Probably the most stupid article I’ve ever seen. He took over mid-season and INCREASED their points per game and position for that season. Then this article was made in August of his first season?
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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Probably the most stupid article I’ve ever seen. He took over mid-season and INCREASED their points per game and position for that season. Then this article was made in August of his first season?
His first full season, regarding the points per game the article even says it doesn’t tell the bigger picture.Probably the most stupid article I’ve ever seen. He took over mid-season and INCREASED their points per game and position for that season. Then this article was made in August of his first season?
The big problem with the article is that you do have to actually read it.
I think we’re pretty much done with this now anyway aren’t we. I’m glad we could have a reasonable chat without it getting heated.
Mental mate, that article was so stupid that 4 months later at xmas, Klopp was every bit in the title race. Only losing Mane to the African nations ruined that run. By the end of that season he had 2 points per game, better than the stat for Rodgers that "doesn't tell the full story".
I mean, the writer even agrees with my view in the article that: "Klopp is as popular as ever. If there have been dissenting voices, they have been quiet and few". And a look through the comments section there tells you that your belief he was widely doubted isn't actually a thing, every single Liverpool fan there is backing him and calling the article a click bait piece of nonsense.
I'll finish with this:
The doubts on Klopp weren't widespread as I mentioned earlier, the few small doubts were the same doubts anyone has over a new manager, be it Conte, Klopp, Pep... "will he be good enough to take us to the very top". No-one who wasn't desperate for clicks was doubting that Klopp was a top manager or that he'd have Liverpool in the mix.
Klopp was doubted by very few in his first full season as he had them in that title race at Xmas and ultimately ended with 76 points in 4th. The very few who doubted him were doubting if he was gonna be the man to get Liverpool to that long awaited title.
Ole is doubted by pretty much everyone and questioned as to whether or not he's even a Premier League standard manager. The doubts are whether he's good enough to even get United into the top 5 after spending €214m and whether he'll even be good enough next year for top 6 if Spurs and Chelsea have good Summer windows.
That's why I don't get the comparison of "doubts", they are night and day. To say that "something Klopp and Ole have in common is that both were doubted" is so incredibly misleading.
And for today, that is me, "work" is done and I'm off home
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How do we keep seeing the same useless comparisons, Pep and Klopp's first seasons were nothing like Ole's in any way. Both could point to at least one team they had built previously that had competed at the very pinnacle of European football, even if Pep had finished 10th first season, you could literally see the team's style of play changing and developing and the same goes for Liverpool under Klopp.
Lampard is a better comparison in that he was also relatively inexperienced at the highest level as a manager but it's a comparison that doesn't benefit Ole at all. Given he's sat above us in the table with, in my opinion, a weaker squad and having had no transfer windows to compete doesn't exactly reflect well when we're chasing them having shelled out close to £200m on players.
Lampard is a better comparison in that he was also relatively inexperienced at the highest level as a manager but it's a comparison that doesn't benefit Ole at all. Given he's sat above us in the table with, in my opinion, a weaker squad and having had no transfer windows to compete doesn't exactly reflect well when we're chasing them having shelled out close to £200m on players.
That doesn't amount to a transfer committee independent of the manager. And there is no indication that a similar arrangement existed under Mourinho - which is the point (or the point I was making anyway).
Ole consults various people (coaches and scouts, as I said) and values their opinions (as he should). But he's the top banana, ultimately - there is no "transfer committee" over him who can overrule him. And there certainly wasn't one to overrule Mourinho - this whole "board with veto rights" is clearly something that was started up under Ole, with his approval.
Hang on @Chesterlestreet, regarding the bloded you're actually denying the words from the club CEO ffs?
Woodward "The manager has a veto on a player - we would never sign a player the manager wouldn't want because he wouldn't play him. But we also feel the recruitment department, the football experts, should have a veto too."
So yeah, if Ole puts forward a player and Jim Lawlor thinks he's a terrible fit, absolutely Jim can veto and overrule Ole, and vice versa of course.
Ed also confirms that the club put it in place, not fecking Ole man, stop making up your own truth. Ole didn't create a committee, the club did, rather than appoint a DoF and the committee will be in place when Ole leaves (if he leaves). No manager puts in a committee that can veto him man
As for a transfer committee independent of the manager, no-one has ever claimed such a thing, certainly not me. Woodward clearly stated that Ole is part of the committee, as is Phelan.
Regarding Maureen, we know he was granted almost everything the first 2 seasons, but in year 3 he was vetoed players in and out such as Martial, Pogba, Willian. Who vetoed them then if not the committee?
