Yet another mass shooting and at a church, again

Buchan said:
You haven't refuted what I said re: dishonourable discharge/illegal to own guns in those circumstances. He wasn't supposed to have firearms as per the law but he still managed to commit this atrocity. All I said was simply 'gun laws' won't be enough to quell these sort of acts.
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I have no idea on that law or his personal history, but how about the fact that private sales of guns require no background checks? Maybe that's how he got one. That's one of the many things that Democrats have been trying to change for years, that the public are significantly in favour of, that the GOP and gun lobby won't allow. How about they start at the most basic and straightforward stuff like that and push forward, rather than glibly saying "it's not enough" and presenting no other options.
 
JustAFan said:
Yeah you do. The Civil War came before any attempts by Lincoln to free the slaves. And even his first attempt came only after the war was well underway and only freed slaves in Confederate states, well it declared them free it didn't actually end slavery for most of them.

The 13th ammendment was not passed until the war was almost over.
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What this has to do with my post I have no clue.
 
Infra-red said:
I'm not from the US and do not live there, but as you point out, the pious concern many Americans have for the Second Amendment really does not make much sense in the 21st Century.

I do think that there is actually a legitimate argument to be made for people in the US to possess guns for reasons of self-defence, but that obviously should not extend to assualt weapons, large magazines, unlimited ammo, and the ability for known criminals/the mentally ill to purchase weapons. Ownership should be strictly controlled and licenced, with possession of a firearm contingent on the person succcessfully completing rigorous training in both the use and safe storage of the weapon.

Tribalism and irrational political partisanship will likely mean that the US will never impose commonsense policies such as these, of course.
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It’s really something I don’t get. They seem to think that firearms in Europe are banned when in reality, when you don’t have a criminal record and you stick by the gun laws, it’s not that hard to own a gun here. In Germany especially it is quite easy to have a gun, or multiple ones, just if you have a hunting license.

Best argument I have heard lately is „look at what Nazi Germany did to gun laws, people didn’t have a chance to fight the gouvernment!“ First of all: not many wanted to. Especially in war, it would have been hard to get a lot of weapons from somewhere yet nobody started a uprising for various reasons, biggest being that you just don’t have a chance against organized military. Second of all, the Reich actually liberalized gun laws. Americans. They just eat the shit they get served by the NRA without question. I really think it’s an education issue in the US.
 
Buchan said:
You haven't refuted what I said re: dishonourable discharge/illegal to own guns in those circumstances. He wasn't supposed to have firearms as per the law but he still managed to commit this atrocity. All I said was simply 'gun laws' won't be enough to quell these sort of acts.
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Unless your view is that it should require the guarantee that 100% of incidents would be prevented in order to make a change and that there's no point even reducing the numbers by any percentage if it can't be 100 - then I'm not sure what your point is.
 
Ubik said:
I have no idea on that law or his personal history, but how about the fact that private sales of guns require no background checks? Maybe that's how he got one. That's one of the many things that Democrats have been trying to change for years, that the public are significantly in favour of, that the GOP and gun lobby won't allow. How about they start at the most basic and straightforward stuff like that and push forward, rather than glibly saying "it's not enough" and presenting no other options.
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Exactly. One of the reasons it’s so easy to sell and buy illegal weapons in the US is states allowing private purchase without background checks. Someone buys a gun or various in such a state and sells them illegally in one with stricter gun laws, knowing there’s absolutely no way of tracing back those guns. Defending those selling practices is just beyond logic. If you are such a lawful citizen as they always proclaim to be, why is it a fecking problem to at least allow the tracing of private gun sales you get the dealers more easily?
 
Zarlak said:
Unless your view is that it should require the guarantee that 100% of incidents would be prevented in order to make a change and that there's no point even reducing the numbers by any percentage if it can't be 100 - then I'm not sure what your point is.
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That actually is most Americans point. „But you could also just use a truck!“ True. Can happen. You can’t always prevent it. But even a decrease by 20% over 20 years (imminent effect is unrealistic with the insane amount of guns in the system) should be worth it. It’s like being against fitting airbags to cars or against mandatory safety belts because it won’t prevent 100% of deaths in car crashes.
 
Rado_N said:
I went to a shooting range in the US last year as I wanted to experience first hand exactly what it was like. I'm not gonna lie it was pretty bloody scary being handed a lethal weapon and a box of ammunition. The woman running the range showed us how to load it and fire a single round and then just left us alone in there with two handguns and about 200 rounds.

