Yet another mass shooting and at a church, again

Kentonio said:
Ah yes, that must be why we see mass murders in all the other countries every week. Oh wait..
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I understand where you are coming from. But yes, cruelty is very often seen among us humans. Some beat their family members, others kill with their reckless driving, third shoot up churches. In many places in Africa murder is not even surprising. In many places in Asia people live in fear because the mafia has their families in sights.

As horrible as this latest event is, it's nothing but a blip in the murderous life of humans. It's just that it hits harder when it's closer to home, happens to people similar to us, in our so called civilized societies.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Hmmm... what could we do?

Nope, I’m stuck, absolutely nothing :wenger:
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Guns are too ingrained in US society for anything to change. So there is little that can be done. And we saw with Obama that even when he tried to make changes they all failed

The country is fecked. These mass shootings are making the headlines, but just day to day the stats are unbelievable

Anyone who saw the Louis Theroux a few weeks ago on gun crime in Milwaukee might have been left with the same empty feeling as me. There is no answer, its too late. Damage has been done
 
vi1lain said:
Saw on my facebook that people want to keep their guns in case the Government turns to tyranny, they want to be able to protect themselves and their families? :wenger:

Sorry but, if the government wanted to kill you, they will do so - with utter ease.
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This actually probably highlights one of the ways in which the constitutional right to bear arms has become sort of redundant. The argument that ordinary citizens could overturn their government so long as they had weapons was probably true at one point of American history, when the nation was merely establishing itself and wasn't a major military power. Now they've got an obscenely large military though, it's sort of meaningless. Any attempts to take-on the US government, if it was to come to that, would ultimately fail.
 
Randall Flagg said:
Guns are too ingrained in US society for anything to change. So there is little that can be done. And we saw with Obama that even when he tried to make changes they all failed

The country is fecked. These mass shootings are making the headlines, but just day to day the stats are unbelievable

Anyone who saw the Louis Theroux a few weeks ago on gun crime in Milwaukee might have been left with the same empty feeling as me. There is no answer, its too late. Damage has been done
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Surely it can't be like that, sure, the guns are ingrained in the US society, sure it would be difficult to change that, but Slavery was ingrained in the US society, Sexisme was, and both those things have been mostly eradicated, if we think like that, nothing can be done about anything.

When you see all the efforts done to eradicate the "terrorism" that kills per year what shootings kill in a couple of days, surely something can and have to be done in relation to the guns.
 
Mr H said:
There's no logic in what


Surely it can't be like that, sure, the guns are ingrained in the US society, sure it would be difficult to change that, but Slavery was ingrained in the US society, Sexisme was, and both those things have been mostly eradicated, if we think like that, nothing can be done about anything.

When you see all the efforts done to eradicate the "terrorism" that kills per year what shootings kill in a couple of days, surely something can and have to be done in relation to the guns.
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Well, it took a bloody civil war to stop slavery (and the racism that was a product of it still thrives today).

After Sandy Hook I just gave up any hope they'll change, not for a long time anyway. There's just too much money involved.
 
Mr H said:
Surely it can't be like that, sure, the guns are ingrained in the US society, sure it would be difficult to change that, but Slavery was ingrained in the US society, Sexisme was, and both those things have been mostly eradicated, if we think like that, nothing can be done about anything.

When you see all the efforts done to eradicate the "terrorism" that kills per year what shootings kill in a couple of days, surely something can and have to be done in relation to the guns.
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Thing is, people would literally bury their guns in the yard to prevent losing them.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
What do you expect him to say? Deport our citizens and change our constitution?

If gun rights were to be tweaked it should come from the congress. If no one is introducing a bill, the debate is automatically a non-starter. That includes Democrats, Republicans and Independents.
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It's only words on a piece of paper that the founding fathers knew should be changed as the society changes. A constitution isn't enshrined in stone. You have a legislative body and an executive that has enough powers to make these changes if it's necessary. Too bad the American way of life worships money.
 
Ubik said:
Well, it took a bloody civil war to stop slavery (and the racism that was a product of it still thrives today).

After Sandy Hook I just gave up any hope they'll change, not for a long time anyway. There's just too much money involved.
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No no, that was about "State's rights" remember, not slavery.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Not having that, so was slavery. It just takes one president and senate with real balls a la Lincoln.
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While I get the comparison to slavery, the amount of lobbying and campaign funding from the pro-gun people make it virtually impossible to make lasting change over the course of a presidency. Obama made small changes with the gun check and within months of Trump taking control they were wiped out.
 
vi1lain said:
Saw on my facebook that people want to keep their guns in case the Government turns to tyranny, they want to be able to protect themselves and their families? :wenger:

Sorry but, if the government wanted to kill you, they will do so - with utter ease.
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The 2nd amendment is an artifact from the days when the military where largely peasants with muskets, in which case other peasants with muskets could rise up and overthrow them in case of tyranny.

