I don't think one match shows that in general, though. We were excellent today but even if we were a title winning side those types of performances are ones that only come a select number of times a season. We're not going to play like that every week, although it does show we can cope without Zlatan if we get our tactics and team right.
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 46
- Goals
- 28
- Assists
- 9
- Yellow cards
- 8
- Status
I don't think one match shows that in general, though. We were excellent today but even if we were a title winning side those types of performances are ones that only come a select number of times a season. We're not going to play like that every week, although it does show we can cope without Zlatan if we get our tactics and team right.
A lot of people are getting carried away. Putting far too much stock into a one-off game. Ibrahimovic is still our best forward and should be in the team. Should we pair him up with one of Rashford or Martial in a more positive two striker system? That's a valid question. But we're not better off without him in the slightest.
Rashford isn't effective against compact treams that sit in yet so Zlatan still has his part to play. I don't see a place in the team for Zlatan when we play City though.
But have not seen it any time before today. The games Zlatan missed before today we have been poor in, yes, all of them. So maybe wait a few games?
We wasn't poor against Middlesbrough. We played decent football prior to Mata being replaced by Rojo. Rashford and Lingard linked well.
No doubt about it. He is better for most games I would argue. The most frustrating thing (missed chances aside) with having Ibra though is how he plays 90' of every game, regardless of how the game is going, how he's doing, or what the game needs. I think today was the first league game when he's technically available but didn't play the full 90'? Even if he's having a stinker, he still plays 90'. Even if the the game is crying for counter-attacking pace, he's still playing the 90'.
That's not Ibra's problem to be fair, that's Mourinho's handling of it.
Ibra is good for some games, for some Marcus. It's simple. Today having Marcus up front was brilliant. In some other games having Ibra is great, especially since he can score from nothing.
Words of wisdom right there. When opposition is making a bunker, we use our heavy artillery - Ibrahimovic.
When we need pace we use Rashford and Martial.
I was saying it from the start no need to drop Zlatan but subbing him off for the change of pace every once in a while when he's having a mare and giving a chance to our young strikers would be nice.
Would be good to see us in 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 with them all interchanging.
Why are people going on about todays match as being too small a sample size? We haven't played good, flowing, attacking football all season with Zlatan in the team.
If Zlatan was played the ball that Rashford was for the first goal, there's no way we score. He would've held it up and passed it back.
This is how I imagined Zlatan would have been played when he first came here: in rotation with Rashford depending on the opposition.
This is how I imagined Zlatan would have been played when he first came here: in rotation with Rashford depending on the opposition.
We haven't had that kind of football for 3 years, more to be honest as the football in Fergie's last year's was also quite tumescent.
We also have not had fast free flowing football when Rashford led the line during Ibra's suspension.
It's going to take time.
What's clear is that Ibra gives the team one thing it has not had for the past 3+ years -- a consistent goal scorer. He's not perfect but he's the best we have now, it's just a matter of how fast Rashford can grow.
I remember Saha being bought and it took him a while before the team was built around him and not Van Nistelrooy -- it's quite similar here actually.
But Darmian played in those games. Does that also mean the game was better because of him?
Are you sure about that? Wasn't the Rashford goal a 'typical' striker goal? Most strikers are waiting for that type of ball to come to them so they can be one on one against the goalkeeper. Only difference here is that Rashford used his speed to get the 'space' to shoot and Ibra might have used his strength to get the 'space' to shoot. At least that's how I see it, might be wrong.
Hes been played through and scored this season. There is just greater chance to play someone like Rashford through due to his pace
I think this is the main difference.
When Zlatan plays, teams can play a high line and suffocate us knowing that he doesn't have the pace to run in behind and damage them. Chelsea came out today having prepared to play against Zlatan, and hence why Rashford started they were a bag of nerves. They weren't prepared to handle him. It was a masterstroke.
That's way I think Zlatan could be perfect for teams that sit back, and Rashford suits the more adventurous teams in terms of style of play.
Thank you for the reply. Do you think Mourinho will try to use both of them in a 4-4-2?
Yes. we have. This is bullcrap. We beat City and Spurs with Zlatan upfront and played really well in those games, to name a few.
I think it definitely could work if Ibra plays a bit deeper. With Rooney crocked and Mata out for the rest of the season it could be a possibility.
Although it's a bit too late in the season to be trying things, it would be great if we could make it work. Potentially the perfect blend of youth, experience, pace and strength if it works.
In all fairness we were great vs. Middlesbrough as well, up until Mourinho decided to go full defensive mode.
Spurs we demolished which is completely true, but we also lost to City in the league and only barely manged to beat them in League Cup when they played with combined 11.
1 game not enough to judge the team without Zlatan.
3 games definitely enough to judge and write off Rashford the striker.
Fans pick and choose what suits their beliefs.
3 games definitely enough to judge and write off Rashford the striker.
Fans pick and choose what suits their beliefs.
What about Bournemouth, Southampton, Leicester (x2), Swansea, Palace, Southampton (final)?
What about those matches? Weren't this whole argument about how 1 game isn't enough of sample size to judge the impact Rashford has when played as CF? He played 2 games great in a system devised to suit his strengths. This game and Middlesbrough. Even against Chelsea in FA Cup he was creating chances for himself and against WBA he was our only attacking player that was trying something.
No, I was replying to a comment about how we haven't played well with Zlatan upfront.
Ahh, okey. There were matches where we didn't tho, but it's normal, it happens.
