Yep.
Would you take Pogba back?
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State of this post! So much wrong with it I don't know where to start.
Fergie picked the team. His attitude and performances at that period didn't deserve a call up to the first team. Not progressing as quickly as you want is something 99% of footballers have to deal with. Its actually just life really...
He's a youngster who listened to his agent over the greatest manager of all time. A deal with Juve was arranged long before his actual transfer, He strung the club along for a long while before he announced he was fecking off.
He was shooting rap videos when his time would have been better served focussing on his own performance's with us in the reserves.
I honestly don't know how people could possibly want someone of that ilk back here. Ability isn't the be all and end all when it comes to making a successful career. Its about much much more.
Decotron there's no point making this argument. It's a completely pointless debate because it never gets us anywhere. I don't know how much reserve football the people who claim he moved for first team football watch, but if they had been watching regular reserve football then they wouldn't really be able to argue that Pogba deserved to get the chances at the time.
He progressed quickly enough and Juventus recognized that. He's playing well there now whereas at us he would have got very few games in all likelihood. I really don't want to cite THAT Blackburn game again but you'll force me I'm afraid.
At the time I probably would have agreed with you on this principled stand - but if the rumours that we actually offered more money to Pogba than Juventus are true... either way, we made a mistake here, no shame in admitting that.
Yeah "that" Blackburn game that everyone keeps bloody citing. You do remember Pogba's nervous performances in the carling cup right? If Pogba had played that game and done poorly then everyone would have wanted SAF's head on a spike for starting Pogba and his confidence would have been shattered.
We could not have given him the game time Juve did. Ok, there was that one game. But Pogba plays Carrick's position, not Cleverley's. Are you going to drop Carrick?
It's not really rocket science to have a peek at the big clubs academies and identify some of the players. I mean it wasn't a world class piece of scouting.
Plus I thought Rafa was good in that game to be honest. Closed space and made us look like we had bite in midfield. Would give him another shot there if we needed to.
Of course there is a point. It stops history being rewritten.
What I said above is exactly what people here who do watch the reserves felt and still maintain. Mujac is one that springs to mind...
Again ability isn't everything. If he was taking the piss and not focusing but yet still progressing through the ranks that sends a very bad message to the rest of our young players. United have always been old school is that respect.
Its unfortunate what happened. His form with Juve makes it a bitter pill to swallow but it wasn't to be.
HE made the decision long before Rafael so cruelly stole his god given position in our midfield.
Yeah the point I was making is that none of these people that make their arguments get it. Pogba used to stroll through reserve matches like it was a chore to be there yet expected to be in the first team without excelling and proving himself at reserve level.
Its easy to just say Juve gave him the chances without actually taking into account anything that actually went on whilst he was at united.
I was talking about his comparison to Tevez
We don't know when he made the decision. His cousin is a musician with decent popularity from London and also a United fan, he says there is more to the story without going into specific detail. We can only speculate really. Despite not being spectacular for the reserves the club knew how good he was, he and Morrison had been heralded for years. I think some people believe that he deserved a run out, there wasn't a stand out performer in the senior midfield keeping him out. He was told he would be part of the first team squad for that season (iirc) and he was used in reserves PLUS we brought back Scholes. If I was a young player that would dishearten me and he knew he had plenty of other offers also. It is no surprise he floated along. If he had played more he would still be here imo...
I think it is just the fact we had him and let him go that fans can't get over, he is proving to have been worth all the fuss. Juve is the perfect place for him though...
Shows how far we have sunk in terms of the expectations we have of our central midfielders. Whatever our opinions are in the Pogba case, Rafael is not a CM, never will be and isn't good there.
Not really, since Fletch went down we've not really had someone putting genuine defensive pressure on opposition midfielders. Plus you bolded the wrong bit. As a defender he knew how to close space and stay tight to his man and had plenty of engine to do so. It's the one spot we can afford to spend ~3m on an engine player to keep things tight behind Carrick and in front of the defence if we need to tighten it up.
So was I, Pogba is 20, an adult. Tevez was 23 when he was with us and started being a dick and playing the crowd off against Fergie.
Pogba was an arrogant twunt who thought himself too good to try for our reserves and as a result never won his first team slot. He might be a good player but that isn't the attitude for this club.