The next day we were in an Uber and chatting with the driver about our trip and he asked what we'd been upto; I mentioned the above and how it felt somewhat scary to just be handed a gun like that, something I termed as a "healthy respect" for what I was handling.

Honest to god the guy couldn't understand what I was talking about. He thought it was really weird that we'd be intimidated by a gun, and told us how his 8 year old daughter got an AR-15 rifle for her birthday that year.
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You just don't get it. That way she can protect her classmates if someone goes on a mass killing spree at her school.
 
Ubik said:
I have no idea on that law or his personal history, but how about the fact that private sales of guns require no background checks? Maybe that's how he got one. That's one of the many things that Democrats have been trying to change for years, that the public are significantly in favour of, that the GOP and gun lobby won't allow. How about they start at the most basic and straightforward stuff like that and push forward, rather than glibly saying "it's not enough" and presenting no other options.
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Also everyone agrees it will be a bloody monumental task but you can't just keep on doing nothing. You have to start somewhere and if it's going to take half a century to get the job done then so be it.
You could start off by offering some sort of compensation to whoever turns in guns before a set date. After that date possession of certain guns comes with 10 years in jail or whatever. Of course you should then make it harder to obtain licences at the same time, and make any sort of assault rifle illegal outside of a shooting range and what not. Just do something for Christ's sake.
 
Rinse and repeat. I've given up reading these threads.
It seems like it happens every other week and the shooter is then condemned by everyone, and heartfelt feelings go out to the victims and their families.
 
So another bunch of people died. People act as if they care for few days. Then back to loads and loads of gun for everyone. And add to it mental issues and drugs and alcohol. It is a nice combination to have. This keeps US population in check and prevents it from going down the China, India way.
It is obvious as feck that common man is happy with so many guns in the market. No point blaming politicians or anyone. Only mass movement by people would bring that change. But, no one cares.
From an outsider point of view, one would think that at least kids shooting themselves or others in their homes, kids accidentally killing others in school or things like that would make people not want guns. But hell no. No one cares.
 
Rado_N said:
I went to a shooting range in the US last year as I wanted to experience first hand exactly what it was like. I'm not gonna lie it was pretty bloody scary being handed a lethal weapon and a box of ammunition. The woman running the range showed us how to load it and fire a single round and then just left us alone in there with two handguns and about 200 rounds.

The next day we were in an Uber and chatting with the driver about our trip and he asked what we'd been upto; I mentioned the above and how it felt somewhat scary to just be handed a gun like that, something I termed as a "healthy respect" for what I was handling.

Honest to god the guy couldn't understand what I was talking about. He thought it was really weird that we'd be intimidated by a gun, and told us how his 8 year old daughter got an AR-15 rifle for her birthday that year.
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I don't know why you are afraid of snakes, I got my daughter a King Cobra for her birthday and she loves it / I don't know why you are afraid of drugs, I got my daughter and 8 ball for her birthday and she loved it. All I take from this is that guy is a terrible father as I can not see any situation that little girl would need a weapon like that unless he plans on sending her to the military or law enforcement (and also receive proper training to use that weapon and not from her daddy in a field) or she plans to kill 25 people in a church.
I was the same as you when I first held a weapon and to this day I can never understand the hard on people in this country have for guns. fecking cowards.
 
2 Man Midfield said:
Was this terrorism? For me terrorism needs a political agenda. One guy with an as yet unknown motive can't be labelled terrorism imo (even if it is intrinsically terrifying). I'd say the same if the shooter wasn't white.
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I am sure he meant that as sarcasm, just like I mentioned Trump not saying anything about "extreme vetting". Anyhow, what difference would it make if this was terrorism or not. It's not going to bring back the lives of 26 people, or heal the wounds of the injured people, or heal the pain their families are and will be going through.
 
ghagua said:
I am sure he meant that as sarcasm, just like I mentioned Trump not saying anything about "extreme vetting". Anyhow, what difference would it make if this was terrorism or not. It's not going to bring back the lives of 26 people, or heal the wounds of the injured people, or heal the pain their families are and will be going through.
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Doesn't make any difference, as I said in a previous post...