I'm not one to gloat but I told you (all) so !! ( said with tongue in cheek)
Today we had movement and pace and Chelsea couldn't handle it. The formation and tactics were about pressure and attacking intent, rather than get the ball wait for Zlatan and then play it to him who will hold the ball up (very well) but generally play it backwards and make sure the oppositions defence is in place!
Look it worked well today and it was the type of football I personally prefer to watch. I think Gary Neville said a couple of times, the movement up top made a refreshing change and it did.
Today we had movement and pace and Chelsea couldn't handle it. The formation and tactics were about pressure and attacking intent, rather than get the ball wait for Zlatan and then play it to him who will hold the ball up (very well) but generally play it backwards and make sure the oppositions defence is in place!
Look it worked well today and it was the type of football I personally prefer to watch. I think Gary Neville said a couple of times, the movement up top made a refreshing change and it did.
How big are Jose's stones to rest him from the starting lineup for this game. Pretty awesome tactical move and it paid dividends, sometimes you have to put your rocks out there with a little out of the pants move. He was perfect to bring into this game to calm things down and hold the ball up which is what he is extremely effective at.
We need both types of players. Zlatan and Rashford are not the same type of players and both will play different dependent on system too. I get what @Fracture90 is saying.
You can have a system which benefits a striker who likes to hold up the ball and have runners off him which will suit Zlatan. If you then put Rashford into that, it doesnt work to his strengths.
Same as a system where you have a player going in behind like Rashford. A straight swap for Zlatan would see Zlatan struggle and thus the team struggle to be effective.
Today was a game that was designed to see Rashford use his strengths and it worked and he scored. But if we try the same system against a team that sits 10 men behind the ball, Rashford may become nullified and thats where Zlatan coming deep to draw defenders away can be useful for people to run off him.
I think Zlatan however will be more useful in the Europa League games (with Rashford as sub) and Rashford will be more useful in some of the tough remaining League games (with Zlatan as sub).
Although some games want to see them play together. About finding the balance for Jose.
You can have a system which benefits a striker who likes to hold up the ball and have runners off him which will suit Zlatan. If you then put Rashford into that, it doesnt work to his strengths.
Same as a system where you have a player going in behind like Rashford. A straight swap for Zlatan would see Zlatan struggle and thus the team struggle to be effective.
Today was a game that was designed to see Rashford use his strengths and it worked and he scored. But if we try the same system against a team that sits 10 men behind the ball, Rashford may become nullified and thats where Zlatan coming deep to draw defenders away can be useful for people to run off him.
I think Zlatan however will be more useful in the Europa League games (with Rashford as sub) and Rashford will be more useful in some of the tough remaining League games (with Zlatan as sub).
Although some games want to see them play together. About finding the balance for Jose.
I think there might be a better chance for him to go now. I don't think it was a coincidence that Jose saying he picked up the best side for this game.
Not gonna lie when I saw he wasn't on the team sheet I had a good feeling we were going to win.
but we didn't play good, flowing, attacking football vs chelsea either.
He has scored more goals for us, and some of them very crucial, than I ever expected. Made me eat a crow. Has turned out to be an astute acquisition when we needed a bit of a personality at United. Next season? Let's see.
Agree with this, particularly the point about dropping deep and leaving the box empty. Makes it so much more difficult to score and removes the number of options further forward.
Zlatan is useful and a great player, no one can fault or dispute his contribution but the style of play were forced to play is extremely frustrating and one dimensional.
I've played to a good standard and agree with the post so that dispels this nonesense!
Probably Zlatan going to somewhere else next season is true now.
Because the way I see it is that Jose is able to drop him now instead of trying to persuade him to stay next season by keep playing him in almost every game 90 mins.
I suppose we will see more in coming games.
Because the way I see it is that Jose is able to drop him now instead of trying to persuade him to stay next season by keep playing him in almost every game 90 mins.
I suppose we will see more in coming games.
There is no way he would have scored it. Even if the defence didn't catch up with him those are the chances he has been worst at finishing this season. That said, Rashford has missed a few in recent games too.
I agree and I think benching him yesterday under the guise of being tired and rested for midweek was/is smoke and mirrors.
May be reading too much into it though!
The gameplan demanded another type of striker today.
Doesn't mean he shouldn't start most matches until the end of the season, but it does make you question whether a bit more rotation would've been good for both us and Zlatan throughout.
It also makes me wonder whether Zlatan/Rashford as a duo could have played more games this season... Perhaps surrounded by Mkhitaryan/Martial or Mkhitaryan/Mata with two midfielders deeper.
Doesn't mean he shouldn't start most matches until the end of the season, but it does make you question whether a bit more rotation would've been good for both us and Zlatan throughout.
It also makes me wonder whether Zlatan/Rashford as a duo could have played more games this season... Perhaps surrounded by Mkhitaryan/Martial or Mkhitaryan/Mata with two midfielders deeper.
Absolutely. He contributed through goals and assists but I feel we gave up so much in order to accommodate for his lacking. Our attacking is quite slow and we're very predictable with him leading the line.
At the moments you could see opposition back line standing as high as the half line with no fear of anyone running behind them.
I have no problem with him staying for another season but only of his status will change. He cannot be immune to being subbed off no longer and he must accept that he won't always be the first choice.
Exactly this. Imagine defenders having to deal with speed and pace of Rashford/Martial down the middle for the last 20 ish minutes of the game after being in a physical war with Zlatan for 70 ish minutes.
What a change of pace would that have been.
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