it's the "fifa-isation" of transfers. People seemingly think any player should want to play for any club because we have money.
Álvaro Morata | Chelsea player
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it's the "fifa-isation" of transfers. People seemingly think any player should want to play for any club because we have money.
Yeah hopefully. Lets get Morata done and then put a banner across OT saying "come home Ronaldo". With a picture of fergie, arms open, underneath it. That should wind perez up a bit.
I was going to post this yesterday. It's fecking hilarious. It's like you're playing a completely different sport over there.
I agree with this. I don't know why some fans are adamant that he will be a star just because he plays for Real Madrid.
To be fair this is partially true. If enough money is thrown at a club and a player then there is a very good likelihood they will sign. Whether once they arrive they will be happy and perform at the top of their game is another matter. Look at DiMaria for example who ended up at United because of money and was never happy. Going a bit further back look at the Robinho transfer to City, he didn't even really know which club he'd signed for, it was a signing done in haste because of money.
Some good points.
I actually thought being in the CL we would go for the top, top players.
Would appear we are going a level below for each position.
It's hard to believe that Matic, Persic and Morata would be our 1st choice targets.
It's fecking hilarious. It's like you're playing a completely different sport over there.
It's a real thing! If UN-proven people get tackled in the PL, they break into a million pieces. Fact. Like Saddam Hussein in Hot Shots 2.
The players produced may be excellent technically, but as someone who watches the French league each week, it's clear that it is miles lower in intensity and 'strength in depth' than the Premier league, Serie A or La Liga.
You have 2-3 big teams, with the inherent local rivalries, but a large number of very much 'lower' level teams (no disrespect to them, but I am thinking of the underdog teams like Guingamp, Anger, Rennes. Attendance is much lower each week across all divisions (most League 1 grounds are ~18,000 capacity and never full), and unless you play for PSG or OM, the media intrusion and pressure is nothing compared to the other Euro leagues.
It is not disrespectful to say that being a superstar in the French league is not a guarantee of excelling in the Premier league.
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You can't judge a player based on which league they play, especially when the league is strong like French league, that's my point.
Umm... He was wanted at Juve. Since you clearly don't follow him (or Juve), here's how it went. In his second season, Juve played him a lot less than they'd have wanted, in the hope that Madrid would not exercise the buy-back if they felt he was not worth it. This dented his own confidence as well as he endured a tough run. He recovered well though and Madrid took him back knowing they'd sell for far more than they paid in the buy-back. He didn't want to return and Juve didn't want him to leave.
24 actually and he's had "one good season" only if you consider it a bad season for a guy to be a pivotal member in a run to the CL finals scoring in all the later stages (including the finals) against the biggest teams in the world.
Well, so many things "could go wrong" with just about anything! Injuries, illnesses, personal tragedies... And why would he want to "go back to Spain"? Why must this be assumed? Torres loved Atleti and became a star at Liverpool; didn't hear him whinge. Same for Mata, Herrera and co. Also, Morata has history on his side. He didn't want to leave Juve and has said this multiple times. He was forced to leave. And he'd be coming here by choice.
Ronaldo (Cristiano) always wanted to go to Real and kept flirting. Didn't stop us from loving every moment he was here and I don't think any fan in his right mind would say they would have wanted it any other way with the decision to buy him.
Ummm... Or maybe because we've actually seen him play a lot and are basing opinions on a prolonged exposure to his talent as opposed to reading opinions of some random hacks that would have you believe only "Ingerlish grit" can help you succeed in the PL?
Last year, Ibra kept us in the hunt and this was after he missed a boatload of chances. Morata (I am stating this since you clearly do not seem to have seen him play) is far more clinical, more mobile and also assists equally in build-up play. Oh, and he's no midget so is a big physical presence as well. He's also better than any striker we have on the roster, so yes, he will be expected to start and to take us up a level. That's what class players do, you know.
OK. So the man who took less than 90 minutes per goal is not a reliable scorer...despite having scored goals in just about every situation going in domestic leagues and Europe, but Lukaku - he with the first touch of a bag of cement and the hold-up and link play of a Bebe - is? Wow! Nice one mate. Guess the next line is "PL proven"? Because Lukaku is such a reliable scorer in the tight games against the best teams?
So, you think Morata is not worth it because he's had "one good season" but Mbappe is because he's had...half a good season? Rrrright. And this of course assumes that Mbappe (by all accounts a Ronaldo and Madrid fan) would want to come to United over Real. Good stuff. Oh and all this without really knowing what we're actually paying and in what structure, for Morata...
Yup. Finally a point we agree on.
Totally agree with this. I still want us to sign him, but it's mostly out of desperation since we really need a striker. Even then, I don't expect him to score more than 20 goals in a season. His price tag is also a concern, even if today's market is crazy.
