Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Crustanoid]

At this point anyone who thinks Ole can turn things around is simply delusional. He just does not have it in him.

Of course he has it in him. Surreal post. Do you not remember him turning around our fortunes massively when he first arrived? Or the post lockdown run? That’s ignoring the many minor times he’s reversed our fortunes ie vs Everton recently. He will continue to turn things around. It’s not like he’s nailed on to lose every game from now on?
Ignorant claptrap

 

[AshRK]

Hold up, didn't you start this thread below?

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/is-poch-really-the-answer.458684/

Yes but if Ole is to be let go, Poch seems the logical choice. I still don't think his football is the most attractive but he is the best option available.

 

[sunama]

The season is far from over but regression from an unremarkable 3rd place last season to outside the Top 4 is pathetic.

Agreed, but you need to remember that many fans have lowered their expectation to such a level that even 5th place would have them smiling.
Only 2.5 years ago, many fans were unhappy that we finished 2nd and now finishing 4th or 5th is a good achievement shows the falling standards.
It could be that fans are allowing Ole to get away with the low standards because he is an ex-player, but I don't give any manager a free ride. Last year Ole scored the lowest points total of any manager post SAF. That was a poor season.
We can also see that Ole's plan is Bruno and the counter attack. That's it. If Bruno plays well, we can win. If he plays bad or doesn't play, we can't win. If teams allow us to have the ball, we struggle.
Should Bruno get injured for a few months, I do believe Ole will be fired as we'll probably go several games without a win.

 

[Leftback99]

How do you finish 3rd & suddenly fans accept being ‘outsiders for Top 4’; the excuse can’t always be to buy our way out of trouble.

I’d have preferred more signings in the last window but our wage bill is one of the highest in the league; let’s say we should reasonably expect 5th [I take that as being an outsider for the top 4] - is expecting OgS to overachieve as numerous other managers do season in season out unreasonable, no.

The season is far from over but regression from an unremarkable 3rd place last season to outside the Top 4 is pathetic.

**** Caf.

It's just being realistic. We can ignore City and Liverpool, It's hardly 'pathetic' to finish behind Chelsea who strengthened massively in the summer. That leaves us in 4th competing with Spurs who also had a decent Summer after an injury hit season. And now they've had an excellent start.

Every manager can't 'over achieve'. As for our wage bill we pay £100k+ a week to the likes of Jones and Rojo to contribute absolutely nothing it's no wonder it doesn't correlate to our results on the pitch.

 

[rotherham_red]

Yes but if Ole is to be let go, Poch seems the logical choice. I still don't think his football is the most attractive but he is the best option available.

Fair enough. Personally, he isn't the man for me. That last 12-16 months at Spurs had my alarm bells ringing. Even if he somehow got to the CL final.

 

[sect2k]

As a general rule, if numerous posters all take exception to one of your posts, it's fairly likely the problem lies with your post and not them.

Sure, I'm inclined to agree, but I disagree that 5 people is numerous on a forum this size. And also, context matters, it's not like they argued their position either, mostly just straw man with an occasional ad hominem thrown in for a good measure (one from a "Scout" no less).
All I did was point out, that there certain similarities in the mindset of Ole supporters (and maybe I should have been more explicit here that I mean the Ole-In crowd as seen in this thread) and Trump supporters and even explicitly listed out which. If people take offense with that, it's not my problem, truth hurts, as a saying in my country goes.

Which is why I also quoted all of the 4 responses and added the truth hurts parts (with a mirror thrown in for good measure), which again prompted some said posters to respond and this is how we ended up here. DRAMA!!! not rally

 

[AshRK]

Fair enough. Personally, he isn't the man for me. That last 12-16 months at Spurs had my alarm bells ringing. Even if he somehow got to the CL final.

Like someone said above, any appointment would be a gamble. I also don't think this board are going to sack Ole unless we lose games on the trot and are sitting below 10th come Christmas time.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

It's just being realistic. We can ignore City and Liverpool, It's hardly 'pathetic' to finish behind Chelsea who strengthened massively in the summer. That leaves us in 4th competing with Spurs who also had a decent Summer after an injury hit season. And now they've had an excellent start.

