Yet another mass shooting and at a church, again

MrMarcello said:
Saw an article earlier today that the perp's military discharge grounds (domestic violence) should have prevented him from legally acquiring a firearm. The UCMJ does forbid uniformed members charged/convicted of domestic violence from legally carrying, owning, and using a firearm (based on the Lautenberg act which extends to all persons in the US).

Yet this guy checks off no criminal history and uses a Colorado address while living in Texas. But the GOP will still refuse a national registry provision. The exact kind of registry that would have found this individual to have been convicted of a crime that forbids legal purchase and ownership. Yeah, one can claim he'd have found a weapon elsewhere but the fact in this case is he bought it through a store.
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Even worse than that is the fact that internet dealers and gun show dealers (let alone black market dealers) mean that it's even easier to get a gun than ever before. Then you take the fact Trump made it even easier when he walked back the changes Obama made and I think the argument of where and when a gun is purchased is really pointless now. Sadly, this is just going to keep on happening over and over again, and when you see the Texas Governor (or was it Sherriff or Senator) who moaned about California buying more guns than Texas, or the Republican Senator being shot at a baseball game, or Vegas, or Sandy Hook, or........... The excuses constantly made.

Damn. The discussions are pointless we might as well just have a thread saying....... Yet another mass shooting in the USA. Predictable, preventable but never going to happen.

I hate to say it, but i'm sure the fact that so many people are becoming desensitised to it all pleases the NRA no end.
 
The USAF has issued a statement that they failed to refer Kelley's record to the FBI for entrance into their database as a convicted DV. So in this particular case it likely wouldn't have returned Kelley's UCMJ conviction even if he had checked the box, and/or a national registry were in place. That said, with a required national registry it's likely military convictions would automatically transfer over.
 
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Just been reading about the Holcombe family which lost 8 people. 3 generations of this family have been wiped out :(
 
MrMarcello said:
As a former practicing Christian, I can attest that prayer is 100% useless and has never achieved/will never achieve anything.

If praying for another is comforting then so be it. However, it's quite reasonable for non-religious persons, skeptics, even religious persons to question the entire prayer philosophy.
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From my personal experience, I have found prayers quite useful. Obviously, when you say it is 100% useless, you mean that it is useless to you. To each their own, I suppose? I'm not suggesting that prayer shouldn't be questioned here, just saying the reaction to lampooning prayers is from religious people is just as reasonable as atheists/agnostics questioning it.
 
fishfingers15 said:
From my personal experience, I have found prayers quite useful. Obviously, when you say it is 100% useless, you mean that it is useless to you. To each their own, I suppose? I'm not suggesting that prayer shouldn't be questioned here, just saying the reaction to lampooning prayers is from religious people is just as reasonable as atheists/agnostics questioning it.
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Again, if this was an article just saying that atheists should be sensitive about questioning prayer, I wouldn't have posted it. I looked and found another one like that, which is IMO banal rubbish but not worth highlighting.
The one I posted has other implications that I thought were special. Those who are dead have had their prayers answered, and those who are clinging on to life in the hospital are...? something, I don't know.
 
berbatrick said:
Again, if this was an article just saying that atheists should be sensitive about questioning prayer, I wouldn't have posted it. I looked and found another one like that, which is IMO banal rubbish but not worth highlighting.
The one I posted has other implications that I thought were special. Those who are dead have had their prayers answered, and those who are clinging on to life in the hospital are...? something, I don't know.
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Just going through that author's twitter feed - so very predictable, lots of talk about the guy who "stopped the mass shooting".
 
berbatrick said:
Again, if this was an article just saying that atheists should be sensitive about questioning prayer, I wouldn't have posted it. I looked and found another one like that, which is IMO banal rubbish but not worth highlighting.
The one I posted has other implications that I thought were special. Those who are dead have had their prayers answered, and those who are clinging on to life in the hospital are...? something, I don't know.
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I've re-read that article again and I think it's distasteful. Not sure if the author was trying to be too clever, but there are few sections of that article that seems to suggest that dying due to a mass shooting is prayers answered. Can't agree with that at all.
 
