I have a feeling Adam will be their best signing. There's a lot of creativity with him and Gerrard in the team together.
Downing to Liverpool?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to talk about United's dreadful home defeat at the hands of Big Ange's Tottenham Hotspur. Should this have been the end of Ten Hag? How long does he actually have left? And does Nik finally want ETH out?!
It's not exactly the best central midfield pairing, though, presuming they are going 442.
It's potentially good as most I'd say.
They don't have wingers to go 4-4-2. Unless of course they buy a couple.
Is right.
Lucas is by far their most important CM and who gives them the right balance. They'd be getting picked off with ease with a Gerrard-Adam pairing. Adam would certainly add depth to their squad though, which I think we all acknowledge is one of their biggest failings over the last few seasons.
People write off Arsenal every summer but they always finish in the top 4. I'd put good money on them finishing higher than Liverpool, they're still stronger in almost every department. I'd say both are unlikely to get close to the top 3, and Spurs will probably be on a similar level to Liverpool, if not a little higher.
My Sunderland mate says Henderson is nowhere near good enough for a top 4 side.
Am also far from convinced that Adam isn't fat and shit.
Am also far from convinced that Adam isn't fat and shit.
I don't disagree with that, but if you take the form of the 3 teams in the second half of the season in the context of what they had at their disposal, surely you would agree that Dalglish did significantly better than either of the other 2.
Liverpool are on the up, Carragher may be on the way down, but he is a vital leader and organiser in front of a WC keeper. Gerrard may have been injured last year but very few of the England team who played in the WC had great seasons last year. Look at Rooney, Lampard and Terry.
There is no more reason to suggest that Gerrard will not be fit and fully motivated to lead Liverpool's charge this season, than Lampard and Terry at Chelsea.
Liverpool are currently addressng their lack of depth, despite coping pretty well under the same circumstances last season. They also do not face the prospect of losing their best player.
Furthermore i don't see how Liverpool were struggling for goals. They have Suarez, Carroll and Kuyt who are all capable of scoring. While Arsenal only have RVP and all of Spurs strikers struggled badly last year. I can see the logic of your view, but would point out that many of those problems Liverpool have had seemed much less evident under Dalglish than under the previous managers. I personally don't think it will take much improvement from Liverpool, especially with their numerous new additions to overhaul Spurs and Arsenal for 4th spot this season.
What would it take to convince you? Maybe being a standout performer for a newly promoted club, both scoring and making goals, showing good vision and quality on the ball and delivering a consistently fantastic quality of set piece delivery. Oh wait.............
I am convinced Charlie Adam is not world class, but he doesn't have to be to be a decent signing for someone like Liverpool. One thing i am certain of, is he is is far from fat and shit.
I can see a possible 4-5-1/4-3-3 for Liverpool. Carroll up front, Suarez right and Downing left, with a midfield 3 of Lucas/Henderson, Adam/Meireles and Gerrard. Not the best but much more variety than they had last season.
If they did go 4-4-2 i would think that Lucas and Gerrard, or Henderson and Gerrard would be the choice. Can't really see any scenario where 2 predominantly attacking players for any team, not just Liverpool, could be consistently effective as a central pairing.
Jimmy Bullard was a standout for Wigan and that didn't make him good enough for Liverpool. And he was a team player not one who had a team built around his strengths with plenty of flaws that were just essentially ignored for the sake of attractive football. I'd imagine Charlie Adam's far from the only player to excel for a relegated team and not all of them were good enough for a team in the top 6.
What would it take to convince you? Maybe being a standout performer for a newly promoted club, both scoring and making goals, showing good vision and quality on the ball and delivering a consistently fantastic quality of set piece delivery. Oh wait.............
I am convinced Charlie Adam is not world class, but he doesn't have to be to be a decent signing for someone like Liverpool. One thing i am certain of, is he is is far from fat and shit.
To be fair, it's probably sensible strategy to build a squad to take them to the top four rather than going straight for a title-winning, CL-level team.
With your last point, are you saying you're certain that he's far from [fat and shit], or certain that he's far from fat and also that he's far from shit? I don't see how you can be certain that Adam's far from fat.
"The fee for Torres was dependent on what Newcastle asked for Carroll," Henry told The Guardian. "The negotiation for us was simply the difference in prices paid by Chelsea and to Newcastle. Those prices could have been �35million [from Chelsea for Torres] and �20million [to Newcastle for Carroll], 40 and 25 or 50 and 35. It was ultimately up to Newcastle how much this was all going to cost. They [Newcastle] made a hell of a deal. We felt the same way."
You could see the logic at the lower prices. But surely once you realise you can get 50m for Torres, you have to stop and think 'Am I really going to spend 35m of it on Carroll?".
