Club Ownership | INEOS responsible for the football side

[LawCharltonBest]

Still offering 3m for Dan Ashworth but Newcastle are demanding 15m, time to walk away from this and look for other targets

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Shame they all forgot to go to that arbitration in May. Could have sorted it out then

 

[Adnan]

It shouldn't make a difference to the current transfer window if Ashworth isn't in place. He's not a scout but rather someone that acts on the advice of the heads of recruitment. What they (INEOS/Ashworth) could've done is brought in a head of recruitment in preparation for this summer's transfer window but they haven't done that, eventhough we've been hearing since the turn of the year about a review being undertaken. And no, Dougie Freedman isn't a head of recruitment as far as I know and has never been one. The guys at Palace who identify talent are their recruitment heads and not their DoF.

Jason Wilcox isn't someone that was ever part of City's football structure at first team level. His work mostly at that club was at youth level where he was promoted several times to carry out a strategy that was already in place at the club. So it's his job to oversee the recruitment in the upcoming transfer window and the strategy should be the same whether Ashworth is here or not. At Brighton the drive for change started with their owner Tony Bloom and the people on the football side of the club then following suit.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

That's nonsense. This squad is much better than 8th best in the league, and even if we spend heavily (which I'm expecting), it's important to get a tune out of the current players. Players who performed well at other clubs before joining us, or players who performed well for us before this season happened, didn't just forget how to play football overnight.

When ETH became manager, he had just joined the club after an absolute disaster season that seen Ole sacked and Rangnick said in a press conference that the entire team needs replacing.

Not one person expected the club to follow that season by finishing 3rd and winning a trophy, if the team can be transformed from a disastrous season to an actual decent season, then it can happen again. The team overachieved then underachieved in consecutive seasons, its clear that 3rd place and 8th place are not really the true level of the team, it is somewhere in between.

The team has it in them to perform above their level.

 

[macheda14]

Still offering 3m for Dan Ashworth but Newcastle are demanding 15m, time to walk away from this and look for other targets

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It’s not about other targets. He’s agreed we’ve agreed. It’s just about waiting or finding a price.

 

[Escobar]

United fans are so fragile. Complaining that no decision is taken and once they take one, complain that it was the wrong one

 

[Martial'sEmergingSmile]

The Times (Hirst) reporting that Tuchel was put off by our transfer budget and wage structure.

£35m net budget for this season was apparently put to him.

Austerity era.

 

[Teja]

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Yeah the average caftard is more knowledgable about DOFs and various departments than Vida at this point.

 

[Teja]

The Times (Hirst) reporting that Tuchel was put off by our transfer budget and wage structure.

£35m net budget for this season was apparently put to him.

Austerity era.

I don't believe 35M net number. The Adam Crafton article says 50M net. That's before we qualified for the EL so it's probably a bit more now. (70M net?). You can have a pretty decent window with that if we manage to sell Sancho, Casemiro and Greenwood for good money.

 

[Amir]

The Times (Hirst) reporting that Tuchel was put off by our transfer budget and wage structure.

£35m net budget for this season was apparently put to him.

I'd say it's a little different than that.

Tuchel fell out of the running after holding talks with Ratcliffe in Monaco last week. One of Tuchel’s ideas was to sign Antonio Rüdiger, the 31-year-old Real Madrid centre back who is out of United’s price range (they only have a gross budget of about £35million to spend this summer); is considered too old; and would rather stay at Real than play Europa League football at Old Trafford next season.

 

[VP89]

The Times (Hirst) reporting that Tuchel was put off by our transfer budget and wage structure.

£35m net budget for this season was apparently put to him.

Austerity era.

Not true surely. Athletic said it was £50m net spend for ten hag and that's gone up now that he won the FA cup.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Shame they all forgot to go to that arbitration in May. Could have sorted it out then

Why didn’t that happen then?

 

[The holy trinity 68]

I don't believe 35M net number. The Adam Crafton article says 50M net. That's before we qualified for the EL so it's probably a bit more now. (70M net?). You can have a pretty decent window with that if we manage to sell Sancho, Casemiro and Greenwood for good money.

That on top of freeing up wages of Martial 250k per week, Varane 350k per week. That is £31.2 million annually.

 

[Plant0x84]

Would you not agree that ETH has been grossly incompetent this season?

