SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Quarantining people coming from countries with similar infection levels to our own country couldn’t make any difference when people staying in the UK can still go to work etc.

Reducing additional sources of infection always make a difference. At this stage it looks like a second wave is well on its way in the UK and controlling it will require multiple measure each of which won't be a solution on its own.
 
Last edited:
Reducing additional sources of infection always make a difference. At this stage it looks like a second wave is well in its way in the UK and controlling it will require multiple measure each of which won't be a solution on its own.
It’s not really an additional source unless they’ve actually contracted it. Which they’re just as likely to do in the UK. Fair enough if the infection levels are way lower but they’re not really.
 
It’s not really an additional source unless they’ve actually contracted it. Which they’re just as likely to do in the UK. Fair enough if the infection levels are way lower but they’re not really.

It is an additional source as without quarantine you are guaranteed to be bringing additional infection into the country even though not every person coming in will be infected. You can't compare the infection rate in the source country and not worry about it if it is lower than the UK as you will still be importing additional infections which will result in even more UK infections. Border controls (national, State, region or county) are valuable because it allows you to reduce infection within that boundary and not import more. In theory you can eliminate inside one area and keep it that way. Each area/cell can then be joined together as they eliminate and only areas that still have infection are isolated/restricted. It is what is working in Australia and prevented Victoria's ourbreak spreading nationwide and it was used to great effect in NZ. Even if you don't eliminate or aim for elimination (and AU hasn't aimed for elimination, just significant suppression) it is a very valuable tool to flatten the curve.

The trouble in the UK is that this ship has probably sailed and even if it were possible a government as chaotic and incompetent as Bojo's clown posse couldn't provide the leadership that would be require to take hearts and mind with them.
 
Last edited:
It is an additional source as without quarantine you are guaranteed to be bringing additional infection into the country even though not every person coming in will be infected. You can't compare the infection rate in the source country and not worry about it if it is lower than the UK as you will still be importing additional infections which will result in even more UK infections. Border controls (national, State, region or county) are valuable because it allows you to reduce infection within that boundary and not import more. In theory you can eliminate inside one area and keep it that way. Each area/cell can then be joined together as they eliminate and only areas that still have infection are isolated/restricted. It is what is working in Australia and prevented Victoria's ourbreak spreading nationwide and it was used to great effect in NZ. Even if you don't eliminate or aim for elimination (and AU hasn't aimed for elimination, just significant suppression) it is a very valuable tool to flatten the curve.

The trouble in the UK is that this ship has probably sailed and even if it were possible a government as chaotic and incompetent as Bojo's clown posse couldn't provide the leadership that would be require to take hearts and mind with them.
That’s only the case if you’re more likely to catch it by being in a different country than you are in your own country. If you’ve a 1 in 100 chance of getting it in Coventry and a 1 in 100 chance of getting it in Madrid it doesn’t matter which you catch it in. If you go about your daily business you’re just as likely to give it to somebody else. You aren’t importing a new case by picking it up somewhere else. You’re just changing where you got it.
 
That makes no sense. You are importing a case you wouldn't have otherwise had and that person will infect 3-6 others who will in turn infect 3-6 others. Make them quarantine and you won't import that case into the country. It is that simple.
 
Bingo. I’m glad I’m not working there. Sounds like a shitshow there for a while.

Yeh sounds mad there.

My grandfather actually went there on Tuesday for a pre-op exam which is quite worrying. I'd like to think that they took all the precautions they possibly could have but it's still a nightmare.
 
Yeh sounds mad there.

My grandfather actually went there on Tuesday for a pre-op exam which is quite worrying. I'd like to think that they took all the precautions they possibly could have but it's still a nightmare.

I think that should have been OK. This is the issue with the COVID testing I think. Not reliable.

I’m on call this week - had a lady come in on Monday with oxygen saturations of 74% (should be >98%) with a temperature of 39.
Nailed on COVID. Swabbed her, negative.
Couldn’t believe it. I told them to swab her again before they move her up to a “non-COVID” ward. Second swab came back positive.

Probably what’s happened in Glam. Patient falsely tested negative and just gone upstairs and infected a ward and then it just moves from ward to ward.

