So who should we be after and why?
İlkay Gündoğan Transfer Thread
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So who should we be after and why?
Even if that were the case, Gundogan is no Scholes in that respect either, so it should balance out.
I don't get how we can pair Carrick with Cleverley or Anderson but definitely not Gundogan.
We normally play with one defensive minded midfielder, and another attacking minded one. Both contribute to our defending but I can't for the life of me how you think any of our current midfielders(apart from carrick) do more defensive work than Gundogan.
He wouldn't face the same problems as Kagawa because he isn't like him. Kagawa is a lightweight no10 while Gundogan is an aggressive and strong box to box midfielder. Exactly what we need in this side considering how poor our ball movement has been in recent years.
If we want a solid midfield then we need a player who can tackle on a regular basis throughout the game and can intercept the ball. The two Benders excel in this area, Sven in particular has superb stats across the board in his defensive duties, Schneiderlin also excels in this area. Carricks very good at getting the ball, playing lots of passes, rarely giving it away and tends to clear the ball well (so his positioning is very good).
Tell you what, i'll merge those stats down to JUST defensive stats and you'll see what I mean. The problem we have at United and our midfield is that we don't have a player that does the dirty work. A player that breaks down the oppositions play, a DM. Is Gundogan really a DM? No he isn't, he plays alongside a very good DM who does the majority of the work for him, he still contributes to the defensive part of the game, just like Carrick contributes to United. But for me, Gundogan isn't good enough defensively to partner Carrick. It's that simple.
You watch Dortmund in their next game and you'll see what I mean about Gundogan (when he returns to fitness). Bender does all of the dirty work, he's a superb tackler and interceptor and he wins a bucket load of headers. I rate Schneiderlin at Southampton as one of the best DM's in our league and is certainly a player capable of making the step up and playing alongside Carrick.
I suppose the real question though is just how many seasons Carrick has left in him.
This is data from last season:
Again, these are all players that we've been linked too or are current cafmuppet wet dreams. I added Fabian Delph because he's playing very well at Villa this season and another young player in our league that tends to get overlooked. Gundogan has similar stats to Carrick across the board and if you compare him to more defensive minded players you'll see that he trails by some distance.
So really, the question comes down to whether you think we'd be defensively good enough with Gundogan partnering Carrick. I really think the answer to that is no. We'd still face the same problems we do today. But that's my opinion! Personally, i'd prefer Rakitic over Gundogan as he's a significant threat going forward while still pretty decent defensively and he'd probably end up being a bit cheaper. But personally, if I could choose any of the CM's on that list, I'd be picking Sven Bender everyday of the week. He'd be the perfect partner for Carrick and is only 24 so has plenty of years left in him.
Again, these are all players that we've been linked too or are current cafmuppet wet dreams. I added Fabian Delph because he's playing very well at Villa this season and another young player in our league that tends to get overlooked. Gundogan has similar stats to Carrick across the board and if you compare him to more defensive minded players you'll see that he trails by some distance.
So really, the question comes down to whether you think we'd be defensively good enough with Gundogan partnering Carrick. I really think the answer to that is no. We'd still face the same problems we do today. But that's my opinion! Personally, i'd prefer Rakitic over Gundogan as he's a significant threat going forward while still pretty decent defensively and he'd probably end up being a bit cheaper. But personally, if I could choose any of the CM's on that list, I'd be picking Sven Bender everyday of the week. He'd be the perfect partner for Carrick and is only 24 so has plenty of years left in him.
Tbh though even if Gundogan hasn't got the best defensive stats there's no reason he can't develop that part of his game but more importantly he'd give us much more creativity there than we currently have which might make teams more hesitant to have a go. I think his positioning is much better as well which is half the problem with clev, giggs and jones, sometimes they just go awol.
Interesting statistics, those. I've always wondered what kind of statistics others have had compared to Carrick, but are you seriously implying that we've no need for a top quality midfielder who can inject a bit of creativity from deep into the squad? While we do need someone to do the dirty work, we also need far more creativity, and most importantly, someone to improve ball retention. We're ok at it but could do far better. Cleverley's ok, Carrick's quite good and Giggs is ok, but we need to do far better. We lack imagination, and (personally) , I'd rather see us invest in some creativity than a "ball winner".