Every manager can't 'over achieve'. As for our wage bill we pay £100k+ a week to the likes of Jones and Rojo to contribute absolutely nothing it's no wonder it doesn't correlate to our results on the pitch.

Last season we spent north of £125mil whilst Chelsea were under a transfer ban [though Pulisic was basically a £50mil signing for them]; at no point on this forum did I see people adding an asterisk to their achievements last season as they were ‘handicapped’ & we finished a substandard amount of points ahead of them considering they also sold Hazard. That’s realism.

No ones talking about City & Liverpool; we finished 3rd yet because we didn’t spend as much as Chelsea [who again didn’t spend last summer] it’s ok to surrender 3rd place & hope for 4th, yea ok.

You’re right not every manager overachieves but when you finish 3rd last season I’d consider the same or 4th par for the course. Any regression in finishing position should be seen as such not reasoned away because ‘Chelsea spent more than us’ or because Harry Kane’s fit.

This squad is capable of Top 4, we may or may not get it but saying we shouldn’t aspire for it 8 games in is a shambles.

The league truly isn’t that spectacular this season; we’ve been crap & could be 4 points off top after our game in hand. We’ve as much a right to look at Top 4 as being achievable as most of the other teams. To clarify, achievable isn’t expected before we head back down that road.

All that to say we spent money this summer.

Agreed, but you need to remember that many fans have lowered their expectation to such a level that even 5th place would have them smiling.
Only 2.5 years ago, many fans were unhappy that we finished 2nd and now finishing 4th or 5th is a good achievement shows the falling standards.
It could be that fans are allowing Ole to get away with the low standards because he is an ex-player, but I don't give any manager a free ride. Last year Ole scored the lowest points total of any manager post SAF. That was a poor season.
We can also see that Ole's plan is Bruno and the counter attack. That's it. If Bruno plays well, we can win. If he plays bad or doesn't play, we can't win. If teams allow us to have the ball, we struggle.
Should Bruno get injured for a few months, I do believe Ole will be fired as we'll probably go several games without a win.

Pretty much agree with this all.

I won’t get into why OgS seems to be given blind faith based on his achievements as a player rather than a manager but we’re getting what we deserve for the most part.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I don't think it should be easy to say Ole can turn things around or make top 4 because of the second half of last season where we were competing with a Leceister team missing some of their key players and that Chelsea team with their terrible defense. This season we are going against a Tottenham side almost as or as strong as us coached by Mourinho. We are going against Chelsea that finished on the same points with us previously and now has a stronger squad. We are going against Liverpool and City which doesn't need much explanation.

I don't really see anything to turn around given its still just 8 games. But I struggle to see how we can make top 4 and anything less is unacceptable and if people are already accepting less and already making up excuses why we can't make top 4 after 8 games then it's time for Ole to go before he drops the standards even lower

 

[Leftback99]

Last season we spent north of £125mil whilst Chelsea were under a transfer ban [though Pulisic was basically a £50mil signing for them]; at no point on this forum did I see people adding an asterisk to their achievements last season as they were ‘handicapped’ & we finished a substandard amount of points ahead of them considering they also sold Hazard. That’s realism.

No ones talking about City & Liverpool; we finished 3rd yet because we didn’t spend as much as Chelsea [who again didn’t spend last summer] it’s ok to surrender 3rd place & hope for 4th, yea ok.

You’re right not every manager overachieves but when you finish 3rd last season I’d consider the same or 4th par for the course. Any regression in finishing position should be seen as such not reasoned away because ‘Chelsea spent more than us’ or because Harry Kane’s fit.

This squad is capable of Top 4, we may or may not get it but saying we shouldn’t expect it 8 games in is a shambles.

The league truly isn’t that spectacular this season; we’ve been crap & could be 4 points off top after our game in hand. We’ve as much a right to look at Top 4 as being achievable as most of the other teams. To clarify, achievable isn’t expected before we head back down that road.