Alternatively, a super-spreader non-symptomatic staff member in ED has given it resulting in a few pages being infected and going up to ward.

Don’t know which one is more damaging.
 
My least favourite “I’m so smart” rebuttal at the moment is “how many times have you been to the drs with a virus and they say there’s nothing they can do just let it run it’s course and you’ll be fine”

Yeah great for those viruses but if you go in with HIV they’ll treat it otherwise you’ll die you utter feckwits
 
My least favourite “I’m so smart” rebuttal at the moment is “how many times have you been to the drs with a virus and they say there’s nothing they can do just let it run it’s course and you’ll be fine”

Yeah great for those viruses but if you go in with HIV they’ll treat it otherwise you’ll die you utter feckwits

Obviously they’re far too stupid to reason with but you could also ask them why all the sick people in hospital are wearing masks with wee tubes going into them and why there’s been so much talk about ventilators? Without oxygen and ICU beds the death rate would be many times higher.
 
Obviously they’re far too stupid to reason with but you could also ask them why all the sick people in hospital are wearing masks with wee tubes going into them and why there’s been so much talk about ventilators? Without oxygen and ICU beds the death rate would be many times higher.

Assuming this is a Scottish “wee”, very unfortunate use.
 
I think that should have been OK. This is the issue with the COVID testing I think. Not reliable.

I’m on call this week - had a lady come in on Monday with oxygen saturations of 74% (should be >98%) with a temperature of 39.
Nailed on COVID. Swabbed her, negative.
Couldn’t believe it. I told them to swab her again before they move her up to a “non-COVID” ward. Second swab came back positive.

Probably what’s happened in Glam. Patient falsely tested negative and just gone upstairs and infected a ward and then it just moves from ward to ward.

Alternatively, a super-spreader non-symptomatic staff member in ED has given it resulting in a few pages being infected and going up to ward.

Don’t know which one is more damaging.

I’m hearing similar stories from my friends working in Irish hospitals. And you’d expect the swabbing technique (and storage/transfer of sample) to be much less prone to error in hospitals. So it’s kind of mind boggling to think how many cases are missed in the community, with people going straight back to school/work/pub after the reassurance of a “negative” test result.

So many assholes on social media shitting on about false positives, while false negatives are a) more likely and b) a much bigger problem.
 
Quarantining people coming from countries with similar infection levels to our own country couldn’t make any difference when people staying in the UK can still go to work etc.

It makes an impact, the reason of Bolton being the worst affected LA in the country for September is due to the logic you're stating. Someone didn't quarantine and went out on the town and passed it to others, not thinking that they had it. The quarantine element is a useful test and tracing method for the potential import of cases. I would argue there's no need for a quarantine process if our testing and tracing process is 'world class' but this is where the government have failed miserably on multiple counts and this is their only choice.
 
I’m hearing similar stories from my friends working in Irish hospitals. And you’d expect the swabbing technique (and storage/transfer of sample) to be much less prone to error in hospitals. So it’s kind of mind boggling to think how many cases are missed in the community, with people going straight back to school/work/pub after the reassurance of a “negative” test result.

I think this is an understated point with regards to testing. My other half had her swab test for work on Monday (all clear) but she said that she reckons a majority of the home tests aren't being done properly due to peoples fear of sticking items up their nose & down their throat.
 
Obviously they’re far too stupid to reason with but you could also ask them why all the sick people in hospital are wearing masks with wee tubes going into them and why there’s been so much talk about ventilators? Without oxygen and ICU beds the death rate would be many times higher.

Beyond believe how stupid they are

The last one I saw was from someone who’s had corona (apparently) and now is convinced it’s not dangerous because she didn’t get symptoms. Well no ones denied that ever, in fact the asymptotic people are part of the reason this is so dangerous.

Obviously a staunch anti masker too, I could ask her why after hours of a mask in hospital the other night I could have a resting HR of 68 with no lower than 99% o2 saturation despite being asthmatic but they’d find some dumb excuse. Most of the medical exemptions are bullshit too that don’t really mean you can’t wear a mask. The only time I take mine down in shops is to speak to my girlfriend as she needs to lip read in certain situations and can’t always understand the workers.

