Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Withnail]

What is a 'modern formation'?

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[Ledom]

I'm unsure what people consider a good season and why the goal posts move so often for Ole. Can we have a consistent conversation where there is a format established for what is considered doing well?

Top 4 is by definition a title challenge surely?
Backing a manager by the board is considered in terms of financial outlay or is it time?
Progress is determined by results or by style played?
How is Ole doing more/less than the teams around him should surely be a pivotal question.

For me Ole has competed with the best in the league, consistency has been a problem but given the quality of our backup options objectively makes sense. He has been backed by the board in terms of time given, nobody has told him (afaik) that certain players are bigger than him, thus he has full control over squad selection. It isn't marketability that governs our squad selection for instance, it's the managers perception of who deserves to be on the field. The squad needs more investment but we are only going to make signings that a) make sense and b) are financially optimal for us. Yes, that will frustrate us sometimes but in other moments will actually do us some good.

Everyone wants to win trophies but given there are so few of those available it isn't a fair arbiter of success. Otherwise you may as well sack every manager who doesn't win a trophy every year. That is ludicrous surely? For me...

Consistently placing in the top 4, making at least 1 semi final a year (the FA Cup) and a quarter final finish in Europe should be reflections of a good to great season. A fantastic season is converting one of those goals into something more. Instead of top 4, winning the league, instead of a semi final... winning the cup... instead of a quarter final... getting into the semis or final... for me, these were the standards for SAF, we had more fantastic seasons than great, more great than good... but that shouldn't automatically change the set standards that show the team as one of the shining standards of club football

 

[Volumiza]

So Sancho and a CB should I be expecting top3 or do I have to wait another season for my expectations to be a title challenge and I can truly judge him then?

Disclaimer* Only if we get the transfers we require for next summer too.

I see the reality somewhere in between.

If we added Sancho and a decent CB I would expect a title challenge ... BUT ... if we finished next season top 3 and good cup runs coupled with good football I wouldn’t expect the club to sack Ole in that basis.

It’s ok to expect title challenges but not realistic to expect titles.

 

[Mainoldo]

I see the reality somewhere in between.

If we added Sancho and a decent CB I would expect a title challenge ... BUT ... if we finished next season top 3 and good cup runs coupled with good football I wouldn’t expect the club to sack Ole in that basis.

It’s ok to expect title challenges but not realistic to expect titles.

I too would expect a title challenge but I would also know it wouldn’t happen. We probably both agree on why that would be.

 

[FatherWolff]

"Going back to our roots" is irrelevant. Getting better is the issue. Klopp didn't solve any 'drift from culture'. He just took over a crap team and made them better.

Klopp and Pep had a track record and deserved faith. OGS has no track record to suggest he can do a similar job. I'm also skeptical that he can get the most out of the players we have. He was a brilliant choice of interim manager and things went really well. Unfortunately, our club has no plan beyond the next few months so just appointed him off of that. Hopefully, it works out but I am skeptical that it will.

I'm aware that questioning the manager means you're somehow not a "real" supporter in some people's eyes but seeing as that's a stupid idea, I don't care.

I would say you are wrong. Going back to our roots is absolutely necessary. It means building a team of winners knowing what is the history of the club. That is actually important when building a group of players. It goes in any aspect of life, knowing who you are and what is expected of you. It also means a link between our youth set up and first team, and that is our history.

Oles pedigree means f all as long as he is doing the right things and building something we can believe in. But he needs the tools, and can not rely on the squad he has.

Culture is everything, or else PSG would actually win something outside France. Culture is what demand and shape how good you have to be the best. It is what push you every day.

 

[lysglimt]

"Going back to our roots" is irrelevant. Getting better is the issue. Klopp didn't solve any 'drift from culture'. He just took over a crap team and made them better.

