Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

JPRouve said:
I don't care whether people are sympathetic or not, I don't care about emotional answers. What I care about is the reality that every single player whether he is Messi or a bench player in the 10th division has strength and weaknesses and he knows whether the instructions given to him are within his grasp or not. All managers should consider that and adapt, the ones that want to be successful do.
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First, how do you know that the manager is not adapting their tactics to suit the players. We have already seen Amorim adjust his system to accommodate Garnacho’s strengths and allow him to play wider than a traditional 10.

Its a bit of a fallacy to say that the players know their strengths and weaknesses the best. There are loads of examples of players who changed their game on account of their coach, even changing their positions.
If we keep on accommodating what the players thinks their strengths are, nothing ever will change. Its like anything in life, if you truly want to achieve something meaningful you need to get out of your comfort zone.
 
pocco said:
Ten Hag got criticised for not trying to play the type of football that got him the job. Amorim sticks to his system no matter what, but the fans criticise him for it (even after zero signings and joining mid season).

Make it make sense.
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I didn't mind Ten Hag being pragmatic in his first season when he didn't have the players he needed. It was only in his second season that I criticised him for failing to play like Ajax after he had spent a load of money assembling a team (including many of his former players).

Same applies to Amorim. He currently doesn't have the suitable players needed to play his favoured formation, so why not change the formation short-term to help us play more attacking football?
 
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
I didn't mind Ten Hag being pragmatic in his first season when he didn't have the players he needed. It was only in his second season that I criticised him for failing to play like Ajax after he had spent a load of money assembling a team (including many of his former players).

Same applies to Amorim. He currently doesn't have the suitable players needed to play his favoured formation, so why not change the formation short-term to help us play more attacking football?
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Because we don't have the players that allow us to do that maybe?
 
Abhinav said:
First, how do you know that the manager is not adapting their tactics to suit the players. We have already seen Amorim adjust his system to accommodate Garnacho’s strengths and allow him to play wider than a traditional 10.

Its a bit of a fallacy to say that the players know their strengths and weaknesses the best. There are loads of examples of players who changed their game on account of their coach, even changing their positions.
If we keep on accommodating what the players thinks their strengths are, nothing ever will change. Its like anything in life, if you truly want to achieve something meaningful you need to get out of your comfort zone.
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I didn't say that the manager isn't adapting, I made a general statement about coaching and the necessity to adapt to players strength and weaknesses. And yes, some players evolve under the guidance of a manager but these evolutions aren't based on what players can't or struggle to do but on putting an emphasis on things that they can do. But it should be said that outside of youth Football, it's not the norm, it can happen but it's not the norm.
 
JPRouve said:
As usual I suspect that it's the press twisting the truth. But it's important to note that players know what works and most impostantly what doesn't work with them. I mentioned it numerous times because it's a high profile example but the case of Klose being unable to apply LVG's instructions on the field even he understood them on tape simply because he couldn't see the sequences on the field. People and some managers tend to forget that players aren't robots, you can't fully program or reprogram them to your ideas, you almost always have to make a step or several step in their direction. And it's also as important to know what they can't do or what they struggle to do than it is to understand what they can do. You hide the former and emphasize the latter.
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I'm going to go off on a side track here for a bit but I used to attribute our pressing woes to our players simply being thick (basically the Klose example). Ole / McKenna have come and gone and so has Ten Hag. The whole squad has changed in the past five years and yet the symptoms still remain. We can't press and we can't build up against a fairly simple man to man pressing scheme.

The infamous donut shape under Ten Hag was because fullback was not following the winger high up the pitch and the defensive line (both the CBs) dropping too quickly instead of staying up high.

Now it's the two wide center backs not following their man high up the pitch.

I don't think it's as simple as tape vs pitch for us. We've changed managers, coaches, players, video analysts, psychologists and nothing really worked. The last (but probably the most obvious) culprit is the squad building itself. Minor things like the wide center back being a touch slow or the #10 being too lightweight or whatever will have knock-on effects on the press and will cause the whole thing to fall apart.

If it's not the coach or the players or the squad, maybe we're just cursed as a club and we have to suffer until the powers that be decide that we've had enough of that.
 
I can't link media, but Chris Wheeler just tweeted about players discussing amongst themselves that tactically things aren't working and a change should be made.