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First half, we played some of our best football this season, so whatever he was smoking, I wouldn´t mind a taste.
Everton dominated the second half because we lost control of the midfield - not because of the formation, but because we were too weak in duels - especially Fred and Fernandes who both looked tired. Not every game is decided by tactics.
Unbeaten in 8 games is sort of progress, knowing we got used to losing to Burnley, Watford etc. I don´t think United would have lost to Burnley at home if the game was played this weekend, tbh.
We have been better after the break, but will see if it lasts.
Should beat Derby, but I fear that we will struggle even with them.
City will be hard even if they have nothing to really play for. They want to beat us though for sure.
Great so let us wait till end of season and see how we fare before jumping on the back of the manager
You aren't seriously suggesting he's as good as, or can be as good as, Klopp, surely not. You aren't that deluded in your support surely.
Why not? Ole improvements? Or because we have Bruno?
Klopp or van Dijk?
Guardiola or De Bruyne?
Anyone who thinks Ole is as good a coach as Klopp is a raving lunatic. One has won the Bundesliga with an unfancied side and won the CL and going to win the PL. Other has won the Norwegian league.
If you’re right then thank good for that. I love legends for what they did as players but as pundits can’t stand them and you realise that playing the game doesn’t actually make you understand certain aspects of it. Although Gary Neville can assess matches articulately
How many of them actually said “let’s give Fred time” all have been pretty much mocking him for a year, their inability to identify players that can improve has always been blindingly obvious since they took the air ways. So I’d hate to have them involved in anything to do with transfers, they’d probably be the type to sign Freddy Adu at 16 for a world record £100m
Thisshittruth again?
We won an FA Cup by the way and I was there
We could do the same again
Gentlemen, you are making it seems as if I want anything less than that as a fan, we all want the best for the club as fans, but let's just be supportive till the end of the season, we gave other managers plenty of time, we can't keep on doing a Madrid thing and chopping and changing on each obstacle. I am sure Ole would have loved to have more players signed past summer, at least Bruno done earlier but you can't fault him, he's not the one who closes the deal etc etc, the bad situation of not having a proper direction from the board has had its toll on our transfer activity, this is a collective failure for this season and in my opinion Ole should not be the scapegoat.
It seems they are all learning, Woodward's recent statement saying they are preparing the right environment for Ole's plan etc etc shows that they will stick by him. First clearance had Lukaku, Sanchez, Young, Valencia, Smalling all out, imagine the next clearance would include Lingard, Perreira, Jones, etc) this in its own is proper progress as we are offloading useless players, bringing in youth, looking for the right experienced players in the market to lead the team and prepare for the youth to take over at some point by learning from those experienced players around them. Look at Greenwood and Williams how positive their contribution this season is, look at how Rashford has progressed this year.... Our squad is not yet complete but we are doing the damn clearout we have been begging for eversince we appointed the 3 previous mojos. Ole is not the perfect coach but again, it's not like we did not know who we were getting and what were his achievements. We talk as if Ole won the CL or PL before and he's on a downhill.
No it's not about comparing but at least giving the guy a fecking complete season and assess if he was good or not. Nobody cares about Klopp, for me the idea was to point out that even good managers like Klopp had to get the players who fit in their mentality to take Liverpool to where they are today, clear to you now?
Some interesting posts in here today. Good reading.
Not many people think Ole is a good coach, I gather. I don’t think he’s a good coach or a bad one. If his job is to make the team better and improve the squad, playing staff and general environment at the club then he’s doing well. Be nice if we played well more often and won more games but that may happen before too long.
Most of the negative stuff said about Ole sounds total nonsense, especially calls for particular coaches to replace him. BUT if we are going to replace Ole, something akin to the Watford approach would be interesting to try. No more five year plans or three year plans (no manager alive can get through that shite at this club). One year rolling contract. Appoint the most attacking coach we can get and sack him after a year unless we win. We’ll all know where we stand and the coach will have one job - to win immediately. It’s not impossible and it would be better than asking someone to do what Ole is doing but do it better.
Not many people think Ole is a good coach, I gather. I don’t think he’s a good coach or a bad one. If his job is to make the team better and improve the squad, playing staff and general environment at the club then he’s doing well. Be nice if we played well more often and won more games but that may happen before too long.
Most of the negative stuff said about Ole sounds total nonsense, especially calls for particular coaches to replace him. BUT if we are going to replace Ole, something akin to the Watford approach would be interesting to try. No more five year plans or three year plans (no manager alive can get through that shite at this club). One year rolling contract. Appoint the most attacking coach we can get and sack him after a year unless we win. We’ll all know where we stand and the coach will have one job - to win immediately. It’s not impossible and it would be better than asking someone to do what Ole is doing but do it better.