Klopp and Pep had a track record and deserved faith. OGS has no track record to suggest he can do a similar job. I'm also skeptical that he can get the most out of the players we have. He was a brilliant choice of interim manager and things went really well. Unfortunately, our club has no plan beyond the next few months so just appointed him off of that. Hopefully, it works out but I am skeptical that it will.

I'm aware that questioning the manager means you're somehow not a "real" supporter in some people's eyes but seeing as that's a stupid idea, I don't care.

It's perfectly fine to question your manager - and unlike a lot of people here, you actually have the ability to conjure up relevant points. But the problem is that the majority of the most out-spoken critics lack that.

 

[glazed]

What is a 'modern formation'?

Read this

" Pressing has increasingly come to seem the key battleground among the elite clubs. It is the hallmark of the German model that has become pre-eminent. It’s where the biggest doubts exist about Frank Lampard and Ole Gunnar Solskjær and where Jürgen Klopp seems to have gained an advantage over Pep Guardiola. In Wenger’s declining years, as they suffered those regular maulings at the hands of Bayern and Barcelona, it was their pressing that really let them down. But in eight months, Arteta has them looking as sharp as anybody in that regard. "

 

[glazed]

Yeah we might aswell stay where we are. Good forbid we have a team good enough to challenge. Would just be a big disappointment. Like Jose’s second season.

I just doubt we can finish higher than a decently drilled pressing side, all else being equal. So that's City and the dippers to start with. And you can probably add Arsenal now. So we're fighting for fourth place from Day 1.

 

[Withnail]

Read this

" Pressing has increasingly come to seem the key battleground among the elite clubs. It is the hallmark of the German model that has become pre-eminent. It’s where the biggest doubts exist about Frank Lampard and Ole Gunnar Solskjær and where Jürgen Klopp seems to have gained an advantage over Pep Guardiola. In Wenger’s declining years, as they suffered those regular maulings at the hands of Bayern and Barcelona, it was their pressing that really let them down. But in eight months, Arteta has them looking as sharp as anybody in that regard. "

Ok so you meant utilising pressing which would be to do with the system rather than formation then?

There's a way to go for us to catch up to City/Liverpool but Arsenal?

They had a good cup run but been quite inconsistent in league and have a young team. I don't see them in the mix for top 4 this season.

They finished mid-table and even if you take the mini table of results since lockdown they were around 10th.

 

[glazed]

Ok so you meant utilising pressing which would be to do with the system rather than formation then?

There's a way to go for us to catch up to City/Liverpool but Arsenal?

They had a good cup run but been quite inconsistent in league and have a young team. I don't see them in the mix for top 4 this season.

They finished mid-table and even if you take the mini table of results since lockdown they were around 10th.

I'm not sure what the practical difference between system and formation is, but sure, that's what I mean. Maybe I used the wrong technical word.

I do think Arsenal will be the team to beat for third, because quality pressing allows you to grind out wins against lesser teams so very efficiently. Arteta has needed a while to bed down but I think he's getting there and he's learned from the best. So it will be a battle of the PE Teachers between Ole and Lampard for fourth. Jose will piss everyone off and get sacked or have his magic second season - hard to tell.

I mean they're only prediction. Probably wrong.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

I'm not sure what the practical difference between system and formation is, but sure, that's what I mean. Maybe I used the wrong technical word.

I do think Arsenal will be the team to beat for third, because quality pressing allows you to grind out wins against lesser teams so very efficiently. Arteta has needed a while to bed down but I think he's getting there and he's learned from the best. So it will be a battle of the PE Teachers between Ole and Lampard for fourth. Jose will piss everyone off and get sacked or have his magic second season - hard to tell.

I mean they're only prediction. Probably wrong.

What a load of rubbish.

 

[glazed]

What a load of rubbish.

I am in awe of your well thought out analysis.

 

[Zen86]

I am in awe of your well thought out analysis.

It is a load of rubbish to be fair.

 

[Amarsdd]

I am in awe of your well thought out analysis.

many will be in awe of yours too tbf.

