Has Ole shown visible progress over 1 season, like Klopp did?
No, we're exactly where we were when he took over despite him spending £200m+ on new players.
You need to go and calm down, pal.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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Has Ole shown visible progress over 1 season, like Klopp did?
No, we're exactly where we were when he took over despite him spending £200m+ on new players.
You need to go and calm down, pal.
We have one?
What we know is that there was some talk about the likes of Butt being involved (his supposed role was to recommend players already in our ranks who might fill roles you'd otherwise look elsewhere for, i.e. academy products who were ready to take the step up).
Other than that, the only tangible thing I've seen is that Ole himself has stated (see above) explicitly that he has the last word on who's brought in.
The idea that an actual "transfer committee" vetoed Maguire seems unfounded. If that's actually true, this "committee" was clearly formed before Ole was appointed, and who might be on it is anyone's guess. It seems likely that Jose wanted Maguire (and whoever else) but didn't get him for whatever reasons - but that a "transfer committee" made an informed decision to nix that deal is based on nothing at all as far as I know.
Um, Klopp did improve them over one season. The details were given very clearly above. There was visible progress and improvement each season until it clicked, whereas Ole is showing nothing but treading water.
Yeah, I also wasn't aware we had one. The poster spoke as if it was well known though, so a bit confused.
Yes actually. Even if I don't think Ole is the right man.
Under Jose, we were getting outrun by opponents and outplayed in bigger games.
Under Ole, we are alot more competitive in big games.
The players morale looks good, the team unity is better and heck some of the players have improved too.
If you are saying he spent £200 plus then since hes spent £200m our team has improved actually.
Treading water may be your opinion. It certainly isn't fact. We are 3rd in the table taken from game 12 onwards this season, compared to 9th up to that point. Overall, it might add up to only 5th at the moment, but there is definite progress whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.
If we have a transfer committee of the sort, say, Liverpool used to have - this has been kept a secret from the public as far as I know.
And Ole's own comments would seem to contradict it. The Liverpool committee had actual powers beyond the manager, which ours - if it exists - can't have.
Ole probably consults with numerous people (scouts, coaches, whathaveya) as anyone would - but as far as anyone knows, he's a traditional British style manager (last of a dying breed) in the sense that he ultimately calls the shots on ins and outs. So-called "head coach" and DOF rolled into one - which has been the case in the entire Glazer era (and before that too, of course).
Jose's comments about being a "head coach" can't be taken literally. It's Jose. He didn't get what he wanted, and more importantly found himself struggling to deliver results, so he made a snide remark to protect his arse - as he would. Doesn't mean any actual authority on the football side overruled him in the sense implied by some.
Did he have one full season yet? Where was the progress in Klopp's 8th finish compared to Rodgers 6th finish? If you call this progress you need a reality check, the progress was made over the course of 5 seasons, and this is a top manager we're talking about, already proven in the Bundesliga. Next time it's better to back your "progress claim" with at least some interesting insight.
Do we even have a transfer committee installed?
I remember discussions taking place last year involving Rio, Fletch, Evra, and I believe Scholes was also approached, but it never extended beyond words unless I'm mistaken.
"Meh", we had a super shit start to the season granted, but the "3rd in the table since game" stat is something of a red herring @shaky (as it often is when we start handpicking dates to fit our argument). We've still only been amassing points at a miserable 1.7 points per game between game 12-28, and increase of just 0.52 points per game over that first 11 games. That x 38 games a shite 64 points that in almost every Premier League season get you a 6th position.
Fail to win vs. City and Spurs in our next two games and we're picking up just 1.52 points between games 12-30.
We're 3rd in that time spell because our rivals have been fecking miserable and because you've picked dates that fit in nicely with your argument, not because we are showing any definite signs of progress as you are trying to make out.
Come back after 38 games and we'll see then, hopefully it'll be an argument you can genuinely make then.
Absolute travesty of a post
getting to a Europa League final and a domestic cup final with minimal spend and squad transition is a success, not winning the competition doesn't account for much because it shows that Klopp is an effective manager even when the resources are at best minimal. To simplify it even further, if Klopp got to two finals with a weakened ridiculous squad, it's no suprise when he began to materialize his own team that they are on course to win the league / having won a UCL trophy. Because despite Liverpool spending money Jürgen always had the potential and capabilities to win top honours, can the same be said for our current manager ?Compare this to the concensus with Solskjaer and fans only rate Ole if we spend 500 million before he can be adequately judged on his accountability as a manager of the team. This is almost evidently the same argument that supported the likes of Mourinho. Giving a manager time doesn't equate to a successful rebuild, there are short term goals within the process of restructuring a team that the manager needs to achieve to measure their present success. This not not only allow us to compete at a relevant level but also provides commercial sustainability (look at the confides of the kit deal).
