Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

343 said:
Um, Amorim had Sporting 3rd in the CL table when he left, after having beaten City 4-1 in his last game.

He also broke the Porto-Benfica duopoly in the Portuguese league. The league might be inferior but so were the players at his disposal relative to what he was tasked with. This argument has never made any sense.
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Exactly. Amorim may or may not succeed at United but he definitely was successful at Sporting. There's a reason Liverpool and City were interested in him.
 
343 said:
Um, Amorim had Sporting 3rd in the CL table when he left, after having beaten City 4-1 in his last game.

He also broke the Porto-Benfica duopoly in the Portuguese league. The league might be inferior but so were the players at his disposal relative to what he was tasked with. This argument has never made any sense.
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What did Sporting achieve in Europe under Amorim though? If he had won the Europa league, or reached the final at least that would have been something. Sporting has always been in the top 3 in Portugal.
 
BorisManUtd said:
Exactly. Amorim may or may not succeed at United but he definitely was successful at Sporting. There's a reason Liverpool and City were interested in him.
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There's also reason why Liverpool hired Slot. Amorim can't do anything with these players.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
What did Sporting achieve in Europe under Amorim though? If he had won the Europa league, or reached the final at least that would have been something. Sporting has always been in the top 3 in Portugal.
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This is incredibly harsh, yes they were generally in the top 3 but they hadn't won the league for 20 years, and actually finished 4th the year before winning it and sold their captain & best player (to us). So they really weren't in a good place.

Specifically in Europe, they were knocked out last season by Atalanta who went onto win the competition, beaten by Juventus the season before and by Manchester City the year before that. I hardly think going out to teams who are just better than them constitutes the failure you're trying to tee it up as.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
What did Sporting achieve in Europe under Amorim though? If he had won the Europa league, or reached the final at least that would have been something. Sporting has always been in the top 3 in Portugal.
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They may have been top 3 in Portugal, but before Amorim they hadn’t won the Portuguese league for 18 years. However you try and slice it, it’s a fact that under Amorim they improved greatly, and were performing much better both domestically and in Europe than they had been before his arrival. That’s why Sporting fans rave about his positive impact at the club.

Time will tell whether he can do the same here, but what he did at Sporting was impressive enough to get him the job.
 
Ole'sgunnarwin said:
It's easy to make sense really. Ten hag's team's performances were horrendous for his last year and a half and Amorim's team has been even worse. Whether you change things or keep it the same, it simply has to better.
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If they couldn’t function in the system there were bought for, and are failing in a completely different system also, then that tells us a lot. I see no reason for Amorim to try to paper over the cracks this season. Stick to the 3421, and he’ll have a better idea by the end of the season as to who can work in this system.

What is the point in changing now, especially when he’s never played any other way? This has been done to death already, but there’s barely anything to be gained other than potentially getting a few more results. Potentially. But we’ll still be in the dark about how to proceed next season, we’ll still have to go through all this again next season etc etc. it would just be setting himself up for failure.

I personally would rather he stick to his convictions and see if he can get more players feeling at home in this system by the end of the season. At least then we’ll potentially have more to work with and therefore less players to buy. It gives us a better chance next season and beyond, something that absolutely cannot be said about changing systems now.
 
People in here saying that the fans want to see style and results...I disagree actually. The problem is that we've played so poorly, we can take defeats but it's the manner of them that's the thing I hate. We barely have any attacks at all and we play very conservatively indeed. I'm not expecting to be thrashing people but I would like to see some promising football and a few nicer bits of play.

Currently we are dreadful to watch and the results are shocking. If we played well and opened the opposition up a few times scored some more goals but were getting pipped at the post I wouldn't have a problem. I want him to do well and I think he will but it's bad to watch.
 
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
So the only way to play a back 4 with this squad is to adopt Ten Hag's tactics from last season of having a giant gap in midfield with a past-it Casemiro chasing shadows?

