Zlatan Ibrahimovic

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Ekeke said:
Unfortunately not. Else Berbatov would be at Spurs...

Zlatan is clearly a fantastic player, one of the top strikers in the world (but currently nowhere close to being the absolute top) but his non-domestic scoring record is beyond terrible. Thats it really.

And as his scoring record in the champions league is so dire, it would obviously be a step down for Barcelona to swap Eto'o for him. I'm sure he can start scoring goals in the final 16, just not many and its getting quite late in the day for him to prove that he can actually do it.
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I guess Berbatov is a better player than Ibra, i mean he scored in the last 16 right? For Leverkusen no less i think...

His record in europe is poor, he was better whilst at ajax in europe, maybe telling you something about italian teams recently in europe... but then it's zlatans fault. He managed 9 in 25 for ajax and so far in italy it as been 3 in 19 for Juve and 6 in 22 for Inter. Of course his game is about creativity more than goals but it is a poor record in europe. I'm not denying that.

But all it takes is one campaign where he scores a few goals in the latter stages of the CL and his team progresses far for the argument to evaporate. That's why it's such a flawed argument in my opinion.

Before the CL final it was Messi, cant score agaisnt english and cant do it in the big games. He did both in one game and now he's the best and will undoubtably win the ballon d'or....

Ibra can do the same.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
His record in europe is poor

But all it takes is one campaign where he scores a few goals in the latter stages of the CL and his team progresses far for the argument to evaporate

Before the CL final it was Messi, cant score agaisnt english and cant do it in the big games
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1) His record against playing against better players is poor, i.e. he can't hack it against the best. But yet he's supposedly better than a player who can and does!

2) Well no actually. It would take several. If he has one good season deep into the Champions League in his entire career, that evaporates the arguement?! I don't think so. The best do it consistantly, that's why they're the best, get it?

3) The difference is, folk were talking bollocks about Messi. The accusations of Zlatan are bang on
 
Ekeke said:
Tevez has done the exact same thing except for at West Ham where Ibrahimovic obviously wouldnt have won the league either.

Its a nice record to have but it obviously helps when you only ever join the best team in each league.
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the best teams sign the best players....

Brad said:
1) His record against playing against better players is poor, i.e. he can't hack it against the best. But yet he's supposedly better than a player who can and does!

2) Well no actually. It would take several. If he has one good season deep into the Champions League in his entire career, that evaporates the arguement?! I don't think so. The best do it consistantly, that's why they're the best, get it?

3) The difference is, folk were talking bollocks about Messi. The accusations of Zlatan are bang on
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So Rooney does it agaisnt the best, that's Roma, Milan and Porto...

all teams Ibra has scored against (maybe not porto, although i think they were in his group when he was good and managed 5 in 5 until the semi against liverpool, 5 in 7, more than rooney ever managed in a single european season).

Who knows what the future holds, i just think he'll do it. Maybe i'll be wrong and i'll happily put my hand up and say so, i doubt the same can be said for his detractors, so adament are you that he's not up to it and not even half the player Rooney is.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
I guess Berbatov is a better player than Ibra, i mean he scored in the last 16 right? For Leverkusen no less i think...

His record in europe is poor, he was better whilst at ajax in europe, maybe telling you something about italian teams recently in europe... but then it's zlatans fault. He managed 9 in 25 for ajax and so far in italy it as been 3 in 19 for Juve and 6 in 22 for Inter. Of course his game is about creativity more than goals but it is a poor record in europe. I'm not denying that.

But all it takes is one campaign where he scores a few goals in the latter stages of the CL and his team progresses far for the argument to evaporate. That's why it's such a flawed argument in my opinion.

Before the CL final it was Messi, cant score agaisnt english and cant do it in the big games. He did both in one game and now he's the best and will undoubtably win the ballon d'or....

Ibra can do the same.
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You say "all it takes" but he's been trying to do it for 7 seasons and hasnt managed it, despite being a great player in your opinion. If its so easy for him to do it, he should have done it by now shouldnt he?