Some of the levels of support for Solskjaer is an absolute embarrassment, this isn't a rebuild of Leicester or Tottenham we are historically the biggest club in English football but many fans have a small impoverished mentality. There is nothing about Solskjaer's management to suggest he will be a long term success here, that was completely different with Klopp, hence SAF said Liverpool would win the league with him at the helm. I'd rather take the opinion of the best manager since footballs inception compared to sentimentality of fans.
If Ole gets top four he stays, if we miss out he should go.
@Fredo, Klopp took over Rodgers team mid-season in 12th, not fecking 6th, and he took them 4 places up the league by the end of the season. Then he took them a further 4 places up the league in his first full season. If you don't call that progress, then it's YOU who needs the reality check pal.
It did not as far as I know - nothing official has been announced.
And again, Ole has stated recently in no uncertain terms that he has the last word on transfers.
With regard to the business with Maguire (and possible other targets) during Jose's last window, I'd sum that up as follows:
The player(s) Jose had targeted weren’t made available to him. Which, in turn, could be explained in any number of ways: a) too expensive as per some definition or other, b) too much hassle with the deal(s) as such, c) Ed and Jose falling out, d) genuine incompetence on the part of the people trying to make the deal happen, e) boue.
None of it indicates that Jose was overruled as the number one decision maker on the football side. The latter is his spin on it (“I’m just a coach”). The corresponding spin on Ed’s side is the “briefing” indicating that we would’ve gladly paid 100m for Varane.
It means nothing - just posturing/damage control for personal reasons, it doesn’t indicate that the manager is not, in fact, in charge of recruitment: yet again, Ole has recently said explicitly that he is in charge of recruitment.
Looking back Klopps progress was pretty tangible over the last say 4 or 5 years, but for a long time he had plenty of critics and doubters.
Not much difference to Ole in a way, the only obvious difference (and it is a big difference) is that Klopp had his record with Dortmund to fall back on whilst he altered and sorted his squad out.
If we get top four or win the Europa league whilst being close to it, and play the kind of football we’ve played the past few weeks, I’m sure even most of Ole’s biggest doubters will be happy.
It’s just a big if at the moment.
Not much difference to Ole in a way, the only obvious difference (and it is a big difference) is that Klopp had his record with Dortmund to fall back on whilst he altered and sorted his squad out.
If we get top four or win the Europa league whilst being close to it, and play the kind of football we’ve played the past few weeks, I’m sure even most of Ole’s biggest doubters will be happy.
It’s just a big if at the moment.
Chameleon, the idea was to compare their starts, and despite Klopp's boasting a far better managerial record, he struggled with Liverpool at first and over 5 seasons he made them click, so the idea is that even top managers need the right squad to compete on all fronts. We underachieved with a thin squad ravaged by injuries and the core player of this squad was injured/out for a while (Pogba). I don't know why people were expecting us to overachieve with this squad since the beginning of the season. Compare our players on paper to the top 4 club players and tell me who would make their squads, it's just a matter of accepting our current status and working to build up. We have a somehow solid backline now with Maguire and AWB (which we have been lacking for many seasons now), our midfield looks a bit better (rejuvenated Fred, class Bruno, hardworking Scott), strikers, well we don't have the best but we don't have the worst either, so there is progress taking place and this process will not take us to the top positions in 1 season, so trust the process. 200 million has been spent yes but almost half of the 200 million was to get a defender, so I am not really understanding what you wanted to say in your 200 mil statement.
Progress is made over the 5 years he's been there, not because he took them 4 places up in a season where they threw the towel under Rodgers. Ole took the same squad from Jose and beat the best starting record at the club, what did it mean for us this season? I am not taking anything away from Klopp as he is just a better manager, but to say that his impact was direct etc is just too much. Klopp has spent 424 million pounds to get this squad, 23 players till he was able to implement the tactics, vision and football LFC are currently playing. If progress is only made by the finishing position, then let us wait till end of this season and judge Ole, we finished 6th last year, so anything better than 6 this season should be considered progress based on your logic.
Took over mid-season: 12th
Finished: 8th
First full season: 4th
Second full season: 4th
Third full season: 2nd
Fourth full season: 1st
Tangible progress every single step of the way @Fredo and @Dec9003 but you both know this already.
I won't bring the win-percentage or points totals into it cause then it gets embarrassing for anyone making this daft comparison.
So nothing like Ole currently who:
Took over mid-season: 6th
Finished: 6th
First full-season: currently joint 5th-6th (maybe lower if Sheff U win their game in hand).
Watford are 1st in the table taken from game 28 onwards.
