Excellent post.
Zlatan Ibrahimovic
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For the sake of argument I accept that Barca had a better team last year.
In terms of the respective performance for their teams, one can say that Eto'o did work for his team but on the night Chelsea were very organized and kept the supply to a minimum. And to continue your argument that Ibrahamovich is more creative and can link play better than the fact that Eto'o didn't play that well against Chelsea can actually be underplayed since he is not expected to do that. If he didn't have the supply but still worked hard for his team, his performance can still be rated as average and not poor as is the case for Ibrahamovich last night.
And Eto'o need not be cleverer but he is more effective with his movement which allows the team overall to be creative.
The thing is Eto'o has done well on the big stage (Europe) but Ibrahamovich hasn't really done that. And he has been priced much higher than Eto'o too, so it is obvious that he would come under more criticism and people would be more inclined to point and laugh.
Will be at City in the Summer
While I agree with the assessment that he didn't have the best of games against Inter but that part in bold is pure rubbish!
Is it? I'm happy to accept that. It's a small sample of games that I've watched him in, a dozen or so. But he's looked skillful but toothless in every single one.
I must admit I've changed my mind about him: He's not good enough to be considered among the best strikers in the game.
It's one thing to not score. But a striker of his stature and ability should at least be able to hold up the ball moderately well. They bought exactly because they wanted a skilful battering ram to play off and he failed utterly over the two legs to do that. Pique did better than him at that when he went up front (and scored a goal as well).
Very disappointing show from him.
It's one thing to not score. But a striker of his stature and ability should at least be able to hold up the ball moderately well. They bought exactly because they wanted a skilful battering ram to play off and he failed utterly over the two legs to do that. Pique did better than him at that when he went up front (and scored a goal as well).
Very disappointing show from him.
Wait you're bashing Zlatan, which I agree with but yet you've defended Berbatov till the cows come home. If you compare their first seasons and heck even if you compared Berbatov this season to Zlatan, Zlatan has produced more. You're a massive hypocrite.
Which is where your stance falls flat on its face! Eto'o' for all his directness, extra speed and extra work rate was anonymous vs Cheslea in the semi in both legs last year. Just like he had been vs us the previous year. But it wasn't such a big deal than so I don't see why Zlatan's performance last night should be a big deal now. Both their displays where a manifestation of how their team's were dealt with over both legs. Rather than down to them as players, like people are trying to make the case.
Which is a total myth as the 2 previous semi finals he was involved in with Barca proved.
The truth is people just want to point and laugh for the sake of it. But the fact is Zlatan isn't a waste of a space and is way better than they believe or care to admit. He was rightly priced very highly by his club Inter because of how valuable he was to them. & they've reeaped greatly from the reward of sacrificing their prized asset with a champions league final. A final got to not by signing Eto'o. But by getting in several players plus Eto'o to finally become one of the best sides in Europe proper. All this talk that Inter got the better deal by bagging Eto'o is silly. Especially Eto'o has done basically the same things at Inter that Zlatan has been doing for Barca this year.
Agreed.
agreed.
And so the myth persists.
For the million and first time: I have defended Berbatov because he's a Man United player. I try to support all those that play for the club. I'll admit that I will generally support the cause of those players getting stick a little more vehemently because I don't like our players taking stick.
I've never hidden away from the fact that I like Berbatov as a player. I have also never shirked from saying that he has been an underwhelming player for us. I just simply refuse to get drawn into the black and white analysis where the majority of posters end up calling him the worst player on the pitch, if he has done okay. Overall though, I don't think I've written a post on Berbatov on the Caf, without using the word "underwhelming".
In any case, what do Ibrahimovic's inadequacies have to do with Berbatov?
nah he definitely slows down the play, gets the ball at times and just doesn't know what to do with it, he just gets in the way at times and Barca look more of a threat with the young Bojan, somewhat sadly.
Sod off Chief. You find a post of me engaging in the sort of eulagising over Berbatov that you are involved in with Ibrahimovic. My only guilt in the Berbatov debate is that I stand in the middle ground.
Anyway, on Ibrahimovic:
How do Ibra defenders react to that? The Prozone stats show that Berbatov is actually a player that covers a lot of ground in the United side.