Are you saying you'd be happy with someone who scores in the easier games and bottles all the big ones? How's that going to get us to a league title or a CL final (which has got to be a goal for a club of our size)?
And that's problem. Your analysis is simply bad because you don't judge by the league a player is playing in, while you can take it into account in your judgement it can't be the base of it. If you are used to watch Ligue 1, you will know who is good and who isn't despite their status in the league and the teams they are playing for.
For example, you have players like Moukandjo who are good ligue 1 players who will score goals regularly and find themselves at the top of goalscorers stats but he is exclusively a Ligue 1 player, everyone knows that, same with Germain.
To understand the league people need to understand this simple fact, in France the talent pool is pretty much always the same, the difference is the experience, talented players with experience leave the league to be replaced by players as talented but without experience which is why french teams always struggle in Europe.
I agree with @Rado_N completely. As though the EPL is the pinacle of football. One day we might see another CL win. Can't exactly say last season was exciting. Final day was a complete non-event.
It's fecking hilarious. It's like you're playing a completely different sport over there.
I think the issue is actually that it isn't the pinnacle of football - as in, it's rougher and faster and players are less protected.
Another undeniable point is that different leagues have different styles/identities, and that some players are better suited to one league's traits than another.
It seems odd to find this hard to understand. Especially from supporters who've watched Falcao and di Maria (both quality players) demonstrate quite clearly the worth of 'PL Proven' players.
SAF valued this quality very strongly also.
Personally I don't think the premier league is as favourable for luxury players like Ozil.
Maybe, but people are writing players off as not PL proven before they even have a chance to prove that they are.
If we are going to go on that basis then Lukaku is the only option for all the top PL clubs and Everton would be entitled to 100m as PL proven seems to double someones price.
Yup. The failures of Van Nistelrooy, Bergkamp, Overmars, Pires, Torres, Aguero, Suarez, Ronaldo, Costa, Mata, Herrera, Vidic, Evra, Vieira, Henry, Sanchez (Alexis) et al prove your point to be indubitably true.
Quite apart from the fact that Lukaku too is the epitome of the home-grown English lad.
What's that you said? Oh...
Di Maria still finished with 10 assists in his one season in the PL and Falcao was still overcoming a major injury.
I think the backlash against PL proven is weirder than the concept itself.
It seems obvious that players have different skill sets and qualities, and may struggle to adapt to a league and style that is different. That's true for the Premier League, but also La Liga, Serie A and the Bundesliga.
Signing players who have proven they can perform in the league you play in is always going to be an attractive quality and makes the signing lower risk. It might even tempt you to pay a higher price for that lower risk.
That doesn't mean that players will be a guaranteed success, far from it, or that players that haven't played in the Premier League shouldn't be signed, but it is at least a useful indicator that the player is suited to playing in the League the you play in.
Of course people go too far with it, but that doesn't mean that it should be thrown out completely.
It seems obvious that players have different skill sets and qualities, and may struggle to adapt to a league and style that is different. That's true for the Premier League, but also La Liga, Serie A and the Bundesliga.
Signing players who have proven they can perform in the league you play in is always going to be an attractive quality and makes the signing lower risk. It might even tempt you to pay a higher price for that lower risk.
That doesn't mean that players will be a guaranteed success, far from it, or that players that haven't played in the Premier League shouldn't be signed, but it is at least a useful indicator that the player is suited to playing in the League the you play in.
Of course people go too far with it, but that doesn't mean that it should be thrown out completely.
My point being that Rom's worth (to other PL clubs) is increased because he's well proven in the PL - not that other players shouldn't be signed, or preferred over PL proven ones.
I said that players who are already PL proven have got added worth - as is the case with all the players you listed.
You seem to've missed the point.
I think this misses some of the point, I think its more about signing players that fit the teams style and way of playing football. For instance Schneiderlin IMO didn't work at United because he didn't have the qualities for possession football that LVG was after.
I don't really believe that players fail because of the league as much as players fail because they are playing for the wrong team/setup/manager.
I think its too simplistic to blame the league.
I don't agree. I think Schneiderlin failed because he doesn't have the right skill set for a Manchester United centre midfielder. He thrived in the open games mid-table teams tend to have against each other where they both think they can win, but ultimately lacked the quality to thrive in the open games United have against better teams. Against teams that sit back, which is something close to about 90% of the games we play he lacked the craft and guile to break teams down.
Mourinho showed no signs of thinking Schneiderlin was good enough, and ultimately that's why he didn't make it here. Even Fellaini, much maligned as he is and probably a worse all-round player than Schneiderlin, outlasted him because he has skills that can be of use.
No amount of being 'PL proven' is going to make a player who isn't good enough be a good signing, but it can be a useful barometer that they possess the attributes to perform in the League.