Of course he wasn’t.

 

[Plant0x84]

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Vida gets it. Good lad.

 

[Raven]

Of course he wasn’t.

What makes you say that?

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Why didn’t that happen then?

Just assume everyone forgot. No mention of it since April

 

[Plant0x84]

What makes you say that?

Circumstances.

It wasn’t ten Hags fault we finished 8th. It wasn’t ten Hags fault we had a minus goal difference. It wasn’t ten Hags fault our players folded like a pack of cards.

Did he make mistakes? Yes of course. Did he contribute to our poor league campaign? Yes of course he did. Was it his incompetence alone that caused our issues? No, clearly not. You have to consider context and nuance, take the whole picture into account, everything is not as black and white as made out, and I still believe he is a very good coach.

 

[Raven]

Circumstances.

It wasn’t ten Hags fault we finished 8th. It wasn’t ten Hags fault we had a minus goal difference. It wasn’t ten Hags fault our players folded like a pack of cards.

Did he make mistakes? Yes of course. Did he contribute to our poor league campaign? Yes of course he did. Was it his incompetence alone that caused our issues? No, clearly not. You have to consider context and nuance, take the whole picture into account, everything is not as black and white as made out, and I still believe he is a very good coach.

For a guy that's supposed to be running the show, he doesn't seem to have much responsibility. Can you explain why he played suicide ball for 35 of our 38 league matches? Injuries did stack up this year to be fair but we couldn't score goals in his previous season and nobody forced him to play a 1 man midfield for 35 of our games.

 

[Telsim]

Shame they all forgot to go to that arbitration in May. Could have sorted it out then

Arbitrations don't happen in a few weeks, or even a month or two. It was nonsense by the clueless media to suggest it would be done that quickly. Far more likely his gardening leave will expire before any resolution by arbitration is reached.

 

[RedRocket9908]

It’s not about other targets. He’s agreed we’ve agreed. It’s just about waiting or finding a price.

It could be months before we get anywhere near appointing Ashworth if he even ends up coming, we would be better off withdrawing our interest now are look for other targets.

 

[roseguy64]

Still offering 3m for Dan Ashworth but Newcastle are demanding 15m, time to walk away from this and look for other targets

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There's still a tribunal to come

 

[Berbaclass]

There's still a tribunal to come

Was stated to be at the end of May, arbitration is confidential so it's possible it's already been decided.

 

[lex talionis]

Circumstances.

It wasn’t ten Hags fault we finished 8th. It wasn’t ten Hags fault we had a minus goal difference. It wasn’t ten Hags fault our players folded like a pack of cards.

Did he make mistakes? Yes of course. Did he contribute to our poor league campaign? Yes of course he did. Was it his incompetence alone that caused our issues? No, clearly not. You have to consider context and nuance, take the whole picture into account, everything is not as black and white as made out, and I still believe he is a very good coach.

You ask the right questions, for the most part, but these questions as asked don't allow for much nuance in the analysis of what happened that led to United finishing a ghastly eighth place in the PL and a humiliating last place in our CL group.

It is possible to believe that he is a "very good coach" but that he did a very poor job of coaching (managing) this season and I happen to believe that is the case. His management of United has been litigated endlessly this season but suffice it to say that there isn't a single poster here or club supporter anywhere who believes that ETH did a great or even good job of managing United this season. Not even Goldbridge would argue that.

What is arguable is that we suffered a unduly long series of lengthy injury absences, but that is the only argument in his defense I have ever heard. The big names that ETH brought in at his insistence include Antony, Mount and Onana...of that we can be 100% sure. The first name is an undeniable flop, the second name is a player who makes no sense for this squad and the third name was a downgrade from De Gea but at least the theory of Onana's impact had a defensible rationale. So call that roughly 200m that was misallocated. Hojlund was an overspend but you can see the potential there so let's not hold Hojlund against ten Hag. And of course the problems with Sancho and Rashford were arguably beyond ten Hag's control, but it is also arguable that ten Hag mismanaged both of them.

But it's the tactics that dragged us down into an early CL exit and 8th in the PL. The question we all have to ask ourselves is whether ETH has learned anything from this season or will he make the same mistakes again next season? There's obviously no way for us to know the answer, but we have to hope that he has learned from his mistakes.