Some players obviously find it easier than others. Zlatan seemingly finds it impossible. But if you have designs on winning the champions league you need a striker who has some kind of record scoring in the last 16. Until he does score a few and makes his record somewhat respectable, any team thinking about bringing him in is taking a little bit of a chance. Because there's a decent chance his record will continue as it has done for the 7 seasons previously.
 
Frank, 'the best players have to perform against the best teams to show they are(one of) the best'.

Do you disagree with that, or do you think Ibrahimovic has already done that?
 
Ekeke said:
You say "all it takes" but he's been trying to do it for 7 seasons and hasnt managed it, despite being a great player in your opinion. If its so easy for him to do it, he should have done it by now shouldnt he?

Some players obviously find it easier than others. Zlatan seemingly finds it impossible. But if you have designs on winning the champions league you need a striker who has some kind of record scoring in the last 16. Until he does score a few and makes his record somewhat respectable, any team thinking about bringing him in is taking a little bit of a chance. Because there's a decent chance his record will continue as it has done for the 7 seasons previously.
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7 seasons? Ajax are going to struggle really...

I cant remember every game he played in europe in his career but i think remember the 2nd year they got put out by Liverpool who went on and won it. Ibra was poor, he was too bulky at the time and had lost his edge.

then the move to inter and that Valencia tie, a war not a football match, sendings off and fighting resulting in alot of bans. Inter were hard done by but that was that.

3rd, liverpool again, each game they had 10 men due to awful refereeing decisions. and Ibra did miss a couple of chances, yet he set up the most clear cut chances for his team which Cruz failed to convert.

4th, United, the best side in europe and they outclassed Inter at the san siro with a great performance. Ibra was poor. 2nd leg he was good, best in his team and a real threat, created the best chances for his team and yet hit the bar. Performed well but without that goal it is another bottlejob by Zlatan.

Brwned said:
Frank, 'the best players have to perform against the best teams to show they are(one of) the best'.

Do you disagree with that, or do you think Ibrahimovic has already done that?
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No i do agree, he has done it against every great italian side. He was also excellent against Madrid despite not scoring and created chances and set up goals.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
7 seasons? Ajax are going to struggle really...
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You say that, but Kezman was managing it whilst the two players were in the netherlands.

In fact I remember speaking to some dutch football fans and they considered Kezman the better striker at the time precisely because of this point. That Kezman was scoring in europe and Ibrahimovic never was. Turns out 7 seasons later he still has the same problem - though obviously everyone considers him a better player than Kezman :lol: the point is that Ibrahimovic has always had this problem scoring in europe and is seemingly something he's not going to be able to shake off. Its getting late in the day for him to address it.

I cant remember every game he played in europe in his career but i think remember the 2nd year they got put out by Liverpool who went on and won it. Ibra was poor, he was too bulky at the time and had lost his edge.

then the move to inter and that Valencia tie, a war not a football match, sendings off and fighting resulting in alot of bans. Inter were hard done by but that was that.

3rd, liverpool again, each game they had 10 men due to awful refereeing decisions. and Ibra did miss a couple of chances, yet he set up the most clear cut chances for his team which Cruz failed to convert.

4th, United, the best side in europe and they outclassed Inter at the san siro with a great performance. Ibra was poor. 2nd leg he was good, best in his team and a real threat, created the best chances for his team and yet hit the bar. Performed well but without that goal it is another bottlejob by Zlatan.



No i do agree, he has done it against every great italian side. He was also excellent against Madrid despite not scoring and created chances and set up goals.
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More excuses?
 
Have you got any idea what you are talking about? He was never prolific in the dutch league never mind against top teams in europe whilst playing for ajax.

he scored 9 in 25 games for Ajax in europe. Not bad really and it was his performances in europe that led Juve to purchase him... Fabio Capello no less.

Kezman managed 13 in 40 whilst in Holland. Which won him a move to the richest club in the world at the time whilst Ibra went to Juve, where are they now and what's your point?

His goal scoring domestically is better in Italy than it ever was in holland despite having one very poor season where he only managed 7 goals in 35 league games for Juve.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
Have you got any idea what you are talking about? He was never prolific in the dutch league never mind against top teams in europe whilst playing for ajax.

he scored 9 in 25 games for Ajax in europe. Not bad really and it was his performances in europe that led Juve to purchase him... Fabio Capello no less.