Pretty much agree with this all.

I won’t get into why OgS seems to be given blind faith based on his achievements as a player rather than a manager but we’re getting what we deserve for the most part.

You would find plenty of posts from me saying I thought Chelsea had a better squad than us last season.

I never said top 4 wasn't achievable but the most likely scenario right now (i.e what I 'expect' to happen, not what is 'acceptable') is that it will be Liverpool, City, Chelsea and Spurs. And will be even if we change manager.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

You would find plenty of posts from me saying I thought Chelsea had a better squad than us last season.

I never said top 4 wasn't achievable but the most likely scenario right now (i.e what I 'expect' to happen, not what is 'acceptable') is that it will be Liverpool, City, Chelsea and Spurs. And will be even if we change manager.

Our expectations are pretty much the same; part of my expectation is routed in our mismanagement though. Although I also agree, don’t think a change of manager will remedy everything.

I think changes need to happen at both playing staff & coaching level.

 

[rotherham_red]

Last season we spent north of £125mil whilst Chelsea were under a transfer ban [though Pulisic was basically a £50mil signing for them]; at no point on this forum did I see people adding an asterisk to their achievements last season as they were ‘handicapped’ & we finished a substandard amount of points ahead of them considering they also sold Hazard. That’s realism.

No ones talking about City & Liverpool; we finished 3rd yet because we didn’t spend as much as Chelsea [who again didn’t spend last summer] it’s ok to surrender 3rd place & hope for 4th, yea ok.

You’re right not every manager overachieves but when you finish 3rd last season I’d consider the same or 4th par for the course. Any regression in finishing position should be seen as such not reasoned away because ‘Chelsea spent more than us’ or because Harry Kane’s fit.

This squad is capable of Top 4, we may or may not get it but saying we shouldn’t aspire for it 8 games in is a shambles.

The league truly isn’t that spectacular this season; we’ve been crap & could be 4 points off top after our game in hand. We’ve as much a right to look at Top 4 as being achievable as most of the other teams. To clarify, achievable isn’t expected before we head back down that road.

All that to say we spent money this summer.


Pretty much agree with this all.

I won’t get into why OgS seems to be given blind faith based on his achievements as a player rather than a manager but we’re getting what we deserve for the most part.

Chelsea had £90m worth of incomings that summer when you factor in Pulisic and Kovacic. Also to your Hazard point, I'd argue letting go of Lukaku without replacing him is more egregious than replacing Hazard with Pulisic. Or the fact that they still had the likes of Abraham, Mount, Zouma, Tomori, et al coming in to that side which had already finished third the season before and won the EL. We, as I'm sure you remember, finished 6th that season.

 

[rotherham_red]

You would find plenty of posts from me saying I thought Chelsea had a better squad than us last season.

I never said top 4 wasn't achievable but the most likely scenario right now (i.e what I 'expect' to happen, not what is 'acceptable') is that it will be Liverpool, City, Chelsea and Spurs. And will be even if we change manager.

The season is still in its very early stages and I wouldn't count us out of the Top 4 right now. Win our game in hand and we're only 4 points from the top spot after all.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

You would find plenty of posts from me saying I thought Chelsea had a better squad than us last season.

I never said top 4 wasn't achievable but the most likely scenario right now (i.e what I 'expect' to happen, not what is 'acceptable') is that it will be Liverpool, City, Chelsea and Spurs. And will be even if we change manager.

If top 4 is looking unachievable under Ole then there's really no point keeping him. It's better to get a new manager now that has the better ability of turning us to league champions. Even if this new manager doesn't get top 4 at least he'd have gotten used to the team and vice versa.

I'd much rather have Pochettino come and get 5th while spending the remainder of the season implementing his system in the team and understanding what it needs than Ole carry on and get 5th which will likely sack him and we'd have to bring in a new manager (could even be Pochettino). It's just postponing the inevitable which would do more harm than good. This is why we are always a step behind.