fishfingers15 said:
I've re-read that article again and I think it's distasteful. Not sure if the author was trying to be too clever, but there are few sections of that article that seems to suggest that dying due to a mass shooting is prayers answered. Can't agree with that at all.
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Yes, that was my problem with it too.
 
fishfingers15 said:
From my personal experience, I have found prayers quite useful. Obviously, when you say it is 100% useless, you mean that it is useless to you. To each their own, I suppose? I'm not suggesting that prayer shouldn't be questioned here, just saying the reaction to lampooning prayers is from religious people is just as reasonable as atheists/agnostics questioning it.
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I think he means prayer never caused anything to actually happen. A bit like Iain Banks described alternative medicine in reference to his terminal cancer being like "running into a burning building and trying to put the fire out by means of interpretative dance"

It may still be comforting/useful to you of course.
 
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Wibble said:
I think he means prayer never caused anything to actually happen. It may still be comforting/useful to you.
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It would still be his personal experience though, wouldn't it? He would never know what prayers have done for me or for the countless others who continue to pray.
 
fishfingers15 said:
It would still be his personal experience though, wouldn't it? He would never know what prayers have done for me or for the countless others who continue to pray.
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I expanded my post.

He was saying that prayer never caused anything to actually happen in a physical sense. You can't cure cancer with prayer or stop people dying from gun massacres etc.
 
Wibble said:
I expanded my post.

He was saying that prayer never caused anything to actually happen in a physical sense. You don't cure cancer with prayer or stop people dying from gun massacres etc.
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Let me expand a bit further. Say if I have terminal cancer and my days are numbered, I would not pray for cure of cancer but I'd pray for eternal life next. If I'm caught in a Las Vegas style shooting with a gunman killing people at a distance, I may pray for my safety, but if I see the bullet traveling towards me, I won't pray for a magical iron shield to appear suddenly. I'd either run or I'd be dead. Does it make sense? Then again, religion never made sense, but it was always a leap of faith.
 
I say this as an atheist myself but doesn't prayer make a lot of sense on an emotional and psychological level ? For believers it's a dialogue with God but even if it's just seen as a dialogue with yourself, for an individual it may lead to a change of heart, a conviction that something must be done and that you must be part of that movement. It may spur people into action with the moral conviction which is essential in many cases. Slavery had both religious and societal blessing for centuries but anti-slavery movements in the west were mostly or maybe even exclusively led and organised by christians which, as they went against all the exisitng order, needed both moral and in some cases physical courage. Does hope by itself change anything, or fear ?

I imagine lots of NRA members are also practising christians and incidents like this should give them food for thought. There are different ways of trying to ensure the 6th commandment, Thou shalt not kill, is enforced. Changing the gun laws is one of them.
 
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I've never understood atheist who start questioning, confront or even get hostile towards people about using "thoughts and prayers", "God bless" or whatever other innocuous phrases Christians or whomever might use. I consider myself an atheist, but if I'm invited to a wedding, a baptism or if I'm attending a funeral, and it takes place in a church, I join the rest during prayers because that shit isn't about me. Refusing to respect others religious beliefs isn't you being an atheist, that's just you being an asshole.

That being said, I agree with the general point that thoughts and prayers offered by the GOP, the NRA and their representatives are completely worthless. They are nothing more than empty platitudes, backed by a complete unwillingness to actually do anything to prevent tragedies like this one from occurring in the future. Offering thoughts and prayers costs nothing, and achieves nothing. If I'd lost someone in a shooting, I'd be fecking insulted if one of these people, who through their inaction allow shit like this to keep happening, offered me their thoughts and prayers.
 