 

[macheda14]

It could be months before we get anywhere near appointing Ashworth if he even ends up coming, we would be better off withdrawing our interest now are look for other targets.

These positions are long long term, they aren’t 3 years like a manager they’re supposed to be for much longer. We don’t need to rush if he’s the best man for the job. Rome wasn’t built in a day, nor is a club changed in a summer.

 

[Woziak]

That NYtimes article is more journalistic nonsense. People love some hyperbole, and United fans are such easy targets right now. Huge sections of the fan base are frothing at the mouth, ready to get the pitchforks out, so winding them up with doom mongering and claims of chaos is just too easy. Too many clicks to be had. The press equivalent of a tap in.

Reminds me of about three years ago when there were all these articles saying how bad the academy was and how far behind it had slipped versus all of our rivals, especially City. Previous United players sending their kids to City’s academy because ours was so terrible. No actual content on the quality of coaching, all just smoke and mirrors based around shiny new facilities. Three years later United continue to churn out class players from the academy, and are clearly the top big club in England when it comes to youth development. Especially when you factor in pathways to the first team. If it hadn’t been for factors out of our control, we could have a front three (Rashford, Garnacho and Greenwood) of top players from our academy starting for the first team. And what other big club can say that? None.

People need to massively chill out and let this summer play out. The media is feeding off the fear caused by decades of incompetence and indifference by the Glazers. It’s simply impossible at this early stage to know (a) what the Ineos regime is doing behind the scenes, and (b) how the trajectory of the club will change under their stewardship. This is something to be measured in years, not days or weeks.

I’m very relaxed at this point. They’ve already appointed a lot of top people. They are clearly doing extensive analysis and due diligence on the manager position. And it’s not like we are currently without a manager. We have one that the majority of the fan base apparently want to keep (however misguided that sentiment is), and who is currently on holiday. There’s not a lot of transfer business happening in the lead up to the Euros. Hardly anyone has done anything yet. So this is the perfect time to do all this analysis and due diligence. I am quite sure that targets have already been sounded out, agents spoken to, and the work of offloading players and working on the budgets and organisational structure is ongoing.

Nothing is going to be solved in one summer. The Glazers have made such a mess of this, it’s going to take 2-3 years to get us to a stable, sustainably competitive position - barring miracles from the anointed coach. And that’s exactly how we should be looking at this. Not so much where we are at the end of the season, but more where we are in 3 years. Are we on a solid upward trajectory? Has the squad been adequately retooled with players that fit a consistent playing philosophy, to the point where we don’t need massive turnover every year? Has training and medical infrastructure improved? Are we on a concrete path to a new or redeveloped stadium? Is the club consistently profitable to the point where it can reinvest significantly in the playing squad and future capital improvement projects? Are fan groups being consistently engaged and listened to, and being made a part of a community based approach to local regeneration? Are we continuing to embrace, and improve, our youth development record and pathway to the first team? Have we managed to reignite growth in the commercial department as a key cog of profitability? Etc etc.

The modernisation and reorganisation of the club is a massive project that will take time, patience, and facing a lot of difficult decisions. It’s so much bigger than rushing to placate fans with rapid decisions, or bringing in some marquee players for a short term uptick. It’s about reigniting this club and rebuilding the foundations, which have rotted out beneath our feet. It’s a massive job. So all the nervousness and judgement from certain sections of our fans, and all the gleeful hyperbole and mockery from select sections of the media, are essentially meaningless to those who really understand what needs to be done.

What I have seen so far is a regime that has brought in several of the most coveted football experts in the world. Ashworth, a man universally lauded for his work in the industry, Berrada, one if the most highly rated executives in the football world, Wilcox, another highly rated executive talent, one who turned downed Liverpool to come to us. Blanc, as a temporary CEO, and having a permanent seat on the board, as a man of huge experience and repute in European football. A French David Gill. We’ve poached top medical people from Arsenal. There’s actual movement on the stadium with some heavy football, finance, sport, and political figures involved, with work ongoing to secure public funding or tax breaks. There is a huge sweeping review of operations which is already creating organisationally wide changes.