And you can sod off as well!
That's shameful. Someone like Peter Crouch isn't shy of covering 12+ km in a game and is frequently the one who covers the most ground.
I'm not saying Zlatan should run quite as much, but he's supposed to cover the same areas and should be putting in the leg work to do that. Especially in a game of this magnitude.
I am beginning to think he doesn't know the meaning of 'getting stuck in'.
Btw, I thought it was hilarious when Guardiola was giving him instructions and Mourinho comes over the whisper something in his ear as he does it. The look on Guardiola's face was the epitomy of the polite and genuinely puzzled 'wtf?'
In terms of goals Zlatan has been better for Barca than Berbatov for us. BUT:
1. Zlatan is what some 40 mil pounds more expensive than Berbatov.
2. They play different roles: Zlatan is a pure striker at Barca, Berbatov was more of an attacking mid last season (and wasn't less productive in that role than say Kaka is at Real) and a supporting striker this season.
Neither Zlatan nor Kaka nor Berbatov have been a success at their new clubs. Obviously, expensive transfers may be quite risky.
1. Zlatan is what some 40 mil pounds more expensive than Berbatov.
2. They play different roles: Zlatan is a pure striker at Barca, Berbatov was more of an attacking mid last season (and wasn't less productive in that role than say Kaka is at Real) and a supporting striker this season.
Neither Zlatan nor Kaka nor Berbatov have been a success at their new clubs. Obviously, expensive transfers may be quite risky.
I just don't understand how that performance or the one last week are defensible.
Chief's wittering on about how he had to play against a brick wall in the 18 yard box. He did cost in excess of £70m. Chief's wittering on about how he'd have scored Bojan's chance - pity his manager didn't deem him good enough to remain on the pitch to take the chance.
All Ibra's defenders can talk about is how "poor" Messi was. No. Messi was quiet by his own standards, but still one of the hubs of their attacking play - bringing that save from Cesar and fashioning the Bojan chance. In any case, at 22 years of age, Messi has already achieved more than Ibrahimovic has, aged 28.
Chief's wittering on about how he had to play against a brick wall in the 18 yard box. He did cost in excess of £70m. Chief's wittering on about how he'd have scored Bojan's chance - pity his manager didn't deem him good enough to remain on the pitch to take the chance.
All Ibra's defenders can talk about is how "poor" Messi was. No. Messi was quiet by his own standards, but still one of the hubs of their attacking play - bringing that save from Cesar and fashioning the Bojan chance. In any case, at 22 years of age, Messi has already achieved more than Ibrahimovic has, aged 28.
Nope, not at all, at times Barca cross the ball into the box and he's not even there, the shorter lads are forward, strange really, but I wouldn't classify Zlatan as a pure striker
Why is Berbatov even relevant to this conversation? Just because Berbatov has underwhelmed for us, that doesn't make Ibra's stint at Barcelona any more acceptable.
A fairer comparison would be to have a look at strikers who moved in the summer to new clubs and an analysis of how they settled in.
People lambast Berbatov for that very reason - rightly so. Ibrahimovic is even worse. The man makes no fecking effort to be on the end of things. Second most expensive player ever. It really is truly laughable.
They are very similar players which is why they are compared, athough I would say Berba is a worse version of Zlatan
If there is a player in that team of Barca who could be characterised as a pure striker this must be Zlatan, he leads the line for them, Messi, Pedro etc. attack from deeper positions. It's not the same with Berbatov bar 3-4 games in which he played as a lone striker.
Given the difference in price and given that Barca gave up Eto'o in exchange for Ibrahimovic, I'd say the difference isn't majorly pronounced.
People say that Berbatov doesn't try. feck me, Zlatan is so laid back and not arsed that he could conceivably be lying down on a beach.
In any case, my point stands. A more relevant debate would be, which other strikers moved during the summer, at the same time as Zlatan. This is important because they represent players that Barca could have opted for instead:
Ivica Olic for one
@ chief,
i wish i could continue our argument but you seem to be mixing standards and conflating arguments.
i sort of understand your view but in my view your view is wrong. we simply have different stand-points from which we view things
i wish i could continue our argument but you seem to be mixing standards and conflating arguments.
i sort of understand your view but in my view your view is wrong. we simply have different stand-points from which we view things
To all intents and purposes his argument seems to be that:
Ibrahimovic has done the business at the very top level. But just in games that the vast majority of us have never seen.