2 Man Midfield said:
It doesn't matter what they look like or which god they pray to. The common denominator is their weapons. America needs to swallow its pride and get over this outdated notion that they have a right to bear arms.
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Randall Flagg said:
Guns are too ingrained in US society for anything to change. So there is little that can be done. And we saw with Obama that even when he tried to make changes they all failed

The country is fecked. These mass shootings are making the headlines, but just day to day the stats are unbelievable

Anyone who saw the Louis Theroux a few weeks ago on gun crime in Milwaukee might have been left with the same empty feeling as me. There is no answer, its too late. Damage has been done
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The vast majority of Americans don't own guns and a very small percentage of gun owners own over half the weapons. Major gun control initiatives would not directly effect Americans in the slightest. Here is my take. All guns should be registered with the local police department. All guns should have insurance for theft and injury and a victims family should be able to sue the owner regardless of them pulling the trigger. Eventually all firearms must have user identification technology to prevent children and others from discharging your weapon by accident or intentional, also covers your ass in a civil case.
No more military grade weapons for sale to the general public. If they can prevent me from buying more than a couple of bottles of cough syrup than this can be easily done and the purchasing of these weapons should be by special license with stringent control like dangerous chemicals.
Any "sportsman" that complains should be told to feck off and buy a crossbow, if you consider firing hundreds of rounds at a target to be sport then it's time to level up to something with more skill. I know a lot of hunters and have never heard of one person setting out on a hunt with an AR-15, only people, these weapons are used to hunt people.
And finally, home protection only. Nobody should need a firearm in public unless they are engaging in criminal acts or looking to intimidate the general public. If you are that afraid to go out in public without a gun I suggest you go out and familiarize yourself with your community by volunteering and getting involved in local events with different races and religions. This would go a long way to help you feel safer and not need a concealed or open carry weapon. If none of these solutions agree with a responsible member of society then it seems they are the ones we should fear as they are clearly not right in the head.
 
barros said:
Some people must be obsessed with white people, the guy who killed 8 people with a truck in New York was white
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Don't be daft. "White people" references those of western and northern European descent who aren't Muslim.
 
GiddyUp said:
The vast majority of Americans don't own guns and a very small percentage of gun owners own over half the weapons. Major gun control initiatives would not directly effect Americans in the slightest. Here is my take. All guns should be registered with the local police department. All guns should have insurance for theft and injury and a victims family should be able to sue the owner regardless of them pulling the trigger. Eventually all firearms must have user identification technology to prevent children and others from discharging your weapon by accident or intentional, also covers your ass in a civil case.
No more military grade weapons for sale to the general public. If they can prevent me from buying more than a couple of bottles of cough syrup than this can be easily done and the purchasing of these weapons should be by special license with stringent control like dangerous chemicals.
Any "sportsman" that complains should be told to feck off and buy a crossbow, if you consider firing hundreds of rounds at a target to be sport then it's time to level up to something with more skill. I know a lot of hunters and have never heard of one person setting out on a hunt with an AR-15, only people, these weapons are used to hunt people.
And finally, home protection only. Nobody should need a firearm in public unless they are engaging in criminal acts or looking to intimidate the general public. If you are that afraid to go out in public without a gun I suggest you go out and familiarize yourself with your community by volunteering and getting involved in local events with different races and religions. This would go a long way to help you feel safer and not need a concealed or open carry weapon. If none of these solutions agree with a responsible member of society then it seems they are the ones we should fear as they are clearly not right in the head.
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But who is going to bell the cat? The politicians have no interest as they are paid well enough by the lobby. The gun owners are hardly moved by any of these incidents, else they would have given up arms willingly long back.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Has anyone floated the idea of extreme vetting for gun owners?
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You need to understand each state have their own laws, in Texas is really easy to buy a gun and even to carry a concealed gun, in New Jersey for example has the 30 days period of time plus a few more things to make harder to buy them and basically only police and criminals carry guns in the streets because they will refuse any concealed gun permit.
 
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GiddyUp said:
The vast majority of Americans don't own guns and a very small percentage of gun owners own over half the weapons. Major gun control initiatives would not directly effect Americans in the slightest. Here is my take. All guns should be registered with the local police department. All guns should have insurance for theft and injury and a victims family should be able to sue the owner regardless of them pulling the trigger. Eventually all firearms must have user identification technology to prevent children and others from discharging your weapon by accident or intentional, also covers your ass in a civil case.
No more military grade weapons for sale to the general public. If they can prevent me from buying more than a couple of bottles of cough syrup than this can be easily done and the purchasing of these weapons should be by special license with stringent control like dangerous chemicals.
Any "sportsman" that complains should be told to feck off and buy a crossbow, if you consider firing hundreds of rounds at a target to be sport then it's time to level up to something with more skill. I know a lot of hunters and have never heard of one person setting out on a hunt with an AR-15, only people, these weapons are used to hunt people.
And finally, home protection only. Nobody should need a firearm in public unless they are engaging in criminal acts or looking to intimidate the general public. If you are that afraid to go out in public without a gun I suggest you go out and familiarize yourself with your community by volunteering and getting involved in local events with different races and religions. This would go a long way to help you feel safer and not need a concealed or open carry weapon. If none of these solutions agree with a responsible member of society then it seems they are the ones we should fear as they are clearly not right in the head.
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I can tell you most of the Portuguese (born) and Italians (born) have shotguns and rifles to hunt, only in the cities most of the normal people don't own guns.
 