There is so much evidence to suggest that Ineos is going about things in a deliberate, informed, decisive and expert way, and yet people are derailed so easily by a two week wait to know the fate of the manager. I suspect the bed wetters right now are the same people who will laud a young player for being a massive talent one week, only to call him absolute shit a few weeks or months later. And I don’t suppose there is much one can do about people who think like that. Must be stressful. For them. For the rest of us, those who don’t like to live in a constant vortex of drama, gossip, hyperbole, extremes, conspiracy and vitriol, the early signs are positive and we need to let it play out over an extended period of time before coming to any serious judgement.

For context, in 2017 I was appointed CEO of a small to medium sized business with 150 employees. The previous CEO had virtually bankrupted the company, the public image was shot, debts had piled up, and the organisational culture was toxic. It took me two years to turn that company around, to the point where it was profitable again, debts were cleared, we had a positive public image, and it was a desirable place to work again. Two years, and this was a small, tiny company by comparison, with not even 5% of the complexity of a massive club like United. That first year especially, I was haunted by the litany of terrible decisions made my by predecesor, and had to own many of them as the consequences of his decisions often weren’t felt for several months after he had been relieved of command. That was at least 18 months of abuse from people, people angry about what came before and that change wasn’t happening fast enough, and then other people angry about any change happening at all. “What do you mean I have to come to work on time???” These were the same people who two years later were lapping up the success and pretending to have been a key supporter and influencer in the change initiative all along.

People are predictable, and largely quite stupid. People want change immediately, but they also complain about most of the changes. One thing they definitely don’t want you to do is think about your changes, and take time to plan them out and do them properly. That’s just indecisive and dithering, until it isn’t and all the thoughtful hard work starts to pay off, and then they were a crucial part of it all along.

This is a Seriously fantastic post and you said it way better than most of us, I too was headhunted by A big company to go and turn around a failing business, everything you say is so on the button.

like you I watched cautiously how Ineos operating behind the scenes, the appointment of their own CEO, Omar Berrada and then clearly they’re own CFO Roger Bell told me in no uncertain terms they are in full control of turning this behemoth around but the sheer scale of the debt of the club has only recently been realised and more importantly, the Lack of actual Cashflow and working cash within the business, the employee cut backs, the call for staff to return to offices where employees can be KPI’d and managed correctly is exactly what needed to happen.

Roger Bell who used to work for Ineos is a lifelong United Fan, like Sir Jim , they will all want to win but all of the Ineos directors would be looking at a business that turns over £650m and loses £40m and they will want to know how that’s possible, they will see United as the Blue Chip English Club that’s one of the Top 3 potentially to be monetised in World football and then when they start unravelling document after document, contract after contract, they simply won’t believe what they unravel!

I also believe that Ineos would invest more money for transfers but not with a 27.7% stake, I’m sure if more money was needed and recommended by Wilcox, Berada and Ashcroft then Sor Jim would invest but not with gaining more shares for doing so. The PSR/FFP. UEFA FSR rules are not the reason why £50-100m is being suggested as a transfer budget, the true reason is working cash and available cash within the business to buy players

 

[astracrazy]

The Times (Hirst) reporting that Tuchel was put off by our transfer budget and wage structure.

£35m net budget for this season was apparently put to him.

Austerity era.

I doubt its £35M, more realistic figures have been suggested.

Having said that, sounds like a blessing in disguise then.

 

[strandty]

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[Plant0x84]

For a guy that's supposed to be running the show, he doesn't seem to have much responsibility. Can you explain why he played suicide ball for 35 of our 38 league matches? Injuries did stack up this year to be fair but we couldn't score goals in his previous season and nobody forced him to play a 1 man midfield for 35 of our games.

Why do you say he doesn’t have much responsibility? In my opinion he has more than he should have given the lack of technical support from those above him up to now. I don’t understand your point here.

I agree with the bolded though, this should have been a priority to resolve in the summer, but the club wouldn’t get Kane and he pivoted to change the goalkeeper instead to be able to play out from the back and change our style of play.

When Ole insisted on playing McFred as a double pivot many bemoaned that as old fashioned, and complained we should play a single pivot to be more attacking. ETH is doing this, but the issue now is personnel - especially in the light of injuries and Casemiros form. It’s a matter of personal opinion whether you think he was right to train/play this way regardless or if you think he should have been more pragmatic and adapted his tactics to suit the players available. There is merit and drawback in both approaches, but the results speak for themselves.

 

[Plant0x84]

You ask the right questions, for the most part, but these questions as asked don't allow for much nuance in the analysis of what happened that led to United finishing a ghastly eighth place in the PL and a humiliating last place in our CL group.