Just sick of it all :lol:
 
One of our neighbours got a large tattoo done. She was showing the pictures on her FB. No mask in sight, either for her or the person doing the tattoo. It probably took 4-5 hours for this tattoo. Indoors.

So if this is how the tattooist is doing his clients, good luck!
 
One of our neighbours got a large tattoo done. She was showing the pictures on her FB. No mask in sight, either for her or the person doing the tattoo. It probably took 4-5 hours for this tattoo. Indoors.

So if this is how the tattooist is doing his clients, good luck!

Does my head in, as much as our government in the UK have been dire they also don’t stand a chance when so many people couldn’t give a feck, and I know some decisions they’ve made haven’t helped but people look for any stupid excuse to do what they want.
 
I think this is an understated point with regards to testing. My other half had her swab test for work on Monday (all clear) but she said that she reckons a majority of the home tests aren't being done properly due to peoples fear of sticking items up their nose & down their throat.
My wife and I were chatting about that as we have both had camera tests up noses and down throats. She’s phobic about it. No way we’d be able to do it properly ourselves
 
Beyond believe how stupid they are

The last one I saw was from someone who’s had corona (apparently) and now is convinced it’s not dangerous because she didn’t get symptoms. Well no ones denied that ever, in fact the asymptotic people are part of the reason this is so dangerous.

Obviously a staunch anti masker too, I could ask her why after hours of a mask in hospital the other night I could have a resting HR of 68 with no lower than 99% o2 saturation despite being asthmatic but they’d find some dumb excuse. Most of the medical exemptions are bullshit too that don’t really mean you can’t wear a mask. The only time I take mine down in shops is to speak to my girlfriend as she needs to lip read in certain situations and can’t always understand the workers.

Just sick of it all :lol:
Yeah totally sympathise with that POV. It’s actually started getting to me, from clueless neighbours to parents ignoring the school rules to wear masks when dropping/picking up kids, to Tesco delivery drivers coming practically into your house to drop shopping with no mask. I could go on. A chunk of Society has become very selfish and ignorant. I suppose it doesn’t help when you have the types of world leaders that we do, everyone feels like they can do what they want. I feel like some countries are a powder keg right now just waiting on a spark
 
I think this is an understated point with regards to testing. My other half had her swab test for work on Monday (all clear) but she said that she reckons a majority of the home tests aren't being done properly due to peoples fear of sticking items up their nose & down their throat.

A friend of mine said that exact same thing. Her whole office had to do a home test because one of the coworkers tested positive. None of them came back positive but she couldn't bring herself to put it far up her nose. That issue surely must have been considered in the design and the whole process allows for a number of missed positives.

I also have two friends in the UK who have had positive results for tests they never even took due to the queue at the testing centre being too long.

I hope all these false results are evened out in the wash and are not skewing the large scale numbers.


One of our neighbours got a large tattoo done. She was showing the pictures on her FB. No mask in sight, either for her or the person doing the tattoo. It probably took 4-5 hours for this tattoo. Indoors.

So if this is how the tattooist is doing his clients, good luck!

Tbh i would have hoped a tattooist would be wearing a mask at the best of times, considering they're breathing into an open wound. Never mind Covid.
 
I think this is an understated point with regards to testing. My other half had her swab test for work on Monday (all clear) but she said that she reckons a majority of the home tests aren't being done properly due to peoples fear of sticking items up their nose & down their throat.
Yep, try swabbing a 4 year olds clacker and up the nose for 10-15 seconds and telling me that it is an accurate test. I'm sure there has been many false results from home testing and a lot of people are quite happy to have negatives so they can go about their business.
 
We haven't had a case of community transmission for 6 days here in NSW and suddenly almost nobody is wearing a mask. I sometimes think that we are too stupid as a species to survive.
 
One of our neighbours got a large tattoo done. She was showing the pictures on her FB. No mask in sight, either for her or the person doing the tattoo. It probably took 4-5 hours for this tattoo. Indoors.

So if this is how the tattooist is doing his clients, good luck!

The frustrating thing about this is the fact it has such a grave effect on the entire community. If these people were jumping into a volcano because of their ignorance I think I’d shrug and consider it Darwinism. It’s more like they’re jumping off a skyscraper and falling towards a busy street.
 