His goal scoring domestically is better in Italy than it ever was in holland despite having one very poor season where he only managed 7 goals in 35 league games for Juve.
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0 in the last 16.

Kezman scored 4 in the last 16 in 03/04 alone.

I'm not denying he's vastly improved his return domestically. I never even mentioned it. But in europe Zlatan doesnt score past the group stages. Never has - whilst much lesser players often have.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
Not just Capello, any manger with genuine european pedigree. But no, i'll take the word of a few redcafe members over some of the most respected names in world football....
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Like who? Who has said he isnt a top striker?

I can only speak for myself and a few days ago I agreed with you that he's one of the top 5 strikers in the world. Thats surely a top striker and I would rate him even higher than that if he could actually score in the final 16 of the champions league.
 
Ekeke said:
0 in the last 16.

Kezman scored 4 in the last 16 in 03/04 alone.

I'm not denying he's vastly improved his return domestically. I never even mentioned it. But in europe Zlatan doesnt score past the group stages. Never has - whilst much lesser players often have.
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Yup that's why it's a stupid way to rate players.

It's the same old bull shit designed to belittle a players ability and achievments and i'll keep repeating that i dont buy it because i dont.

A few goals in the CL last 16 are not transforming Zlatan into a world class player and they arent turning joe average Kezman into a great player either. Zlatan is world class and proves it with consistant brilliance in one of the top leagues as the stand out player in his team who without him wouldnt have won the league on any occasion.

Kezman? went to a tougher league than the dutch and flopped...

Yet he has the elusive last 16 goals along with a million other substandard players so that somehow makes him better than Ibrahimovic or anyone else who hasnt managed a few goals in the last 16...

i'll never be convinced that this last 16 argument is a good one to judge a player. You judge a player over a season, not one game in a knockout tournament. you take it all into account and this season Zlatan has been one of the best strikers in the world.

It was clear to anyone after the first leg that United were a far stronger outfit than Inter. Ibra gave a good account of himself, probably should have scored but he did very well for a player so isolated, i mean if any of Uniteds players could have done what he did for Inter on his own against the best back 4 in world football whilst playing in the CL final then you might have had a chance.

Outside of Inter getting beaten by the european champions he was a beast domestically, banging in all manor of goals whilst also being the most creative player in his team, starting moves and finishing them.
 
Yes. So basically he was the best player in Serie A - again. And didnt score in the final stages of the champions league, again - despite having 2 very good chances. Do we see a pattern?

Again I'll point out nobody is rating players according to how many goals they've scored in the champions league. But when a player has no goals to show for 7 seasons of getting into the knockout stages of the champions league, thats a beyond terrible record and one no "great" player should ever have, plain and simple.

Its not about the teams he comes up against, its about the situation, the spectacle, the stage - two important matches in which his team has to score more goals than the opponent or they go out of the tournament. And Ibrahimovic has never been the man to grab one of those goals. That is a huge drawback to the player and something which has stopped him being one of the top 2 or 3 strikers in the world, which he certainly has the talent to be. But mentally, when it comes to european matches, he's not a champion.
 
Ekeke said:
Yes. So basically he was the best player in Serie A - again. And didnt score in the final stages of the champions league, again - despite having 2 very good chances. Do we see a pattern?

Again I'll point out nobody is rating players according to how many goals they've scored in the champions league. But when a player has no goals to show for 7 seasons of getting into the knockout stages of the champions league, thats a beyond terrible record and one no "great" player should ever have, plain and simple.

Its not about the teams he comes up against, its about the situation, the spectacle, the stage - two important matches in which his team has to score more goals than the opponent or they go out of the tournament. And Ibrahimovic has never been the man to grab one of those goals. That is a huge drawback to the player and something which has stopped him being one of the top 2 or 3 strikers in the world, which he certainly has the talent to be. But mentally, when it comes to european matches, he's not a champion.
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So scoring in the most important domestic games doesnt count? coming off the bench at half time after 3/4months injured to score 2 excellent goals which seal you the title isn't grabbing important goals.

Yes he had two chances against united, he dragged one wide and hit the bar with a header which he should have scored, he was unlucky, he even headed it down textbook...