He was a young player who was confident in his abilities and thought he deserved a bigger chance/role in the first team sqaud. A couple of games in the League cup does not cut it. He is clearly too good for our reserves so he was right wasn't he?
It is not comparable to Tevez in any way other than the fact they both left. He has not acted any differently than most young players these days. Things have worked out well for him I must say...
Do you know nothing about the club's ethos?
Have a little read of Gary Neville's biography and particularly the bit about him spending an hour after training practising his long throws against a wall at The Cliff (and how everyone thought he was mental until he started to get picked by Fergie.... and the rest of the class of 92 joined him for that extra hour when they realised where it was getting him). You'll get to understand what sort of attitude you need to succeed at this club.
Sulking and generally not trying particularly hard (or playing particularly well) for the reserve team is no fast track to first team football no matter how talented you might think you are. Neither is kicking up a fuss because the manager over looked you for these reasons and chose to play two First Team players (with over 200 Premier League games between them) in what you consider your place, despite not having made your Premiership Debut.
So basically, is the new rule now that youngsters decide when they should be in the first team of Manchester United?
When a youngster decides they're ready for our first team, they can just stop putting in any effort for the reserves?
You're basically saying that youngsters should now be deciding when they're in the first team and feck the reserves off.
He was right though, playing for our reserves was a waste of his time he was way past that level and should have been given more chances in and around the first team. 6 months after leaving our reserves he found himself starting regularly for Juventus and playing for the French national side...that's not a coincidence. We fecked up by not giving him a chance, even SAF knows this because almost in a panic towards the end of the season he was more involved to try and convince him to stay.
He's moved on and bettered himself while we are still in need of at least 1 quality midfielder, no doubt is agent is a cnut but if he had been given playing time I dont think we would have had any problems.
People forget how Macheda earned his premier league debut. He was regularly scoring and impressing in reserves, when Fergie went to watch him he scored a hattrick which earned him his call up to the first team. He was rewarded for hard work.
Now lets compare this with Pogba who just walked along the pitch like he was Eric Cantona then you see the difference in why he didn't get the first team chances that he wanted.
If he had taken control of the Reserve games and pushed himself in the way that Januzaj does every game then he would have got the first team chances.
Now lets compare this with Pogba who just walked along the pitch like he was Eric Cantona then you see the difference in why he didn't get the first team chances that he wanted.
If he had taken control of the Reserve games and pushed himself in the way that Januzaj does every game then he would have got the first team chances.
So basically, is the new rule now that youngsters decide when they should be in the first team of Manchester United?
When a youngster decides they're ready for our first team, they can just stop putting in any effort for the reserves?
You're basically saying that youngsters should now be deciding when they're in the first team and feck the reserves off.
No i'm not, i'm saying sense should be used. He has first team talent and ability and was playing reserve football....
He was 18 and in his first proper reserve year, the year before that he was still playing academy football. If he had the first team talent then he should have been excelling in reserves and standing out head and shoulders above the rest of the midfielders shouldn't he? He should have put in the hard work to show the boss what he's missing out on shouldn't he?
I mean ffs every time I watched the reserves he was being outshone by Petrucci, if he can't even play like the best midfielder in the reserves then how the hell does he expect to play in the first team? He didn't want it enough.
Don't get carried away. We are one of the biggest clubs in the world to succeed here you need to be a GOOD footballer first and foremost. Players don't become quality professionals by accident, just because everyone doesn't chose to have the work ethos written into print does not mean it does not exist. He was promised a first team squad place at the start of the season and he was used in the reserves and barely integrated. Fergie tried to play it smart by giving him a few appearance here and there, if he really wanted to prove his point Pogba should not have sniffed the first team at all. But clearly Fergie knew how good he was and so did Pogba. He has gone on to better things, but if we keep getting rid of players who are not willing to bow down and lick the boots of the manager we will have a tiny squad soon enough.
Football is a job to these guys, it may mean more to us but generally in any job your aim is to get as much job satisfaction as you can. In terms of football that would be playing as much as physically possible, winning trophies and getting payed a lot. The fact he turned down MORE money to go to Juve shows it was ALL about the football, he has justified his decision so far.
