development constitutes life to you”
“What is going on with your hair? It looks insane to everyone and none of us can work it out”
“Do you think it’s weird that you stand on stage telling women to get their fat husbands off their couch. Is that hypocritical considering how overweight you are?
“Why do your suits fit so badly?”
“Can we take a look at one of your shoes? Everyone says you wear lifts and we’d like to put that to bed”

Or, just ask him to explain anything at all.

The man is an idiot. His brain doesn’t work, and crucially, he doesn’t understand anything and doesn’t care about anything
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It's scary that MAGA American's can't see this.
 
diarm said:
Your particular brand of Fischer Price devils advocacy, where you pretend you are voting Harris, but then spend all day, every day criticising her and zero time every day criticising Trump, is a large reason the double standards persist.
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Glad someone said it. Also, "Fischer Price devils advocacy". :lol:
 
diarm said:
Just because it’s been happening for a decade doesn’t make it right. People should stop accepting it and be pointing it out every day.

Your particular brand of Fischer Price devils advocacy, where you pretend you are voting Harris, but then spend all day, every day criticising her and zero time every day criticising Trump, is a large reason the double standards persist.
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Not gonna psychoanalyse Raoul, but I would say he wasn’t lying when he said he’s voting for Harris. The impression he has consistently given here is he’s a NYT/WaPo/CNN consumer who is steeped in the Beltway thinking who longs for the days of politicians appearing smooth and suave and eloquent while shutting down the government over budget preference. Basically the Caf’s version of Bret Stephens.

The disconnect of that type of thinking is evident when you look at the post townhall coverage on CNN, while the panel led by Dana Bash bashed Harris like Raoul did here, the undecideds voters panel led by John King said they were either leaning towards her or stayed unchanged (2/5 said they were decided, 1/5 said she would go Harris if she had to decide right there, 1 couldn’t make a decision, 1 said he couldn’t vote for her due to abortion, none of them said anything she said moved them towards Trump).
 
gaffs said:
So why not say you live in Mass? I asked you multiple times? Why post a couple of clips from a comedy show, which clearly has been created for laughs? Is that really a fair representation of 70+ million people?
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Asking where people live in the way you did is pretty weird behaviour, especially because it's information many people wouldn't want to give out, surely you weren't actually expecting an answer? You likely wouldn't have gotten one if you didn't get so explicit with your failed gotcha attempt (which was your obvious motive from the start).
 
diarm said:
Just because it’s been happening for a decade doesn’t make it right. People should stop accepting it and be pointing it out every day.

Your particular brand of Fischer Price devils advocacy, where you pretend you are voting Harris, but then spend all day, every day criticising her and zero time every day criticising Trump, is a large reason the double standards persist.
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Agree with this. It's a stupid argument to say "just accept it". We should never, ever accept it and we shouldn't accept it persisting. There's no moment where it's acceptable to just handwave this double standard.
 
Just woke up to read that 47% of young Norwegian men (aged 18 to 29) would vote for Trump. For the country as a whole the number is a measly 17% at least, but damn these are worrying numbers. Isn't this how Nazi Germany started?
 
Scandi Red said:
Just woke up to read that 47% of young Norwegian men (aged 18 to 29) would vote for Trump. For the country as a whole the number is a measly 17% at least, but damn these are worrying numbers. Isn't this how Nazi Germany started?
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That's a crazy number, to the point where it almost seems unbelievable.
 
Talk about "double standards" rings a bit hollow when Biden's brain was leaking out of his ears in real time and he would have undoubtedly gotten the vote of almost everyone here if he hadn't dropped out.
 
diarm said:
Just because it’s been happening for a decade doesn’t make it right. People should stop accepting it and be pointing it out every day.

Your particular brand of Fischer Price devils advocacy, where you pretend you are voting Harris, but then spend all day, every day criticising her and zero time every day criticising Trump, is a large reason the double standards persist.
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Oof :lol:
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Talk about "double standards" rings a bit hollow when Biden's brain was leaking out of his ears in real time and he would have undoubtedly gotten the vote of almost everyone here if he hadn't dropped out.
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But he didn't. He got removed because of exactly what you say.

So where's the double standard?
 
diarm said:
Just because it’s been happening for a decade doesn’t make it right. People should stop accepting it and be pointing it out every day.