We have been through this enough at this point, I know what's happening here and Amorim might as well quit now and save face, because this is one of the first steps of the beginning of the end for him. Once leaks start coming from the dressing room it's only a matter of time.

INEOS really fecked up forcing him here midseason and not supporting him in the market. I think Amorim might be a case of the right manager at the wrong time, we don't have our shit together enough to take on that project. It's a shame, I really like him, but I have seen this play out several times and it's happening to Amorim now.
 
JPRouve said:
I didn't say that the manager isn't adapting, I made a general statement about coaching and the necessity to adapt to players strength and weaknesses. And yes, some players evolve under the guidance of a manager but these evolutions aren't based on what players can't or struggle to do but on putting an emphasis on things that they can do. But it should be said that outside of youth Football, it's not the norm, it can happen but it's not the norm.
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Ok, if its a generic statement about coaching then I tend to agree that each coach needs to be adaptable.
However, in context of where we are as a football team, and in specific, the posted tweet, I will strongly disagree.
We have to be realistic here. The players are on long contracts, used to a fairly easy life, with little pressure to perform (only in relation to the likes of Liverpool, City or Madrid). Any manager who comes in and asks them to change will face resistance from a section of the players (even majority of the players). Its easier to not press than press with intensity, easier to defend in a low block than risk playing a high line, easier to play ping ball than build up patiently from the back. All these changes will face resistance from some players and it takes time to gain acceptance and change. Along the way, some players will show very high resistance and they will need to be shipped out. This is the litmus test of our management and they need to show resolve even in tough circumstances.
 
Utterly De Ligt'd said:
I can't link media, but Chris Wheeler just tweeted about players discussing amongst themselves that tactically things aren't working and a change should be made.

We have been through this enough at this point, I know what's happening here and Amorim might as well quit now and save face, because this is one of the first steps of the beginning of the end for him. Once leaks start coming from the dressing room it's only a matter of time.

INEOS really fecked up forcing him here midseason and not supporting him in the market. I think Amorim might be a case of the right manager at the wrong time, we don't have our shit together enough to take on that project. It's a shame, I really like him, but I have seen this play out several times and it's happening to Amorim now.
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If anything I would think this will make INEOS even more determined to support their man.
 
Teja said:
I'm going to go off on a side track here for a bit but I used to attribute our pressing woes to our players simply being thick (basically the Klose example). Ole / McKenna have come and gone and so has Ten Hag. The whole squad has changed in the past five years and yet the symptoms still remain. We can't press and we can't build up against a fairly simple man to man pressing scheme.

The infamous donut shape under Ten Hag was because fullback was not following the winger high up the pitch and the defensive line (both the CBs) dropping too quickly instead of staying up high.

Now it's the two wide center backs not following their man high up the pitch.

I don't think it's as simple as tape vs pitch for us. We've changed managers, coaches, players, video analysts, psychologists and nothing really worked. The last (but probably the most obvious) culprit is the squad building itself. Minor things like the wide center back being a touch slow or the #10 being too lightweight or whatever will have knock-on effects on the press and will cause the whole thing to fall apart.

If it's not the coach or the players or the squad, maybe we're just cursed as a club and we have to suffer until the powers that be decide that we've had enough of that.
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We are a victim of our own success. United has gotten too big to function properly. There is too much pressure to instantly return to the days of SAF, but those days are gone, it's a different league, there are several good teams and the competition is immense. In the past we had to be better than Arsenal, Liverpool, briefly Blackburn and Chelsea, but never all in the same year. Most years one of those teams was real competition for the title and that's it. Pretty much guaranteed Europe because there was never 4 teams better than us. Now we have City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Totenham, Villa, and Newcastle that are all owned by rich owners, are ambitious, plan to win the title and improve their teams every year to do so.

We're trying to get back to the top, but at the same time all these other teams are improving at a better rate every year, we aren't even keeping up with these teams in the market, let alone bettering them. So better run clubs, buying better players is always going to be tough for United to beat.

But that doesn't change the fact United is still the biggest name, thus has the biggest spotlight in football, even when we are shit the football world revolves around us. So there is simutaneously a desire for us to be at the top so we can draw the views and headlines, while also a strong desire from most to see us fail on the pitch. The pressure from the fans is increasing every year we don't win anything, patience is being stretch further. Meanwhile we have cheap owners more concerned about making a buck than winning anything.

