İlkay Gündoğan Transfer Thread
- Thread starter Devil may care
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He was my pick from the summer poll and nothing has changed, we got our DM even if it wasn't the one I was hoping for, so now we need a creative CM and Gundogan is perfect as he also has a good work rate.
I'm not surprised everyone is negative on our chances though, I think we still have drawing power but no team or player are just gonna sell to us if we are not willing to match market value and the value on him will be high in both fee and wages, and sadly we seem to think we can dictate to the market.
I'm not surprised everyone is negative on our chances though, I think we still have drawing power but no team or player are just gonna sell to us if we are not willing to match market value and the value on him will be high in both fee and wages, and sadly we seem to think we can dictate to the market.
I think you missed my point. He has won one bundesliga, is he talented no doubt but lets wait and see what he can do over a few more years before declaring him one of the best in the world.
Fabregas won 1 F.A cup while at Arsenal, would you have debated he was 1 of the best in the world?
poor logicFabregas won 1 F.A cup while at Arsenal, would you have debated he was 1 of the best in the world?
World Cup Winner and two time European Championship winner
I don't see why it matters what he's won in his career so far when discussing how good he is at the moment. He's performed at a very high level for 2 seasons now, especially last season where he was world class. It's clear for anyone who watches him that he's undoubtedly a top player already.
World Cup Winner and two time European Championship winner
How many games did he actually play in those championships?. If Germany win the world cup in Brazil and Gundogan is part of the squad will that change your mind?.
You should not use titles as an excuse of how good a player is. Look at George Best etc...
We did ?
Measuring players by trophies they win is inaccurate anyway, there are still 10 other players on the pitch and if they're not up to it then you won't change much. Put Messi in Aston Villa team and they'd still not win anything.World Cup Winner and two time European Championship winner
Kinda proving my point with Gundogan arent you? Its a bit premature to call him one of the best in the world.
I'm not on either side here and not really arguing with you, just offering my opinion on that particular subject outside of the Fabregas v Gundogan comparison.
For me Gundogan needs to prove himself over a longer course of time to be considered at the same level as Fabregas. He had a good season but so did Sahin two years ago and now you'd hardly call him world class. I doubt that Gundogan is a one-season wonder and I fully expect him to prove his worth long term but in the meantime let's not get carried away.
Totally agree. From what I have seen of him he is undoubtedly talented but not as yet one of the best in the world.
How is he proving your point?
Gündogan played two seasons in a team capable of winning titles. He won two (championship and cup) in the first year and reached the CL final in the second. They also lost all titles in the second year to the by far best team in Europe, while being the only one to truly compete with them in direct confrontations, when the latter were on top of their game.
He is one of the best in the world, because there are maybe three or four players above his level right now in his position.
Nah, we shall see. Casts his hook out again
If I could cherry pick any midfielder from any team in the world as a United signing - this guy would be it. And I'm including the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas, Modric, Schweinsteiger, Martinez etc in that.
The reason? He's so perfectly suited to partner Carrick, is still young and already one of the worlds very best central midfielders. He's a winner and he's only going to get better.
Better stop dreaming.
Fellaini is more defensive than offensive, the reasoning on here to buy him was "He'll add steel" so yeah, I'd call him a DM, or at least closer to one than he is to a playmaker.
Fully agreed. He's got everything in his locker, is very complete despite being still young. With his strength and technical ability, he would be perfect for the EPL. Hope Moyes is willing to spend 23m on him!
Fabregas won 1 F.A cup while at Arsenal, would you have debated he was 1 of the best in the world?
I'm not saying I agree with Ramshock, but look at what has happened to Sahin, and to a much lesser extent Kagawa.
Both magnificent for Klopp, under that Dortmund system, but they've struggled to adjust outside of it. (and before the muppets jump on me, Kagawa's been injured and not been played in his favoured position etc. I agree).
Gundogan's class though. Would love him here. Anyone of Gundogan/Modric/Fabregas is a pipe dream though!
Sahin also struggled when playing for the turkish nationalteam, even during his brilliant time at Dortmund. Gündogan instantly looked great for Germany which lead to a huge discussion in the media if Germany needs Schweinsteiger anymore. Of course, Gündogan so far played only a few games for Germany but he instantly excelled in a different system. Sahin also was never carrying the team when they were struggling. He was the best player in a great working machine with tactics that surprised the whole league, but they crashed out of the Europa League and the domestic cup. Gündogan did so much more than that in the last 2 years.
I agree Balu, don't worry. I think Gundogan's on a different level to Sahin all together. I'm just trying to be objective about classing players as "world class" too easily. Though I'm failr confident Gundogan's going that way - if he's not there already.
I'd say he's about as central as they are so I wouldn't call a DM, Carrick is closer to a true DM than him.
