And Dorgu.
VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion
- Thread starter Samid
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It shouldn’t have intervened. It was not a clear and obvious error. It would have been a soft pen and assisted by a dive but it wasn’t a clear error from the ref
But then dorgu got pulled back worse just ten mins before and nothing was given or even looked at, just makes var pointless. No consistency what so ever
How is awarding a penalty for a dive not a clear and obvious error?
Rightfully overturned, just like Maguires claims were rightfully denied.
The cribbing from ABU's about this is hilarious and predictable
I’ve read the last two pages and the argument just goes around in circles. I think Young got impeded in the box and then dived. He was still impeded, no matter how soft.
Whether people agree on how much or what the rules say is a different matter again. Like people have said already, Maguire got pulled twice and dorgu got pulled even worse and nothing was given. No consistency at all.
And to make it worse var only show the angle of the dive and not the one where it looks like he got pulled a bit more. It just a massive shambles.
And to be clear, I thought it would be overturned as soon as they sent him to the screen. And was obviously happy with that. I just hate VAR
Maybe. But if the Young incident hadn’t occurred yesterday, then obviously no one would have been in this thread complaining that Maguire hadn’t been awarded a penalty, even United fans.
The whole clear and obvious thing is just a get out clause to deny intervention as they see fit.
We've had plenty of soft as shit penalties where minute contact was deemed enough, ultimately they got the decision right.
That's why VAR was brought in, to correct mistakes.
We just disagree on the overall point. I don’t think var corrects mistakes consistently enough so it’s pointless, it’s one of the reasons there’s 500 pages in this thread. People don’t agree with the decisions.
And this will go around in circles again, Young got impeded (soft or not) so the ref didn’t make an obvious error. Even if they do use that as a get out clause.
Happy correct decision was made, the penalty was harsh and soft. The small tugging of the shirt should never be given one in the box. It opens up all sort can of worms, why isn’t penalties given from corners when they’re wrestling and tugging?
The rules of the game need to be changed to make it consistent regarding shirt grabbing.
Also the ref waved off similar fouls against us yesterday so atleast he was consistent.
The rules of the game need to be changed to make it consistent regarding shirt grabbing.
Also the ref waved off similar fouls against us yesterday so atleast he was consistent.
There's nothing consistent about refereeing in the PL or any league really.
VAR got this one right, we should all just appreciate that, rather than saying it shouldn't have intervened to correct a mistake.
Var got this right in your and other people’s eyes. They got it wrong in other people’s eyes and no one is right or wrong in thinking that. That’s the whole point and why I feel var is just a waste of time and ruining the game.
Quick edit to add…
Did Young get impeded in the box? Yes
Did Young dive in the box? Yes
Then it’s all down to interpretation of how much impedement and rule book no one will ever agree on
True. This is just the latest in a long line of incidents which divides opinions. And opinions will always be divided on incidents like this. No matter how many replays we watch, or how many days we have to think about it. Which is why it’s so ridiculous to assume that VAR can uncover the “correct” opinion, under extreme time pressure, watching a few replays on the side of the pitch. Which is a big factor in it being such a pointless and irritating addition to football.
Of course it can fix mistakes, maybe not every time but it can and has proven it hundreds of times around Europe since its introduction. You've been stuck for years on this "it has to fix everything in 0.5s or it's not worth it" position that makes no sense. Not giving a penalty for Young's obvious dive and exaggeration was the right call. Thinking the opposite isn't an "other opinion", it's being wrong and refusing to admit it.
Look, I'm not saying the decision itself was incorrect. I hate diving, and Young should be booked for exaggerating the fall. But the communcation around VAR this season has been that the on field decision should stand unless it's clearly and obviously wrong. This wasn't, hence VAR should have left it.
I also don't think the reasoning that because he went down in a way the supposed foul wouldn't have caused it shouldn't be called. Players almost exclusively go down in a way the actual incident wouldn't have caused, so unless you's almost never call a foul I don't think that's a good argument.
We have been more victims of the "clear and obvious" than any other club in the league. Watch how they awarded the West Ham penalty or the City penalty at home last season. If anything I think this shit about clear and obvious should removed immediately and manage VAR like every other country in the world. What is so special about the English premier league that can not operate on VAR like any other country on the planet.
I don't think we should compare to last year as I think the directives this year has changed and the on field decision should stand to a higher degree. The West Ham decision was a farce, and I think they even admitted it was a mistake. For me the bottom line here is that it wasn't clearly and obviously wrong so it should stand. But I guess it's nice when inconsistencies favor United.
Remember when Garnacho got picked up by a Spurs player in the box
Or Casemiro decision. Both (and some of yesterdays decisions) more controversial than Youngs dive… but it’s United. And we ‘sell’, which saves media from having to do some real journalism.
this was probably not even mentioned in the post match.
It wasn’t, or basically anywhere else, but here we are, with pages of discussion about why a dive should have been awarded a penalty against United.
Hojlund getting completely scissored by Ruben Dias and all the pundits pretending it wasn't a foul was a good one too.
This is interesting.
to me, looks like a shirt pull from de Ligt, then Young takes a step, then plants his left foot next to Maguire (which I’ve seen from another angle), then drags foot, dives/twists…. forward.
At least SAF called him out on it.
to me, looks like a shirt pull from de Ligt, then Young takes a step, then plants his left foot next to Maguire (which I’ve seen from another angle), then drags foot, dives/twists…. forward.
At least SAF called him out on it.
Bloody hell. The way he fell is so overdramatic
The outrage mob have been all over it on social media, so watch us now get poor decisions for the rest of the season.
