Disrespect maybe the wrong word. I disagree that we're stronger than the 12/13 squad though. Depth maybe, first 11 quality, not in my opinion.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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Done with this level of arguing. I have listed the reasons why some Utd fans want him sacked. By the way, he also bottled it when it mattered most in the cups.
3 matches lost. Meanwhile, Pochettino has lost 0.
Stat's dont lie!
There will be an element of that sure. But I'm sure some players like Rooney would have been top wherever they went and we don't have his level in this squad (Bruno if he can keep it up).
Rooney was over the hill, Ferguson even said the decision to keep or ditch him would be the next manager's problem. There wasn't a lot of pleasure at seeing him served with a new 5 year deal by Moyes at the time. Evra might have done a job, Rio was definitely over the hill, Vidic was getting on, Valencia too. There was almost no midfield on top (compared to our squad now that is).
I wasn't particularly referring to 12/13 there. Carrick was better than anything we have now in midfield. Defence was on it's last legs true, but our current one gets dogs abuse on here.
I love trophies and want us to win one this season but last season our most important game was against Leicester and we won and finished 3rd. Would I have taken a 6th place finish and FA cup, No i wouldn't.
It does but I think a big part of that is still because we don't have good defensive coaching. The rookie errors are there for all to see and it's more problems in the system as a unit than just individual mistakes. E.g. the Istanbul 10 up for the corner, or chronic full backs being caught to narrow and missing a man behind them on a cross, etc.
So you are questioning that I didn’t know through Fergie’s whole tenor that we didn’t finish third at any time in those season but yet I can highlight moments from those seasons?
I was highlighting our current inconsistencies in league finishes which was true back then.
We aren’t competing because this manager doesn’t have a clue how to win a premier league title he’s not good enough to even compete. But if he does it will hand and heart be the greatest achievement of all time. It would be like Dan James breaking Thierry Henry’s goals and assist record for a single premier league season.
But I’m done with criticising him for today. I’ll enjoy my afternoon as we for today atleast are in a title race and long may it continue.
He's been a superb at building the squad, at promoting from the reserves, at resetting the mentality of the players and at talent-spotting youth from around the world. You could compare him positively to anyone else in the world on those scores.
Where he's been suspect is at coaching the players into defensive and attacking patterns.
LvG and Mourinho also had some positive moments at Old Trafford. But neither could substantially change the direction of the club away from Mercenary FC. Ole, on the other hand, is doing exactly that and is doing it really well. Whilst I can understand the desire to replace him for the sake of getting a better coached team, I wouldn't want to lose all the good that he brings to United at the same time.
For all those criticising Ole for relying on his team's individual brilliance to win matches, that's because he's been able to get those individuals into the club and keep them confident. It's actually a reason to keep him at the club, if anything.
It's also easy to forget, but Fergie stopped leading training sessions for the last decade of his time here. He delegated that duty to his assistants. So there's definitely a precedent for solving that one of Ole's problems.
So if we're gong to replace him as head coach, I'd keep him in a DoF type role. And If we're going to keep him as manager, I'd bring in some better assistants to coach under him. Either way, I'm not averse to getting somebody else in. But we've been misled too many times to have the luxury of throwing away the baby with the bathwater.
Where he's been suspect is at coaching the players into defensive and attacking patterns.
LvG and Mourinho also had some positive moments at Old Trafford. But neither could substantially change the direction of the club away from Mercenary FC. Ole, on the other hand, is doing exactly that and is doing it really well. Whilst I can understand the desire to replace him for the sake of getting a better coached team, I wouldn't want to lose all the good that he brings to United at the same time.
For all those criticising Ole for relying on his team's individual brilliance to win matches, that's because he's been able to get those individuals into the club and keep them confident. It's actually a reason to keep him at the club, if anything.
It's also easy to forget, but Fergie stopped leading training sessions for the last decade of his time here. He delegated that duty to his assistants. So there's definitely a precedent for solving that one of Ole's problems.
So if we're gong to replace him as head coach, I'd keep him in a DoF type role. And If we're going to keep him as manager, I'd bring in some better assistants to coach under him. Either way, I'm not averse to getting somebody else in. But we've been misled too many times to have the luxury of throwing away the baby with the bathwater.
I don't agree that the Instanbul goal is coaching neither is missing a man on a cross etc. It's basic stuff of just being switched on. You don't make it to this level if you have to be told how to do that kind of stuff during the week in training. The mentality of making sure concentration level is right could be linked to management however.
But you learn about being switched on by being drilled in coaching, so that chronic defensive errors as a unit don't become a habit.