So, in effect scrap the new 180 turn we made, after the numerous other turns we've scrapped, discard the youth, buy for the short-term, and rule out attracting a host of managers as few will fancy the lack of security. No thanks.
Rather, celebrate the things Ole has done well and build on those with an exceptional coach.
Guardiola won the league without KDB for the majority of last season. Can’t remember Pellegrini being close. So Pep.
Klopp has won leagues without VVD and got a crap Liverpool team 4th and then to a Champs league final. So Klopp.
Ole or Bruno. BRUNO.
You do realise this next clearance includes two players he decided to give brand new contracts to? The thought process behind your backing is all wrong. He’s not learning and we aren’t improving. Real Madrid are currently top of their league. We need to stop mocking successful methods when we a flat track rubbish with our current way of running a football club.
Your “exceptional coach” will be hounded out of here before he can do anything worthwhile. And who’s choosing this exceptional coach anyway? Still, I’m sure it will work out fine.
I love the way the Ole in rebuild the United way supporters keep on referring to Madrid as an example to avoid.. hilarious.
i'll give you a fiver if you can find one person who thinks Ole is as good a coach as Klopp
Depends what you mean by "vetoed", doesn't it? He wanted certain players that he didn't get - and then he put a certain a spin on that, because he was well on his way to a classic meltdown scenario *. And Woodward followed up by issuing one of his briefings, saying that United are loaded - no problem there - it just has to be the right player (e.g. Varane). There is no evidence whatsoever that anything like a "transfer committee" (of which Mourinho himself must have been a member, right?) concluded that said targets should be "vetoed" for football reasons.
If anyone actually said "no, you can't have Maguire - because you've already spent enough on CBs, work with what you have" that would - obviously - have been Woodward.
If there was a committee (with genuine authority to overrule or veto the manager), why didn't Ed just come out and make it clear this was the case? "It's not my job to recruit players, we have a transfer committee for that - and Jose has to respect their decisions". Or - even more to the point - why didn't Jose say "I wanted certain reinforcements but was overruled by our transfer committee - nothing to do with me, I wanted the fecker(s)." Think Jose Mourinho, of all people, would NOT say just that if it was indeed what happened?
The quotes you have posted several times now aren't from a secret memo, are they? Furthermore, what Ole actually says in those quotes is that a change was needed, because things weren't working properly: whatever this committee (Phelan et al.) amounts to, it's clearly a new thing - something that was implemented after Ole got the job. If the committee was in place two years ago, I don't see any reason why Woodward (not to mention Mourinho himself) would want to keep that under wraps.
As for the nature of the committee (the one Ole refers to) - yes, I'll concede that it seems, based on what he says, that the members do have some actual authority. And this is indeed something new - it's not in line with an old school "British style" model. It still doesn't amount to a proper authority on the football side beyond the manager, though - it looks more like something Ole himself has introduced (and he still has the last word).
* He wasn't 100% happy with the previous summer either (Perisic and whatnot) - but he wasn't in meltdown mode then. At any rate, no mention of any transfer committee was made in connection with that window either.
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Word was they didn’t like his targets and then the ones they settled on they couldn’t get. Maguire being that.
And who were "they"?
The same people nobody actually knows who make decisions behind the scenes.
Unless you know who they are and want to enlighten us?
Right. But the current "committee" (as suggested by Ole's comments - see above) consists of known persons (coaches, scouts and the manager himself). And Ole clearly indicates that whatever this "committee" actually is, it has been introduced as a measure to improve the club's transfer dealings, as in: it's a new thing.
The people making decisions behind the scenes under Mourinho, on the other hand - well, that seems like a far more shadowy entity.
Who? Woodward is the only plausible candidate - but like I suggested above, I don't think he overruled Mourinho on football grounds. I rather think our business under Mourinho was conducted in exactly the same way as it had been under both Moyes and LVG, i.e. the manager presented his targets and the negotiators tried to land those targets (with varying degrees of success). There is zero indication that some kind of "committee" (again, who would have been on it?) had anything to do with ins and outs at United.
The relationship between Mourinho and Ed seems to have soured at a point. That sufficiently explains Mourinho's comments and Woodward's briefing about Varane, etc. There's no reason to think a shadowy group of decision makers were working behind the scenes. Again, if an actual committee (of some kind) in effect blocked Mourinho's preferred targets - why hasn't he said anything about this? And how long has this shadowy group been around? Did they operate under LVG as well? Both Mourinho and LVG have made comments about how United was run (during their time in charge) - none of it flattering.