A fair point i suppose, but then again Bullard never attracted interest from clubs such as Utd and Liverpool either. So it is not me who is suggesting that Adam is good enough, it is some managers from top 6 clubs themselves.
All i am doing is pointing out that he is clearly not 'fat and shit', or managers of that ilk would not be touting him in the first place. He is quite clearly a talented player with the time on his side to improve further. Which is also in contrast to Bullard who was in his late 20's before showing such consistently good form.
I'm no businessman, but that's fecking retarded logic from Henry.
I just sold my car, and bought a bike. If I'd got 700 quid more than I expected for the car, I still wouldn't have shelled out a grand for the bike.
I just sold my car, and bought a bike. If I'd got 700 quid more than I expected for the car, I still wouldn't have shelled out a grand for the bike.
I was simply grouping the description as you did. But if you were to pin me down to it, then i would claim much more vehemently that he is not shit, more than i would he's not fat.
I can't argue with that.
I'd agree, he gets a bit of a rough ride on here purely due to the incredibly high expectations of United fans - in some fans' opinions if they're not top class they're shit. A terrible attitude in my view, part of the reason why United fans have a reputation for being arrogant. Not just that, but at a time when people feel United are screaming out for top class in midfield people have become very critical of pretty much every midfielder in the planet linked with us (or already with us, even).
I think Adam's shown genuine talent and if he's willing and able to work on the areas that he most needs to improve -which largely all revolve around his mentality/attitude - then he could do well and progress nicely. None of us are really in any kind of position to judge whether he will though, probably even Dalglish will have questions about whether he can mould him into a top club player with the right mentality. It's definitely a risk but I do think it could be very rewarding.
You're wrong about Bullard, though. He was the exact same age when he made his PL debut and won the Championship POTY the year previous (something I don't think Adam did). I happen to think Adam's better but that's not the point and I've seen far less of Adam than I have of Bullard.
Agreed. Elite club snobbery i like to call it. A distinct lack of objectivity and self indulgant bias, combined to promote largely inaccurate viewpoints for the main purpose of stoking their own feeling of superiority by smugly dismissing the credibility of others.
Yes as you say impossible to predict with any certainty, but many have alluded to his lack of workrate and stamina. But in his defence when you are the main creative force there is a responsibility to influence as often as possible. The team is set up so Adam can concentrate on what he does best and others do the defending for him. Unfortunately Blackpool didn't really get that balance right often enough.
I think Adam can silence some of his critics simply by showing more intelligence selecting when to rampage forward, this will save his energy and make him more effective later in the game. I feel he can get fitter but i don't think he was particularly unfit, as he often ran back and forth continually early on in games, before running out of steam after an hour or so.
Fair point.
It's not snobbery it's just realism. Very few players are good enough to make a real difference to top four clubs. You see it writ large with a player like Milner.
City is a terrible example though. Who knows what their players could be if they played in a side with anything resembling proper cohesion.
Be that as it may, it still doesn't make them "shit" or the joke figures they are made out to be. Nobody on here ever had a bad word to say about Adam until he was linked with Liverpool, then he became an overnight fatty, who ain't good enough, and who's a symbol of Liverpool willing to pay premiums(despite only costing £10m max himself).
There is that snobbery when judging a player from supporters of the bigger club's, but there is also bias born out of dislike for a player's club/club he looks likely to join. I think this plays a big part in the ridiculing of Adam that we see so frequently on here.
So going by that theory, clubs like Liverpool are stuck in a catch 22 then. We need better players to get into the top 4, but the better players, will more often than not, opt for a top 4 side.
Don't you think people are overlooking the quality of the manager in all this ?. After all, the sum part is far more important than the individual components that make the actual part - Kenny proved on more than one occasion last year that he can get ordinary footballers to play to a higher level than probably befits their reputation & ability. The one thing that was lacking, through no fault on his part, was the lack of quality on the bench to change things when changes were needed in games where we fell behind, or were struggling to make a breakthrough.
The signing of a decent left-winger could be crucial if we are to break back into the top 4. Our 2 best seasons in The Premier League came when we had the likes of Harry Kewell (2006) & Albert Riera (2009) play a part in us achieving points total of 82 & 86 respectively. A lot of people put our demise over the past 2 seasons partly down to the loss of Alonso. But due to injuries to the likes of Riera & Aurellio, we've had about as much penetration down the left side as a eunuch in a nunnery. So if Downing does sign. Then along with a decent left-back (& Aurellio for cover when fit), plus a left-footed Charlie Adam (assuming he signs). Then this should give us a greater balance, & a far greater threat than anything we've had for the past 2 years.
People are definitely overlooking Dalglish and also the contribution that hungry players with someone to prove can bring. Downing and Adam might not offer the quality that will see Liverpool be favourites against Barcelona but they will see this as their big chance and be anxious to make the most of it. There is definitely something to be said for having players who are grateful and happy to play for you. Which is where City are going wrong by prostrating themselves over Sanchez.
