From today's press conference:
This is our issue...no actual system, no ethos for how we play. Just 'go out and express yourself and we'll see what happens', which worked under Fergie, with top class, highly intelligent players and coaching.
From today's press conference:
This is our issue...no actual system, no ethos for how we play. Just 'go out and express yourself and we'll see what happens', which worked under Fergie, with top class, highly intelligent players and coaching.
I actually said something similar yesterday based on what I've observed on the pitchI'm going to take another shade at Ole and say one reason for our inconsistency is because our style of play is inconsistent. I honestly don't know what style of play to expect to see when we play Istanbul and then Southampton. Are we going to counter attack? Lethargic build up play? Or Quick transitions? I don't know.
Could also be the reason we don't start most games with any urgency because we don't have a consistent style of play we follow in most games and so waiting to see how the opponent plays before knowing whether to take risks
I think they missed the obvious word. “One” I don’t know a single top team who has one style of play. And most of them set their best players up to express their talent. Also, most of them have a game plan and detailed instructions. Don’t know how people think they just put their bots on and go out and play.Whats wrong with managers wanting players to express themselves? You do realise players can express themselves and play in a system?
The problem with fans is that if he lets players express there is issues, when he puts a system playing Pogba in a pivot "Let Pogba play 10"
Cannot win.
That's fair enough. Lets see where we are by year end. These are our league fixtures up to then:
Southampton (a)
West Ham (a)
City (h)
Sheff Utd (a)
Leeds (h)
Leicester (a)
Wolves (h)
If we can get out of our CL group and get a decent points haul out of that lot then we'll be in good shape going forwards
I reckon we will get 12 points from those 21.
3 wins 3 draws and a loss. We are just so inconsistent and if I'm right we will be on 25 points from 45 which is pretty shite.
We bugger up this CL group from here he will surely lose his job.
Very positive outlook.
Already giving up on champs league
No problem. But there's a big difference between allowing the players freedom to express themselves within a structure designed to provide them with proper service, and the free for all chaos that is served up under Ole.Whats wrong with managers wanting players to express themselves? You do realise players can express themselves and play in a system?
The problem with fans is that if he lets players express there is issues, when he puts a system playing Pogba in a pivot "Let Pogba play 10"
Cannot win.
No problem. But there's a big difference between allowing the players freedom to express themselves within a structure designed to provide them with proper service, and the free for all chaos that is served up under Ole.
What happens when ''just go out and express yourselves'' isn't working for the players anymore''? Managers are meant to come up with solutions to help them aren't they?
What excuse did Klopp have first 3-4 years for not winning anything?Can the pro ole guys not see that we are light years away from liverpool in terms of coaching, klopp can handle a bunch of injuries to his most important players and still keep winning and winning, when ole has a few injuries it's excuse after excuse and even with a full strength side he is struggling in all honesty we are never touching any major title with his ole's coaching skills. Maybe the fans have given up and just happy now with us battling to try and squeeze into a champions league place every season from now on.
On the bolded, do you not think the mere fact Ole is capable of making us tick (as he's shown, sometimes for long periods of form) that this in itself is half the battle and that if said manager can produce that level then the next step of consistency should logically follow as we naturally progress?The fans who travel to away games would rather fall off a cliff with a manager than ever show any signs of disrespect.
Admirable to some people. But it's counter-intuitive at times. They are the ones paying big money to travel all around the country and abroad. They have a right to voice concerns when it's warranted. They don't have to wave white flags or handkerchiefs. But being a robot on one setting doesn't make them any better than people with opinions that aren't as black and white as manager in or manager out. You can support Ole while recognising his flaws, and can dislike Ole while giving him credit when he does something good.
I don't like Ole the manager. At all. But I have been just as vocal about all of our other managers when they have done wrong or made mistakes. Fans generally want what's best for the club. I couldn't care less about bragging rights over Liverpool fans. I wasn't smug when we were successful, and I won't be smug when we are again. People want to see a reasonable style of play with some consistency between performances. Not the extremes we have seen under Ole. Our bad is as bad as anyone's, while our best can be very intricate stuff at times. But you will rarely see us dominate for 60-70 minutes in a game. That's where most of the frustration comes from. It's coming up to 2 years now. We should be more consistent than what we are.
Yeah you would think it's stupid but that's what it looks like to me. It's probably just pure incompetent coaching like you say. He wants the players to be able to score all kinds of goals but how is he going to make that happen consistently? He can tell the fans what they want to hear, but it's his job to actually make it happen in reality.So there is a difference with no tactics to tactics that are not good enough. Saying all he does is tell them to express themselves is stupid because no manager would be in a job if they did that.
Ofcourse he sets up teams and tries for solutions, unfortunately his methods are not good enough at times.
Can the pro ole guys not see that we are light years away from liverpool in terms of coaching, klopp can handle a bunch of injuries to his most important players and still keep winning and winning, when ole has a few injuries it's excuse after excuse and even with a full strength side he is struggling in all honesty we are never touching any major title with his ole's coaching skills. Maybe the fans have given up and just happy now with us battling to try and squeeze into a champions league place every season from now on.
https://genius.com/Liverpool-fc-2015-16-liverpool-fc-squad-annotatedWhat excuse did Klopp have first 3-4 years for not winning anything?