 

[Withnail]

I'm not sure what the practical difference between system and formation is, but sure, that's what I mean. Maybe I used the wrong technical word.

I do think Arsenal will be the team to beat for third, because quality pressing allows you to grind out wins against lesser teams so very efficiently. Arteta has needed a while to bed down but I think he's getting there and he's learned from the best. So it will be a battle of the PE Teachers between Ole and Lampard for fourth. Jose will piss everyone off and get sacked or have his magic second season - hard to tell.

I mean they're only prediction. Probably wrong.

Well, the formation is 442/4231/433/352 - this is very basic stuff.

You can play all of these formations with various systems of attack/defence or styles or play i.e. high-pressing/pressing in your own half, a low block/high defensive line, possession football/counter-attack etc, etc etc.

It's really not very technical at all and if you aren't clued up on these things then I don't know how you can claim the United manager should be doing any of them

The cup run aside, Arteta has done very little to come to the conclusion they're suddenly a shoo-in for top 4. If they had good run of results post-lockdown then maybe you'd have a point.

However, it was more of the same and they had 1.6 points per game while the 'PE teachers' (ffs) had 2.4 and 2.0 for those 9 or 10 games.

 

[rotherham_red]

Read this

" Pressing has increasingly come to seem the key battleground among the elite clubs. It is the hallmark of the German model that has become pre-eminent. It’s where the biggest doubts exist about Frank Lampard and Ole Gunnar Solskjær and where Jürgen Klopp seems to have gained an advantage over Pep Guardiola. In Wenger’s declining years, as they suffered those regular maulings at the hands of Bayern and Barcelona, it was their pressing that really let them down. But in eight months, Arteta has them looking as sharp as anybody in that regard. "

Well, unfortunately for Wilson and yourself the stats disprove this notion that we are poor at pressing - we actually were in the top 3 for it in the whole league last season.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

To sack him now would be silly. Give him this season and see what happens. If we see improvements on many levels then keep him.
If we can find a better manager next summer then go for it if we haven't done that well.

 

[glazed]

It is a load of rubbish to be fair.

It's a load of rubbish that accomplished high pressing teams are doing best in competition? Tell that to Liverpool and City. Tell it to Bayern. Tell it to Spurs who went from 2nd to 3rd to 4th to 6th when they abandoned it.

Some people don't like to deal with reality.

 

[glazed]

Well, unfortunately for Wilson and yourself the stats disprove this notion that we are poor at pressing - we actually were in the top 3 for it in the whole league last season.

Yes and we finished third. But it was a distant third. Meanwhile Arsenal...

 

[Zen86]

It's a load of rubbish that accomplished high pressing teams are doing best in competition? Tell that to Liverpool and City. Tell it to Bayern. Tell it to Spurs who went from 2nd to 3rd to 4th to 6th when they abandoned it.

Some people don't like to deal with reality.

What you said, which basically came down to pressing + Arteta = 3rd, was a load of rubbish.

 

[glazed]

Well, the formation is 442/4231/433/352 - this is very basic stuff.

Yes obviously but they don't stay in those configurations like robots all game - it's just a short hand. That is also basic stuff. But I agree I used the wrong word.

I also agree that we did better than Arsenal last season. That is numerically a fact which is why we finished above them. I just have a hunch they will do well this season and finish top four.

 

[glazed]

What you said, which basically came down to pressing + Arteta = 3rd, was a load of rubbish.

Could be. Opinions are like assholes.

 

[OrcaFat]

I am in awe of your well thought out analysis.

Brief but accurate.

It was basically rubbish but you are not alone in thinking Arteta is doing great and a promising young coach. He’s a media darling already. The main reason for this is expectation. For some reason, very little stink is made about a total novice being given the Arsenal job. Very little attention given to the general poor record this season and plenty credit given to Arteta for not a lot. But Arsenal are simply not expected to win the league whereas United are.

