Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

JPRouve said:
As usual I suspect that it's the press twisting the truth. But it's important to note that players know what works and most impostantly what doesn't work with them. I mentioned it numerous times because it's a high profile example but the case of Klose being unable to apply LVG's instructions on the field even he understood them on tape simply because he couldn't see the sequences on the field. People and some managers tend to forget that players aren't robots, you can't fully program or reprogram them to your ideas, you almost always have to make a step or several step in their direction. And it's also as important to know what they can't do or what they struggle to do than it is to understand what they can do. You hide the former and emphasize the latter.
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That's a valid point although a lot of our players have shown an inability to pass, press, cross or shoot in multiple systems.
 
JPRouve said:
As usual I suspect that it's the press twisting the truth. But it's important to note that players know what works and most impostantly what doesn't work with them. I mentioned it numerous times because it's a high profile example but the case of Klose being unable to apply LVG's instructions on the field even he understood them on tape simply because he couldn't see the sequences on the field. People and some managers tend to forget that players aren't robots, you can't fully program or reprogram them to your ideas, you almost always have to make a step or several step in their direction. And it's also as important to know what they can't do or what they struggle to do than it is to understand what they can do. You hide the former and emphasize the latter.
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Stop giving these players excuses.
 
acnumber9 said:
Anybody claiming we would get worse following the change in manager is a liar.
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I mean, the manager himself said that things would likely get worse for a period in his very first interview. I think it's true to say that it's probably been worse than any of us had hoped though. On the plus side...I wouldn't have put money on us making it through the EL group under Ten Hag, and so we do still have a shot at CL football next season.
 
RedSky said:
Stop giving these players excuses.
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Facts aren't excuses. In fact I will just share this quote from SAF who share a similar idea but from his manager POV.

And you like that in a player …

Well, yes! If you’ve got that great belief—do it! It was the same with Ronaldo. Don’t discourage him at any time to beat men, because he’s the player you’re looking for. When we were building the ’99 team, I wanted Dwight Yorke, because he was the only player in England that I could see who could beat his man in the last third as a centre-forward. He could turn a man and beat him. There’s always a balance of thoughts and a balance of instruction through all teams. To some players, you say: Keep your game simple, because they’re better when they’re uncomplicated. And there are players who can take the game to a different level, a level which I can’t see myself, because I do not have their vision, and they see things that I, as a coach, don’t see. Ronaldo, Scholes, Cantona, Giggs. … They have that exceptional vision of the game. Giggs has this gift of pure balance … you know, he never earns penalty kicks! Do you know why? Because he never goes down. He stumbles, and carries on; because when he gets hit, his balance is so good that he stumbles through. Unbelievable! The key is also to create teams who trusted each other, are committed to each other. The best teams are always the ones which have a good bond with each other, and can understand when a player is having a bad time, and will support each other.
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hellhunter said:
You realise Klose is as close to a model pro as you could hope for?
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We get this excuse with every fecking Manager. It's tiresome. There's only a few players in this squad that actually deserve to wear the shirt based on their performances over the last 24 months. It's really that simple. Talk about it behind clsoed doors, but quelle surprise it gets leaked to the press. I'm sick of it and i'm sick of people giving the players an excuse when we have to watch their error prone, rancid displays every week.
 
dubplate warrior said:
The whole point of the system is that we can attack or defend with a 5 very quickly. We're really poor at it right now because we don't have the athleticism nor attacking prowess.

Maybe the system won't work, but I'd rather jettison as many of these players out of the club and give it a try first.
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Fair enough, do you know any teams that have played it effectively for a few seasons at the highest level? Really wondering.
 
acnumber9 said:
I can see what’s being served up on the pitch. It’s garbage and your non answer sums up your argument.

What isn’t hilarious is the football we’re playing and no amount of pseudo tactical expertise from internet coaches changes what’s happening on the pitch currently.
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yes, almost like what we're seeing currently hasn't been fully trained yet and isn't the finished product. who knew?

your argument relies on this frankly absurd notion that Amorim's system as evidenced at Sporting is the same as ETH's system at United, just with an extra CB thrown in at the back. it's one of the most nonsense football related things i've heard in a long time.
 
skc_18 said:
Has to be. Its impossible that even after so many new players past few seasons, we hear this every time when there is a new manager.
Has to be some agenda from the press or our ex-players feeding something.