That makes no sense. You are importing a case you wouldn't have otherwise had and that person will infect 3-6 others who will in turn infect 3-6 others. Make them quarantine and you won't import that case into the country. It is that simple.
Not if you can pick it up in Manchester and ‘import’ it to Birmingham just as easily.
 
Not if you can pick it up in Manchester and ‘import’ it to Birmingham just as easily.

What are you talking about?

You were originally saying that quarantining people from overseas was pointless. So what two places within the UK with no barrier between them has to do with what you were trying to say is entirely unclear. If there were a hard border between Manchester and Birmingham my point would still hold.

If you restrict infections arriving from outside a hard border you have fewer infections within the border than you would if you allowed the infection in. How could it possibly be otherwise?
 
One of our neighbours got a large tattoo done. She was showing the pictures on her FB. No mask in sight, either for her or the person doing the tattoo. It probably took 4-5 hours for this tattoo. Indoors.

So if this is how the tattooist is doing his clients, good luck!
Seems like the exact same situation whenever I pass my local tattoo shop. Never anyone in there wearing a mask, and people use it as a social club by the looks of it. I've no idea who you're supposed to whistleblow to in these situations though. It's the same in most of the local barbers and hairdressers, they are just not taking it seriously.

If there was an obvious financial reason why they are ignoring the mitigation, I could see their point of view to some degree, as these businesses are going to have been struggling this year. But for the sake of a few quid spent on masks, they are willing to put the community at risk.
 


Interesting summary of a cluster. Really brings home how incredibly reckless it is to not make any changes to your behaviour during a pandemic. Stuff like this makes me less sympathetic to the younger people who are having to rein in their social life.

If they had left it a few days between seeing these various groups of friends (or postponed socialising for a week after the weekend away) things could have turned out very differently, while still maintaining a healthy social life.
 
What are you talking about?

You were originally saying that quarantining people from overseas was pointless. So what two places within the UK with no barrier between them has to do with what you were trying to say is entirely unclear. If there were a hard border between Manchester and Birmingham my point would still hold.

If you restrict infections arriving from outside a hard border you have fewer infections within the border than you would if you allowed the infection in. How could it possibly be otherwise?
Maybe if you actually read it instead of bundling in with how right you always are you would understand. Quarantine from countries with a high prevalence of the virus makes sense if your own community transmission is low. If it’s exactly the same then you’re as likely to get it in the UK as you are in another country. That’s what I’ve said from the start if you would get off your high horse for one minute you may be able to see somebody else’s point.

It is otherwise because you’re not talking about something that has a finite resource. If there are 1000 infections in Manchester and 1000 infections in Madrid. Getting it in Manchester and bringing it to Birmingham is no different then getting it in Madrid and bringing it to Birmingham. I can go to Manchester without quarantining. My whole point is there’s no barrier here so community transmission is already rampant. Having a hard border and quarantining from places with similar rates will have next to no effect.

Now if it was 1000 cases in Manchester and 2000 in Madrid I would agree with what you’re saying. Which is what I said from the very start.
 


Interesting summary of a cluster. Really brings home how incredibly reckless it is to not make any changes to your behaviour during a pandemic. Stuff like this makes me less sympathetic to the younger people who are having to rein in their social life.

If they had left it a few days between seeing these various groups of friends (or postponed socialising for a week after the weekend away) things could have turned out very differently, while still maintaining a healthy social life.

This is the case in the link I posted to you last night. They even passed it on to every member on the table beside them in the restaurant and the restaurant staff. Madness
 
Maybe if you actually read it instead of bundling in with how right you always are you would understand. Quarantine from countries with a high prevalence of the virus makes sense if your own community transmission is low. If it’s exactly the same then you’re as likely to get it in the UK as you are in another country. That’s what I’ve said from the start if you would get off your high horse for one minute you may be able to see somebody else’s point.

It is otherwise because you’re not talking about something that has a finite resource. If there are 1000 infections in Manchester and 1000 infections in Madrid. Getting it in Manchester and bringing it to Birmingham is no different then getting it in Madrid and bringing it to Birmingham. I can go to Manchester without quarantining. My whole point is there’s no barrier here so community transmission is already rampant. Having a hard border and quarantining from places with similar rates will have next to no effect.