Absolute travesty of a post
Compare this to the concensus with Solskjaer and fans only rate Ole if we spend 500 million before he can be adequately judged on his accountability as a manager of the team. This is almost evidently the same argument that supported the likes of Mourinho. Giving a manager time doesn't equate to a successful rebuild, there are short term goals within the process of restructuring a team that the manager needs to achieve to measure their present success. This not not only allow us to compete at a relevant level but also provides commercial sustainability (look at the confides of the kit deal).
Some of the levels of support for Solskjaer is an absolute embarrassment, this isn't a rebuild of Leicester or Tottenham we are historically the biggest club in English football but many fans have a small impoverished mentality. There is nothing about Solskjaer's management to suggest he will be a long term success here, that was completely different with Klopp, hence SAF said Liverpool would win the league with him at the helm. I'd rather take the opinion of the best manager since footballs inception compared to sentimentality of fans.
If Ole gets top four he stays, if we miss out he should go.
"not winning the competition doesn't account for much because it shows that Klopp is an effective manager even when the resources are at best minimal."
Okay so Ole is also good because he dealt with a thin/injured squad and is still keeping us in top4 chance, EL and League cup?
Again, nobody is saying that no progress was made, but it didn't come over 2 months, 3 months, etc... 424 million pounds spent, big clear-out, 23 players signed.
Hang on @Chesterlestreet & @Random Task @Thisistheone this has been confirmed.* I'm not just making things up ffs.
The committee is made up of:
Head Coach (Ole), Assistant Manager (Mike Shorts), Technical Chief Scout (currently Mick Court), Head of Global Scouting (currently Marcel Bout) and Chief Scout (currently Jim Lawlor).
Each man has a vote, each man has a veto.
Ole has never said the bolded either, just that he has final say, cause in essence he does as he has a veto so no-one comes in or out without his final ok.
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Erm, the whole fecking point was that massive progress WAS made over a matter of months, within 20 months he took them from 12th to 4th, and with nothing like that spend in bold and nothing like Ole's current spend.
In almost 15 months Ole has taken United from 6 to 6.
Is that why he took of a striker for a defender in order to play with 5 at the back with 10 minutes to go? And as far as Poch goes answer this honest question
If both Ole and Poch were unemployed right now which out of the 2 would end up managing a big club. Be honest.
You can see at the very tail end of my post if we got top four, Ole deserves time it would be illogical to sack him having met that league objective. If the club reaches the europa league finals and a domestic competition final it might not be a success objectively for the club but it's definitely a form of success for Solskjaer, I would give him credit on that basis entirely.
There is a difference though in this comparison with Liverpool as Klopp had a far worse team than the one Ole inherited and hadn't spent a dime on incomings. Solskjaer is already 200 million deep so he needs something to show for it. If we accredit Klopp for finishing 8th in his first season despite not having a full season than the same should be for Ole meaning he has a 6th place finish to his name. If after finishing 6th last season we don't finish 4th despite investment that's already a decline in progression.
Woodward might be spewing out all this longevity nonsense but I think deep down Solskjaer knows he as well as the team needs results. The Glazers are just as cut throat as an Abramovic / Perez they just wait for it to be financially viable to avoid further compensatory fees.
I do know it already, if you read the first line of my post I actually say it.
I think my post was fair and balanced, if you think it’s daft then that’s up to you.
"Not much different to Ole" was not fair and balanced at all, it's blinkered.
First full 2 seasons (transfers post season end in 2016 and the 2017 transfers) he signs the following players
| Sadio Mané | Southampton | £30,000,000 | 28 June 2016 |
| Loris Karius | Mainz 05 | £4,700,000 | 1 July 2016 |
| Joël Matip | Free Transfer | Free | 1 July 2016 |
| Ragnar Klavan | Augsburg | £4,200,000 | 20 July 2016 |
| Alex Manninger | Free Transfer | Free | 22 July 2016 |
| Georginio Wijnaldum | Newcastle United | £25,000,000 * | 22 July 2016 |
| Mohamed Salah | Roma | £43,900,000 * | 22 June 2017 |
| Dominic Solanke | Chelsea | £4,000,000 * | 1 July 2017 |
| Andy Robertson | Hull City | £10,000,000 * | 21 July 2017 |
| Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain | Arsenal | £35,000,000 | 31 August 2017 |
6 players signed first season, 4 players signed the second season.
Mane, Matip, Wijnaldum, Salah, Robertson, Oxe are 5 guaranteed starters (bar ox) in the current season, so I wish you understand what is meant by progress. This is half of the LFC squad that is playing today, acquired 3 seasons ago.
Compare this to Ole's first season signings, Maguire, AWB, James. Bruno and Odion cannot be judged now as they joined mid-season, you will not see the same big progress when we were only able to strengthen the defense in summer and we managed to get a good midfielder in Jan and plus the season is not over, maybe we will jump to 4th and then I will see your posts talking about about our progress
Maybe because Martial was carrying an injury (hamstring if I recall) and the fact that Everton became really dangerous in the final 10 minutes?