No other club in the world, does not matter what form they are in, has this kind of negativity and I highly doubt it is coming from majority of players.
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People just don't care at other clubs. But pretty much every big club going through a lull has negativity like this coming out.
 
RedSky said:
That quote doesn't apply to players actively questioning the Managers system and then leaking it to the press.
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And my point wasn't about leaks but about players knowing more about the system than the manager, at least knowing whether it works or not.
 
AjaxCunian said:
Fair enough, do you know any teams that have played it effectively for a few seasons at the highest level? Really wondering.
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Didn't Conte win a PL using a back three? Tuchel won a CL playing a back three unless I'm mistaken, Atlanta and Inter look excellent the last few times I've seen them and they're playing in a back three. I'm not sure how much Inter with 3 ATB to be fair as it was only the one time I watched them.

I think the formation is a little overplayed, if you have good players, they can play most roles and systems just fine and win games based on their quality alone. Ole wasn't a great coach but he had a lot of quality at his disposal which got him results for a couple years.

Ten Hag did himself no favours but he wasn't helped. The quality in this squad is dire.
 
RedSky said:
We get this excuse with every fecking Manager. It's tiresome. There's only a few players in this squad that actually deserve to wear the shirt based on their performances over the last 24 months. It's really that simple. Talk about it behind clsoed doors, but quelle surprise it gets leaked to the press. I'm sick of it and i'm sick of people giving the players an excuse when we have to watch their error prone, rancid displays every week.
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It happens because that's how footballers are. Across the board. If they feel their bad attributes are being highlighted because of the manager or they feel his tactics are trash, it'll happen. You're forgetting that footballers are simply people.

Every club across the board, players won't buy in unless they feel the manager knows what he's doing and/or they feel like they're being made better and results are going well.

Don't expect the impossible and you won't be surprised. Listen to enough ex-footballers and you realise the deal. Even current players like that interview Doucoure just did and Lampard's time at Everton was brought up.
 
He still doesn't have a team yet from what I see. Most of the players second guess the best option/move way too often, which leads into successions of negative back and sideways passes and an overall dull and ineffective team performance.

The players are surely above non-league quality so their actions speak to, either a lack of trust in the ability of the teammate who's supposed to receive the right pass or the rest of the team's ability to efficiently cover a potential error. In the end they all get caught in a negative loop as they've drained the confidence out of each other, and what their negative actions project ends up happening.

The players could still be struggling to understand his system but that becomes less and less convincing as time goes. Another possible cause could be some entrenched cliques that are still refusing to operate together. He needs the summer and full backing to mold a team that's for certain.
 
AjaxCunian said:
Fair enough, do you know any teams that have played it effectively for a few seasons at the highest level? Really wondering.
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The system isn‘t the issue, performance is. Everything falls apart if players aren‘t doing what they are supposed to do.

One thing this formation does, is give us a bit more cover defensively. In attack it is much the same as the previous 325 or 3241.
 
NLunited said:
The system isn‘t the issue, performance is. Everything falls apart if players aren‘t doing what they are supposed to do.

One thing this formation does, is give us a bit more cover defensively. In attack it is much the same as the previous 325 or 3241.
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The systeme doesn't give you more cover, it does the same thing than for example prime Barcelona when they were in the attacking phase, in transition the opposition had both wings to target, the middle was somewhat close by the CB duo and Busquets but even that wasn't actually solid. And everyone knew that, the only reason Barcelona weren't conceding tones of goals was because they had a very good high press and were extremely good at keeping the ball but all transitions opportunities for the opposition were extremely dangerous.
 
The more games we see from the players in a 3-4-2-1, the more lost they seem to look both in and out of possession. With the remainder of the PL season essentially being a write off, I do think now is the right time for Amorim to change to a different formation. I don't think it would be perceived as showing weakness or succumbing to player power to at least try something new.
 