But sure, ignore the chances he created for team mates, clearer cut chances than the onces he couldnt take no less. Just like against Liverpool even with 10 men and a hole in his knee...
 
We are just talking scoring here matey. There's nothing else wrong with Zlatan's game which is why we arent talking about the other areas. The only area he needs to improve is getting on the scoresheet in european competition when it matters. Its a huge problem to have, but it is his only problem.
 
Who says it's his problem? It's a weird stat, but it's probably more down to who he plays for than his own ability.

If Ibrahimovic played for United, say, do you think he'd have drawn a blank in the CL knockout stages? No chance.
 
sincher said:
Who says it's his problem? It's a weird stat, but it's probably more down to who he plays for than his own ability.

If Ibrahimovic played for United, say, do you think he'd have drawn a blank in the CL knockout stages? No chance.
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So he's a player who needs to play for the best team in the tournament to score?

David Bellion could probably do the same.

Vastly inferior players to Zlatan Ibrahimovic have played for vastly inferior sides to Inter Milan and managed to score goals in the last 16 of the champions league. Its a regular thing. Why hasnt Zlatan managed a single goal in 7 seasons? Because he's an enigma who should be able to do it, but never has managed to do it and if he had done it, his side would have come a lot closer to winning the tournament.
 
Don't you see the nonsense in arguing this guys better than one of the very best in the world, when to be the best, you need to be at the top consistently. Not only has Zlatan not been at the top in Europe, where you face the best teams and there aren't any Atalanta's to bag a couple against to top up your stats, he's never scored in the knockout rounds. Ever, at the age of 27. And he's supposed to be one of the best in the world, better than Rooney, who does it every season? Jog on
 
Or it's just a statistical anomaly, associated with the fact that he's played for negative teams.

For example, his performance in the second leg against us was good, I thought, but Inter lacked creativity so badly that he had nothing to feed on.

It's a pretty sad stat for him and doesn't reflect that well, but there are other sad stats about great players, e.g. Ronaldo went on a run of not scoring in the CL, but noone with a brain suddenly thought he was a bad player.
 
sincher said:
Or it's just a statistical anomaly, associated with the fact that he's played for negative teams.

For example, his performance in the second leg against us was good, I thought, but Inter lacked creativity so badly that he had nothing to feed on.

It's a pretty sad stat for him and doesn't reflect that well, but there are other sad stats about great players, e.g. Ronaldo went on a run of not scoring in the CL, but noone with a brain suddenly thought he was a bad player.
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A statistical anomaly?!

He's never scored at that stage! He's had enough attempts!

At some point, it's just called not having it when it matters

Ronaldo went on 'a run'. That's a whole world away from never ever having done something
 
The funny thing about this discussion is that many years ago I had the same argument with Italian fans regarding a certain French man called Eric Cantona. Eric never managed to truly crack the Italian sides and they used to believe that he was only good for the EPL and that he tends to vanish in the bigger games.

Now I dont want to compare Ibra with Eric, that would be ridiculous. Stating that both Manchester United (of that time) and today's Inter suffered from the same problem ie they rely heavily on 1 - 2 players to make a difference. That means that once you mark those players out of the game, that team becomes predictable.

I still remember a couple of years back Lippi stating that playing against Manchester United was easy. You just had to mark Giggs (who was still young) and Eric Cantona and then United would fail to do anything against you. Inter has the same problem. You mark Ibra and Balotelli and they will break into pieces.

In my opinion its unfair to judge Ibra basing on yourself on his international (with Sweden) and club stats (Inter). If he moves to a club like Barcelona he would be much more effective.
 
sincher said:
Or it's just a statistical anomaly, associated with the fact that he's played for negative teams.

For example, his performance in the second leg against us was good, I thought, but Inter lacked creativity so badly that he had nothing to feed on.

It's a pretty sad stat for him and doesn't reflect that well, but there are other sad stats about great players, e.g. Ronaldo went on a run of not scoring in the CL, but noone with a brain suddenly thought he was a bad player.
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Nothing to feed on except the 2 good chances he had which he missed. I thought he had a decent game but this tells the story of him in the champions league knockout stages. When it came to scoring the goals to fire Inter through, he missed his chances.