I do think it's still early to say top 4 is looking unlikely. Let's see where we are at in December

 

[Widow]

We can keep changing management but until we have a change in the boardroom, anyone will struggle

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

Whether you are Ole in or Ole out, one thing both sides can agree on is that Ole is primarily a defensive coach. This is something that baffles me. He was a striker, he was part of Ferguson's team, he knows the club, he kept on talking about attacking football, yet he is a defensive manager.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

That’s as may be, but a ton of people bemoaning the start to our season would be happy too see Pep take over for Ole. City fans making sense is in no way a part of my argument.

Are you saying you would have Ole over Pep?

 

[BlueHaze]

Without Bruno he would have been sacked already. Absolutely pathetic watching the game against WBA. Literally one of the most useless teams in the league and we get away with a jammy 1-0 win from a pen. We'll go nowhere under Ole. His style of football is quite frankly unbearable to watch for half of the time as well.

 

[Greck]

It's just being realistic. We can ignore City and Liverpool, It's hardly 'pathetic' to finish behind Chelsea who strengthened massively in the summer. That leaves us in 4th competing with Spurs who also had a decent Summer after an injury hit season. And now they've had an excellent start.

Every manager can't 'over achieve'. As for our wage bill we pay £100k+ a week to the likes of Jones and Rojo to contribute absolutely nothing it's no wonder it doesn't correlate to our results on the pitch.

Does your evaluation criteria only relate to spending? If it does how did you still end up with Spurs leapfrogging us on the basis of spending?

edit: let me be honest. This sounds like hardcore excuse fabrication imo. We're always exaggerating circumstances to excuse failures (real or potential). A few weeks ago it was lack of preseason. We jump seamlessly from one explanation to another

 

[Eriku]

Are you saying you would have Ole over Pep?

No. I’m saying a lot of people would cite our poor start to the season as clear-cut evidence that Ole isn’t good enough and needs to go, but generally they wouldn’t make the same call for Pep.

 

[blemis]

Voted for no , as rival fans we want Ole to stay , everyone knows United is going nowhere with him.

 

[Jibbs]

What do you mean by 'turn things around'? The season has barely started. We're the outsider for top 4 with Chelsea and Spurs stealing an early march on us but of course he has it in him as proved last season.

With the kind of money we have spent, turning things around for me means winning the premier league and reaching at least till semis of premier league

 

[Slysi17]

Doesn't matter if you want Ole in or out. If Manchester United keep playing like they did against West Brom he will be sacked by Christmas.

 

[Volumiza]

How is improvement measured? By so many metrics we have improved. League position. Goals scored and conceded. Points totals. Those are set in stone. They are what they are.

I’m totally aware lots of things have improved. The makeup, balance and depth of our squad. Our league position and accomplishments last season were good on the face of it all but unfortunately the biggest metric I measure against is what I see on the pitch.

Sure, we’ve had some fantastic performances but we’ve had so many more clueless, insipid and lifeless performances surrounding them.

So we know the players can do it. I think we’ve got a really good squad, yes it could always be improved but I think it’s our best squad in years.

So why do we watch so many matches with us looking toothless? For me, that is the manager. Why do we still struggle to break teams down? Why haven’t we seen some improvement on how we deal with teams who sit back? Why aren’t these things changing? Because these are the details that will move us from scraping 4th and qualification for the CL, to 3rd, then 2nd and eventually title winners.

In my view we’ve plateaued. Oles done a good job. I’ve lost belief that he can take us further.

 

[croadyman]

I’m totally aware lots of things have improved. The makeup, balance and depth of our squad. Our league position and accomplishments last season were good on the face of it all but unfortunately the biggest metric I measure against is what I see on the pitch.

Sure, we’ve had some fantastic performances but we’ve had so many more clueless, insipid and lifeless performances surrounding them.

So we know the players can do it. I think we’ve got a really good squad, yes it could always be improved but I think it’s our best squad in years.

So why do we watch so many matches with us looking toothless? For me, that is the manager. Why do we still struggle to break teams down? Why haven’t we seen some improvement on how we deal with teams who sit back? Why aren’t these things changing? Because these are the details that will move us from scraping 4th and qualification for the CL, to 3rd, then 2nd and eventually title winners.