I'd like us to play a back 4 with more attacking football whilst also having some control in midfield. Is that too much to ask from this squad? The addition of Ugarte should've helped us move past the nightmare of last season's chaotic midfield structure.
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TBH I don't have an issue with 3 at the back, it's having defensive minded WB's pushing high at the same time that leaves the midfield exposed IMO, the other main issue is that we're too slow and static
 
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
So the only way to play a back 4 with this squad is to adopt Ten Hag's tactics from last season of having a giant gap in midfield with a past-it Casemiro chasing shadows?

I'd like us to play a back 4 with more attacking football whilst also having some control in midfield. Is that too much to ask from this squad? The addition of Ugarte should've helped us move past the nightmare of last season's chaotic midfield structure.
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Its too much to ask from the current manager because he has never played a back 4 before
 
iHicksy said:
Players don't think our tactics suit their style of play eh? Sounds familiar.

Guess what, they don't suit your style because the only way some of you can play is playground kick and rush football - which is why if you don;t or can't adapt you're out the door. If after having a pre season where he can actually implement it uninterrupted you still don't think you can handle, then feck off.

Ruben's style is the now the style of manchester united, it doesn;t pander or adapt for you. You adapt to it.
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I dont know who these players are. The strikers played in a back 3 system in italy. Ugarte is familiar with that system. Bruno wont complain.

Its probably the fullbacks and wingers.
 
Zumbi said:
They may have been top 3 in Portugal, but before Amorim they hadn’t won the Portuguese league for 18 years. However you try and slice it, it’s a fact that under Amorim they improved greatly, and were performing much better both domestically and in Europe than they had been before his arrival. That’s why Sporting fans rave about his positive impact at the club.

Time will tell whether he can do the same here, but what he did at Sporting was impressive enough to get him the job.
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Apparently, Sporting used a surprise Europa League elimination to its advantage in that title win, with Benfica and Porto struggling to juggle all competitions, Sporting’s reduced calendar gave them plenty of time to recover between games.
Also read that Amorims Sporting was complacent, unexciting and downright cynical, they had scored three-plus goals on only three occasions, and had often won by the skin of their teeth securing several late wins with strikes in stoppage time.

Anyway, as you say. time will tell us all we need to know.
 
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Free rein for me this season, chop and change personnel and find out who will work next season and who needs to go.

The way I see it as long as we don’t get relegated this season is our pre season for next year.

RIP the band aid off once and for all.
 
Adam McNeill said:
Free rein for me this season, chop and change personnel and find out who will work next season and who needs to go.

The way I see it as long as we don’t get relegated this season is our pre season for next year.

RIP the band aid off once and for all.
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This is our pre pre pre season
 
It is like taking a group of talented home chefs then place them into Hell's Kitchen. They do not immediately turn into Michelin star chefs.

Not all can work in a system, not everyone are receptive to using new tools or recipes, not many can perform under pressure. Collectively, sometimes good sometimes shit becomes mostly shit..for a while. Eventually those that can adapts and improves on consistency remains. That's what we want right?

I do not have blind faith in Amorin but I have 0 faith in the players. I believe the process of forcing players adapt and expecting minimum professionalism is long overdue. If we are change course just 2-3 months into it, how can any new manager implement their ideas? The players knows they can just outlast any manager anyway.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Apparently, Sporting used a surprise Europa League elimination to its advantage in that title win, with Benfica and Porto struggling to juggle all competitions, Sporting’s reduced calendar gave them plenty of time to recover between games.
Also read that Amorims Sporting was complacent, unexciting and downright cynical, they had scored three-plus goals on only three occasions, and had often won by the skin of their teeth securing several late wins with strikes in stoppage time.

Anyway, as you say. time will tell us all we need to know.
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So what? We could list all sorts of assorted variables that affected the Portuguese league in various ways for each of the past twenty season, but none of that will change the fact that Amorim took them from not winning it for twenty years, to winning it twice under a fairly short space of time under his management. Are you trying to claim that at no other time in the previous twenty years early European departures gave Sporting favourable match calendars? That those league wins should not be attributed to his management but instead put down to entirely random factors?

However you try to denigrate his achievements there, it’s a fact that they saw success under his management that they hadn’t seen in decades.
 