I think either would do, Carrick can be creative as feck, but not when he's the ball winner/safe outlet. Get one of them, and he can flex his creativity, get a creative player, he can play defensively.
That said, we need to be preparing to play without Carrick too.
This is data from last season:
Again, these are all players that we've been linked too or are current cafmuppet wet dreams. I added Fabian Delph because he's playing very well at Villa this season and another young player in our league that tends to get overlooked. Gundogan has similar stats to Carrick across the board and if you compare him to more defensive minded players you'll see that he trails by some distance.
So really, the question comes down to whether you think we'd be defensively good enough with Gundogan partnering Carrick. I really think the answer to that is no. We'd still face the same problems we do today. But that's my opinion! Personally, i'd prefer Rakitic over Gundogan as he's a significant threat going forward while still pretty decent defensively and he'd probably end up being a bit cheaper. But personally, if I could choose any of the CM's on that list, I'd be picking Sven Bender everyday of the week. He'd be the perfect partner for Carrick and is only 24 so has plenty of years left in him.
So from your 'stats' Micheal Carrick is fourth but we need someone who puts in more tackles for Gundogan to work? But the only other option we have is his current partner and Fabian Delph?! Am i the only one that thinks this a stupid analysis.
Eh? Can you read the stats properly? Schneiderlin, Sven Bender, Fabian Delph, Carrick, Lars Bender, Ivan Rakitic, Koke, Herrera, Clev and Cabaye all have better defensive stats than Gundogan. Not really sure where you took that summary from.
If you're referring to the tackling stat alone, then the following players have better stats than Carrick: Morgan Schneiderlin, Lars Bender, Ander Herrera, Sven Bender, Koke, Fabian Delph, Yohan Cabaye, Ilkay Gündogan.
I'm sure Hart was offended by the cheek of his Panenka peno.
I am forever baffled by how stats are clung on to when comparing players from different teams and leagues, i.e. playing styles and competitive standards. It's not baseball. It's a completely different and less statistics-friendly sport.
I'm sure Pirlo was offended by Hart being a shitc**t.
They give you a foundation Anto. They aren't definitive proof by any stretch of the imagination and you have to apply a bit of logic to them to make sense of them. Strength in league, Club playing style, Club strength etc. But it does give you an insight into the players strengths and weakness'. As I keep saying, it's my opinion. But it's opinion at least backed up with a bit of evidence to support it.
Eh? Can you read the stats properly? Schneiderlin, Sven Bender, Fabian Delph, Carrick, Lars Bender, Ivan Rakitic, Koke, Herrera, Clev and Cabaye all have better defensive stats than Gundogan. Not really sure where you took that summary from.
If you're referring to the tackling stat alone, then the following players have better stats than Carrick: Morgan Schneiderlin, Lars Bender, Ander Herrera, Sven Bender, Koke, Fabian Delph, Yohan Cabaye, Ilkay Gündogan.
Okay... So from the stats are best option for midfielders would be to get the Bender brothers??? Am i right?
You know the stats you are using are wrong when they state that Rakitic is better defensively than Gundogan. Rakitic is pointless in defence.
The problem with those stats is the give each and every part of the defending features equal importance. You can't tell me that you can say that not making fouls is as equally important defensively as tackling and intercepting.
The problem with those stats is the give each and every part of the defending features equal importance. You can't tell me that you can say that not making fouls is as equally important defensively as tackling and intercepting.
It depends precisely what we want from a midfielder. I think we lack a ball winner in midfield so i'd be leaning more towards a player with good defensive work. They don't need to be offensive because we have enough players who can win games on the pitch already. Personally, i'd see how much Schneiderlin would cost from Southampton, if he's cheaper than one of the Benders then i'd go for him as a budget option. That then frees up funds to go after a creative midfielder, i'd personally pick Rakitic for this role.