In my view we’ve plateaued. Oles done a good job. I’ve lost belief that he can take us further.

Yeah definitely feels like something isn't right at the moment but the board don't see to have any doubts about Ole at all

 

[Sentient Meat]

Pep can potentially attract a Messi... while Jose can attract a Bale or Ibrahimovic
That is the main advantage of having a world class manager that even if you are struggling some greats will come to play for them.

 

[M16Red]

Worrying thing for me is even if he got his wish and the club spent £200m on Sancho and Grealish, the same result would have happened in my opinion.

I don’t think he knows how to implement a system that isn’t reliant on individual brilliance, and nor do his coaches. OGS has said he’s a man management guy. Phelan isnt the tactics guy. From stuff I’ve read, his strength is motivator/man management rather than tactician. There’s a reason why our style of play steadily dropped once he took over from Queiroz in the SAF times. Carrick got parachuted into a first team coaching role after retiring. McKenna has experience at youth level but youth and senior levels are completely different.

So we have two senior coaches who are man management, an inexperienced coach who was dropped into the first team coaching setup immediately after retirement and a coach who has credentials at youth level. Who would be the tactician out of that lot? Is it really a case of “go out there and enjoy yourselves lads but try to give the ball to Bruno at every chance”

Yep, 100% it not just Ole. its the staff around him as well, most managers move with there full team.

 

[meamth]

Yep, 100% it not just Ole. its the staff around him as well, most managers move with there full team.

Thing is even Sir Alex days, we're relying on player's brilliance rather than system of play, or well oiled machine style.

Heck, most of dominating team in Europe doesn't rely on system of play, because player qualities will always makes the difference.

EDIT:
There are some evidence that coaches with systematic style of play often failed at bigger clubs, see Sarri, Emery, LVG..

Even Klopp stopped relying on gegen pressing and started to rely on individual brilliance.

Systematic teams are often used to compensate the lack of quality.

 

[Leftback99]

Does your evaluation criteria only relate to spending? If it does how did you still end up with Spurs leapfrogging us on the basis of spending?

edit: let me be honest. This sounds like hardcore excuse fabrication imo. We're always exaggerating circumstances to excuse failures (real or potential). A few weeks ago it was lack of preseason. We jump seamlessly from one explanation to another

No. I'm also able to remember that last season Spurs were clear favourites for 3rd before the season started, now we should believe they are useless?

Keep looking at it from one blinkered point of view though, everything is an 'excuse' everything has to be the Solskjaer's fault there is no other possible reason why a manager could not win the league here.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It's been a poor start from Solskjaer (and the players) but you said yourself in July that he deserved this season, have a bit of patience to back your judgement.

He deserved to start the season, he doesn’t deserve to survive the kind of start for the second year running that got Mourinho fired after finishing second with 80+ points.
The next 3 games are crucial for him.

That you have basically pointed out that 5th is all you expect, 2 positions worse than last season & 3 positions worse than the season before Ole took over tells us everything. Your standards for this manager are incredibly low, no wonder you don’t want a change.

Next season you’ll likely find reason as to why 6th is all you can expect.

 

[M16Red]

Thing is even Sir Alex days, we're relying on player's brilliance rather than system of play, or well oiled machine style.

Heck, most of dominating team in Europe doesn't rely on system of play, because player qualities will always makes the difference.

EDIT:
There are some evidence that coaches with systematic style of play often failed at bigger clubs, see Sarri, Emery, LVG..

Even Klopp stopped relying on gegen pressing and started to rely on individual brilliance.

Systematic teams are often used to compensate the lack of quality.

Systematic teams? I didn't say anything about them, I was more making the point about the coaching around Ole in reply.

It's Carricks first job as coach, yet he is good enough to coach at one of the biggest clubs in the world? Or Mckenna is an unders coach why is he good enough?

My answer is my eyes tell me they or/and Ole are not - I watch Liverpool yesterday a James Milner looked better than both our full backs, the kids at Liverpool aren’t even that good skill set wise not a standout skill just a James Milner type of player's and yet they seem to understand that of you pass the football, movement is a good idea!