This Spurs game worries me. Seems like Ange prioritizes games vs us for whatever reason like he’s trying to prove something. I dont think this will be comfortable at all despite their recent results and injuries but I really hope we blast them. We are definitely due.
 
bgoodall said:
This Spurs game worries me. Seems like Ange prioritizes games vs us for whatever reason like he’s trying to prove something. I dont think this will be comfortable at all despite their recent results and injuries but I really hope we blast them. We are definitely due.
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The wheels are falling off at spurs and he's going to get sacked, I'd prefer them to fall out of the EL first before spurs part ways versus this fixture
 
bgoodall said:
This Spurs game worries me. Seems like Ange prioritizes games vs us for whatever reason like he’s trying to prove something. I dont think this will be comfortable at all despite their recent results and injuries but I really hope we blast them. We are definitely due.
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Not sure it’s just Ange but their team seems to be suited to playing us. Some very athletic players, defenders with a lot of pace who can easily match and bully our attackers, midfielders who are press resistant, pace out wide and a CF who sniffs out the chances we inevitably give away. Luckily they’re pretty injury ravaged at the moment so it should help.
 
JPRouve said:
I don't care whether people are sympathetic or not, I don't care about emotional answers. What I care about is the reality that every single player whether he is Messi or a bench player in the 10th division has strength and weaknesses and he knows whether the instructions given to him are within his grasp or not. All managers should consider that and adapt, the ones that want to be successful do.
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Yep. Think Wayne Rooney was saying something similar about his last failed attempt at management.
 
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
I thought I remember reading on here (when he first arrived) that he started off playing 4 at the back and then eventually moved to a back 3 at Sporting.
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That was at his first club, Casa Pia. Then he said he'd quit if he lost his next match, after losing 2 or 3 straight in his first games as manager, and switched to 3atb.
 
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
So the only way to play a back 4 with this squad is to adopt Ten Hag's tactics from last season of having a giant gap in midfield with a past-it Casemiro chasing shadows?

I'd like us to play a back 4 with more attacking football whilst also having some control in midfield. Is that too much to ask from this squad? The addition of Ugarte should've helped us move past the nightmare of last season's chaotic midfield structure.
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We managed to not look a shambles with Ruud at the helm as he simply tweaked ETH's tactics to make it more sensible and we looked actually like a team.
 
pocco said:
Not sure it’s just Ange but their team seems to be suited to playing us. Some very athletic players, defenders with a lot of pace who can easily match and bully our attackers, midfielders who are press resistant, pace out wide and a CF who sniffs out the chances we inevitably give away. Luckily they’re pretty injury ravaged at the moment so it should help.
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We did quite well against Liverpool and Arsenal. Just need to defend deep and well for 60 minutes and then grab some late goals.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Apparently, Sporting used a surprise Europa League elimination to its advantage in that title win, with Benfica and Porto struggling to juggle all competitions, Sporting’s reduced calendar gave them plenty of time to recover between games.
Also read that Amorims Sporting was complacent, unexciting and downright cynical, they had scored three-plus goals on only three occasions, and had often won by the skin of their teeth securing several late wins with strikes in stoppage time.

Anyway, as you say. time will tell us all we need to know.
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Great! When do we start doing that
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Apparently, Sporting used a surprise Europa League elimination to its advantage in that title win, with Benfica and Porto struggling to juggle all competitions, Sporting’s reduced calendar gave them plenty of time to recover between games.
Also read that Amorims Sporting was complacent, unexciting and downright cynical, they had scored three-plus goals on only three occasions, and had often won by the skin of their teeth securing several late wins with strikes in stoppage time.

Anyway, as you say. time will tell us all we need to know.
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Ok, you have to be on a wind up. Where did you read this nonsense?

Sporting scored more than three goals in every single one of his last four games in charge. I literally only had to go through his last four matches to determine that stat is total bollocks.

If you take the 16 matches Amorim was in charge of this season, they scored more than three goals in 10 of them. That’s 62.5% of their matches. I’m struggling to think of a stat that’s more wrong than the one you claim to have read somewhere.
 