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
The more games we see from the players in a 3-4-2-1, the more lost they seem to look both in and out of possession. With the remainder of the PL season essentially being a write off, I do think now is the right time for Amorim to change to a different formation. I don't think it would be perceived as showing weakness or succumbing to player power to at least try something new.
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I think if he tries to change now, he is completely finished. He has locked himself into a box and has to make this work.

He can make some tactical tweaks and move around players around to some extent.
 
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
The more games we see from the players in a 3-4-2-1, the more lost they seem to look both in and out of possession. With the remainder of the PL season essentially being a write off, I do think now is the right time for Amorim to change to a different formation. I don't think it would be perceived as showing weakness or succumbing to player power to at least try something new.
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He has never coached that though, so you end up with a coach trying a new formation he understands less. We actually have a full week of training this week at least so you'd hope to see some improvement at the weekend. Certainly there is less of an excuse this week.
 
Tallis said:
I think if he tries to change now, he is completely finished. He has locked himself into a box and has to make this work.

He can make some tactical tweaks and move around players around to some extent.
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I don't think that overhauling his tactics is needed but why would he be finished if he did? Ancelotti tries his 4321 with all teams and he has almost always ditched at some point. No manager is locked into a box, the only thing that will end them is failing to improve performances and results.
 
dubplate warrior said:
Didn't Conte win a PL using a back three? Tuchel won a CL playing a back three unless I'm mistaken, Atlanta and Inter look excellent the last few times I've seen them and they're playing in a back three. I'm not sure how much Inter with 3 ATB to be fair as it was only the one time I watched them.

I think the formation is a little overplayed, if you have good players, they can play most roles and systems just fine and win games based on their quality alone. Ole wasn't a great coach but he had a lot of quality at his disposal which got him results for a couple years.

Ten Hag did himself no favours but he wasn't helped. The quality in this squad is dire.
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Leverkusen under Xabi Alonso is another example, usually lining up with a back three. Frankfurt won the EL using that system under Oliver Glasner (and before under Hütter lost the EL semifinal against Chelsea only on penalties). There are plenty of teams successfully using that.
 
Tweaking the system to the players’ strengths argument would be more credible if we had actually seen these players perform consistently well in any system over the last 18 months. The fact that they have been woeful now under 2 different systems & style of play means that need to buck up and stop questioning the system and start looking at themselves. I dont think there is one player who can put their hand up and say that they have done the basics well consistently over the last 18 months.
 
peridigm said:
I think the majority are backing him but feel his time is limited if he does not produce results. You can't help but wonder why he has not taken a bit more pragmatic approach since this crop of players obviously are not doing what he wants. His stubbornness could end up costing him his job. It was a big gamble hiring him in the first place. New coach, new system, and a my way or the highway attitude. What could go wrong? The one thing no one can put their finger on is how inconsistent the players have been over several managers. If nothing else, 24/25 will be best known for the season we got rid of some coasters in Sancho, Rashford, and Antony. Let's hope the latter two decide the grass is greener at their new clubs.
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The fact he didn't sell out his beliefs for a more 'pragmatic approach' is why I am 100% backing him. The players have been catered too for FAR too long and I am glad Amorim is sticking to his guns, playing his style, and if the players continue to show how shambolic they really are then they will be replaced and I for one can't wait for the clear out.
 
JPRouve said:
Facts aren't excuses. In fact I will just share this quote from SAF who share a similar idea but from his manager POV.
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Yes, and if we had a prime Scholes, Ronaldo, Giggs or Cantona complaining about the system, I am sure fans would be much more sympathetic to them.
When our best player, Bruno (whom I like a lot), makes dozens of inexplicable mistakes every match, its a bit tough to take these alleged mutterings seriously.

People have recently made excuses for Rasmus, saying we do not provide enough service to him. Whilst I can partly agree, its hard to argue that the system is holding him back when you regularly see him unable to control simple passes, run into defenders and get himself marked, make poor runs in the box, etc. The same can be said just about every players in our squad.
 
sparx99 said:
He has never coached that though, so you end up with a coach trying a new formation he understands less. We actually have a full week of training this week at least so you'd hope to see some improvement at the weekend. Certainly there is less of an excuse this week.
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I thought I remember reading on here (when he first arrived) that he started off playing 4 at the back and then eventually moved to a back 3 at Sporting.
 