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fishfingers15 said:
Let me expand a bit further. Say if I have terminal cancer and my days are numbered, I would not pray for cure of cancer but I'd pray for eternal life next. If I'm caught in a Las Vegas style shooting with a gunman killing people at a distance, I may pray for my safety, but if I see the bullet traveling towards me, I won't pray for a magical iron shield to appear suddenly. I'd either run or I'd be dead. Does it make sense? Then again, religion never made sense, but it was always a leap of faith.
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Yep. And the politicians are praying for a magical iron shield.
 
Halftrack said:
I've never understood atheist who start questioning, confront or even get hostile towards people about using "thoughts and prayers", "God bless" or whatever other innocuous phrases Christians or whomever might use. I consider myself an atheist, but if I'm invited to a wedding, a baptism or if I'm attending a funeral, and it takes place in a church, I join the rest during prayers because that shit isn't about me. Refusing to respect others religious beliefs isn't you being an atheist, that's just you being an asshole.

That being said, I agree with the general point that thoughts and prayers offered by the GOP, the NRA and their representatives are completely worthless. They are nothing more than empty platitudes, backed by a complete unwillingness to actually do anything to prevent tragedies like this one from occurring in the future. Offering thoughts and prayers costs nothing, and achieves nothing. If I'd lost someone in a shooting, I'd be fecking insulted if one of these people, who through their inaction allow shit like this to keep happening, offered me their thoughts and prayers.
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I think you've answered the question in your post. It's because it's a hypocritical platitudes. In Islam there's a saying that if you see something wrong the best thing to do is to change it with your own hand, the second best and the third best is to at least believe it is wrong and keep quite while praying on it and this is 'the weakest of faith'. Now this is Islam but I'm sure Christiniaty has similar sayings.

Praying for 'god's help' while profiteering from gun prolification or merely supporting gun prolification is in itself hypocritical because you are part of the problem. It's almost like Bernard Matthews praying for the plight of the Turkeys.
 
WackyWengerWorld said:
I think you've answered the question in your post. It's because it's a hypocritical platitudes. In Islam there's a saying that if you see something wrong the best thing to do is to change it with your own hand, the second best and the third best is to at least believe it is wrong and keep quite while praying on it and this is 'the weakest of faith'. Now this is Islam but I'm sure Christiniaty has similar sayings.

Praying for 'god's help' while profiteering from gun prolification or merely supporting gun prolification is in itself hypocritical because you are part of the problem. It's almost like Bernard Matthews praying for the plight of the Turkeys.
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Read the bible a lot as a kid, plus 3 years of Christian studies at school...

James speaks of the people who offer blessings and prayers to destitute folk without offering food and clothing and shelter. The gospels are full of Jesus railing against the Pharisees who made it a point of duty to offer their prayers in public, so that everyone could see how pious they are. In fact, his express instruction is to go into your closet, shut the door, and pray in secret.

I think more is to be expected from congressmen who offer prayers and support yet do their very best to prolong this issue, but on a more general note, it doesn't hurt if you ask yourself why you're letting everyone know you're sending prayers up for some folk. I'd bet a good amount of those folk don't even actually pray, but typing "prayers up" is so convenient.
 
adexkola said:
Read the bible a lot as a kid, plus 3 years of Christian studies at school...

James speaks of the people who offer blessings and prayers to destitute folk without offering food and clothing and shelter. The gospels are full of Jesus railing against the Pharisees who made it a point of duty to offer their prayers in public, so that everyone could see how pious they are. In fact, his express instruction is to go into your closet, shut the door, and pray in secret.

I think more is to be expected from congressmen who offer prayers and support yet do their very best to prolong this issue, but on a more general note, it doesn't hurt if you ask yourself why you're letting everyone know you're sending prayers up for some folk. I'd bet a good amount of those folk don't even actually pray, but typing "prayers up" is so convenient.
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That's a very good post, adexkola and we've had that Gospel reading very recently in church.
 
adexkola said:
Read the bible a lot as a kid, plus 3 years of Christian studies at school...