What's your answer then? Hire someone like Poch who was also no where near Liverpool with a high quality Spurs squad?Can the pro ole guys not see that we are light years away from liverpool in terms of coaching, klopp can handle a bunch of injuries to his most important players and still keep winning and winning, when ole has a few injuries it's excuse after excuse and even with a full strength side he is struggling in all honesty we are never touching any major title with his ole's coaching skills. Maybe the fans have given up and just happy now with us battling to try and squeeze into a champions league place every season from now on.
https://genius.com/Liverpool-fc-2015-16-liverpool-fc-squad-annotated
That's obviously a much worse squad than what Ole has right now and I don't see Ole challenging four years from now, let alone two years from now... Would you agree that Klopp had a much bigger overhaul to do than Ole?
Yeah you would think it's stupid but that's what it looks like to me. He wants the players to be able to score all kinds of goals but how is he going to make that happen consistently? He can tell the fans what they want to hear, but it's his job to actually make it happen in reality.
Whenever we have the ball, 99% of the time we look like a team devoid of any purpose or strategy. We labour on it, passing it side to side, mostly everyone ball watching, until it somehow falls to Bruno then he tries to create something out of thin air. For e.g. with LVG, we could easily see his plan on the pitch. The players were visibly drilled, and you could tell they were carrying out his instructions. With Ole even after two years, I still haven't got any idea whatsoever he's tying to do in attack.
The Liverpool squad man for man is not 'quite clearly way ahead of us'. It's what the respective managers manage to get out of them that separates us. The difference between Klopp and Ole as managers is incomparable, which is why they are so far ahead. Give us Klopp and them Ole, and they would be saying the exact same things about us.I've seen Ole organise some big results as well with lot of injury issues.
It's also quite clear liverpool are way ahead of us at the moment.
Find it strange you sound defeated this early into a season.
The Liverpool squad man for man is not 'quite clearly way ahead of us'. It's what the respective managers manage to get out of them that separates us. The difference between Klopp and Ole as managers is incomparable, which is why they are so far ahead. Give us Klopp and them Ole, and they would be saying the exact same things about us.
The buck stops with the owners and board as they are the ones who have allowed the rot to set in, dragging us into this mess in the first place. That's the thing I don't expect Ole to resign, as he will never be at this level again once he leaves. The problem is, Ole is very good for the owners. He's like a lightning conductor, shielding them from any criticism. It's about what can we change realistically? We can't sack the board, but a top manager can still succeed despite them. The Liverpool fans were protesting against their owners too, until Klopp arrived.I agree with everything you are saying. 2 years with no sort of method is not right. Who is to blame though? When was the last time a manager resigned because they cannot get the team playing well?
It is up to the hierarchy to make this decision, it shouldnt take 2 years and a run of bad results to realise this?
Let me give you examples:-
Rodgers - a better man was available, LFC sacked him and appointed Klopp
Chelsea - when they do not like the type of football, the manager is gone.
Ole is the manager, ofcourse he will think he can do the job, he has confidence in himself to succeed, he wouldn't say, No this job is too big for me. So why blame the manager? The board is to blame not the manager.
I agree with everything you are saying. 2 years with no sort of method is not right. Who is to blame though? When was the last time a manager resigned because they cannot get the team playing well?
It is up to the hierarchy to make this decision, it shouldnt take 2 years and a run of bad results to realise this?
Let me give you examples:-
Rodgers - a better man was available, LFC sacked him and appointed Klopp
Chelsea - when they do not like the type of football, the manager is gone.
Ole is the manager, ofcourse he will think he can do the job, he has confidence in himself to succeed, he wouldn't say, No this job is too big for me. So why blame the manager? The board is to blame not the manager.
The buck stops with the owners and board as they are the ones who have allowed the rot to set in, dragging us into this mess in the first place. That's the thing I don't expect Ole to resign, as he will never be at this level again once he leaves. The problem is, Ole is very good for the owners. He's like a lightning conductor, shielding them from any criticism. It's about what can we change realistically? We can't sack the board, but a top manager can still succeed despite them. The Liverpool fans were protesting against their owners too, until Klopp arrived.
It's just perceived that way because of the level of managers. The point is, a top coach with this squad would get us competing with Liverpool/City. It's likely that Ole has reached his limit with us, and that we're unlikely to improve any further under him. Unless you think playing for top 4 is our future ambitions... I don't buy the argument that just because the next manager might not be on the level of Klopp/Guardiola, that means we give up even trying to compete at all.Their squad is superior.
Klopp also a better coach.
But let's not pretend Klopp completely dominated since he has been there. Hes has to rebuild to get to where he is. Most of his signing have been top quality.
We are literally trying to get close to them, difference is most signing we try to make we have to pay record fees or United tax on them.
As I say Klopp first 2 seasons wasnt unbelievable, while he was rebuilding. Actually they struggled a fair bit, especially at the back. Van dyk was a monster signing for them.