Fans here are annoyed that he took hold of his own destiny, that he didn't go all out to show he deserved the shirt. He wasn't given incentive enough to do so imo. I just don't think letting quality youngsters go to prove a point makes sense after all the time spent investing in them..
Unless he underwent staggering improvement between leaving us and joining Juve, his performances so far suggest he was good enough. The boss knew how good he was, hence the attempts to give him some playing time to keep him happy. The boy was confident he could play more elsewhere and he was right. You can bang on that he didn't shine for the reserves but he is right now one of the best young midfielders in the world. That talent did come out of nowhere...
When it comes to players from the continent United is not the be all and end all like it would be for a British lad. All that Scholes, Giggs, Neville stuff won't grip them the same away. I assume he was unhappy here and that transferred to his performances on the pitch.
You're still not getting it Jaffy are you. It doesn't Matter how good he's gone on to be. A place in our first team is earned not demanded, you don't make demands at 18 without putting in the work and effort.
The only hunger he was showing was through his agent.
The only hunger he was showing was through his agent.
Pogba is a box to box midfielder. He would have been brilliant in Cleverley's position and he is already a better player than Cleverley.
His performances in reserves has been exaggerated. I remember that at that time people were crying here to see him, but after he left there were voices who started saying that he wasn't playing good at reserves and after a year everybody seems to think that he was rubbish when he played for reserves. The point is that this is not true.
The other point that people who don't want to admit that United made ever a mistake are people who talk about that game in Carling Cup when Pogba didn't look good. Again is only half of truth, Pogba didn't look good because we were playing with 10 players and he has to play as a CB.
Firstly no they haven't been exaggerated. Yes I used to want him to play in the fist team as much as everyone else, but he was strolling around half arsed in the reserve matches. Do you watch them regularly?
And secondly that's not true as well, he had 2 opportunities in the carling cup and looked as equally nervous in both. Compare that to Morrison who played with full confidence and you notice the difference. In those games Pogba didn't look like a man who was quite ready.
It was the coaching team's jobs to ascertain whether Pogba was ready to play a bigger part with the first team at that age. They decided he wasn't, he felt he was. Turns out he was right, and had his contract expiring which allowed him to leave. Yes, he should have been more patient, but he didn't need to be when Juventus were promising him a regular role. I'd gladly take him back, though I'm not sure he will be willing to come back. I see a Verratti-Pogba swap couple of years down the line.
I agree with you here. Everyone keeps citing that he's got a terrible attitude and that playing time has to be earned, but he's clearly shown enough to be picked regularly for Juventus regularly and had a very good season there.
People also seem determined to call him a mercenary and money grabber because he left when it's reported we were willing to offer him as much money. The fact is that he's probably made a better move for his career in the end by leaving.
Admittedly it's easy to look back with hindsight, but it's clear that Pogba is a top talent and while he shouldn't have been waltzing into our first team, he can't be blamed for leaving when he saw a winger and right back played out of position ahead of him.
I gather you haven't actually watched him for Juve, then? He plays Pirlo's role, and if anything he moves about even less. Seeing as his success at Juventus is the reason we're having this discussion, it only seems fair to consider his position there as his true position.
I have watched Juventus more than any other team bar United this season. Pogba was a backup to any of Juventus three main midfielders, meaning that he played in any position required on midfield. When he played in Pirlo's position was because Pirlo wasn't playing. Generally he played more forward though and usually when he played with Marchisio and Vidal while he was the deepest midfielder, Marchisio played more deeper than he usually plays. Pogba's best position is box to box, not a defensive midfielder/deep lying playmaker.
So much hostility towards Pogba on here, it's pretty sad really. His departure from the club left a bit of a bad taste but United can hardly complain considering the questionable way in which we poached him from Le Havre. He stood up to Ferguson and that sealed his fate really, but at least he had the balls to do it. His move to Juventus has been a big success for him and has led to international appearances and a boom in his development. Whatever the circumstances of his time at United his decision has been completely vindicated, nobody can argue that. He has never openly disrespected Manchester United as far as I'm aware. There is a lot of open arrogance from United supporters over the Pogba affair, talk of Serie A being some shitarse league and Juventus being "a step down." Pogba is an "arrogant cnut" etc. etc.