I do think the PL campaign and the CL campaign are different scenarios with different reasons, although obviously the outcome was similar. We were in some great positions during our CL group games and regularly conceded multiple goals through stupid individual errors. Onana finding his feet in this team was a large portion of that although I don’t blame him solely. He was however much more error prone in the CL than the league.

It is possible to believe that he is a "very good coach" but that he did a very poor job of coaching (managing) this season

Absolutely that is possible, but I disagree here. I feel his first season was an over achievement and this past season he has done well to hold it together. I don’t think a poor job of coaching achieves that. It certainly doesn’t with a trophy. There were times under Jose and Ole where it was apparent they hadn’t got a clue how to turn a game in our favour and we would stumble from one humiliation to another wondering where the next 3pts was coming from. I don’t get that feeling with Erik.

The big names that ETH brought in at his insistence include Antony, Mount and Onana...of that we can be 100% sure. The first name is an undeniable flop, the second name is a player who makes no sense for this squad and the third name was a downgrade from De Gea but at least the theory of Onana's impact had a defensible rationale. So call that roughly 200m that was misallocated. Hojlund was an overspend but you can see the potential there so let's not hold Hojlund against ten Hag.

I agree entirely with your assessment of the players mentioned, and I think ten Hag has to take some blame for them, but I think we should separate the player performance and the fee paid for that player. I also don’t hold Erik responsible for the fee, and the money wasted. That is on the club and the people who negotiated such poor deals.

it is also arguable that ten Hag mismanaged both of them.

Again I disagree here. I think he has handled Sancho and Rashford admirably. Marcus has been dealt with when he has stepped out of line and the way Erik has dealt with Jadon is perfect. He tried to help, afforded him extra training and time to rehab but Sancho has largely thrown that in ten Hags face. You can understand why he would be disappointed and just want the player out of the club.

 

[Adnan]

When Ole insisted on playing McFred as a double pivot many bemoaned that as old fashioned, and complained we should play a single pivot to be more attacking. ETH is doing this, but the issue now is personnel - especially in the light of injuries and Casemiros form. It’s a matter of personal opinion whether you think he was right to train/play this way regardless or if you think he should have been more pragmatic and adapted his tactics to suit the players available. There is merit and drawback in both approaches, but the results speak for themselves.

This is a good point you bring up about the double pivot in midfield. We had threads on here saying the double pivot was a dated approach at the time of Ole being the manager. The issue was never the double pivot but rather the players occupying the double pivot and the lack of technical quality within those positions. And the reason it became a thing with Fred and McTominay was due to the signings that were made at the back who needed legs to cover ground for them. To have a GK like De Gea with a CB pairing of Lindelof and Maguire whilst also signing Wan Bissaka at RB caused a big problem against the opponent's high press hence the McFred pairing was mainly used to protect the backline. The double pivot in that scenario became effective but it was never going to get us to challenge the very best teams because to play proactive attacking football you need your team to resist the press from the back and play through the thirds, press high as a collective and contain or control transitions from the back and deeper midfield, which is what we failed to do.

So of course using a double pivot can be advantageous, but if the aim is to press high in a higher line then I don't see the point in setting up in a double pivot in a lower block when it would be much better to transition quickly to the likes of Rashford and Bruno who thrive in transition especially after losing your best ball players at the back to injury. It's why Mourinho's second place finish for me was a false dawn because the football he was developing centred around controlling spaces without the ball whilst Klopp and Guardiola were developing teams to dominate the game in all phases of play and provoke the opponent to make mistakes in their own half. It was really obvious what ten Hag was attempting to do but he had adapted his in-possession game by going more direct without losing the high pressing element from the front. The guys at the back weren't pushing up to support the forwards and midfielders, and hence the fullbacks didn't know if they should stay or go. This is very basic stuff to sort out imo and we're now looking at what Wilcox and Co will deliver in the transfer window. I don't think it's difficult to see what needs to be done and what profiles need to be brought to the club.

Diogo Dalot in the clip below quite clearly mentions the role of the CBs which should be to close off the space in a higher line and defend 1v1. This is basic stuff if you have the correct profile of players.


https://x.com/EthanTaIks/status/1769725116357730443?t=P0YqdCwImwfRo9pQi3AY6Q&s=19

 

[Raven]

Why do you say he doesn’t have much responsibility? In my opinion he has more than he should have given the lack of technical support from those above him up to now. I don’t understand your point here.