Would mean we'd need to get rid of Anderson, but I think the majority on the Caf knows that will happen anyway.
Those stats might be relevant if you were comparing CBs. But you're comparing CMs, who play completely different styles, roles and systems. Who have completely different physical attributes and on top of that you only look at 50% (at best) of the stuff that's expected of a modern CM.
By your analysis the best CM in the world for United would probably be Vidic.
By your analysis the best CM in the world for United would probably be Vidic.
That's down to reluctance - you're choosing to not accept these stats because they don't fit preconceived notion. Massive difference really.
Stats are good in some respects, like goals or assists, or the amount of group one covers in a game... Pretty much every other stat is relatively pointless. You can have player have a lower pass percentage then others, but that might be because they generally try trickier passes. Or you might have players with les tackles, but that might be because they close down space instead of getting stuck in, and force the opposition to do bad passes or just go backwards. Both are equally effective. The only way to truly judge a player, is to watch him. Stats, for the most part, don't tell anything useful. You can't quantify how much of an impact a player has had on the game, how important certain bits of play are compared to a normal 2 meter pass.
Other sports, like
Basketball or baseball, stats tell a lot. You can see they're batting percentage or whatever or they're free throw percentage. Doesn't work the same in football.
Anyways, gundogan is clearly a great midfielder and can be a world class one. He'd obviously be a great option for united, would instantly be the best midfielder in the league, comfortably.
Other sports, like
Basketball or baseball, stats tell a lot. You can see they're batting percentage or whatever or they're free throw percentage. Doesn't work the same in football.
Anyways, gundogan is clearly a great midfielder and can be a world class one. He'd obviously be a great option for united, would instantly be the best midfielder in the league, comfortably.
See previous page for full stats or simply click here. I was told to show just the defensive stats because the offensive stats weren't necessary! Now you're wanting the opposite.
Who would be better? Carrick? Definitely not. He's a very good player but no more then that. Maybe Yaya toure but he is really inconsistent, and sometimes just isnt too bothered. Once he adjusts I think he'd be pretty easily the best one in the league, he's got everything a top quality midfielder needs and is very good at most of those things. Only 23 years old as well.I rest my case. People really do overrate this guy. Christ.
That's true - and therein lies the problem with focusing too much on sheer stats. One or two critical involvements in a match may make all the difference - whereas ninety minutes of doing nothing wrong may mean...nothing at all. A player being wasteful in possession - which is something people focus a lot on these days - is not a problem as long as the player evens this out by creating chances which lead to goals, which again lead to winning the match.
Too many have preconceived notions about how a CM or DM or CAM or what have you is supposed to play, as if there is a formula which must be adhered to - when the reality is that teams set up differently and require different things from their midfielders, fullbacks, wingers and number tens.
Anyway - this lad, Gündogan, looks a very good player to me. I wouldn't mind us going for him. I think he could complement Carrick very well. To me what we lack too often in the "Carrick's partner" department is a blend of positional awareness (knowing what space to occupy at any given time) and mobility (the ability cover plenty of ground). Something like a box-to-box player would do me nicely. I think this lad could perform such a role for us very well.
So a player that averages 2.7 tackles and 2.6 interceptions is inferior defensively to a player who averages 1.6 tackles 1 interceptions? Make sense to you?
Anyways you just have to watch the players to see the differences in how they play. Rakitic is lightweight and hardly gets stuck in and works hard.
Why the need for massive hyperbole? I love Gündogan, he's been brilliant for Dortmund and I want him to start for Germany at the world cup. But he's still a young player with only 18 month of quality performances in that position as part of a very unique team. It's far from a certainty that he'll instantly be a success in a foreign league with a different style, especially now after being injured for a while, let alone 'comfortbaly the best midfielder in the league'. I'm sure he'll be a success in the longterm, but let's not forget, he also struggled a lot in his first 6 months at Dortmund.
True he's still young but I think it says more about the quality of the midfielders in the league. His only competition would be Toure and Carrick really, and I think he'd be better then both.
No your really just giving him too much credit... But he can be a top top player.