If we lose there’s always more heat.

Your hunch about Arsenal may be right, who can tell (and they do have some great players), but in terms of Arteta, really it sounds like a regurgitation of the press talk and the easy ride he’s been given.

 

[AshRK]

I'm not sure what the practical difference between system and formation is, but sure, that's what I mean. Maybe I used the wrong technical word.

I do think Arsenal will be the team to beat for third, because quality pressing allows you to grind out wins against lesser teams so very efficiently. Arteta has needed a while to bed down but I think he's getting there and he's learned from the best. So it will be a battle of the PE Teachers between Ole and Lampard for fourth. Jose will piss everyone off and get sacked or have his magic second season - hard to tell.

I mean they're only prediction. Probably wrong.

I will be fair when I say I am impressed how arteta has organized arsenal's defense but apart from that nothing looks great. They play boring brand of football which is taken from José's book. Aubameyang has been bailing them out and then they just defend and defend and hope martinez save them. There is nothing to be amazed with that brand.

Their pressing look half hearted just like ours or even Chelsea's. So to say lampard and Ole are pe teachers but arteta is second coming of pep and klopp makes your argument funny.

 

[glazed]

I will be fair when I say I am impressed how arteta has organized arsenal's defense but apart from that nothing looks great. They play boring brand of football which is taken from José's book. Aubameyang has been bailing them out and then they just defend and defend and hope martinez save them. There is nothing to be amazed with that brand.

I don't think he's trying to play like a poor man's Jose. He's a poor man's Pep. And that's a much more dangerous proposition.

Think of all the mid table teams that we struggle against routinely on bad days. Pressing teams churn out results in those games like machines. We see it again and again. It's like they start two goals up. Whether they are good to watch is another matter.

 

[AshRK]

I don't think he's trying to play like a poor man's Jose. He's a poor man's Pep. And that's a much more dangerous proposition.

Think of all the mid table teams that we struggle against routinely on bad days. Pressing teams churn out results in those games like machines. We see it again and again. It's like they start two goals up. Whether they are good to watch is another matter.

I don't see any resemblance of their football with pep. You are just hyping him just because he was assitant of pep. So far their football is boring and defensive which is polar opposite of pep. They have rarely dominated any games and have been fortunate Auba is scoring some worldies and Martinez doing peak de gea for them. All yhey have done is score a goal and sit back, ehich is what Jose got criticized for. So we cannot suddenly change the goal post and say look arteta is doing an amazing job. Arteta has to prove a lot before people start calling him pep 2.0. At the present moment both ole and lampard's team play much more entertaining football than arteta's arsenal.

 

[glazed]

At the present moment both ole and lampard's team play much more entertaining football than arteta's arsenal.

That's certainly true.

 

[rotherham_red]

Yes and we finished third. But it was a distant third. Meanwhile Arsenal...

Meanwhile Arsenal finished 8th with Arteta at the helm, after losing to both Brighton and Villa, as well as being outclassed by Jose fricking Mourinho, after lockdown.

I'm sorry but this Arteta love-in is weird. They genuinely don't look that different to what they were under Emery or Wenger. What was so different to that City semi final for example, that wasn't there when Wenger went to the Etihad and beat City in 2012? That they proceeded to shit the bed against a then seemingly doomed Villa straight after just crystallises it for me.

People are going far too overboard after a good cup run. Let's see where he is at Christmas before anointing him as the prodigal son please.

I'll be more than happy to admit I've been wrong and have this post shoved back in my face if he does live up to the hype but his overall record still pales in comparison to Ole's and he isn't exactly shopping at the top end of the market either.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

I would probably rather have Arteta than Ole. Although so far both has everything to prove.
We have the better squad though so should be doing better.
The only player that would go into our 11 from them are Aubameyang and Luiz on his good days.