Ronaldo actually didnt score in the champions league at all until the season before last. But A) He was and is a young player and B) He's a winger.

The other run of not scoring in the champions league was this season where it was what, 5 or 6 games?

Zlatan hasnt scored in 16 over 7 seasons. Its not quite the same thing and its a player who should be at his peak right now.
 
devilish said:
The funny thing about this discussion is that many years ago I had the same argument with Italian fans regarding a certain French man called Eric Cantona. Eric never managed to truly crack the Italian sides and they used to believe that he was only good for the EPL and that he tends to vanish in the bigger games.

Now I dont want to compare Ibra with Eric, that would be ridiculous. Stating that both Manchester United (of that time) and today's Inter suffered from the same problem ie they rely heavily on 1 - 2 players to make a difference. That means that once you mark those players out of the game, that team becomes predictable.

I still remember a couple of years back Lippi stating that playing against Manchester United was easy. You just had to mark Giggs (who was still very young) and Eric Cantona and then United would fail to do anything against you. Inter has the same problem. You mark Ibra and Balotelli and they will break into pieces.
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Likewise, as brilliant a player as Eric was for us, it's hard to argue that he was one of the world's greatest when he didn't make the difference in Europe often enough(though there were other reasons like the foreigner rule etc).

But not once in the time I've been watching him has Ibrahimovic took a big European game by the scruff of the neck, or led by example as you expect from one of the best players in the world. His performance against us was decent without ever being particularly threatening. You need more from the very best, which is why he needs to turn it on in the latter stages to be thought of that way.
 
brophs said:
Likewise, as brilliant a player as Eric was for us, it's hard to argue that he was one of the world's greatest when he didn't make the difference in Europe often enough(though there were other reasons like the foreigner rule etc).

But not once in the time I've been watching him has Ibrahimovic took a big European game by the scruff of the neck, or led by example as you expect from one of the best players in the world. His performance against us was decent without ever being particularly threatening. You need more from the very best, which is why he needs to turn it on in the latter stages to be thought of that way.
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With all due respect but Ibra played much better against us then Cantona did against Juventus. Mind you Im not critising Cantona. I mean its pretty tough to play in a role were you are the main (and sometimes only) supply of goals and creativity. At least Eric had Giggs, Keane and Ince at his side.
 
And Zlatan only had Cambiasso - who put in as good a central midfield performance against us as anyone did this season except maybe Xavi and Iniesta, Maicon who we heard about being the best right back in the world for this whole entire season, Julio Cesar who put in the best goalkeeping performance against us this season.

Ibrahimovic isnt playing for a team of minnows.
 
Ekeke said:
And Zlatan only had Cambiasso - who put in as good a central midfield performance against us as anyone did this season except maybe Xavi and Iniesta, Maicon who we heard about being the best right back in the world for this whole entire season, Julio Cesar who put in the best goalkeeping performance against us this season.

Ibrahimovic isnt playing for a team of minnows.
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You are right, Inter is not a shitty side. On the other hand if you notice Inter's team you would see that they have a team which relies heavily on Ibra to create the chance and score the goals. I mean, while we have players like Rooney, Ronaldo, Scholes, Berbatov, Tevez and Giggs they have a promising but hot heading striker/winger (Balotelli), Stankovic and Ibra with a number of defensive midfielders at their backs. You don't need to be a scientist to know whom to mark.
 
devilish said:
You are right, Inter is not a shitty side. On the other hand if you notice Inter's team you would see that they have a team which relies heavily on Ibra to create the chance and score the goals. I mean, while we have players like Rooney, Ronaldo, Scholes, Berbatov, Tevez and Giggs they have a promising but hot heading striker/winger (Balotelli), Stankovic and Ibra with a number of defensive midfielders at their backs. You don't need to be a scientist to know whom to mark.
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Absolutely. But against us he also had Adriano playing - meaning he had the freedom to move around and not have to lead the line. So he had the oppertunity to slip his marker with some intelligent movement that wasnt restricted by the way Inter were playing. Thats why he found himself out in the channels now and again. Unfortunately for him when he did find himself in those kinds of positions, the likes of John O'Shea were equal to him.
 