Honestly, it would be painful, but the only way to properly reset the club would be to spend a couple years in a lower division, hopefully the owners would leave, ideally 90% of the playing staff would leave, shed those eyes and expectations that are on United and rebuild at a realistic pace.
 
Teja said:
I'm going to go off on a side track here for a bit but I used to attribute our pressing woes to our players simply being thick (basically the Klose example). Ole / McKenna have come and gone and so has Ten Hag. The whole squad has changed in the past five years and yet the symptoms still remain. We can't press and we can't build up against a fairly simple man to man pressing scheme.

The infamous donut shape under Ten Hag was because fullback was not following the winger high up the pitch and the defensive line (both the CBs) dropping too quickly instead of staying up high.

Now it's the two wide center backs not following their man high up the pitch.

I don't think it's as simple as tape vs pitch for us. We've changed managers, coaches, players, video analysts, psychologists and nothing really worked. The last (but probably the most obvious) culprit is the squad building itself. Minor things like the wide center back being a touch slow or the #10 being too lightweight or whatever will have knock-on effects on the press and will cause the whole thing to fall apart.

If it's not the coach or the players or the squad, maybe we're just cursed as a club and we have to suffer until the powers that be decide that we've had enough of that.
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The fullback part is wrong, in our attacking scheme the fullbacks were engaged very high and narrow, so the issue was the opposite of what you are describing they were too high at the start of transition which was the reason behind one of our main weakness on the wings in our own half, the other weakness was just behind the press which was also too high and flat. So the opposition always had two options play long balls quickly to either wings or target the big area between their box and the half way line just in front of the back two.
 
stepic said:
yes, almost like what we're seeing currently hasn't been fully trained yet and isn't the finished product. who knew?

your argument relies on this frankly absurd notion that Amorim's system as evidenced at Sporting is the same as ETH's system at United, just with an extra CB thrown in at the back. it's one of the most nonsense football related things i've heard in a long time.
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A United fan expecting better than to lose almost every game we play at Old Trafford because of a slightly different formation. What a novel concept.

I don’t think the changes are as seismic as you are suggesting. Nowhere near it in fact. I have asked you to tell me what is different about what the players have to do and you have done nothing but create ridiculous strawman arguments. Probably because you haven’t a notion what you’re talking about. You’re a waste of bandwidth.
 
Utterly De Ligt'd said:
I can't link media, but Chris Wheeler just tweeted about players discussing amongst themselves that tactically things aren't working and a change should be made.

We have been through this enough at this point, I know what's happening here and Amorim might as well quit now and save face, because this is one of the first steps of the beginning of the end for him. Once leaks start coming from the dressing room it's only a matter of time.

INEOS really fecked up forcing him here midseason and not supporting him in the market. I think Amorim might be a case of the right manager at the wrong time, we don't have our shit together enough to take on that project. It's a shame, I really like him, but I have seen this play out several times and it's happening to Amorim now.
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Or maybe those players that don't like the system will be sold.weve hired a manager with the balls to let (and be allowed)our star homegrown player leave the club.maybe ineos are backing the manager to get things right over rhe course of more than just 6 months.
 
acnumber9 said:
And he was responsible for a large part of building that squad.
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This is what people forget. The reason why Ten Hag lost the support of the board & fans was 1) He had 2+ seasons to implement his system and was unable to do that 2) Considerable investment went in backing his vision with some of his big money signings turning into massive flops.
A mistake that Ten Hag made which Amorim seems conscious of not repeating is that he abandoned/ pushed out the implementation of his system in his first season. Instead, he almost continued the status quo in order to chase immediate results. In the second season, he had lost time and had instead raised expectations.

Amorim has learnt from that experience, immediately trying to implement the change and at the same time, doing a more effective job of preparing the fan base for short term pain through his communication.
 
JPRouve said:
The systeme doesn't give you more cover, it does the same thing than for example prime Barcelona when they were in the attacking phase, in transition the opposition had both wings to target, the middle was somewhat close by the CB duo and Busquets but even that wasn't actually solid. And everyone knew that, the only reason Barcelona weren't conceding tones of goals was because they had a very good high press and were extremely good at keeping the ball but all transitions opportunities for the opposition were extremely dangerous.
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Once we are in a low block, there is definitely more cover. Prime Barcelona played a very high press, I‘m not sure why that comparison would apply here.
 