To answer you, Poch would be the one to get it but again he hasn't been approached by any big club yet despite so many big clubs being in crisis....
So @Fredo first full season he spends a shit tonne less than Ole and takes a team he took over mid-season in 12th to 4th, amassing 76 points.
Ole spends a shit tonne more and takes a team he took over mid-season in 6th to currently 5-6th, amassing a pathetic projected 57 points.
Yup, pretty much the same. You guys invoking Klopp do yourselves absolutely no favours.
I think you’ve misunderstood me, I don’t think they’ve neccesarily done a similar job so far (Klopp had them top four in his first full season, it’s yet to be seen if we can do this) the similarity was in how Klopp was doubted and Ole is being doubted.
Like I said, Klopp had his record to fall back on, Ole doesn’t.
Please don’t call me blinkered without understanding what I’ve said.
You’ve been putting people on blast for the past few days mate, if you want to have a reasonable chat about Ole and United I’m happy to, if not I’m sure someone else will argue endlessly with you.
How about you judge over the same time period. Give Ole will the end of the season and then judge him.
If he gets top 4 then its progress, if he doesn't then he needs to go.
That post is actually bad for Ole. It shows that Klop only spent 153m in two seasons showing progress were as Ole has already spent more than 200 in one season with no progress.First full 2 seasons (transfers post season end in 2016 and the 2017 transfers) he signs the following players
Sadio Mané Southampton £30,000,000 28 June 2016 Loris Karius Mainz 05 £4,700,000 1 July 2016 Joël Matip Free Transfer Free 1 July 2016 Ragnar Klavan Augsburg £4,200,000 20 July 2016 Alex Manninger Free Transfer Free 22 July 2016 Georginio Wijnaldum Newcastle United £25,000,000 * 22 July 2016 Mohamed Salah Roma £43,900,000 * 22 June 2017 Dominic Solanke Chelsea £4,000,000 * 1 July 2017 Andy Robertson Hull City £10,000,000 * 21 July 2017 Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain Arsenal £35,000,000 31 August 2017
6 players signed first season, 4 players signed the second season.
Mane, Matip, Wijnaldum, Salah, Robertson, Oxe are 5 guaranteed starters (bar ox) in the current season, so I wish you understand what is meant by progress. This is half of the LFC squad that is playing today, acquired 3 seasons ago.
Compare this to Ole's first season signings, Maguire, AWB, James. Bruno and Odion cannot be judged now as they joined mid-season, you will not see the same big progress when we were only able to strengthen the defense in summer and we managed to get a good midfielder in Jan and plus the season is not over, maybe we will jump to 4th and then I will see your posts talking about about our progress
Actually, since he spent the £200m there has been progress. He only spent £200m as of January.
Ole reminds me so much of Di Matteo. He is tactical not a brilliant manager, but if you give him the right players, he will do well.
I want more than that from my manager. If Nagelsman and Pochettino are attainable in the summer, they have a better footballing philosophy and promote youth development. It would be perhaps one of the worst decisions to overlook them to keep Ole.
Funny thing is that, even though I don’t think highly of Ole as a manager, I would prefer to keep him over Allegri, Simione and managers that has boring uninspiring tactics. We already have a manager here that offers that and at least he understands United DNA. Give him the right players and we could do what Di Matteo accomplished at Chelsea. Depends on how lucky we are to be honest.
I want more than that from my manager. If Nagelsman and Pochettino are attainable in the summer, they have a better footballing philosophy and promote youth development. It would be perhaps one of the worst decisions to overlook them to keep Ole.
Funny thing is that, even though I don’t think highly of Ole as a manager, I would prefer to keep him over Allegri, Simione and managers that has boring uninspiring tactics. We already have a manager here that offers that and at least he understands United DNA. Give him the right players and we could do what Di Matteo accomplished at Chelsea. Depends on how lucky we are to be honest.
Well every single manager in the World is "doubted" so they are all similar to Klopp or Ole in that way. But Klopp had his side picking up 76 points in his first full season whereas Ole will be lucky to get 60, Klopp spent a hell of a lot less doing so also.
You said we were going for the win and not settling for draw. We took off a striker for a defender with 10 minutes to go. Poch hasnt been approached by a big club maybe that's because he is lined up for us in the summer.
True. Bruno has been massive so far.
Gentlemen, 200 Million, 95 goes to Maguire because Leicester are fecking cnuts and we were in deep need to buy, so that's half of the transfer money spent on one player, but yeah sure let's blame Ole because he took your family's money and used it to buy Maguire...
The market value in 2016-17 is different to what it is today, and everytime we are linked to a player we have to pay at least 20 mil extra just because we are Manchester United.
So in terms of amount spent, your argument is pointless when half of it went on one single player.
Top 4 is not progress unless we finish with more than 66 points.
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