We just pass and stand still, worse of all the passes are slow static zombie passing.

I think Ole management skills are okay, but the coaching of this team is really poor.

 

[McGrathsipan]

Cant even watch anymore we are so bad.
Ole just sits there. Looks jaded.
A dynamic player like Donny not even getting a look in.

No progress evident and no sign of it either

 

[Andycoleno9]

Does your evaluation criteria only relate to spending? If it does how did you still end up with Spurs leapfrogging us on the basis of spending?

edit: let me be honest. This sounds like hardcore excuse fabrication imo. We're always exaggerating circumstances to excuse failures (real or potential). A few weeks ago it was lack of preseason. We jump seamlessly from one explanation to another

New excuse is City. Pay attention.
History of excuses;
First season:
Knows the club
It is Jose's team
We beat PSG away
Needs time
Needs pre-season
Needs his players
Klopp
Second season:
Needs time
Klopp
It's the players!
Needs another 2-3 transfer windows
Injuries
Squad depth
Lampard
Third season:
Finished 3rd
Lack of pre-season
Sancho
Upamecano
Ed
Glazers
Needs time
Klopp
City

 

[Volumiza]

No progress evident and no sign of it either

Summed up perfectly in 9 words!

 

[United Hobbit]

I think it was an incredibly boring game that it took a couple of dodgy penalty decisions for us to win.

Yes I do think internationals should be stopped this season.

I think what makes it worse is how Liverpool dominated Leicester, who could have gone top, despite having those injuries. Yes Klopp has had more time, yes there are very few out there at his or Sir Alex's level at present. But could Ole have done that?

 

[The Red Thinker]

Ole's lead in the poll is falling like Trump's in Pennsylvania.

 

[Leftback99]

He deserved to start the season, he doesn’t deserve to survive the kind of start for the second year running that got Mourinho fired after finishing second with 80+ points.
The next 3 games are crucial for him.

That you have basically pointed out that 5th is all you expect, 2 positions worse than last season & 3 positions worse than the season before Ole took over tells us everything. Your standards for this manager are incredibly low, no wonder you don’t want a change.

Next season you’ll likely find reason as to why 6th is all you can expect.

I was making the same 'excuses' for Mourinho as it happens. Check my posts saying that 2nd was a big over achievement, you'll probably find posts from saying me predicting around 6th going into the season after we finished 2nd. Probably getting similar abuse at the time.

Before he was sacked I was saying I don't expect much better under the next manager, and here we are. If anything Ole has exceeded my expectations and that why I'm backing him with more time.

I'll be consistent with the next guy with my opinion of what is realistic with our squad compared to others.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Makes sense, if you’re permanently pessimistic about our squad, you’ll be happy with any manager @Leftback99

We’ve the second most expensive (by some distance), squad in the league. It’s very much Ole’s squad at this point.

 

[romufc]

The fact you're even trying to build that straw man shows you have no idea how to build a proper argument.

I was ecstatic when he was 'at the wheel' but I still wanted to wait till the end of the season to confirm him as permanent manager. That wasn't some sort of brilliant premotion or genius thinking on my end and neither do I claim to have some amazing football knowledge/foresight (I don't). It just highlights the naivety and stupidity of our board.

I am not saying he should have been appointed manager, I agree it was way too reactionary, he hadn't really achieved anything other than a prolonged new manager bounce.

 

[Leftback99]

Makes sense, if you’re permanently pessimistic about our squad, you’ll be happy with any manager @Leftback99

We’ve the second most expensive (by some distance), squad in the league. It’s very much Ole’s squad at this point.

Second most expensive squad doesn't equate to second best. There's £100m plus in the likes of Jones, Rojo, Bailly, Matic, Mata. Worth about £20m between them in reality, and less said about £90m Pogba the better.

Transfermarkt squad valuations (independent, not my pessimistic opinion) puts us 4th in the PL. https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spieler-statistik/wertvollstemannschaften/marktwertetop