That is utter conceited bollocks. The truth is Juventus are a huge club with a glittering history (we all know the bad side) and they have a team full of terrific footballers. They are easily on the level United are at, won their respective league at a canter and progressed further in the Champions League last year, losing to an awesome Bayern side. Pogba has flourished under a progressive coach and next to talented teammates. Who wouldn't learn great things from Andrea Pirlo? He never had that at United, the chance to play games consistantly with Scholes and Giggs....just a handful of token appearances in dead rubber games. I'm not sure he ever had a run of tour games like Januzaj has.
I keep hearing how Pogba wasn't ready because he didn't up his game in the reserves. The reserve system in this country is a pile of shit, it's first team football in competitive leagues that improve young players. Foreign coaches like Wenger have long bemoaned the uncompetitive nature of the reserve leagues, pushing for their respective teams to be entered into the Football League. The fact is Pogba was ready for first team football, and more so he could have made an impact. You don't suddenly go from being not ready, to a few months later stringing together some top performances for an elite European side. Whether he would have got more time for United last season is debatable, but the sad fact is he was offered 7 substitute appearances in two seasons. For fecking hells sake Bebe and Obertan had more game time in the equivalent period, just baffling. Everyone refers to the Blackburn game at Old Trafford but that was just the icing on the cake.....United were having issues in midfield since the start of that particular season. Pogba could have had games up to Christmas and he never did, despite Ferguson's proclaimation that he needed to play the boy or risk losing him.
In answer to the question no I would not have him back. It's best to look forward and concentrate on what we have.....Nick Powell needs to be developed accordingly and he could be a potential star. Pogba should not have been lost is the simple fact, but United, and in particular Ferguson have a certain way of operating when it comes to the development of young players. Pogba by his own admission was impatient to play, and his extreme outward self-assuredness perhaps didn't rest well with the manager. Who knows. I think both parties contributed to the effect. That's my two bob anyway.
That is utter conceited bollocks. The truth is Juventus are a huge club with a glittering history (we all know the bad side) and they have a team full of terrific footballers. They are easily on the level United are at, won their respective league at a canter and progressed further in the Champions League last year, losing to an awesome Bayern side. Pogba has flourished under a progressive coach and next to talented teammates. Who wouldn't learn great things from Andrea Pirlo? He never had that at United, the chance to play games consistantly with Scholes and Giggs....just a handful of token appearances in dead rubber games. I'm not sure he ever had a run of tour games like Januzaj has.
I keep hearing how Pogba wasn't ready because he didn't up his game in the reserves. The reserve system in this country is a pile of shit, it's first team football in competitive leagues that improve young players. Foreign coaches like Wenger have long bemoaned the uncompetitive nature of the reserve leagues, pushing for their respective teams to be entered into the Football League. The fact is Pogba was ready for first team football, and more so he could have made an impact. You don't suddenly go from being not ready, to a few months later stringing together some top performances for an elite European side. Whether he would have got more time for United last season is debatable, but the sad fact is he was offered 7 substitute appearances in two seasons. For fecking hells sake Bebe and Obertan had more game time in the equivalent period, just baffling. Everyone refers to the Blackburn game at Old Trafford but that was just the icing on the cake.....United were having issues in midfield since the start of that particular season. Pogba could have had games up to Christmas and he never did, despite Ferguson's proclaimation that he needed to play the boy or risk losing him.
In answer to the question no I would not have him back. It's best to look forward and concentrate on what we have.....Nick Powell needs to be developed accordingly and he could be a potential star. Pogba should not have been lost is the simple fact, but United, and in particular Ferguson have a certain way of operating when it comes to the development of young players. Pogba by his own admission was impatient to play, and his extreme outward self-assuredness perhaps didn't rest well with the manager. Who knows. I think both parties contributed to the effect. That's my two bob anyway.
No he was good enough to play more than he did at the time is my point. He has shown that since. I didn't watch the reverse games but from what Revan says it is being exaggerated. I fully understand your point about bleeding for the honour of wearing the shirt, but seriously in this day and age when players are stars by 18..... We need to be realistic.