Now if it was 1000 cases in Manchester and 2000 in Madrid I would agree with what you’re saying. Which is what I said from the very start.
Sorry I don’t agree with you. There’s many a case of people coming back from jollies, straight out to pubs etc and caused a super spreader event. Even from so called ‘safe’ areas. People are less likely to take care on their jollies.

we should never forget that it came into the country from people going on holidays in the first place. Uk is an island, they should have closed the borders at that point in my opinion.
 
Maybe if you actually read it instead of bundling in with how right you always are you would understand. Quarantine from countries with a high prevalence of the virus makes sense if your own community transmission is low. If it’s exactly the same then you’re as likely to get it in the UK as you are in another country. That’s what I’ve said from the start if you would get off your high horse for one minute you may be able to see somebody else’s point.

It is otherwise because you’re not talking about something that has a finite resource. If there are 1000 infections in Manchester and 1000 infections in Madrid. Getting it in Manchester and bringing it to Birmingham is no different then getting it in Madrid and bringing it to Birmingham. I can go to Manchester without quarantining. My whole point is there’s no barrier here so community transmission is already rampant. Having a hard border and quarantining from places with similar rates will have next to no effect.

Now if it was 1000 cases in Manchester and 2000 in Madrid I would agree with what you’re saying. Which is what I said from the very start.

Your point would had validity and logic if we had an effective test and tracing system. As we don't, then quarantining is the only effective way (if we had complete compliance) to mitigate further spread. It's a wrong comparison to say that because the net countries have the same amount of infection then it's no different and therefore no quarantine should be needed. Just because it's here already, means it doesn't make sense to compound the infection rate by adding more to it.

For example, if we take Dorset as a LA with a low case count (8.2 per 100k of people), and someone comes back from Spain without quarantining. Has the virus, and then spreads. Dorset then have to try to contain an outbreak. Could be mitigated with an effective quarantine, or test and trace (with the theory of being able to trace contacts and then tell them to isolate), and has a chance of keeping the case rate low.

The quarantine logic is as more down to controlling local outbreaks, which if uncontrolled, lead into a snowball effect into other areas. This was the issue that was in Bolton and has caused a ripple effect into other areas of the North West (Liverpool, Halton, St Helens specifically).
 
Sorry I don’t agree with you. There’s many a case of people coming back from jollies, straight out to pubs etc and caused a super spreader event. Even from so called ‘safe’ areas. People are less likely to take care on their jollies.

we should never forget that it came into the country from people going on holidays in the first place. Uk is an island, they should have closed the borders at that point in my opinion.
I’m sure there is. There will be plenty of people just going to different places in the UK and spreading it too. Obviously it came from overseas initially which is why I believe we missed the boat on quarantining being overly effective.
 
Last edited:
Your point would had validity and logic if we had an effective test and tracing system. As we don't, then quarantining is the only effective way (if we had complete compliance) to mitigate further spread. It's a wrong comparison to say that because the net countries have the same amount of infection then it's no different and therefore no quarantine should be needed. Just because it's here already, means it doesn't make sense to compound the infection rate by adding more to it.

For example, if we take Dorset as a LA with a low case count (8.2 per 100k of people), and someone comes back from Spain without quarantining. Has the virus, and then spreads. Dorset then have to try to contain an outbreak. Could be mitigated with an effective quarantine, or test and trace (with the theory of being able to trace contacts and then tell them to isolate), and has a chance of keeping the case rate low.

The quarantine logic is as more down to controlling local outbreaks, which if uncontrolled, lead into a snowball effect into other areas. This was the issue that was in Bolton and has caused a ripple effect into other areas of the North West (Liverpool, Halton, St Helens specifically).
My point is that adding to it can be done just as easily by moving within the UK. Now an argument can be made to say people are less likely to move between cities in the UK than go abroad and come home. Which would be a fair point. But for it to be effective then you would need the same quarantining for leaving those hard hit areas in the UK.