Abhinav said:
Tweaking the system to the players’ strengths argument would be more credible if we had actually seen these players perform consistently well in any system over the last 18 months. The fact that they have been woeful now under 2 different systems & style of play means that need to buck up and stop questioning the system and start looking at themselves. I dont think there is one player who can put their hand up and say that they have done the basics well consistently over the last 18 months.
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It's a bit of an ouroboros. If the team had played consistently well, ETH would still have a job. Your point only makes sense if coaching and tactical setups are irrelevant and players are supposed to perform consistently well regardless of how they coached and organized. The other thing is that every single one of these players has actually performed consistently well at their previous club, that's how they ended at United.
 
Abhinav said:
Yes, and if we had a prime Scholes, Ronaldo, Giggs or Cantona complaining about the system, I am sure fans would be much more sympathetic to them.
When our best player, Bruno (whom I like a lot), makes dozens of inexplicable mistakes every match, its a bit tough to take these alleged mutterings seriously.

People have recently made excuses for Rasmus, saying we do not provide enough service to him. Whilst I can partly agree, its hard to argue that the system is holding him back when you regularly see him unable to control simple passes, run into defenders and get himself marked, make poor runs in the box, etc. The same can be said just about every players in our squad.
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I don't care whether people are sympathetic or not, I don't care about emotional answers. What I care about is the reality that every single player whether he is Messi or a bench player in the 10th division has strength and weaknesses and he knows whether the instructions given to him are within his grasp or not. All managers should consider that and adapt, the ones that want to be successful do.
 
Who leaks this shite to the media? I find it harder and harder to like this squad each and every day.
 
pocco said:
Ten Hag got criticised for not trying to play the type of football that got him the job. Amorim sticks to his system no matter what, but the fans criticise him for it (even after zero signings and joining mid season).

Make it make sense.
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we need to judge him next season
 
If I had to guess it would have been Chris Wheeler DM.

The guy who also said the players were unhappy that Rashford had been exiled earlier this year.

Wonder who his source for this latest guff is.
 
pocco said:
Ten Hag got criticised for not trying to play the type of football that got him the job. Amorim sticks to his system no matter what, but the fans criticise him for it (even after zero signings and joining mid season).

Make it make sense.
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Playing devil's advocate here.

First, we have loads of fans, and the ones who complained about ETH may not be the ones who complain about Amorim.

Second, if it's the same people, they might have had a different view had ETH tried to play his Ajax football only for it to still look dreadful after a few months.
 
JPRouve said:
It's a bit of an ouroboros. If the team had played consistently well, ETH would still have a job. Your point only makes sense if coaching and tactical setups are irrelevant and players are supposed to perform consistently well regardless of how they coached and organized. The other thing is that every single one of these players has actually performed consistently well at their previous club, that's how they ended at United.
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Not really. Coaching and tactical setups are not irrelevant on the whole, especially when we are talking about the last tenth of a percentage point improvement in performance, but they are pretty much irrelevant in players being able to do the basics.

Did tactics play a part in Onana chucking the ball in our net and single handedly costing us the CL campaign last year? Or does it lead to Garnacho making bad decisions in the final third? Or for Rashford not to track back or run?
What is lacking in the club first and foremost is the culture of accountability and ownership. For a long time now players are able to get by, just by doing the bare minimum because they know they are the ‘asset’ and they can get the manager sacked and take the blame if it comes to it. And it doesn’t matter how many player turnovers happen but if the culture & tone from the top is not addressed, it slowly finds its way even to the newest member of the squad.

To your last point, actually, a lot of these players have come to United either too early in their career, without proving themselves, or too late, for their last pay check. The likes of Hojlund, Zirkzee, Garnacho, Mainoo (I know these are academy players) don’t have a body of work that they can point to and say they were consistent.
 
dutchred said:
we need to judge him next season
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Indeed we do, but he needs to help himself as well, persisting with the same players in positions they keep failing in is going to cost him his job, Dalot is a prime example, he's clearly never going to be successful as a LWB, so stop playing him there
 
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