Ekeke said:
Absolutely. But against us he also had Adriano playing - meaning he had the freedom to move around and not have to lead the line. So he had the oppertunity to slip his marker with some intelligent movement that wasnt restricted by the way Inter were playing. Thats why he found himself out in the channels now and again. Unfortunately for him when he did find himself in those kinds of positions, the likes of John O'Shea were equal to him.
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Yeah having a fat alcoholic fool at your side does help a lot. Let me remind you that the only attacking minded player Inter had in that game (apart from Ibra and Adriano) was Stankovic.
 
devilish said:
Yeah having a fat alcoholic fool at your side does help a lot. Let me remind you that the only attacking minded player Inter had in that game (apart from Ibra and Adriano) was Stankovic.
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So there were 3 attacking players for Inter and we had Park, Ronaldo and Berbatov.

Hardly the most amazing strikeforce. Berbatov hasnt scored in the champions league since October 2008 and Park's goal against Arsenal in the semis after the Inter matches was his first goal in the last 16 since 2005 for PSV.

The great equaliser of course was Ronaldo. Because Ronaldo is much better than Ibrahimovic.
 
Brad said:
:lol: Yes, it's ridiculous

It's Totti all over again

Rooney is the younger player, at the better club, in the better league, performing better in the business end of major competition
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Yeah Totti was pish on the big occasion. :confused:
 
Ekeke said:
So there were 3 attacking players for Inter and we had Park, Ronaldo and Berbatov.

Hardly the most amazing strikeforce. Berbatov hasnt scored in the champions league since October 2008 and Park's goal against Arsenal in the semis after the Inter matches was his first goal in the last 16 since 2005 for PSV.

The great equaliser of course was Ronaldo. Because Ronaldo is much better than Ibrahimovic.
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Ronaldo is better then Ibra. There is no doubt about that.

Stating that

Berbatov > Stankovic
Phelan > Adriano

+ we also had players like Giggs and Park in the team (while Rooney was introduced in the second half). The game ended 0 - 0.

At OT we had Scholes, Giggs, Ronaldo, Rooney and Berbatov while Inter had Ibra, Balotelli and Stankovic. The difference between the creativity spark of the two teams is evident.
 
Ekeke said:
So there were 3 attacking players for Inter and we had Park, Ronaldo and Berbatov.

Hardly the most amazing strikeforce. Berbatov hasnt scored in the champions league since October 2008 and Park's goal against Arsenal in the semis after the Inter matches was his first goal in the last 16 since 2005 for PSV.

The great equaliser of course was Ronaldo. Because Ronaldo is much better than Ibrahimovic.
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Who cares what they're like goalscoring-wise, Devilish is talking about the amount of creativity in the team.

And the amount of creativity in our team literally was twice as good as theirs.
 
Brwned said:
Who cares what they're like goalscoring-wise, Devilish is talking about the amount of creativity in the team.

And the amount of creativity in our team literally was twice as good as theirs.
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We had several chances we missed during the two games, im not sure any one player missed more than 2 good chances though. I dont recall.

Ibrahimovic missed 2 good chances. So maybe the creativity was less important than the fact he wasnt clinical on the occasion(s). He played well in the second game in spite of this but once again he didnt score and on the day, he really should have.
 
Brwned said:
Who cares what they're like goalscoring-wise, Devilish is talking about the amount of creativity in the team.

And the amount of creativity in our team literally was twice as good as theirs.
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Exactly
 
Ekeke said:
We had several chances we missed during the two games, im not sure any one player missed more than 2 good chances though. I dont recall.

Ibrahimovic missed 2 good chances. So maybe the creativity was less important than the fact he wasnt clinical on the occasion(s). He played well in the second game in spite of this but once again he didnt score and on the day, he really should have.
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One of the most clinical strikers ever was Pippo Inzaghi. And yet there were games were he missed chances that even Anderson would have scored (ok maybe Im exxagerating now).

Ibra is the only creative beacon Inter has (at least at world class level). They expect him to create chances and to score them. Our forwards don't have that problem. I mean it would be impossible to double mark every single classy attacking minded player we have (Ronaldo, Rooney, Berbatov, Tevez etc)
 
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