From his point of view 'I know i'm, good enough the club knows I'm good enough but they continue to play me in reserves despite the lack of quality in midfield'. He then get's run outs in the Carling cup to show he is being integrated into the senior squad, then bringing Scholes back. I don't think it is unfair for him after all that to then reconsider his long-term future here. The boy just wanted to play he felt he deserved and he has been PROVEN RIGHT. If he went to Juve and looked poor/out of his depth you would have an argument but he clearly had the talent.
What you wanted was for him to go all out to PROVE himself further. There is a reason he and Morrison were so praised.
To think Morrison was supposedly even better....
Yes they have. He hasn't been great, but neither shit. In the end he was still one of our best reserve players and by far the most talented (some would say that Morrison was more talented but I call that bollocks).
Pogba played nervously on that game we got eliminated from CC. I told the reasons why. All other things like he was shit, weren't ready etc are myths by people who don't want to blame the club for doing a mistake.
I agree he is not a defensive midfielder at his best. He has a bit of that Patrick Viera in him. The frame the composure, the class on the ball. He would be great beside Carrick imo. Only 20...
So you've acknowledged that most of the time he played as the deepest midfielder, but you still don't think the deepest position is his best.
For me the reasoning is simple. For us, he was seen as a box-to-box midfielder, and didn't get into the first team. For Juve, he's been seen as a deep-lying midfielder and has played loads, and done very well. He's a deep-lying midfielder. As good as he is, he's never had the mobility or energetic style to complement Carrick. Like Carrick, he prefers to be a fairly static passing hub, with more energetic midfielders like Marchisio and Vidal around him.
Bear in mind there's a difference between 'deep-lying' and 'defensive'. In that Juve three, the Pirlo role is not really defensive. The players ahead of him - Marchisio and Vidal - do much more defending. But he is nonetheless the deepest player.
He was promised a first team squad place at the start of the season and he was used in the reserves and barely integrated. Fergie tried to play it smart by giving him a few appearance here and there, if he really wanted to prove his point Pogba should not have sniffed the first team at all. But clearly Fergie knew how good he was and so did Pogba. He has gone on to better things, but if we keep getting rid of players who are not willing to bow down and lick the boots of the manager we will have a tiny squad soon enough.
Football is a job to these guys, it may mean more to us but generally in any job your aim is to get as much job satisfaction as you can. In terms of football that would be playing as much as physically possible, winning trophies and getting payed a lot. The fact he turned down MORE money to go to Juve shows it was ALL about the football, he has justified his decision so far.
Fans here are annoyed that he took hold of his own destiny, that he didn't go all out to show he deserved the shirt. He wasn't given incentive enough to do so imo. I just don't think letting quality youngsters go to prove a point makes sense after all the time spent investing in them..
So what do you think Fergie's reasons were for not playing this prodigious young midfielder against Blackburn despite promising him first team football and clearly knowing just how good he was?
He was a lazy fecker playing for the reserves and that doesn't get you a first team call up. Simple as that. Has he got talent? Of course he has, the only shame is that he didn't think he had to try harder to make it here.
He'll feck Juve around at some point and get a move to another club and he'll feck them around too. He's done it with two clubs already.
As for turning down more money to go to Juve, that is bollocks. Here's a direct quote from Pogba: "He obviously thought I didn't deserve the contract I asked for, and didn't put me in the team even though he had no midfield players. It was his choice."
We wouldn't pay him what he wanted. Simple.
I think he enjoyed it most in Pirlo's deep-lying role though. That's probably the position he is looking to claim once the great man calls it a day. I agree he is definitely an all-rounder and to be honest he could play in any number of roles in midfield. Box-to-box, deep playmaker, attacking midfielder/advanced playmaker. He is that good.
No. When he replaced Pirlo he played as the deepest midfielder (Pirlo position). When he replaced Vidal or Marchisio he didn't played as the deepest midfielder. I think his best games were when he replaced Marchisio or Vidal (playing with Pirlo), though he was absolutely excellent when he came as a sub for Pirlo in that game against Napoli.
How many times have you watched him this year? Have you watched him with Pirlo? He is very energetic he gets around the pitch very well. He is not naturally the same type of players as Carrick/Pirlo/Busquets though he can play that role. He is more mobile than all three he has strength, composure and a great long shot, he is a good tackler and passer also. He has so many qualities he could be a deep lying playmaker later on his career but he would be best as a box to box midfielder. That way he gets to use his vast array of skills.
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