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stevoc said:
Because that's what he thinks is best for him. Lets be honest.

Ten Hag underestimated the league. He quickly adapted and overseen a decent season. What got him sacked was spending the next 18 months persevering with a brand of football that was never going to work.

Ten Hag already did that but fecked it up. By the way Ralfs original quote was referring to 8-10 new players. Erik went way past that.
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I think there's a subtle difference. Amorim is sticking to his principles because he believes that ultimately this is for the best for himself but also the club.

It always struck me that EtH was desperate to save his own skin and talk up the job he was doing. He abandoned "his" football in favour of face-saving results, he consistently fed us claptrap about how well we had played when we could see how dour it was and he made excuses about injuries and refereeing decisions all the time.

The point is, you or I could walk into Manchester United tomorrow, set-up in a 4-2-3-1 middle block and go through the same old tired motions, and results would be generally OK. We saw that with RvN. Amorim could have done that and soaked up the good PR, but he's chosen the hardest path because he believes its for our long term benefit.

In terms of "open heart surgery", that doesn't just mean "new players", every manager wants expensive new players - it means removing the baggage and the wasters, even if that causes short term pain.

Rashford is a prime example. EtH indulged him time and time again because he felt he needed him. He's credited for taking on Ronaldo, but Ronaldo was completely and utterly shot in that final season. He was so far off the pace it was clear he was finished. Likewise, EtH indulged Sancho many times - it was only the public criticism that saw him dropped.

I could go on...the relentless malingering of "injured" players enjoying a nice jolly, the fact Casemiro should have never stepped foot on the pitch for United again after that Panenka vs Coventry, and then again after Palace, and then again after Liverpool...but EtH kept going back to him because he felt he needed him...

EtH was tough when it suited him or when he was personally insulted, but he pandered to the players he felt were useful and allowed them to get away with murder.

No such messing around with Amorim. We have seen Rashford taking the absolute piss out of the club for three or four seasons...he lasts two or three games under Amorim and never plays again, despite Amorim acknowledging that on form, he's our best attacker. Casemiro has barely had a minute since the Newcastle debacle. A warning shot was fired at Garnacho...and look how his form has improved.
 
JPRouve said:
I don't think that overhauling his tactics is needed but why would he be finished if he did? Ancelotti tries his 4321 with all teams and he has almost always ditched at some point. No manager is locked into a box, the only thing that will end them is failing to improve performances and results.
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Mostly because he has been very forceful about the use of his current tactics. Statements like "this is the only way I know how to play", "losing is ok but we have to follow this tactics" etc. If he changes, he has very little credibility with the players and fans both of whom a difficult set at the best of times.

Ancelloti never committed himself to one formation in the manner Amorim has done
 
Now that Rashford is no longer with the team, I wonder who are these players who are pushing back against the style of play? And who is talking to the media?
 
CG1010 said:
Now that Rashford is no longer with the team, I wonder who are these players who are pushing back against the style of play? And who is talking to the media?
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Not that I like to punt on who it is, I wouldn't rule out it's him. He's just left the club and in theory, can have no problem talking about the dressing room mood with a bit of spice.
 
Lentwood said:
I think there's a subtle difference. Amorim is sticking to his principles because he believes that ultimately this is for the best for himself but also the club.

It always struck me that EtH was desperate to save his own skin and talk up the job he was doing. He abandoned "his" football in favour of face-saving results, he consistently fed us claptrap about how well we had played when we could see how dour it was and he made excuses about injuries and refereeing decisions all the time.

The point is, you or I could walk into Manchester United tomorrow, set-up in a 4-2-3-1 middle block and go through the same old tired motions, and results would be generally OK. We saw that with RvN. Amorim could have done that and soaked up the good PR, but he's chosen the hardest path because he believes its for our long term benefit.

In terms of "open heart surgery", that doesn't just mean "new players", every manager wants expensive new players - it means removing the baggage and the wasters, even if that causes short term pain.

Rashford is a prime example. EtH indulged him time and time again because he felt he needed him. He's credited for taking on Ronaldo, but Ronaldo was completely and utterly shot in that final season. He was so far off the pace it was clear he was finished. Likewise, EtH indulged Sancho many times - it was only the public criticism that saw him dropped.