If the US government decided to murder their own citizens today i really doubt a couple of rednecks with rifles would do much when they brought out the nukes and tactical bombers
 
vi1lain said:
:lol: Add to the fact that most people aren't good at aiming, even when there's no pressure on them, and its just a disaster. They're more likely to shoot the dog.



I don't even understand the argument that you like guns just for the sake of having them - unless you're hunting it's not really a hobby to go shooting with a pistol or glock, or tech-9, is it?
It's just there for people as a material possession, and to customise and clean and upgrade and feel as though it's part of their culture.

All very bizarre.
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They just think they're cool. It makes them feel hard, like a man because they have the power to end someones life. That basically is what it boils down to. The bullshit arguments about protection, as Jim says none of them subscribe to padlock monthly or post pictures on Facebook of them stood behind huge secure doors. They don't give a feck about protection, it's just a convenient excuse to mask that it just is cool to them. Add on the bullshit arguments like 'I use it for protection, even though it's locked in a safe and thus would protect me from nothing'. I don't doubt that some of them genuinely believe it will provide them with protection, despite all stats showing that it doesn't and that it only makes things worse, or ends up with dead young children or suicides but for the most part it's just something that makes someone feel cool. Guns are cool to them. It's so cemented in their culture, owning a gun is American, and nothing can be done to damage the essence of what it means to be American. Freedom and guns, yee haw.
 
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I used to think that a lot of this gun culture came down from the early days when when a combination of the need to hunt and protect yourself on the frontier. But apparently most of it can be put down to the arms industry which needed to replace the markets lost after WW 1.
 
Bobcat said:
The 2nd amendment is an artifact from the days when the military where largely peasants with muskets, in which case other peasants with muskets could rise up and overthrow them in case of tyranny.

If the US government decided to murder their own citizens today i really doubt a couple of rednecks with rifles would do much when they brought out the nukes and tactical bombers
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That's a bit like demolishing a building in order to expel a tenant. The reality is worse than that, the thousands of a well trained and equipped soldiers are enough to get rid of the rednecks with rifles.
 
JPRouve said:
That's a bit like demolishing a building in order to expel a tenant. The reality is worse than that, the thousands of a well trained and equipped soldiers are enough to get rid of the rednecks with rifles.
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Drones are more than enough without soldiers on the ground
 
walkinhop said:
I understand where you are coming from. But yes, cruelty is very often seen among us humans. Some beat their family members, others kill with their reckless driving, third shoot up churches. In many places in Africa murder is not even surprising. In many places in Asia people live in fear because the mafia has their families in sights.

As horrible as this latest event is, it's nothing but a blip in the murderous life of humans. It's just that it hits harder when it's closer to home, happens to people similar to us, in our so called civilized societies.
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You are not wrong of course, but too often your position is used by others as an excuse for not taking action to solve issues. Sure people are assholes everywhere, but only in the US do they go out and mass murder their fellow citizens at such a terrifyingly high rate.

They have reached a point where any list of mass killings tends to have a caveat at the bottom that says 'excludes gang related killings and killings performed during the course of another crime (eg armed robbery)'. Think about that for a moment. They don't even consider mass murders under those circumstances to be particularly noteworthy. You have to actually go out with no motive and just massacre people before they consider it something to be concerned about.
 
Kentonio said:
You are not wrong of course, but too often your position is used by others as an excuse for not taking action to solve issues. Sure people are assholes everywhere, but only in the US do they go out and mass murder their fellow citizens at such a terrifyingly high rate.

They have reached a point where any list of mass killings tends to have a caveat at the bottom that says 'excludes gang related killings and killings performed during the course of another crime (eg armed robbery)'. Think about that for a moment. They don't even consider mass murders under those circumstances to be particularly noteworthy. You have to actually go out with no motive and just massacre people before they consider it something to be concerned about.
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That's what happens when your mother is your sister.
 
Was Kelley dishonourably discharged from the military? Aren't people in those circumstances prevented from legally owning guns? If that's the case, gun laws, like we saw in Las Vegas with modified automatic weapons, have little effect. The answer must go further than 'gun laws'.
 
Buchan said:
Was Kelley dishonourably discharged from the military? Aren't people in those circumstances prevented from legally owning guns? If that's the case, gun laws, like we saw in Las Vegas with modified automatic weapons, have little effect. The answer must go further than 'gun laws'.
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Gun laws make it harder to get a gun ffs, the entire reason people get their hands on guns who maybe shouldn’t is because it’s a piece of piss!