Red card overturned by VAR. Player made a meal of it. Not really.
Finally, a reason to go down holding your face.
It's sad how deeply ingrained the "Ref, look!" behaviour is that 3 teammates (2 in the back and the keeper off screen) were more concerned with ensuring the red card instead of immediately checking on their teammate like the guy in front.
My irritation is that when players are fouled and don’t go to ground they almost never get a penalty. Which then obviously encourages diving. I understand it’s hard for the ref to spot sometimes in a crowded penalty area which is why VAR need to do their fecking job and let the ref know when someone is fouled even if they don’t go to ground.
As for Ashley Young it was a definite ridiculous dive. A soft foul that happens many time in the game and gets ignored unless the players dive. Totally understand why he threw himself over and why it was overturned as it was a shit dive. He was always shit at it.
As for Ashley Young it was a definite ridiculous dive. A soft foul that happens many time in the game and gets ignored unless the players dive. Totally understand why he threw himself over and why it was overturned as it was a shit dive. He was always shit at it.
There's boxers out there who'd be proud of that punch!
If you're going to get red card for raised hands, may as well do it properly.
Is that a tooth that goes flying out?
Nah, it's his soul.
I think it's pretty obvious why?
Villa won that game so nobody cares as much.
The Young incident was in the final minutes of a game which was 2-2.
You’re right, it’s 100% obvious why.
(Edit. And there wasn’t this much media/social media uproar for Oliver misusing his VAR/seniority to force a ref into giving West Ham a penalty. Much more serious/newsworthy and Howard Webb … just did a half hearted sorry.
A game we lost.)
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That "foul" that awarded a freekick and led to Newcastle's opener is beyond ludicrous. Joelinton barges into the Forest player who's a couple yards away and already reacting to a new phase of play. Joke of a decision.
Some VARs wouldn't send the ref to overturn that decision, some refs wouldn't give the decision in the first place and most VARs wouldn't than overturn it if they didn't, but others might. The incredible inconsistency of VAR is worse than the inconsistency of refs pre VAR but at least pre VAR you could accept the onfield ref gets only one view of it and mistakes and inconsistency were expected, much the same as you get mistakes and inconsistency in players decision making, all part of the game if you like.
For what it's worth I think the right decision was actually made, the shirt pull is sweet FA and Young's dive is ridiculous. But the issue is very similar incidents have resulted in different outcomes. The inconsistency is created by the not particuly clear, 'clear and obvious' which is a line that seems to move at the whim of the VAR. If they are going to look at everything than get rid of clear and obvious and look at everything objectively. How hard could that actually be?
For what it's worth I think the right decision was actually made, the shirt pull is sweet FA and Young's dive is ridiculous. But the issue is very similar incidents have resulted in different outcomes. The inconsistency is created by the not particuly clear, 'clear and obvious' which is a line that seems to move at the whim of the VAR. If they are going to look at everything than get rid of clear and obvious and look at everything objectively. How hard could that actually be?
I get very puzzled about this aspect of VAR.
As I'm also often hearing how the officials should let the action play out and allow VAR to decide if they see something - rather than guessing at a decision with one view at full pace (be it offside or a penalty) and therefore stopping the action and not letting it play out naturally.
Therefore, as it would have a soft pen as you say, and no way the official could really be certain either way with one viewing, then had the official not guessed and given the pen and let the action play on, allowing VAR to take a look - as he should have - then are we now also saying that VAR then telling him to take another look to see if it was a penalty would also be wrong as it also wouldn't have been a clear and obvious enough error not to give it? Even though the officials, in turn, would have been leaving it to VAR because they couldn't really tell either way with just one viewing.
It's a muddy area all the talk about 'clear and obvious error' and I think there's mixed messages about whether VAR should intervene in those very close calls. And what mixes it up most is when the onfield officials decides to stop play by making a call themselves rather than letting the play go on and just letting VAR recheck it. Because the former is then more seen as 're-refereeing / ruling it as clear an obvious error' while the latter seen more as the officials not being sure and so letting VAR take a look with better angles, more replays, etc.
So what muddied this issue was the onfield ref guessing and giving it. This was a perfect scenario where he should have let play go on while VAR have a better look with more replays and angles. And had VAR then sent him over to have a look if he should give a penalty, it wouldn't have been 're-refereeing' or saying it was 'a clear and obvious error' - just the process working well with the onfield offical taking use of VAR, and VAR recommending he take another look himself with those extra replays and angles because it's such a tight and difficult call.
It's when the onfield official initially guesses at those very tight calls that we get the outcries of 're-refereeing' and what happened to 'clear and obvious error'?
I agree with this. I've just posted similar before reading this.
The issue is definitely with the 'clear and obvious error' line. And also with the fact that some onfield officials will guess at very tight calls by making an active decision (actually giving offside or a penalty), while others will opt for letting the action play out and seeing what VAR makes of it with better angles and more replays. They're not necessarily saying it's 100% not offside or a penalty, just not stopping the action and letting VAR have a look.
For me, the second option is the best route. Which is why I'm not a fan of the 'clear and obvious error' line. As the onfield officials should be encouraged more not to guess at such huge and difficult decisions and let play go on while VAR takes a look, rather than guessing and then making it be interpreted as a much bigger call for VAR to advise them to have another look at the incident.
Maguire was embarassing those two times as was ashley young. I can see why people argue that it should have stood, as we would if it was everton vs. city or liverpool, but deep down everyone agrees this should never be a penalty.