Also no sure why we have to keep comparing the managers. It's not like Klopp quality is just sitting about to slot in for a new manager spot. They arent exactly growing on trees and any new manager is a massive risk in my eyes.
I have faith in the Ole rebuild, and I think he can get us closer to where we need to be, which to be honest he already has done. He took over a total shambles.
It's just perceived that way because of the level of managers. The point is, a top coach with this squad would get us competing with Liverpool/City. It's likely that Ole has reached his limit with us, and that we're unlikely to improve any further under him. Unless you think playing for top 4 is our future ambitions... I don't buy the argument that just because the next manager might not be on the level of Klopp/Guardiola, that means we give up even trying to compete at all.
So here's the big question.
Firstly, lets avoid all the guff that people have written about Ole being a good PR man or some sort of criticism deflector for the board because that's clearly ridiculous. Assuming that the board are committed to making United the best football team we can be (which they surely are) why haven't they sacked him?
True klopp needs time and money.
But the same amount of money and time neted them their biggest point tally, a cl cup and the league. The same amount of money and time netter us 13 pts in 8 games.
That's what's so frustrating to me. Last season showed we have an exciting group of young players. Martial/Rashford/Greenwood were rivalling any attacking group in Europe, with many years to grow together. We had AWB pocketing Sterling, Shaw likewise. The worst thing in the world would be to see them stagnate and never reach their potential due to poor management.Agreed, but Liverpool after finishing 2nd realised that a better man is available for the job and made the change.
Liverpool had a footballing person at the top too to understand this, unfortunately for us we do not have that and the only time we will make a change is when things get so bad that we need a rebuild.
Rather than making a change from a position of relative strength.
e.g. making the change now means players will still have confidence, players are not aged / deadwood.
If we wait when we are out of the UCL, 15th in the league after 25 games, confidence will be all time low and new manager has a tougher task, then we give him a year to sort our the team and same issues.
It's honestly unreal how much this squad gets downplayed due to the manager in charge. Imagine telling that to Bayern fans living under Kovac.True klopp needs time and money.
But the same amount of money and time neted them their biggest point tally, a cl cup and the league. The same amount of money and time netter us 13 pts in 8 games.
It's just perceived that way because of the level of managers. The point is, a top coach with this squad would get us competing with Liverpool/City. It's likely that Ole has reached his limit with us, and that we're unlikely to improve any further under him. Unless you think playing for top 4 is our future ambitions... I don't buy the argument that just because the next manager might not be on the level of Klopp/Guardiola, that means we give up even trying to compete at all.
I wonder how people look at our coaching staff and their credentials and think this is the best anybody can make this team doIt's honestly unreal how much this squad gets downplayed due to the manager in charge.
Onky reason I can think off is because Poch is sitting free. He is certainly not the answer.
The forever rebuilding talk is an excuse to justify incompetence. And you've fallen for it.Given up what tho?
We are in a rebuild, building towards progressing up the table and competing as you say. We achieved that goal last season.
We are already competing against City. Liverpool have been miles out ahead for 2 seasons. Very early in the season, as it stands we actually are competing as we are very close to the action. Not sure why everyone has set the current league positions in some sort of cement.
You just dont think we are competing because you've wrote the manager off completely.
Come back to this in December/January time and we see what we are like.
No magic button just push and we are back getting 90+ points in the league. Everything is a gamble. I'm also not even sure why everyone getting on like the manager a game away from being sacked. Onky reason I can think off is because Poch is sitting free. He is certainly not the answer.
This was the season where there's no more excuses for Ole. Yet you suggest he should get a free pass until December/January?
Yes I have written him off. LVG lasted 103 matches, Jose 144. After 2 years and 100+ matches now in charge himself, we're supposed to be seeing more beyond steadying the ship.
I see your position, and agree he met his targets last season if only just. Where I'm at, is that I would hate to see this season written off like Jose's final one, where we do just enough to hang in there when we all know we're not actually going anywhere. I would love to be proven wrong, but I feel as though we've hit our limit under Ole, I don't believe he has the capability to take us any further than top 4. I do think 2 years is a reasonable amount of time to judge the manager. If it gets any worse, we shouldn't be hesitant to pull the trigger is what I'm saying.How about until he has failed at the very least? We're 5 points off top 4 with a game in hand. And we started the season under worse circumstances(in terms of fitness) than every team bar City, who also are behind us.
I'm all for sacking managers who don't deliver after a certain amount of time, but Ole did well enough in his first full season and it's only been 8 games in this one.
I'm not trying to take that away from him. I agree the squad is in a much better shape for success than when he arrived.But this is no better a position than you’re arguing against. Ole has done a much better job than steadying the ship. He’s put together a really solid squad and for that we should be glad.
Im not convinced he can take us forward and suspect he’s plateaued but until he’s gone we shouldn’t write him off. We’ve seen how well he can get this squad playing and my issue with him is why he can’t get us playing that way more often. While he’s here you shouldn’t write him off. His fortunes could literally change from the next match. None of us truly know.