You're just looking at the stats to prove your point. Rakitic has better stats across the board and this season his tackles are up to 2.5 and his interceptions up to 2.67. So you don't really have a point tbh. You're basing your opinion on your love of Gundogan and dismissing other players talents. Fair enough, you obviously seem to rate him. I'll leave you guys to it.
Ramsey looks right now as big a talent as Gündogan for example and is already playing on a comparably high level throughout the year. Yeah, the premier league right now lacks a bit of quality in CM and Gündogan is talented enough to become one of the standout midfielders, if he adapts well, but 'instantly' and 'comfortably' is massive hyperbole.
I would agree they help give you an X-ray of strengths and weaknesses for a particular player, how he goes about stuff, etc. It is when they are used to compare en masse across players where I think it all goes to shit. I don't give a rats if one has 2.67 and the other has 1.8 tackles per game if they play for different teams in different leagues.
My first degree was in economics and finance but I don't need to go there, only need to go to primary school and how my teacher used to say you can't add or subtract apples and bananas.
Aye, this is the root of the disagreement, I think the large majority of us wants someone in midfield who is defensively sound (sound enough to make a midfield two work) but primarily someone who can help manage the tempo and dictate play a fair bit. Not necessarily a Scholes or Pirlo, but someone who is more adventurous and a vast improvement on our other options when it comes to linking defence and attack.
If you want a ball-winner play Jones there, he'll do.
Whatever happened to judging a player by watching him play?
Don't ever go into management Antohan. The pears might thump your apples.
At least he's improved his defensive work. We'll see if it holds up for the season. The fact is that's factors don't have the same amount of importance when it comes to defending.You're just looking at the stats to prove your point. Rakitic has better stats across the board and this season his tackles are up to 2.5 and his interceptions up to 2.67. So you don't really have a point tbh. You're basing your opinion on your love of Gundogan and dismissing other players talents. Fair enough, you obviously seem to rate him. I'll leave you guys to it.
His defensive work in 10/11 and 11/12 was similar to this season. So it's a moot point really. You're telling me that clearances, blocking shots, aerial battles and allowing players to run past you isn't key techniques to defending? The only one that I agree isn't that important is the foiling stat, although that does tell you the ability of the players tackling.
Either way, this is wildly offtopic. So quit replying to my posts
Redsky can I take it that you believe Carrick has enough creativity himself to be that spark in midfield we are lacking?
His defensive work in 10/11 and 11/12 was similar to this season. So it's a moot point really. You're telling me that clearances, blocking shots, aerial battles and allowing players to run past you isn't key techniques to defending? The only one that I agree isn't that important is the foiling stat, although that does tell you the ability of the players tackling.
Either way, this is wildly offtopic. So quit replying to my posts
I'm saying those things don't count the same which is what the table implies. Surely you can see the fault in the logic that not making fouls is as valuable as tackling when it comes to defending, surely?His defensive work in 10/11 and 11/12 was similar to this season. So it's a moot point really. You're telling me that clearances, blocking shots, aerial battles and allowing players to run past you isn't key techniques to defending? The only one that I agree isn't that important is the foiling stat, although that does tell you the ability of the players tackling.
Either way, this is wildly offtopic. So quit replying to my posts
I don't think anyone realistically has the time to watch so many different midfielders in so many leagues. I would expect most people in a Gundogan thread to have watched him, but the moment people start comparing with Rakitic, Pjanic and Schneiderlin you either have too much in your hands or resort to stats.
I agree they are a very poor proxy for the real thing, particularly in midfield.
I did pretty well, thank you very much. Actually, one of the main reasons I did very well was everyone was trying to make sense of an EMEA business centrally through data, while I just got out there, understood the markets and their dynamics, knew when the data was nonsense and was willing to put my neck on the line without the data backing me.
Every numpty around can gather and interpret data rationally, decision-making though is a completely different cup of tea.
PS: That's incidentally why I'm dogshit at WW, I need the human element and firsthand contact, a clusterfeck of posts by different people I don't know at all is a fecking nightmare to go on.
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