But they haven't said anything about an authority on the football side making things difficult for them - on the contrary, the implication has been that Woodward doesn't know anything about football, doesn't care about football - only about the proverbial bottom line.
Now you're just making shit up again that are in complete disagreement with what Woodward has said. Or are you getting completely confused here @Chesterlestreet and thinking the quote are from Ole? Appears so re-reading your post. That entire quoted passage was from from Woodward.
It's pretty simple stuff pal. The committee can veto a player (confirmed by Woodward not Ole), Ole can also veto a player (confirmed by Woodward not Ole) as the club don't want to force players on the manager because as in Woodward's own words "the manager won't play them". And in your bizarre scenario, why would Ole introduce this himself so someone can overrule him? It's nonsensical if you even think about it for 2 seconds.
The fact that you think Ole said those quotes makes me feel you didn't bother to actual think about it as you typed out your reply and all you're doing is denying facts and trying to form your own truth that makes absolutely zero sense.
WOODWARD man, not fecking Ole
Woodward is the one talking, have you even given this a second of thought? The following is all Woodward and the most important line of all which you need to read very closely if you even want to understand this and understand that THE CLUB put it in place, not any manager is:
“The manager has a veto on a player - we would never sign a player the manager wouldn't want because he wouldn't play him. But we also feel the recruitment department, the football experts, should have a veto too."
Right mate, again... from Ed's own mouth:
‘It is true that there was a difference of opinion on one or two players between the manager and the recruitment department,’ Woodward told United We Stand. ‘Sometimes I have to be one who delivers the ‘no’, which isn’t easy, because our natural tendency is to back the manager in every possible circumstance, but we have to listen to the recruitment experts too’.
Are you a climate denier also? Did we not land on the moon?
We know that a committee was put in place in Summer 2018, Ed has spoken about it and we know there was suddenly a massive change in the club targets. No longer were the likes of Matic or Willian on the menu. You say Mourinho didn't get it all before either as he wanted Perisic, absolutely, but that was clearly based on Inter's demands, not anyone overruling him. LVG and Mourinho got a smörgåsbord of their favourite players for 4 years until a significant change was made with recruitment.
In the previous Summer we still bought Lukaku, Matic, Lindelöf... all Mourinho favourite. Then suddenly we buy one young lad and Fred, who Mourinho appeared to feel "meh" about and reports pop up everywhere saying Mourinho wanted to sell Pogba, Martial and buy the likes of Willian but was vetoed.
Then why are some United fans trying to keep someone who is not a good coach as the best at United? Aren't we the biggest club in the world? Why are we accepting such mediocrity?
Probably because we've switched Managers a lot lately with very little success and although Oles results have been somewhat erratic he is doing a decent job of rebuilding the team. There is no guarantee that the Manager we bring in to replace Ole would do well at rebuilding. Personally, i'd be happy giving Ole another Season so long as he's backed this Summer. Give him a chance to continue the squad rebuild and if he cannot improve our results then fair fecks. Time to bring in a better Manager who will have a significantly better team than we did back when Ole took over.
Granted this is all subjective and not everyone will agree, such is the nature of being a supporter.
I'll take that as a no then
Well put.
You're right it is subjective so the only way to fairly judge him is on the objective facts of his tenure.
We are the worst off we've ever been under any manager in the PL, and if he doesn't get us CL he needs to go as that is the metric every previous manager has been held to. If he gets CL he will get another season but objectively speaking if he hasn't imprinted any discernable style onto us by now I doubt another season and another 300m will change that.
You can be a good coach without being as good as Klopp.
Results this Season don't really mean much to me in all honesty. We were always going to have an erratic season given the sheer scale of squad upheaval. We've changed our first team spine and brought in a number of young, fairly inexperienced players. It was bound to take time for the squad to find it's feet and start to move forward. I'm starting to see the signs of improvement in our play and the majority of our players are improving.
Our signings have all been successful with the exception of perhaps James (although I wasn't expecting much from him and think he's been overplayed due to our injuries to Martial/Rashford). I see signs of the team finally moving in the right direction and I've been fairly negative about the club since Sir Alex retired.
I don't think Ole is going to bring us a title, we're a few years away from that and I don't think he'll be given the time. But I do think he'll play a huge part in United being resurrected as the team rebuild seems good. I actually fancy us to get a trophy this season. Feels good to be a United fan again.
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