Your particular brand of Fischer Price devils advocacy, where you pretend you are voting Harris, but then spend all day, every day criticising her and zero time every day criticising Trump, is a large reason the double standards persist.
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Give this man the $10,000
 
Pexbo said:
@Carolina Red says hello
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By American standards, Carolina Red is basically a communist.

I've not seen anything on here that would indicate Raoul would be voting Trump and, considering the rather blunt way he tends to put his point across on other matters on here, don’t really see a situation where he would be bothered to put up this facade either.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Talk about "double standards" rings a bit hollow when Biden's brain was leaking out of his ears in real time and he would have undoubtedly gotten the vote of almost everyone here if he hadn't dropped out.
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Almost everyone on here was saying it couldn't go on like that and wanted him to step down, so how does that ring hollow?
 
unchanged_lineup said:
But he didn't. He got removed because of exactly what you say.

So where's the double standard?
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I think the idea of a double standard for Trump is overstated. The majority of this double standard is partisanship, and if we are honest, we would admit that we all engage in it. Biden was incapable of serving another term as president, and yet if he'd stayed on he would have gotten at least 40% of the vote. Candidate quality is important and it can win or lose elections, but it doesn't swing the entire vote.

The subheading of that 'Harris/Trump double standard' article is "one candidate can rant about gibberish while the other has to be perfect." Does it have to be perfect? Perfect for what? Harris is currently running an extremely imperfect campaign, under less-than-ideal circumstances, and she is tied. If she was running in better circumstances or had a better campaign she might be winning more comfortably. No perfection needed.

It comes across as a refusal to accept that 'anyone but Trump' isn't going to be a landslide win by default.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I think the idea of a double standard for Trump is overstated. The majority of this double standard is partisanship, and if we are honest, we would admit that we all engage in it. Biden was incapable of serving another term as president, and yet if he'd stayed on he would have gotten at least 40% of the vote. Candidate quality is important and it can win or lose elections, but it doesn't swing the entire vote.

The subheading of that 'Harris/Trump double standard' article is "one candidate can rant about gibberish while the other has to be perfect." Does it have to be perfect? Perfect for what? Harris is currently running an extremely imperfect campaign, under less-than-ideal circumstances, and she is tied. If she was running in better circumstances or had a better campaign she might be winning more comfortably. No perfection needed.

It comes across as a refusal to accept that 'anyone but Trump' isn't going to be a landslide win by default.
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I'll stand corrected but this sounds incredibly disingenuous.

The 'perfect' is a rhetorical device, but the rhetoric is sound and was shown in the Biden 'expulsion' - Biden showed cases of mental decline, the media jumped on it (quite rightly I'll be honest) and it resulted in Biden being taken off the ticket. Trump regularly shows worse examples; cancelling events, being unable to answer basic answers, unable to put a cogent response together, and nothing gets said about it to anything like the extent of Biden's examples.

The countefactual is rarely helpful but if 'an opponent' (be it Harris or anyone else) was doing what Trump was doing, they'd be hounded off a ticket.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I think the idea of a double standard for Trump is overstated. The majority of this double standard is partisanship, and if we are honest, we would admit that we all engage in it. Biden was incapable of serving another term as president, and yet if he'd stayed on he would have gotten at least 40% of the vote. Candidate quality is important and it can win or lose elections, but it doesn't swing the entire vote.

The subheading of that 'Harris/Trump double standard' article is "one candidate can rant about gibberish while the other has to be perfect." Does it have to be perfect? Perfect for what? Harris is currently running an extremely imperfect campaign, under less-than-ideal circumstances, and she is tied. If she was running in better circumstances or had a better campaign she might be winning more comfortably. No perfection needed.

It comes across as a refusal to accept that 'anyone but Trump' isn't going to be a landslide win by default.
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It almost just comes down to Harris being a normal candidate and Trump being a crazy one. Since Harris is a middle-of-the-road centrist politician, she is being judged and criticized on stuff like town hall answers, media presence, policy prescriptions, etc. Meanwhile, Trump is a complete lunatic, so whatever criticism he gets is more likely to be about him praising Hitler's generals, dancing on stage for 30 minutes, or what other crazy stuff he gets up to. The negative stories about Trump will never be about him giving a non-answer at a CNN town hall, but that could very well happen for Harris. The problem, as you also point out, is naked partisanship and general desensitization to Trump's lunacy. In any kind of a fair world, Trump would have been binned a long time ago and Harris would be up against a normal war hawk, tax-cut Republican. But that isn't the world we are living in.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
The 'perfect' is a rhetorical device, but the rhetoric is sound and was shown in the Biden 'expulsion' - Biden showed cases of mental decline, the media jumped on it (quite rightly I'll be honest) and it resulted in Biden being taken off the ticket. Trump regularly shows worse examples; cancelling events, being unable to answer basic answers, unable to put a cogent response together, and nothing gets said about it to anything like the extent of Biden's examples.
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Liberal media and general commentariat was in serious denial about Biden's issues until the debate ruthlessly exposed them to the entire world. The only reason he was taken off the ticket is because it was impossible to continue the charade.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
I'll stand corrected but this sounds incredibly disingenuous.