 

[rotherham_red]

I don't see any resemblance of their football with pep. You are just hyping him just because he was assitant of pep. So far their football is boring and defensive which is polar opposite of pep. They have rarely dominated any games and have been fortunate Auba is scoring some worldies and Martinez doing peak de gea for them. All yhey have done is score a goal and sit back, ehich is what Jose got criticized for. So we cannot suddenly change the goal post and say look arteta is doing an amazing job. Arteta has to prove a lot before people start calling him pep 2.0. At the present moment both ole and lampard's team play much more entertaining football than arteta's arsenal.

Yeah, there was a tweet going round recently, of a video clip of Jose on sky after an Arsenal game which he was a pundit on, literally spelling it out in plain English what he would do if he was at Arsenal and it was EXACTLY the same as what Arteta has done: compact spaces, Aubameyang playing from the left, etc.

 

[rotherham_red]

I would probably rather have Arteta than Ole. Although so far both has everything to prove.
We have the better squad though so should be doing better.
The only player that would go into our 11 from them are Aubameyang and Luiz on his good days.

But we all know what you're like when it comes to Ole, so...

 

[rcoobc]

Well, unfortunately for Wilson and yourself the stats disprove this notion that we are poor at pressing - we actually were in the top 3 for it in the whole league last season.

I guess just because we press, doesn't mean we're good at it.

 

[Bilbo]

Love how Arteta is the new coaching darling because of a few wins over the big sides, yet Ole has put together an equally strong record over a much bigger sample size yet people still question his tactical ability.

Typical redcafe

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

But we all know what you're like when it comes to Ole, so...

not the biggest fan, but think he deserves the chance this season. Next summer unless something change I would look for a better manager.

 

[K Stand Knut]

I would probably rather have Arteta than Ole. Although so far both has everything to prove.
We have the better squad though so should be doing better.
The only player that would go into our 11 from them are Aubameyang and Luiz on his good days.

Wow.

Just wow

 

[He'sRaldo]

Love how Arteta is the new coaching darling because of a few wins over the big sides, yet Ole has put together an equally strong record over a much bigger sample size yet people still question his tactical ability.

Typical redcafe

Although I equally dislike the whole "new darling coach" thing, at least you can see now the rationale behind those who would prefer a more accomplished tactical coach over Ole.

Now that the comparison is in Ole's favour you're more favourable to it, but it does go both ways.

 

[Tyrion]

It's perfectly fine to question your manager - and unlike a lot of people here, you actually have the ability to conjure up relevant points. But the problem is that the majority of the most out-spoken critics lack that.

Fair enough; thanks. I think most posts on this kind of forum will always be emotional and pretty knee-jerk in nature which is unfortunate.

 

[glazed]

I guess just because we press, doesn't mean we're good at it.

This is it in a nutshell. Being good at pressing is about making it the centrepiece of your strategy. That's why we could never do it with DdG playing the way he does (for example.)

 

[Tom Cato]

Could be. Opinions are like assholes.

Accepting of new input?

 

[Tyrion]

I would say you are wrong. Going back to our roots is absolutely necessary. It means building a team of winners knowing what is the history of the club. That is actually important when building a group of players. It goes in any aspect of life, knowing who you are and what is expected of you. It also means a link between our youth set up and first team, and that is our history.

Oles pedigree means f all as long as he is doing the right things and building something we can believe in. But he needs the tools, and can not rely on the squad he has.

Culture is everything, or else PSG would actually win something outside France. Culture is what demand and shape how good you have to be the best. It is what push you every day.

I remember watching a quiz on MUTV where Giggs didn't know how many managers had won the league title with United. I knew the answer. But there's a reason Giggs was in the team and I wasn't and it had nothing to do with "knowing the history". Lingard knows plenty about the club but Bruno doesn't and I know which one I prefer. Talent is what matters. Culture is something fans like to hype up to make their club feel more special than it is.

Juventus can't win anything outside of Italy either but they're not lacking culture. The issue is the same. The team isn't good enough. The history of the club is irrelevant.