Ole did well in many areas, but he has not done anywhere near a good enough job defensively. I think we probably should have let in 2 or 3 goals before we switched on against West Ham. If Antonio played then we probably would have been. Brighton is another example, we deserved to be thrashed. Then yep Istanbul, and the return fixture too they created an unnecessary amount of chances. It's a bit too frequent for my liking.
What kind of reasoning -is that ? Ferguson should have been sacked several times as United-manager if you look at it that way. The form we showed in the winter of 89/90 is probably the worst of any United-manager post 1946.
We performeed poorly in september-november 2019, but is that really relevant today ?
I think this is how the majority feel about Ole's reign thus far. He's excelled in every department bar the more intricate tactical side of the game, which is why I hope he stays with the club in some regard if/when he gets sacked.
He's a decent manager, truth be told, but his tactical deficiances hold him back. He'll undoubtedly improve in that area given time and experience, but not to the extent required to become a top-tier coach.
So just deflecting. Also, abit late for you to start apprising SAF now, given you were his biggest critic on here, despite him winning CL's and doubles and there being nothing at all to criticise! You forget that I know your style of posting for over a decade
Give it a rest, you'll give yourself a stroke.You have zero quantitative or factual evidence to back up your opinion, which is all it is.
And nothing will change because of your opinion, because it's faulty.
So learn to live with the reality that Ole is the most consistent manager in the league on current form.
What does that prove or have to do with the discussion I was having with @devilish ??
Which games during the below run of games do you mean?
Do you mean our last game vs West Ham, where Ole brought on Bruno and Rashford and changed the game?
Or vs PL game from last week vs Southampton when where Ole brought on Canavi and changed the game?
That Fergie doesn’t need to be brought into the discussion, he had some tremendous results before and after, with and without Cantona. And he was one of a kind.
That said, I don’t give a shit if our manager depends on our best player. Zidane doesn’t win 3 CL or even one without Ronaldo, so what? Pep is still searching for a Messi-less Champions League despite spending a gazillion dollars.
@devilish brought up Fergie, I was simply responding to him.
Stop derailing our conversation, if you want take its entirety into context.
Man, you're giving me a headache.
Are you comparing Ole to SAF? Not much to discuss further. Ciao
Lmfao. The Mr. consistently inconsistent. Now go enjoy your top red glasses. And do not forget, expectations are fairly low. It is just top 4. If he does not make it, he will be fired and officially acknowledged as too poor to manage United.
You have zero quantitative or factual evidence to back up your opinion, which is all it is.
And nothing will change because of your opinion, because it's faulty.
So learn to live with the reality that Ole is the most consistent manager in the league on current form.
So just deflecting. Also, abit late for you to start apprising SAF now, given you were his biggest critic on here, despite him winning CL's and doubles and there being nothing at all to criticise! You forget that I know your style of posting for over a decade
So finally there's actually a post which I was tagged in that concerns me. I was getting sick being tagged in @Regulus Arcturus Black posts especially since he was highlighting the same point I was making ie Sir Alex could live without Cantona. I dare to say that we would have never won the CL with Cantona on board but that's an argument for another day.
Sir Alex managed us from 1986 till 2013. During this ridiculously long time there were things I didn't like, others which I did and some which I disagreed with but later on (and with more information provided) proved that he was right given the circumstances he had to work with. My 2 biggest gripes with the man reflect the latter.
A- United's reluctance of investing in the side so they can seriously compete in the CL. In my opinion the CL (and not the league title) is the pinnacle of club football. It turned out that this opinion wasn't shared by the club and their aim was to keep United as the dominant force in the EPL not in Europe. I'd learnt that from an interview done by Edwards AFTER Sir Alex retired. That explained why the club refused to invest that teeny weeny more to keep United competitive in the CL. In my opinion its a big shame as the treble side was 1-2 good player away from at least winning another CL.
B- Sir Alex's refusal in bringing in new blood to replace his ageing side in his last years of reign. In some ways it still Sir Alex's fault (his refusal to deal with super agents) but in others it was the club refusing to invest following the disastrous take over.
However I never placed Sir Alex's man management or tactical acumen in doubt
Because it's his job to make the team look like a side that understands that in order to get to the goal, you need to pass the ball forward. Bruno's presence on the pitch shouldn't be a requirement for McTominay to understand that we won't score goals if we keep passing the ball to Lindelöf every time we get the ball. That's the entire point, it was a good team even without Bruno or Rashford but one that, without Bruno on the pitch, actually wouldn't look out of place in League One (and that's me being generous) in terms of ability to get the ball forward, receive the ball, make runs, intensity and effort. The point is that the bottom level of the team that Ole put out there yesterday should never, ever, ever be as low as we saw during the first half.