Yes you're right, it is important to sign players that fit the style, but that's a given and I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
While the aforementioned did make the transition to varying degrees of success, there were a great many others who failed to adapt to the high intensity and high physicality of the premier league.
There is always an element of risk involved when purchasing a player outside the prem, particularly for South Americans for whom it is a complete lottery as to whether they will acclimatize or not. Some make it here, some don't, but let's not pretend that making the transition to the prem is not an issue as it quite clearly is.
The other point to add is the mentality of the player, and the pressure they've played under at their previous club, PL or otherwise.
There's a big difference in playing for Southampton vs United, in terms of the expectation and pressure on your shoulders. Heck, there's a big difference between playing for United, and playing for the likes of Everton or Spurs. Schneiderlin didn't have that mentality to cope with playing for United. There's no big evidence that Lukaku, despite his good goal scoring in the Premier league, has the mentality to play for United. In fact, his big game record ain't very good.
That's why Morata, despite not being 'PL proven' has less risk because there are no question marks about his mentality and ability to cope with playing for a huge club as he's been in Juventus and Madrid and has a record of turning up in the big games and scoring.
The majority of the top players in the PL are foreign so more than enough make the transition.
Yeah, just like when Torres was PL proven at Liverpool but then at Chelsea he wasn't anymore.
Or wait, maybe it's just that some players have difficulties adapting to a particular team instead of a league... Nah nevermind, that'd be too crazy.
Or wait, maybe it's just that some players have difficulties adapting to a particular team instead of a league... Nah nevermind, that'd be too crazy.
Yes this is what I was getting at
Torres needed 2 knee surgeries and was never going to be the same player after that. Regardless of whether he continued for Liverpool, switched to Chelsea or Madrid.
Yes exactly.
I imagine it as something of a checklist. You have a list of qualities you're looking for in a player. The main one is 'is he good enough?' if you tick that one off you move on to the others 'does he fit the team?' 'is he mentally strong enough?' etc.. 'can he perform in the Premier League?' is one of them, and having evidence they can is a nice a one to be able to tick off, but not the be all and end all.
I'm not convinced Morata ticks the 'is he good enough?' box, but time will tell.
He was shit at Liverpool before Chelsea signed him for a good six months. The signs were there that constantly being rushed back from injuries had caught up with him, Chelsea just didn't see them.
Agreed. Good points.
Obviously there is an element of risk associated with any transfer, regardless of where they played their football previously and with whom. There are many variables to consider that we fans perhaps take for granted. The majority of us run on the assumption that if so and so scored x amount of goals for that club, it stands to reason he can do the same for us. When in reality it just isn't that simple.
As a lot of others have mentioned (so I won't belabour the point), it's about the style and fitting in with the manager's preferences far more than the team. The vast majority of top-tier players are from overseas. Not just that, they're bought from outside leagues. Barely a handful of players are making it to the top-tier from youth ranks within the country any more and even those that are, come in their late teens largely from other countries.
As for the whole "South American" discrimination, frankly I just don't get it. Firstly, South America is not a tiny little land mass with a uniform climate and the same lifestyle and culture. Also, the failure of a handful of high-profile South American players should really not be converted into a blanket rule.
Let's not mince words here, not once have I discriminated against South American players nor implied as such, I simply stated that players from that region must also contend with the drastic climate change, as well as prems high intensity and physical demands.
The climate is as uniform as it gets, relatively speaking.
It is not like Mbappe will choose Utd if Real don't buy him. He has shown no interest in Utd.
Nothing new here, but worth a quick read:
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ester-united-transfers-alvaro-morata-13221996
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ester-united-transfers-alvaro-morata-13221996
The Chicharito posts are so stupid, we had a world class peak Rooney back then and later on RvP, Chicharito alone would never be enough if you want to achieve certain heights. As will Morato alone probably not be enough (although he's a much better player than Chicha). Saying we need goals vs Minnows, yes, but where are our goals vs top teams with Ibra gone? Where will the won matches come from which were a result of Ibra's sheer class? Mourinhi's attacking plan is mostly clueless and was heavily reliant on Ibra and Pogba, can Morata reach such a level? Highly doubt it, more an excellent striker in the right system then a star who shines wherever he is like Ibra I think.
If and when we get morata, I agree he alone is not everything we need to solve our goal scoring or creative problems. But there is a good chance we may be in for griezmann again next year, who could play as left sided center forward along with morata. That to me sounds like a very viable solution
Zlatan scored in 2 big games only this season. Morata has previously scored against City, Real, Barca in CL and made the known great assist against Bayern. In fact he was known at Juve as a big games player.
Two big games? Am I missing something here?
He scored against City and Liverpool.
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