Teja said:
I'm going to go off on a side track here for a bit but I used to attribute our pressing woes to our players simply being thick (basically the Klose example). Ole / McKenna have come and gone and so has Ten Hag. The whole squad has changed in the past five years and yet the symptoms still remain. We can't press and we can't build up against a fairly simple man to man pressing scheme.

The infamous donut shape under Ten Hag was because fullback was not following the winger high up the pitch and the defensive line (both the CBs) dropping too quickly instead of staying up high.

Now it's the two wide center backs not following their man high up the pitch.

I don't think it's as simple as tape vs pitch for us. We've changed managers, coaches, players, video analysts, psychologists and nothing really worked. The last (but probably the most obvious) culprit is the squad building itself. Minor things like the wide center back being a touch slow or the #10 being too lightweight or whatever will have knock-on effects on the press and will cause the whole thing to fall apart.

If it's not the coach or the players or the squad, maybe we're just cursed as a club and we have to suffer until the powers that be decide that we've had enough of that.
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I could not agree more. Both under Ten Hag and Amorim, defenders aren‘t stepping up consistently when needed, and opponents have it too easy playing through our midfield.
 
Red in STL said:
And you'd still prefer us to be like we were last season?
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hellhunter said:
And also in the abysmal games ETH had this season
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So the only way to play a back 4 with this squad is to adopt Ten Hag's tactics from last season of having a giant gap in midfield with a past-it Casemiro chasing shadows?

I'd like us to play a back 4 with more attacking football whilst also having some control in midfield. Is that too much to ask from this squad? The addition of Ugarte should've helped us move past the nightmare of last season's chaotic midfield structure.
 
Zico1982 said:
Opinion is changing among the fans. Up until now it has just been a few, but there is a growing dissatisfaction with what we are seeing on the pitch. It was quite obviously a mistake to go for Amorim mid season without funding the players he need in the january window. He is getting burnt right now, and the next games are crucial for him. Is this continues much longer, he will be out.
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And amongst the players according to twitter
 
JPRouve said:
The fullback part is wrong, in our attacking scheme the fullbacks were engaged very high and narrow, so the issue was the opposite of what you are describing they were too high at the start of transition which was the reason behind one of our main weakness on the wings in our own half, the other weakness was just behind the press which was also too high and flat. So the opposition always had two options play long balls quickly to either wings or target the big area between their box and the half way line just in front of the back two.
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Yes I agree - I meant Goal kick --> build up situation. It was too easy under Ten Hag for opposition teams to stick a player on the touch line, invite the press on the opposite side, switch the ball and progress from there. Sometimes our fullback would actually go high up and man mark the winger but that would leave only two CBs at the back which I think he was uncomfortable with.
 
NLunited said:
Once we are in a low block, there is definitely more cover. Prime Barcelona played a very high press, I‘m not sure why that comparison would apply here.
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There isn't more cover, it's not more stable, it's kind of counter intuitive but it doesn't actually provide more cover or stability. The system that offers the more cover and the more stability is the most popular system in Football, a flat 442, it's the system with the most obvious and easy pairings and covering schemes. Now by design it's not difficult to isolate players in 5221 the flaws are the same than with a 442 diamond the players in charge of keeping the width can easily be isolated, their helpers are by design relatively far from them in transition and there is often a diagonal open either in midfield or behind the fullback/wingback on that point Mazraoui has been caught by it several times.

The actual perks are with the ball because you constantly overload the opposition inside and out, though that's only true if your wingback are actual good at maintaining the width and are actual attacking threats, otherwise the opposition maintains a narrow shell and you are stuck.
 
We have have seen the same post put out by journalists no matter who has been the manager for the last 10 years. Usually its in season 2 or 3 not after 3 or 4 months.

If some players, if this post is in any way true, then they can and we can get players in who can and will play the system. Wouldnt take some these players to have had a different life and have to work in a proper job where you do what a manager tells you to do.
 
acnumber9 said:
I don’t think the changes are as seismic as you are suggesting. Nowhere near it in fact. I have asked you to tell me what is different about what the players have to do and you have done nothing but create ridiculous strawman arguments. Probably because you haven’t a notion what you’re talking about. You’re a waste of bandwidth.
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of course you don't, because if they were then you wouldn't have as much ammunition to throw at Amorim, which is clearly your priority.