barros said:
Must be an American and British thing, if was an Australian he would be called "white" or if was a Mexican?
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The guy in New York was bearded, Muslim, had a foreign name, and from Uzbekistan originally. He may have had white skin, but no one is going to associate him with the typical white guy in the US/UK.

If the shooter was Australian, white skin, had a normal name, and wasn't Muslim, he'd be considered "white" and politicians would be hesitant on using the terrorist label.

If the shooter was Mexican, politicians in the US would most likely have an aggressive response and immediately talk about stronger borders, walls, and vetting.

It's the distinction between being "one of us" vs "one of them", ultimately.
 
Of course the answer is more guns. fecking piece of shit organization the NRA is. And the Republicans as well. Worst scum on earth.
 
SaintTresano said:
The guy in New York was bearded, Muslim, had a foreign name, and from Uzbekistan originally. He may have had white skin, but no one is going to associate him with the typical white guy in the US/UK.

If the shooter was Australian, white skin, had a normal name, and wasn't Muslim, he'd be considered "white" and politicians would be hesitant on using the terrorist label.

If the shooter was Mexican, politicians in the US would most likely have an aggressive response and immediately talk about stronger borders, walls, and vetting.

It's the distinction between being "one of us" vs "one of them", ultimately.
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That's why I said must be an American and British thing, they read the name and where that person came from and if is not European with a north European name then is not white, but anyway I see here in the forum people trying to bring racism to any conversation and is not "white" is pure racism because a terrorist is a terrorist and doesn't matter the color of their skin.
 
RDCR07 said:
Of course the answer is more guns. fecking piece of shit organization the NRA is. And the Republicans as well. Worst scum on earth.
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I'm Republican and because of your post I'm buying a .45 to add to my 9mm.....don't forget to add some Democrats on your scum list, you see in the south most of them support the 2nd Amendment.

well eventually I will buy one and they are fun to shoot on my local range.
 
Organic Potatoes said:
That's a must. You wouldn't want something like this to happen:



The girl kills the shooting instructor...
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I didn't click on it as I could not watch it knowing something like that would happen. That poor girl has to live with that on her mind for the rest of her days. Two lives ruined, one guy dies and his family are devastated and the life of a poor innocent young girl who will likely have issues in her family life and when she is old enough to have a family. Perpetual misery...
 
barros said:
I'm Republican and because of your post I'm buying a .45 to add to my 9mm.....don't forget to add some Democrats on your scum list, you see in the south most of them support the 2nd Amendment.

well eventually I will buy one and they are fun to shoot on my local range.
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I meant the Senators. Also sure I think like 2 Democrats get money from the NRA. And the top 40 donations from the NRA go to the Republicans. One democrat is 42nd and the other is 49th I think on the list. So yes the Republicans are the ones who are supporting them.
 
EyeInTheSky said:
I didn't click on it as I could not watch it knowing something like that would happen. That poor girl has to live with that on her mind for the rest of her days. Two lives ruined, one guy dies and his family are devastated and the life of a poor innocent young girl who will likely have issues in her family life and when she is old enough to have a family. Perpetual misery...
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I blame the fecking parents. No excuse to bring a 9 year old to a shooting range.
 
EyeInTheSky said:
I didn't click on it as I could not watch it knowing something like that would happen. That poor girl has to live with that on her mind for the rest of her days. Two lives ruined, one guy dies and his family are devastated and the life of a poor innocent young girl who will likely have issues in her family life and when she is old enough to have a family. Perpetual misery...
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Well I'm against having such young people shooting in the range and the max they would be able to shoot would be only a .22 rifle, that was too stupid and I shot with an Uzi when I was in service and I couldn't keep the gun straight now think about a little girl.
 
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