I agree with the bolded though, this should have been a priority to resolve in the summer, but the club wouldn’t get Kane and he pivoted to change the goalkeeper instead to be able to play out from the back and change our style of play.

When Ole insisted on playing McFred as a double pivot many bemoaned that as old fashioned, and complained we should play a single pivot to be more attacking. ETH is doing this, but the issue now is personnel - especially in the light of injuries and Casemiros form. It’s a matter of personal opinion whether you think he was right to train/play this way regardless or if you think he should have been more pragmatic and adapted his tactics to suit the players available. There is merit and drawback in both approaches, but the results speak for themselves.

This affords ETH far too little agency. It's possible to play 433 with a single pivot without leaving 40 yards of space between the pivot and their nearest midfield partners. He's playing an attacking line miles high and then leaves a low to medium block defence, it's suicide ball and he's the only person to blame for that. Casemiro's form has been rubbish but it has not helped that he's left totally isolated both in and out of possession. Perhaps if he'd landed Frenkie, we would see his vision bearing fruit,
but we didn't and he's refused to be pragmatic about it, leading to numerous unwanted records being broken and our season totally ruined.

 

[Raven]

This is a good point you bring up about the double pivot in midfield. We had threads on here saying the double pivot was a dated approach at the time of Ole being the manager. The issue was never the double pivot but rather the players occupying the double pivot and the lack of technical quality within those positions. And the reason it became a thing with Fred and McTominay was due to the signings that were made at the back who needed legs to cover ground for them. To have a GK like De Gea with a CB pairing of Lindelof and Maguire whilst also signing Wan Bissaka at RB caused a big problem against the opponent's high press hence the McFred pairing was mainly used to protect the backline. The double pivot in that scenario became effective but it was never going to get us to challenge the very best teams because to play proactive attacking football you need your team to resist the press from the back and play through the thirds, press high as a collective and contain or control transitions from the back and deeper midfield, which is what we failed to do.

So of course using a double pivot can be advantageous, but if the aim is to press high in a higher line then I don't see the point in setting up in a double pivot in a lower block when it would be much better to transition quickly to the likes of Rashford and Bruno who thrive in transition especially after losing your best ball players at the back to injury. It's why Mourinho's second place finish for me was a false dawn because the football he was developing centred around controlling spaces without the ball whilst Klopp and Guardiola were developing teams to dominate the game in all phases of play and provoke the opponent to make mistakes in their own half. It was really obvious what ten Hag was attempting to do but he had adapted his in-possession game by going more direct without losing the high pressing element from the front. The guys at the back weren't pushing up to support the forwards and midfielders, and hence the fullbacks didn't know if they should stay or go. This is very basic stuff to sort out imo and we're now looking at what Wilcox and Co will deliver in the transfer window. I don't think it's difficult to see what needs to be done and what profiles need to be brought to the club.

Diogo Dalot in the clip below quite clearly mentions the role of the CBs which should be to close off the space in a higher line and defend 1v1. This is basic stuff if you have the correct profile of players.


https://x.com/EthanTaIks/status/1769725116357730443?t=P0YqdCwImwfRo9pQi3AY6Q&s=19

Just on that clip you've shared, Dalot really is a great speaker and seems very clever tactically.

 

[Kirk lazarus]

Diogo Dalot in the clip below quite clearly mentions the role of the CBs which should be to close off the space in a higher line and defend 1v1. This is basic stuff if you have the correct profile of players.

I agree that it is very easy to sort out . The reason it will be easy to sort out , is because persevering with the play style despite it not suiting the available players is how it is highlighted .

The game is played in split seconds . A players natural instinct will always play key in these moments .

There is only a split second where the choice is engage or retreat , for that to happen , the natural instinct needs to be to engage rather than retreat . It is not something that coaching will overcome . The hardest place to go against a natural instinct is the heat of battle .

It's player profiling . If we hadn't persevered ( as we didn't in ETH first season ) we would be in the same position going into this transfer window .

Trying to target players for a potential future style based on our performances in a different style . It's adding a variable .

A lot seem to have made their mind up that the football we played was peak Hag ball , as good as it can get ?