I could go on...the relentless malingering of "injured" players enjoying a nice jolly, the fact Casemiro should have never stepped foot on the pitch for United again after that Panenka vs Coventry, and then again after Palace, and then again after Liverpool...but EtH kept going back to him because he felt he needed him...

EtH was tough when it suited him or when he was personally insulted, but he pandered to the players he felt were useful and allowed them to get away with murder.

No such messing around with Amorim. We have seen Rashford taking the absolute piss out of the club for three or four seasons...he lasts two or three games under Amorim and never plays again, despite Amorim acknowledging that on form, he's our best attacker. Casemiro has barely had a minute since the Newcastle debacle. A warning shot was fired at Garnacho...and look how his form has improved.
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Really don't see how we can make such confident claims about Amorim e.g. no messing around from Amorim, not indulging players. He's been here 4 months and has only had a few years as a manager. Half of what you wrote you could have written 6 months into Ten Hag's reign, replacing Amorim with Ten Hag and replacing Ten Hag with Ole.

There is a chance by sticking to the principles we will eventually get better, there is also just as likely the chance that the tactics are too boring, negative, and get found out in a better league. If the later we will be saying his lack of flexibility and stubborness is what will have eventually got him the sack. At this point in time he is doing a pretty poor job based on already low expectations. I personally think this season's squad is better than the injury plagued one from last season so they shouldn't be performingas badly as they are, lets see how he finishes the season.
 
UnitedSofa said:
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Like clockwork.

sullydnl said:
"Players concerned style of play doesn't suit them" carries less weight in a context where almost every single player in the squad is utterly expendable.
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They should be expendable. I don't think they are that easy to be rid of, given how much some of them earn compared to their contributions. It'll have to be a long term effort.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Apparently, Sporting used a surprise Europa League elimination to its advantage in that title win, with Benfica and Porto struggling to juggle all competitions, Sporting’s reduced calendar gave them plenty of time to recover between games.
Also read that Amorims Sporting was complacent, unexciting and downright cynical, they had scored three-plus goals on only three occasions, and had often won by the skin of their teeth securing several late wins with strikes in stoppage time.

Anyway, as you say. time will tell us all we need to know.
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Yeah, no. Just in their last three games they scored 3+ in all. In their last 5 actually.

Hell I went and looked it up and they scored 3+ in over 80 matches under Amorim, going on streaks of scoring 3+ in 5, 6 and 7 games in a row. Hope we can get some of that cynical unexciting stuff soon!
 
flameinthesun said:
Really don't see how we can make such confident claims about Amorim e.g. no messing around from Amorim, not indulging players. He's been here 4 months and has only had a few years as a manager. Half of what you wrote you could have written 6 months into Ten Hag's reign, replacing Amorim with Ten Hag and replacing Ten Hag with Ole.

There is a chance by sticking to the principles we will eventually get better, there is also just as likely the chance that the tactics are too boring, negative, and get found out in a better league. If the later we will be saying his lack of flexibility and stubborness is what will have eventually got him the sack. At this point in time he is doing a pretty poor job based on already low expectations. I personally think this season's squad is better than the injury plagued one from last season so they shouldn't be performingas badly as they are, lets see how he finishes the season.
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This is 100% true. There is an obsession with systems and style. What was ETH football, it was never clear. Ajax had a very strong team in a poor league where they are a giant in terms of resources. They could never replicate that in the PL, his attempted high press and focus on turnovers were likened to Ajax, just it was far easier to do in his home league. It got torn apart in the PL with more physical players and better opposition every week. The best managers are ultimate pragmatists and always evolve. Fergie hired new assistants to update the tactics. Amorim being a fixed system manager with it seems one way of playing, or at least 100% stuck with 3 at the back, is a problem. Its not a common system amongst top clubs and there is a reason for that. No amount of hope will change these realities. I hope he succeeds but its looking like a very high risk bet by INEOS and going against the messages they initially gave.
 
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