Lack of gun laws is what has little effect.
 
Buchan said:
Was Kelley dishonourably discharged from the military? Aren't people in those circumstances prevented from legally owning guns? If that's the case, gun laws, like we saw in Las Vegas with modified automatic weapons, have little effect. The answer must go further than 'gun laws'.
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Go on then, we're waiting.

And also, weren't bump stocks legal in Nevada?
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Gun laws make it harder to get a gun ffs, the entire reason people get their hands on guns who maybe shouldn’t is because it’s a piece of piss!

Lack of gun laws is what has little effect.
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Do you genuinely believe people are going to hand in their guns in some sort of amnesty if the Government decides tomorrow that firearms are illegal?
 
Ubik said:
Go on then, we're waiting.

And also, weren't bump stocks legal in Nevada?
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You haven't refuted what I said re: dishonourable discharge/illegal to own guns in those circumstances. He wasn't supposed to have firearms as per the law but he still managed to commit this atrocity. All I said was simply 'gun laws' won't be enough to quell these sort of acts.
 
Buchan said:
You haven't refuted what I said re: dishonourable discharge/illegal to own guns in those circumstances. He wasn't supposed to have firearms as per the law but he still managed to commit this atrocity. All I said was simply 'gun laws' won't be enough to quell these sort of acts.
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So if background checks for everyone, even on second hand selling was law, people who shouldn’t have guns would still be able to get them just as easily as they can today?

You’re saying it’s illegal for him to own a gun, I’m asking, how does the seller know this? As it should also then be illegal even for a second hand seller to sell him the gun right?
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Not all, but plenty will just as they did in Aus. A load of people don’t want to risk breaking laws and ending up in prison.
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Of course a sizeable portion will hand them in but another sizeable portion won't, I'd wager. The point is, 'gun laws' won't rid the streets of America with the countless millions of firearms that are out there. I think we all agree here that guns are bad news. The problem can be helped by 'gun laws' but it won't ever solve it completely. It's too deep-rooted in American society now, sadly.
 
Buchan said:
Of course a sizeable portion will hand them in but another sizeable portion won't, I'd wager. The point is, 'gun laws' won't rid the streets of America with the countless millions of firearms that are out there. I think we all agree here that guns are bad news. The problem can be helped by 'gun laws' but it won't ever solve it completely. It's too deep-rooted in American society now, sadly.
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People said that in Australia too, it bollocks. In fact, more then half the country would probably be happy with a full ban for a start. It’ll take time but America can drastically reduce the number of guns if it really wants to.

If the penalties for being in possession of a gun after any amnesty are harsh, I’d wager a huge percentage would be handed in immediately.
 
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Regulus Arcturus Black said:
No I don’t, but the point was, the constitution has been and still can be changed.
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Yeah you do. The Civil War came before any attempts by Lincoln to free the slaves. And even his first attempt came only after the war was well underway and only freed slaves in Confederate states, well it declared them free it didn't actually end slavery for most of them.

The 13th ammendment was not passed until the war was almost over.
 
I was in the Atlanta area yesterday having Sunday brunch and funday. Went to an international food festival that afternoon, and at some point I checked my phone and saw the news break. I showed to the friends with me. All I could think is how easily that could have occurred at this festival if someone chose that spot. There were hundreds of people there. How one minute you're living life, trying new foods, sharing fun with family and friends - the next minute you're dead/dying/wounded. It can happen anywhere.

These people in that church doing their thing and then gone. But I have zero doubts anything will change. Sandy Hook was the tipping point yet the GOP and some Dems, backed by and fearful of the NRA, dug in deeper.
 
Zarlak said:
Jim Jefferies 2 parter on YouTube about gun control is the best I've seen on this topic, like he says at one point it made a lot of sense when it was just muskets. But you're bringing guns to a drone fight. It's the lamest excuse they hold on to, that it'll help against their tyrannical government. Really, their only excuse is 'feck off, I like guns'.
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I'm not from the US and do not live there, but as you point out, the pious concern many Americans have for the Second Amendment really does not make much sense in the 21st Century.

I do think that there is actually a legitimate argument to be made for people in the US to possess guns for reasons of self-defence, but that obviously should not extend to assault weapons, large magazines, unlimited ammo, and the ability for known criminals/the mentally ill to purchase weapons. Ownership should be strictly controlled and licenced, with possession of a firearm contingent on the person succcessfully completing rigorous training in both the use and safe storage of the weapon.

Tribalism and irrational political partisanship will likely mean that the US will never impose commonsense policies such as these, of course.
 
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