Don't you think that it's a managerial issue that two years into his tenure, our team requires Bruno's presence to understand that you need to pass the ball forward and move when you don't have the ball? I understand that players of certain quality raise the level of the team in terms of quality of passes, touches, shots etc, which goes without saying, but the fact that Ole can't tell his players to pass the ball forward unless Bruno is on the pitch says a lot about his coaching ability to me. Rashford also came on and changed the game with his runs, but couldn't Martial or Greenwood have made those runs in the first half? Do you not think that players can be coached into running towards goal? Or do you think that is an intrinsic ability that you either have or don't have, and can never learn during the course of a career?
If “we aren’t competing because this manager doesn’t have a clue” then how do you explain the fact that we are 5 points from the top with a game in hand?
You even say at the end of the post that “atleast are in a title race and long may it continue” which completely
contradicts you saying that we aren’t competing?!?!?
The coaching is really starting to worry me, yesterday the plan was basically have Cavani Martial and Greenwood sit on the shoulder of the defenders and hope for a through ball.
That may work with a team playing a high-line but when a team has 2 deep banks of 4, which a moyes team were clearly going to do why on earth would you set up like that?
And after years of having the same problem we still have no idea how to break down teams playing that to tactic apart from give it to Fernades and hope he can come up with something special.
That may work with a team playing a high-line but when a team has 2 deep banks of 4, which a moyes team were clearly going to do why on earth would you set up like that?
And after years of having the same problem we still have no idea how to break down teams playing that to tactic apart from give it to Fernades and hope he can come up with something special.
We have arguably the best team in the league. We are where we are as it's hard af to not be competing with a team like this. But Ole’s doing a good job of it.
Amen.That's What I've been saying all along.
So you are both wrong. Congrats1
this thread. We struggled against teams who sat back and defended deep because we had very little creativity in the middle. we bought that creativity to address the issue, now people say it doesn’t count because we’re reliant on that creativity I suppose a better manager would’ve coached McTominay into a world class playmaker instead.
Do we all agree that we should be qualifying from our CL group? I mean a loss against RBL, would surely mean that we bottled it, right? Qualifying would rightfully show that Ole is doing a good job in CL, however a loss would certainly mean that we fooked it up magnificently.
You would not need world class passing, if you work and attack as a team. Ole needs Bruno to dictate the game otherwise most of our players are waiting for something to happen. It is a coaching problem.
No excuse to not go through now, absolutely none.
I think we’ll get a result in Germany though.
They are footballers, not Border Collies. Being able to pass to a teammate and and show some effort should be the bare minimum, not something the manager needs to remind you to do during the match
We can speculate about the level of coaching at the club (and lets be real, none of us have a fecking clue) but at the end of the day its up to the players to actually do the job during the match. Bruno and Rashford get the same type of coaching as the rest of the lads, so if they look a level above then its not because of coaching. Right?
Truth is, we still have too many players who are too inconsistent, or just plain average, so they need Bruno to bail them out
so firstly the good. Bruno has been brilliant. Clearly an Ole driven signing too. Board let him down by not getting it done in the previous summer. Telles is probably a backup option, but wasn’t expensive and brings something a bit different so that's ok.
Cavani on deadline day was a mess. if he really wanted him, sign him 2 months earlier. Pretty sure he had no intention of signing him or any other cf until sancho fell through.
then it falls into 2 buckets. Bucket 1: decent players who don’t seem to fit into how we perceive he wants to play: maguire, awb, dvb. They still improve us compared to some of the direness we've had, but they aren't great.
bucket 2: cheap young punts you can’t really blame (or praise?) him for. dan james looking like a poor one, but guys like pellistri may turn out.
There doesn’t seem to be any clear strategy with them. For the 200m odd he’s spent, you'd expect a team starting to form in his vision. There's also the matter of contract renewals which have impacted transfers. (though again, you probably can't blame him entirely) Matter of opinions though isn't it? Some might think Maguire and AWB are wonderfully suited, and that'd alter the overall opinion a lot. Diallo could become the next Messi or bruno could continue his numbers, and you'd again have a different outcome. But as it stands, I don't think he's done enough.
THAT SAID, he's done better than both LVG and Mourinho. The fact he's not been totally wasteful says something, and perhaps we simply lack the structure to properly support signing the players we want/need for our philosophy. So yea, maybe a bit harsh.
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