Amorim's system clearly builds more from the back, and is far more patient and structured in possession than Eth's system, which was more interested in rapid transitions. Amorim's (idealised, at least - because we're not there yet) system utilises the width and attacking intent provided by the wing-backs and creating overloads in wide areas. His system utilises two 10s linking with the striker rather than one with Eth's system.

this forum is full of analysis on his system and how it compares to Eth's, never mind Amorim himself discussing at length the need for patience and time to instil his system. but nope, it's basically the same system according to you.

frankly i have no idea what games you've been watching. clearly you don't or can't discern any actual tactics when you watch football and are just fixated on wins and losses.
 
stepic said:
of course you don't, because if they were then you wouldn't have as much ammunition to throw at Amorim, which is clearly your priority.

Amorim's system clearly builds more from the back, and is far more patient and structured in possession than Eth's system, which was more interested in rapid transitions. Amorim's (idealised, at least - because we're not there yet) system utilises the width and attacking intent provided by the wing-backs and creating overloads in wide areas. His system utilises two 10s linking with the striker rather than one with Eth's system.

this forum is full of analysis on his system and how it compares to Eth's, never mind Amorim himself discussing at length the need for patience and time to instil his system. but nope, it's basically the same system according to you.

frankly i have no idea what games you've been watching. clearly you don't or can't discern any actual tactics when you watch football and are just fixated on wins and losses.
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My priority in this area is enjoying watching United play football and hopefully winning some games. Not enough of either are happening currently and I can only comment on what has transpired, not a mythical future.

That’s the massive change that our players can’t cope with? Slowly passing the ball around the back? If his system is so dependent upon width explain to me why he played inverted wingbacks and inverted 10’s in our last match because that achieves the exact opposite of width?

I have no idea what matches you’re watching but they aren’t Man United matches.

You’re an aggressive little man who hasn’t a clue what they’re talking about.
 
Random observation: I guess I never really appreciated how good the job war he did at Sporting. Watching Sporting lose at home against a usually miserable Dortmund team is really day and night compared to Sporting under Amorim.
 
pocco said:
Ten Hag got criticised for not trying to play the type of football that got him the job. Amorim sticks to his system no matter what, but the fans criticise him for it (even after zero signings and joining mid season).

Make it make sense.
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It's easy to make sense really. Ten hag's team's performances were horrendous for his last year and a half and Amorim's team has been even worse. Whether you change things or keep it the same, it simply has to better.
 
acnumber9 said:
My priority in this area is enjoying watching United play football and hopefully winning some games. Not enough of either are happening currently and I can only comment on what has transpired, not a mythical future.

That’s the massive change that our players can’t cope with? Slowly passing the ball around the back? If his system is so dependent upon width explain to me why he played inverted wingbacks and inverted 10’s in our last match because that achieves the exact opposite of width?

I have no idea what matches you’re watching but they aren’t Man United matches.

You’re an aggressive little man who hasn’t a clue what they’re talking about.
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:lol:

i'm sorry that when you watch football you literally have no idea what's going on in front of you.

i'm ignoring you now because frankly you're doing my head in.
 
stepic said:
:lol:

i'm sorry that when you watch football you literally have no idea what's going on in front of you.

i'm ignoring you now because frankly you're doing my head in.
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Thank God for that because you’re duller than watching United play.
 
Sporting 0-3 Dortmund tonight. We may not be sure about him and the formation working with current set of players but seems like Sporting are struggling since he left. Looking good in league but 4 defeats and a draw in 5 CL games since they beat City short before he joined United.
 
BorisManUtd said:
Sporting 0-3 Dortmund tonight. We may not be sure about him and the formation working with current set of players but seems like Sporting are struggling since he left. Looking good in league but 4 defeats and a draw in 5 CL games since they beat City short before he joined United.
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This just proves how easy the Portuguese league is.
 
Players don't think our tactics suit their style of play eh? Sounds familiar.

Guess what, they don't suit your style because the only way some of you can play is playground kick and rush football - which is why if you don;t or can't adapt you're out the door. If after having a pre season where he can actually implement it uninterrupted you still don't think you can handle, then feck off.

Ruben's style is the now the style of manchester united, it doesn;t pander or adapt for you. You adapt to it.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
This just proves how easy the Portuguese league is.
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Um, Amorim had Sporting 3rd in the CL table when he left, after having beaten City 4-1 in his last game.

He also broke the Porto-Benfica duopoly in the Portuguese league. The league might be inferior but so were the players at his disposal relative to what he was tasked with. This argument has never made any sense.
 
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