The 'perfect' is a rhetorical device, but the rhetoric is sound and was shown in the Biden 'expulsion' - Biden showed cases of mental decline, the media jumped on it (quite rightly I'll be honest) and it resulted in Biden being taken off the ticket. Trump regularly shows worse examples; cancelling events, being unable to answer basic answers, unable to put a cogent response together, and nothing gets said about it to anything like the extent of Biden's examples.

The countefactual is rarely helpful but if 'an opponent' (be it Harris or anyone else) was doing what Trump was doing, they'd be hounded off a ticket.
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Only after the disastrous debate and polls showing a Trump win by landslide.

Otherwise, both the liberal media and the Dem party were in denial that something is wrong with Biden despite being obvious. And if he was not removed from ticket, he would have still gotten 70 million votes plus despite clearly being demented.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
The 'perfect' is a rhetorical device, but the rhetoric is sound and was shown in the Biden 'expulsion' - Biden showed cases of mental decline, the media jumped on it (quite rightly I'll be honest) and it resulted in Biden being taken off the ticket. Trump regularly shows worse examples; cancelling events, being unable to answer basic answers, unable to put a cogent response together, and nothing gets said about it to anything like the extent of Biden's examples.
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I loathe Trump, and even I don't think Trump has shown anything as bad or worse than what Biden showed at the debate, purely in terms of seeming old.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I think the idea of a double standard for Trump is overstated. The majority of this double standard is partisanship, and if we are honest, we would admit that we all engage in it. Biden was incapable of serving another term as president, and yet if he'd stayed on he would have gotten at least 40% of the vote. Candidate quality is important and it can win or lose elections, but it doesn't swing the entire vote.

The subheading of that 'Harris/Trump double standard' article is "one candidate can rant about gibberish while the other has to be perfect." Does it have to be perfect? Perfect for what? Harris is currently running an extremely imperfect campaign, under less-than-ideal circumstances, and she is tied. If she was running in better circumstances or had a better campaign she might be winning more comfortably. No perfection needed.

It comes across as a refusal to accept that 'anyone but Trump' isn't going to be a landslide win by default.
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Again.. BUT BIDEN DIDN'T STAY ON.

He got removed because a higher standard applies to him.

Trump displaying equal or greater cognitive issues is not held to the same standard.

Your hypothetical is pointless because it's literally not what happened in reality.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Liberal media and general commentariat was in serious denial about Biden's issues until the debate ruthlessly exposed them to the entire world. The only reason he was taken off the ticket is because it was impossible to continue the charade.
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.... But he WAS taken off the ticket.

Please stop. :lol:
 
Revan said:
Only after the disastrous debate and polls showing a Trump win by landslide.

Otherwise, both the liberal media and the Dem party were in denial that something is wrong with Biden despite being obvious. And if he was not removed from ticket, he would have still gotten 70 million votes plus despite clearly being demented.
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Yet another pointless hypothetical because reality exists.
 
Mike Smalling said:
I loathe Trump, and even I don't think Trump has shown anything as bad or worse than what Biden showed at the debate, purely in terms of seeming old.
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Swaying to music on stage for 30 minutes when he was meant to be doing a Q&A isn't as bad?

He has also made numerous gaffs with mixing up people and places that people eviscerated Biden for.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
Again.. BUT BIDEN DIDN'T STAY ON.

He got removed because a higher standard applies to him.

Trump displaying equal or greater cognitive issues is not held to the same standard.

Your hypothetical is pointless because it's literally not what happened in reality.
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Whose standards? He got removed, because it became clear to the Democrats that he would lose. The opposite is true for Trump - if the Republicans removed him, they would definitely lose.
 
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