James speaks of the people who offer blessings and prayers to destitute folk without offering food and clothing and shelter. The gospels are full of Jesus railing against the Pharisees who made it a point of duty to offer their prayers in public, so that everyone could see how pious they are. In fact, his express instruction is to go into your closet, shut the door, and pray in secret.

I think more is to be expected from congressmen who offer prayers and support yet do their very best to prolong this issue, but on a more general note, it doesn't hurt if you ask yourself why you're letting everyone know you're sending prayers up for some folk. I'd bet a good amount of those folk don't even actually pray, but typing "prayers up" is so convenient.
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Pretty much bang on. And ironically many of those same people will rail against "virtue signalling" on the left.
 
All the prayers by all the Politicians over the victims of gun violence has accomplished nothing towards ending gun violence. So they have been totally useless in actually doing anything that the politicians are supposed to do.
 
fishfingers15 said:
From my personal experience, I have found prayers quite useful. Obviously, when you say it is 100% useless, you mean that it is useless to you. To each their own, I suppose? I'm not suggesting that prayer shouldn't be questioned here, just saying the reaction to lampooning prayers is from religious people is just as reasonable as atheists/agnostics questioning it.
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Therein lay the conundrum for me - prayer is random, and seemingly quite selfish when believing prayer works for you (not you but you in general).

Tell the child repeatedly beaten by his father despite his prayers that prayer works.

Tell the woman raped and battered by her spouse despite her prayers that prayer works.
 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...mestic-violence-is-a-national-security-issue/

http://time.com/5012632/texas-church-shooting-domestic-violence/

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...ass-shootings-have-roots-in-domestic-violence

I suppose it shouldn't be surprising that there's a strong link between shootings and domestic violence given that scumbags hardly spend all their lives up to this point not being scumbags but even still, probably an angle that doesn't get mentioned as much as it should.
 
adexkola said:
Read the bible a lot as a kid, plus 3 years of Christian studies at school...

James speaks of the people who offer blessings and prayers to destitute folk without offering food and clothing and shelter. The gospels are full of Jesus railing against the Pharisees who made it a point of duty to offer their prayers in public, so that everyone could see how pious they are. In fact, his express instruction is to go into your closet, shut the door, and pray in secret.

I think more is to be expected from congressmen who offer prayers and support yet do their very best to prolong this issue, but on a more general note, it doesn't hurt if you ask yourself why you're letting everyone know you're sending prayers up for some folk. I'd bet a good amount of those folk don't even actually pray, but typing "prayers up" is so convenient.
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Very good post and totally agree. Pray as long as you want, but 'praying' in public while being part of the problem is closer to preying than praying.

Thing is that the majority of people who vote GOP are actually quite pro guns (and Jesus), so giving lip service and preventing any solution to the problem actually helps these people to get elected.
 
We need less of this and more of the Alexandria, VA type of incidents to see any changes in gun laws. Until then, it's just another day in the United States.
 
sullydnl said:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...mestic-violence-is-a-national-security-issue/

I suppose it shouldn't be surprising that there's a strong link between shootings and domestic violence given that scumbags hardly spend all their lives up to this point not being scumbags but even still, probably an angle that doesn't get mentioned as much as it should.
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I guess it's a fair point but it's kind of stating the bleeding obvious. People with a history of violence more likely to be violent in the future. The main reason she seems to be able to give it a domestic violence spin is because homicide is the fifth leading cause of death for women ages 18 to 44. Well it's the third highest cause for men of the same age and it goes without saying that the absolute number of men being killed is on a whole other level to the absolute number of women being killed. So if you're looking to get the most bang for your buck in terms of prevention, the focus should really be on violence against men.

Of course, we all know that either approach is pissing in the wind so long as people keep ignoring the real driver here. Easy access to guns.
 
Penna said:
Prayer won't ever make sense to atheists, but it makes a lot of sense to believers.
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Gonna try to be careful, since religion easily have people emotional, and more so with a awful case like this, responding to you as you're one of the people on here who knows me to care despite my way of portraying my views.