I think 4 players , suited to what he wants will swing the statistics in our favour . A lot of our opponents chances / shots will be extinguished earlier and not materialise , they will more likely end up being another chance for us . Higher transitions .

 

[lex talionis]

I do think the PL campaign and the CL campaign are different scenarios with different reasons, although obviously the outcome was similar. We were in some great positions during our CL group games and regularly conceded multiple goals through stupid individual errors. Onana finding his feet in this team was a large portion of that although I don’t blame him solely. He was however much more error prone in the CL than the league.

Absolutely that is possible, but I disagree here. I feel his first season was an over achievement and this past season he has done well to hold it together. I don’t think a poor job of coaching achieves that. It certainly doesn’t with a trophy. There were times under Jose and Ole where it was apparent they hadn’t got a clue how to turn a game in our favour and we would stumble from one humiliation to another wondering where the next 3pts was coming from. I don’t get that feeling with Erik.

I agree entirely with your assessment of the players mentioned, and I think ten Hag has to take some blame for them, but I think we should separate the player performance and the fee paid for that player. I also don’t hold Erik responsible for the fee, and the money wasted. That is on the club and the people who negotiated such poor deals.

Again I disagree here. I think he has handled Sancho and Rashford admirably. Marcus has been dealt with when he has stepped out of line and the way Erik has dealt with Jadon is perfect. He tried to help, afforded him extra training and time to rehab but Sancho has largely thrown that in ten Hags face. You can understand why he would be disappointed and just want the player out of the club.

On Point 1, we should have been to destroy the CL group even with individual errors. But whether we're talking about the PL or the CL isn't it true that we were in horrific form right out of the gate in the new season? We didn't put together a convincing win in any competition until January or February. We scraped points, which on its terms is admirable but we were scraping points all season long until a couple of solid wins in mid-season. We were horrific in pre-season, horrific against Wolves and horrific in the CL. We never looked like a club that could go on a decent run of wins all season long...and in fact now that it occurs to me to ask the question I don't think we went on a nice 4 win run until the end of the season, capped off by the magnificent win over City. Point is, we were in shambles as the season began.

On Point 2, Season 1 and Season 2 were completely different beasts although most of us were happy with how things ended in Season 1 however one looks at it Season 2 was a massive regression. A regression with excuses, but a massive regression. Sometimes you have to take a step back to take steps forward but Season 2 was several steps backward. What that means for the future is hard to say and obviously we all hope for the best, but there's no way around the fact that we took several steps backward after taking a step forward.

On Point 3, I can overlook the fees to a point but I'm not even worried about the fees we paid for Antony and Mount. These are players we didn't need and arguably not even great squad options for us. I happen to like Mount as a footballer but he isn't at all what we needed last summer during a transfer window where we had known deficiencies that went unaddressed by the manager.

On Point 4, we can never know what we'll never know so who knows what went wrong with Sancho and Rashford this year, but it's clear something went very wrong and it's very unlikely that all responsibility lies with the players themselves. Ferguson was a master of man management -- when to kick a boot at a player and when to put an arm around another player. There's nothing about ETH that suggests brilliance at man management. He did well to let Garnacho and Mainoo flourish, so props to him for that, but can it be said that he got the best out of any other players that there is to be gotten? I don't think so. What happened with Sancho and Rashford is largely on Sancho and Rashford, but one of the core requirements of a top manager is to enable his players to break through psychological barriers -- as Ferguson did with Keane, Beckham and others who had to cope with various personal pressures and even demons and help them achieve team and personal greatness. We all hope for the best and I agree with keeping him if for no other reason than the paucity of alternatives, but there's nothing about ETH to indicate that he's a great man manager of football players. Certainly his handling of Antony alone, who did show a thing or two with Ajax but has been a complete flop, supports that concern. As for his handling of Sancho and Rashford, perhaps he was in an impossible situation with Sancho so he perhaps he actually did the very best he could with him, but his handling of Rashford was definitely not optimal.

 

[croadyman]

Still offering 3m for Dan Ashworth but Newcastle are demanding 15m, time to walk away from this and look for other targets

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Yeah we should have had other DOF options too

 

[Tarrou]

looks a bit like Teddy in that pic

 

[Blood Mage]

Just go for Dougie Freedman instead. It's criminal that we won't have a sporting director in time for such a crucial transfer window.