Test and trace and compliance with it is our only hope really. And we’ve been a shambles at it. Quarantining people coming from Spain now is akin to trying the fix the Titanic with a plaster.
 


Interesting summary of a cluster. Really brings home how incredibly reckless it is to not make any changes to your behaviour during a pandemic. Stuff like this makes me less sympathetic to the younger people who are having to rein in their social life.

If they had left it a few days between seeing these various groups of friends (or postponed socialising for a week after the weekend away) things could have turned out very differently, while still maintaining a healthy social life.

Wow, when you hear real life examples it's crazy how quick and easy it spreads.

You've got to be thinking they were feeling completely fine so this isn't from sneezing, coughing etc. just from regular contact or breathing.
 
On the travel/quarantine thing, we also need to take into account that the act of travel carries its own risks, no matter where you travel to. Spending time in airports/on aeroplanes mingling with people from all over the world, including potentially people from countries with the very highest incidence on the planet. That’s very different to visiting different town in Britain with a similar incidence of covid.

Having said that, freedom of movement within the EU is so important that’s it not realistic/practical to go to the same extreme lengths as the likes of Aus/NZ. So once again this comes down to personal responsibility. Don’t travel unless you really need to and self-isolate when you return. Not a huge ask, right?
 
On the travel/quarantine thing, we also need to take into account that the act of travel carries its own risks, no matter where you travel to. Spending time in airports/on aeroplanes mingling with people from all over the world, including potentially people from countries with the very highest incidence on the planet. That’s very different to visiting different town in Britain with a similar incidence of covid.

Having said that, freedom of movement within the EU is so important that’s it not realistic/practical to go to the same extreme lengths as the likes of Aus/NZ. So once again this comes down to personal responsibility. Don’t travel unless you really need to and self-isolate when you return. Not a huge ask, right?
I don’t particularly disagree. I would have no interest in travelling currently for those reasons. But I don’t believe it’s currently the reason it’s gone rampant and I don’t think quarantining will be any more effective than asking anyone to isolate for two weeks would be.
 
On the travel/quarantine thing, we also need to take into account that the act of travel carries its own risks, no matter where you travel to. Spending time in airports/on aeroplanes mingling with people from all over the world, including potentially people from countries with the very highest incidence on the planet. That’s very different to visiting different town in Britain with a similar incidence of covid.

Having said that, freedom of movement within the EU is so important that’s it not realistic/practical to go to the same extreme lengths as the likes of Aus/NZ. So once again this comes down to personal responsibility. Don’t travel unless you really need to and self-isolate when you return. Not a huge ask, right?
I’d love to see the figures how many people have travelled over the last few months for non-essential travel. It might not seem like a huge ask but many people just can’t help themselves.
 
I don’t particularly disagree. I would have no interest in travelling currently for those reasons. But I don’t believe it’s currently the reason it’s gone rampant and I don’t think quarantining will be any more effective than asking anyone to isolate for two weeks would be.
I don’t disagree that it’s the only reason but part of a bigger picture. However look at that example from Ireland posted above by pogue, 1 couple went away for a few days and came back and infected 30 people. It spreads so easily just by being in someone’s company.
 
My point is that adding to it can be done just as easily by moving within the UK. Now an argument can be made to say people are less likely to move between cities in the UK than go abroad and come home. Which would be a fair point. But for it to be effective then you would need the same quarantining for leaving those hard hit areas in the UK.

I can't see any logic to not having a quarantine because it's easier to move about within the UK. It's like saying that by pouring petrol onto a house fire will yield the same outcome of a house being on fire, however by not pouring petrol onto the situation gives a better chance of trying to put the fire out. It just makes sense by not adding more fuel to the fire by quarantining people returning from foreign travel.

Air travel has been identified as a particular hotspot for transmission, and Cardiff had a great example last month. Movement in the UK is not really done through an air pressurised cabin, so it's comparing apples with oranges.

Test and trace and compliance with it is our only hope really. And we’ve been a shambles at it. Quarantining people coming from Spain now is akin to trying the fix the Titanic with a plaster.

Agree that it's a shambles. We should be aware that to combat this virus prior to any vaccine, it'll need a multiple combinations of smaller actions to get it under control, quarantining being one of them.