Ibrahimovic hasn't done worse than Berbatov, so it's all good.
You went as far as saying that he's the "best back up striker around" FFS. If you're going to label Zlatan a "Fl*p" then don't get so touchy when people label Berbatov as just that.
And so the myth persists.
For the million and first time: I have defended Berbatov because he's a Man United player. I try to support all those that play for the club. I'll admit that I will generally support the cause of those players getting stick a little more vehemently because I don't like our players taking stick.
I've never hidden away from the fact that I like Berbatov as a player. I have also never shirked from saying that he has been an underwhelming player for us. I just simply refuse to get drawn into the black and white analysis where the majority of posters end up calling him the worst player on the pitch, if he has done okay. Overall though, I don't think I've written a post on Berbatov on the Caf, without using the word "underwhelming".
In any case, what do Ibrahimovic's inadequacies have to do with Berbatov?
He didn't even cost 70 mill in euros. Eto'o has a year on his contract left and no one wanted him (hell Barca tried enough times to get rid of him). So I guess it made sense to use him in a swap deal along with 49 mill euros to land Zlatan because Inter just wouldn't have sold for anything other than a stupendous price.
I thought Guardiola made a mistake taking him and the man of class Sergio B off. Yaya and Keita offered nothing yet he kept them on. Strange.
Would have looked like a master stroke had Bojan scored the header or had his chopped off goal rightfully allowed.
Would have looked like a master stroke had Bojan scored the header or had his chopped off goal rightfully allowed.
Can you show me where I've said that please, because I feel as though I am either a) being misquoted or b) being quoted out of context.
Come on, show me...
You don't understand why a Manchester United fan might get touchy about people slagging off one of our players, whilst at the same time being happy to slag off a big-nosed, arrogant Swede who plays for Inter Milan?
it was said when he was at juve, inter
has all the talent in the world, just needs to take a couple of years to develop it.
i am still saying it. thats not good.
has all the talent in the world, just needs to take a couple of years to develop it.
i am still saying it. thats not good.
Yep. He's 28 years old. If he can't be a raving success at the sharp end of Barcelona's attack then you've reached a ceiling.
despite the handball? which even if not intentional, probably changed the direction in which the ball would have gone, if it had hit the stomach.
it would have been unfair advantage, even if the intention wasn't there.
The answer is no.
Yet you don't mind slagging Nani off constantly on these boards, last time I checked he's one of us, there's a difference between a United fan and fanboi, such undeserved, unmerited high praise for Berba is the latter, nobody could possibly take it seriously.
You just get touchy on anything Berba but I don't see the same defence mechanisms from you for other players in our team, especially the Portugese lad.
Barcelona would have been better off holding on to Eto, they'd probably be in the final now, probably....
Zlatan was dire...
Zlatan was dire...
Mate - you'd struggle to find any absurd levels of praise for Berbatov from myself of Pogue. Trouble is that you lot start with such a low opinion of the player that when we stand on the middle ground, we're perceived as being fanbois who give him more credit than he's due.
The truth is, we have both never shirked from saying that overall Berbatov has underwhelmed - just to no where near the extent that you lot make out.
And get off your Nani high horse. I'd wager that you, like many a poster, will have been sticking the boot into Nani prior to the turn of this year.
We've already discussed this - https://www.redcafe.net/f7/zlatan-ibrahimovic-141462/index38.html#post7944338. Interestingly, and this is a fact the media and others have ignored in their stampede to criticise Ibrahimovic, it was Messi who (relatively) covered less distance than any outfield player, and had he been taken off after the hour would have covered substantially less distance than Valdes.
In any case, both players hadn't trained for some time, were unfit and probably shouldn't have played. Furthermore, Samuel raked his studs down the back of Zlatan's calf in the first minute (see the photos).
Criticising either player for the distance they covered when patently not fit is truly scraping the barrel.
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