 

[croadyman]

Just go for Dougie Freedman instead. It's criminal that we won't have a sporting director in time for such a crucial transfer window.

Who are the other DOF's on the market, agree the whole mess around this is gonna hurt this window

 

[Adnan]

I agree that it is very easy to sort out . The reason it will be easy to sort out , is because persevering with the play style despite it not suiting the available players is how it is highlighted .

The game is played in split seconds . A players natural instinct will always play key in these moments .

There is only a split second where the choice is engage or retreat , for that to happen , the natural instinct needs to be to engage rather than retreat . It is not something that coaching will overcome . The hardest place to go against a natural instinct is the heat of battle .

It's player profiling . If we hadn't persevered ( as we didn't in ETH first season ) we would be in the same position going into this transfer window .

Trying to target players for a potential future style based on our performances in a different style . It's adding a variable .

A lot seem to have made their mind up that the football we played was peak Hag ball , as good as it can get ?

I think 4 players , suited to what he wants will swing the statistics in our favour . A lot of our opponents chances / shots will be extinguished earlier and not materialise , they will more likely end up being another chance for us . Higher transitions .

You make excellent points.

I think if he had reverted to type ala Ole or Mourinho after injuries to key players in the build up phase, and gone back to the double pivot in a more conservative play style, it would hide the deficiencies of some of the players who naturally struggle to defend higher up the pitch in 1v1s. And I don't think we would learn anything from that as far as transitioning into a more dominant team, but it would (imo) be counter productive in the mid to longerm, because it would create a false sense of security with a belief that some of the players in the backline who very obviously struggle to play higher up the pitch when the opponent's close off the space quickly via the high press, aren't the problem. And it was very clear to see that the backline wasn't closing off the space which is the absolute basics in this type of setup.

I don't believe we've come close to the football ten Hag wants to implement. I think strides have been made to change things by removing certain players with a view to playing a more proactive game, and also the introduction of the young kids into the team like Mainoo and Garnacho. But as far as how close he is to getting the first 11 to play a more positional game in possession and a higher intensity without the ball, I agree 4 players with the requisite attributes will change the dynamics of the first 11. I think just two players will have a huge impact if those players are a RCB and holding midfielder with the requisite qualities. When you improve your first 11, the squad depth will automatically improve.

And like you say the statistics will paint a very different picture with a backline stepping into areas vacated by the midfield when applying the press from the front. In that situation the space will be between the GK and the two CBs.

I think as far as the fans are concerned, a blood sacrifice has to be made for the league season. But for me it was absolutely the correct decision to carry on with the project and I think if they get the right players in, we will see a big upturn in performances. Hopefully we have some luck with injuries to go along with that.

 

[croadyman]

You make excellent points.

I think if he had reverted to type ala Ole or Mourinho after injuries to key players in the build up phase, and gone back to the double pivot in a more conservative play style, it would hide the deficiencies of some of the players who naturally struggle to defend higher up the pitch in 1v1s. And I don't think we would learn anything from that as far as transitioning into a more dominant team, but it would (imo) be counter productive in the mid to longerm, because it would create a false sense of security with a belief that some of the players in the backline who very obviously struggle to play higher up the pitch when the opponent's close off the space quickly via the high press, aren't the problem. And it was very clear to see that the backline wasn't closing off the space which is the absolute basics in this type of setup.

I don't believe we've come close to the football ten Hag wants to implement. I think strides have been made to change things by removing certain players with a view to playing a more proactive game, and also the introduction of the young kids into the team like Mainoo and Garnacho. But as far as how close he is to getting the first 11 to play a more positional game in possession and a higher intensity without the ball, I agree 4 players with the requisite attributes will change the dynamics of the first 11. I think just two players will have a huge impact if those players are a RCB and holding midfielder with the requisite qualities. When you improve your first 11, the squad depth will automatically improve.

And like you say the statistics will paint a very different picture with a backline stepping into areas vacated by the midfield when applying the press from the front. In that situation the space will be between the GK and the two CBs.

I think as far as the fans are concerned, a blood sacrifice has to be made for the league season. But for me it was absolutely the correct decision to carry on with the project and I think if they get the right players in, we will see a big upturn in performances. Hopefully we have some luck with injuries to go along with that.

Which RCB and holding midfielder?