Nonsense. Adam was linked with us before Liverpool and got all sorts of criticism at the time.
He said the same thing in the Henderson thread IIRC. Just another instance of a person making false stuff just to prove that he is more objective than other fans.
Also what is this Daglish factor that people are talking about, he just had a half of the season in which the majority of the matches were played without pressure, the last two matches in which Liverpool needed to get something to qualify for Europe, they were outplayed by both Villa and Spurs.
Let's see what he can do next season when there is loads of some expectations on him, if he does well then maybe the "Daglish Factor" can come into play.
Ferguson makes a lot of good purchasing decisions. But did you worry about his sanity when he signed Veron?
That's a truly rubbish comparison. Veron at the time was one of the the best midfielders on the planet. Andy Carroll is not even one of the best forwards in England at the moment.
Veron was one of the best midfielders in the world, leading Lazio to the Serie A title. Carroll is a totally unproven 22 year old striker from Newcastle with a reputation for punching and glassing people.
Let me reassure you Henry is a businessman. Apparently, he's got millions in his bank account doing this businessmanning malarky. :handshake:
So was Hicks.
No, he was a conman and reknown for it before he even came to Liverpool (his South American football team's fans were up in arms at the time). We all obviously chose to blindside that aspect to our own huge detriment.
Yeah I did, in the Adam thread though and not for the reasons you seem to think. Fact is that we laugh at some of their players/potential signings despite previous admirations stated on here(in Henderson's case) and/or players(in Adam's case)who Fergie has praised highly(he said he was one of the PL's most gifted players last September or about that time, before Liverpool or ourselves were even rumoured to be interested in him). I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to work out that our bias against all things Liverpool can lead to one or two prematurely dismissing and mocking players that they have or may end up there.
Now, I'm not saying that every post with an anti-Henderson/Adam sentiment is borne out of spite for Liverpool, some may genuinely not rate the people they've brought into their club, but I'm pretty sure that if they ended up here, you'd see a very different reaction to those players.
I used the Owen example when I mentioned this in the Adam thread that you picked up on, and I'll use it again...If Liverpool had re-signed Owen on a free back in 2009, the vast majority would have dismissed it as Liverpool going backwards and signing a player also going backwards in terms of his career trajectory, if someone like City or Chelsea had signed him, many would have laughed their tits off that they'd gambled on a guy who'd spent the majority of the previous few seasons injured/out of form in a side that got relegated, yet when we did the deal, it was a "Fergie masterstroke", "proven goalscorer who'll thrive here" etc. The truth is/was probably somewhere between those two trains of thought.
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that as football supporters, we can be quite fickle at times and too extreme in our views either way, which is a consequence of bias or affiliation with a certain club. Charlie Adam probably embodies that tendency better than anyone, he's not the wonderful player who's left foot is going to deliver CL football like some Scouse fans would have you believe, but by the same token, nor is he a fat, one trick pony who's below playing for an ambitious PL club like some on here would tell you. The truth as with Owen and many other opinions, is somewhere in between.
Carroll's goalscoring record suggests Liverpool overpaid by £25m. Anyway, I'm more than a tad please 'Kin Kenny's purchasing average British players for astronomical amounts.
£32 million 10 years ago is what in today's money? Worth a Torres now?
A player is only worth what teams are willing to splash on him, Spurs were willing to open the chequebook at £20-£25 million for Carroll. And that was just the starting bid(s).
Well I hope he continues applying the same logic to buying and selling Liverpool's assets.
Carroll was overpriced but he will be good for Liverpool. I really like him, he's got bundles of talent. Man of the match at the Emirates for Newcastle this year, I thought. Him and Suarez up top has danger written all over it.
That'll explain why you welcomed him and his mate so warmly and looked upon them so hopefully then won't it?
Come on, if he was a conman, he certainly wasn't reknowned for it otherwise Moores wouldn't have done a deal with him and you's wouldn't have looked upon the Yanks as the saviours would you?
And just like Henry and despite your protests to the contrary, he and Gillett were businessmen, and damn fine ones judging by their individual fortunes.
I think most people praised Adam and Blackpool because it was a fantastic story and he was outstanding for them without a doubt.
However it is possible to praise someone and also think that they aren't good enough for a club with Liverpool's ambitions let alone United's.
I think this is what you will find is the main opinion of most on this forum.
Feck knows, however Veron cost closer to £28mil. And it's not really comparable, the transfer market at the time was at an all time high, Zidane moved for a world record fee, Nedved went for Juve for an astronomical fee, Veron was hardly an extortionate price in comparison. Yes, we over paid perhaps, but he was in the same league as Zidane in 2001, a proven world class midfielder. Andy Carroll has barely proven himself at any level, and the fee you overpaid by is far, far greater.