The closest label I've found for myself is nihilist, but even with my "nothing matters in the bigger picture" view of things I can accept that people find comfort or something else in prayer and religion. It doesn't have to make sense for me to accept it as part of their beliefs or actions, as long as their beliefs don't bother me, it's fine.
(also there is some self-reflection when it does in case I find myself being easily bothered).
If people can practice Islam, Christianity, Hinduism or whatever without harming others, there is no reason to be bothered or to bother them about it.

There is likely a few people who take issue in prayers, but to me, and most in here by what i can gather, the issue is more down to people who, as others have explained, use prayers as a thing to hide behind when there is a discussion to be had. If they genuinely wanted to have the conversation but not as a immediate emotional reaction to a incident, they should set a date where things have settled where they properly discuss the issues and come up with ways to improve society. People get frustrated and lash out against prayer because some us it as a function of avoiding a conversation or addressing policies, corruption or whatever it may be, so if they aren't up for discussing it before prayers, people feel they need to push prayers out of the way to force the discussion. Those comments should however purely be put on the politicians that are in the position to make changes, like Paul Ryan who time and time again has avoided discussions by saying "now is not the time", or president Trump saying "it's a mental issue, not a gun issue", and not the people who send their prayers over the internet/tv or just do so in the private of their own home or in their communities of faith.
 
sullydnl said:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...mestic-violence-is-a-national-security-issue/

http://time.com/5012632/texas-church-shooting-domestic-violence/

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...ass-shootings-have-roots-in-domestic-violence

I suppose it shouldn't be surprising that there's a strong link between shootings and domestic violence given that scumbags hardly spend all their lives up to this point not being scumbags but even still, probably an angle that doesn't get mentioned as much as it should.
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"...ass-shootings-have-roots-in-domestic-violence"

That's how that 3rd link shows up. Who knew that was a thing?
 
Guardian said:
Speaking at a news conference in South Korea on Tuesday where he was asked about “extreme vetting” for gun purchases, President Trump said: “If you did what you’re suggesting, there would have been no difference three days ago and you might not have had that very brave person who happens to have a gun or a rifle in his trunk.”

As he did following last month’s Las Vegas massacre of 58 people, Trump pushed back against the question, calling it a “situation that probably shouldn’t be discussed too much” and noted that he was “in the heart of South Korea”.
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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ing-tougher-gun-laws-would-not-have-prevented
 
Penna said:
Prayer won't ever make sense to atheists, but it makes a lot of sense to believers.
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As someone who subscribes to the law of attraction and focus determining reality, I can see how praying correlates with that and possibly having a positive effect.
 
adexkola said:
Read the bible a lot as a kid, plus 3 years of Christian studies at school...

James speaks of the people who offer blessings and prayers to destitute folk without offering food and clothing and shelter. The gospels are full of Jesus railing against the Pharisees who made it a point of duty to offer their prayers in public, so that everyone could see how pious they are. In fact, his express instruction is to go into your closet, shut the door, and pray in secret.

I think more is to be expected from congressmen who offer prayers and support yet do their very best to prolong this issue, but on a more general note, it doesn't hurt if you ask yourself why you're letting everyone know you're sending prayers up for some folk. I'd bet a good amount of those folk don't even actually pray, but typing "prayers up" is so convenient.
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From an Agnostic: great post, Adexkola!
 
Achilles McCool said:
That's a terrible thing to say!

We need less shootings. Full stop!
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What's terrible about what I said? People elect the politicians, and these same politicians are fecking with peoples lives just so that they can pander to to a lobby group. Simple mass shootings are not going to change any gun laws, hence no less shootings.
 
"Extreme vetting would not have prevented" the Texas shooting (says Trump while in South Korea)

South Korean gun deaths per 100,000 with "extreme vetting" - 0.08
South Korean guns owned per 100 people - 1.1

American gun deaths per 100,000 without "extreme vetting" - 10.54
American guns owned per 100 people - 112

The irony.
 
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