Most of his best work is defensive and Carrick was often ahead of him against Palace. Tonight's game was an example of his biggest strength which is breaking up play, maybe call him a ball winner if not a DM, but he's certainly not an AM or a playmaker, we still need one of those.
I agree, I just meant to say that there is a category of midfielders considered not to be either DM or AM and I think he belongs there. In french they call it "mileu relayeur".
Well he is one of the best central midfielders in the world and the best young one.
"Milieu", spelling mistake.
Understood, my main point is as far as CM's that operate mainly in a defesnive role go we have now added one to Carrick, so it's time to get in a playmaker like we tried to do with Thiago, Fabregas and Herrara. Hopefully in the summer we blow our load on Gundogan as he's the very best option we can go for.
So where does he fit in? Carrick will play alongside Fellaini and A player like Gundogan would expect to start. I assume people see him as a repalcement for Carrick?
Carrick will be 33 by the start of next season, so I guess so yes.
Not to say Carrick will be gone and a new guy take his place. Any modern footballer understands rotation and a 23 year-old won't be worried about spending a season or two transitioning in place of a 33 year-old.
Carrick is 33 next year, if Gundogan is available we should do everything we can to sign him. Carrick can alternate with Fellaini, Gundogan with Cleverley.
Maybe that's the answer, although given that Carrick has done very well the last couple of seasons I'm not convinced that its a huge upgrade if Carrick has a good year this year and can still do the job.
Not sure a player will be happy to sit on the bench when he's a regular at a top European side mind.
This transfer will never happen. We couldn't fork out £40 million for Fabregas, a proven Premier League midfielder, so what makes you think we'll fork out a similar fee for this fella? Sorry lads.
Why are people getting their hopes up. When he does leave it will be to Spain
We're hoping some lessons were learned from the Fabregas transfer pursuit.
What's our track record of buying expensive midfielders from abroad? Anderson, Hargreaves, Veron? Might add weight to Moyes' apparent safe transfer policy.
Us not having a chance to sign him has naught to do with the transfer fee. Real and Barcelona have a certain romance attached to them these days, and if they come calling (and at least one of them will for Ilkay, probably Barcelona), then it's almost impossible to see a player join any other team.
This reminds of the Nuri Sahin thread - a lot of people reckoned he was the best thing since sliced bread and were wounded when he went to Real madrid for such a meagre fee, and presumably were equally wounded when he signed for Liverpool.
Thing is - Sahin was absolute dross in the PL. Some players excel in great sides and in a certain system. This lad looks a good player in the games I've seen him in but I dont see how anyone can call him one of the best in the world yet, and to command the sort of fee people are talking about.
The issue I see is that he plays relatively deep - an important position in a certain system. Moyes seems to like 4-5-1 so I think he'd be keener to spend the big money on players who are likely to have a bigger impact in the final third, especially when he has a ball player in Carrick at the moment - and especially if Rooney doesnt stay or the likes of Valencia, Young and Nani dont improve their form a bit.
Do you seriously believe if Barcelona had told us we could have Fabregas for £40m we'd have said no?
So Sahin was a complete failure for Liverpool, right? Good to know that you can judge a player after ten fecking games, whom three games he was played completey out of position and two as CM which were class (vs. Norwich and West Brom). So that leaves us with five poor games in a new league and system after not having played professional football in competitions for six months. Thank you very much.
This is not just directed at you, but everyone who likes to use Sahin as prime example for a player, who only works in one team. I would have no problem agreeing with them if Sahin would have actually gotten the time and chances to adapt. He played a grand total of 127 minutes for Real Madrid in the Primera Division. His year there was defined by injuries (missing most of the pre season and the whole start of the season) and lacking trust by Mourinho. Rodgers had the brilliant idea to shove Sahin in the attacking midfield, when he slowly got his foot on the ground in England. When that didn´t work (what a surprise!) he simply let him fall like a hot potato.
Then he came back to Dortmund and slowly got back into form. At this point in the season, he is one of their best players so far and able to replace the currently injured Gündogan. Must be the system right? While it is true that certain core ideas are the same, there are several strategic differences between the team 2010/2011 and 2013/2014, a lot of them actually because Sahin departed in the first place. But the players are the same, right? Players like Götze, Kagawa, Barrios... oh wait, they are not there anymore. But at least Kuba, Lewandowski and Großkreutz are still there. Well, the first two were actually reserve players for the most part and a far cry from the players they are now back then and the last one plays a different position now, but they are still there. Reus, Aubameyang, Hofmann, Mkhitaryan? All came after the originally left.
What I believe is the main reason, why Sahin plays on a different level at Dortmund than elsewhere? Trust by the coach. This is the biggest difference between Klopp and the other two in this topic.
Rule #77 of the Caf: Don't feck with Sphaero when it comes to German football, cause he'll feck you far worse.
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