Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[KekiZeki]

Klopp’s first full season: in a title race at xmas, finished 4th.

SAF’s first full season: 2nd

Stop chatting shit la’

It depends what team you take over, and we didn't win titles with sir Alext was a process to build it, if you think that any manager would fix this team in the time Ole has had you're the one who is "chattin shit".

 

[KekiZeki]

Anyone would need time and they need to get it somewhere, what better place than a club you're a legend of?

 

[b82REZ]

Klopp didn't inherit as much deadwood. Prior to him Rodgers was quite decent manager, he still is, the team he left pretty much suited the style of play Klopp likes. It took some minor tweeks but even so he didn't get them to CL right away.

Not true

You're right, I agree completely, we shouldn't compare two managers in two different clubs with different mentalities, but my point was not to compare two of them as managers but to say that opposing fans will laugh at anyone who is not getting results right away, and no one, not even great sir Alex Ferguson, got great results right away. The only way to get it is to go to already top side who just had a bit of a slump and we're not it, not anymore. We must rebuild.

Yes he did.

Stop with ridiculous comparisons and mental gymnastics to try and defend Solksjaer, it's actually weakening your point as you're comparing him to managers that have done much better jobs than him.

 

[mancan92]

I have not forgot his record in Bundesliga. But that has nothing to do with Liverpool. In Liverpool, he took time, he made right decision, got rid of lots of players and bought lot aswell. Step by step he made his team stronger and stronger and is now getting credit for the work started 4 years ago.

First year he bought 7players, excluding youth.
Second year he bought 5 players excluding young
Third year he bought 4 players excluding young
Forth year he bough less and this year he only bought 2 player excluding youth

That is more then 20 first team players in almost 5 years. If he was satisfied with his squad he would have bought very little. Looking at last game against Tottenham only Henderson and Firminho were there when Klopp arrived of those who started. So he did bulid that team and as you can see, it took 4 years to make it work so titles could be won. It wasn't fixed after a year.

Wait so a managers previous record has nothing to do with how much leway they should be given?

Terrible post.

 

[Member 113277]

Every team in the so called top six besides probably Liverpool had injuries. That’s no excuse. Who was all giddy before the start of the season and saying they happy with the squad. When it was clear after selling our £75m striker and letting Herrera go that we were players short in vital positions.

You're right that we are badly exposed in midfield and that needs fixing very quickly (starting this window), but for the record YOY after match #22, our forward line has scored more goals without our £75m striker, than with him - personally I'm pleased to see the back of him and think it was a good decision that allowed Rashford to grow this season.

Also, what OGS thinks and says are very probably different things - even if he was desperately unhappy about failing to replace Hererra and Fellaini (and I claim no knowledge of whether ths is so), would a senior manager in an organisation go against the company line or make statements that would be likely to demotive/excuse failure?

Having worked as a senior manager in a plc, I can tell you from direct experience that the answer is no, unless you wish to destabilise those around you and ultimately your own job.

JM let it be known that he was unhappy not to have signed a CB and other supporting comments - that didn't work out so well, did it?

 

[Bojan11]

You're right that we are badly exposed in midfield and that needs fixing very quickly (starting this window), but for the record YOY after match #22, our forward line has scored more goals without our £75m striker, than with him - personally I'm pleased to see the back of him and think it was a good decision that allowed Rashford to grow this season.

Also, what OGS thinks and says are very probably different things - even if he was desperately unhappy about failing to replace Hererra and Fellaini (and I claim no knowledge of whether ths is so), would a senior manager in an organisation go against the company line or make statements that would be likely to demotive/excuse failure?

Having worked as a senior manager in a plc, I can tell you from direct experience that the answer is no, unless you wish to destabilise those around you and ultimately your own job.

JM let it be known that he was unhappy not to have signed a CB and other supporting comments - that didn't work out so well, did it?

Yeah because it’s worked out brilliant for Ole so far with the lack of midfield options.

If Ole put pressure on the owners, what they going to do? Sack him and he gets a pay off or probably sign the players he needs. Where as now they most likely going to sack him unless we somehow get top four at the end of the season. Maybe signing a midfielder and not persisting with Lingard all season as number 10 then maybe results might have been different.

JM moans everywhere he goes. Nobody would take notice of that. Ole is a club legend and his words would have meant something. Thanks for telling me where you work like that has anything to do with it.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It depends what team you take over, and we didn't win titles with sir Alext was a process to build it, if you think that any manager would fix this team in the time Ole has had you're the one who is "chattin shit".

Where do all these bizarre acolytes keep popping up from that can't have a critical thought regarding our manager? They can't all be from Norway can they?

Is there any argument you have that doesn't completely fall apart at the first sign of scrutiny?

@KekiZeki: "If you asked opposing fans was Klopp good for Liverpool after his first season most would laugh and say he's just like their previous managers. It takes time to get results."

Reply: Klopp’s first full season had a Premier League win-rate of 58%.

After being defeated on angle number 1 KekiZeki moves on to another angle: "ok ok, Klopp didn't inherit as much deadwood. Prior to him Rodgers was quite decent manager, he still is, the team he left pretty much suited the style of play Klopp likes. It took some minor tweeks but even so he didn't get them to CL right away."

Reply: Klopp did get them to the CL right away, and as for deadwood, his first 11 in his first game was:
Mignolet, Clyne, Skrtel, Sakho, Moreno, Leiva, Can, Milner, Lallana (replaced by Allen), Coutinho (replaced by Ibe), Origi

After being defeated on angle number 2, he moves onto Sir Alex: "ok ok, no one, not even great sir Alex Ferguson, got great results right away."

Reply: Sir Alex had us finish 2nd in his first full season.

After another defeat, it's angle number 3 and Sir Alex again: "It depends what team you take over, and we didn't win titles with sir Alext was a process to build it"

Reply: These comparisons to great managers would be tiresome even if they held weight, but they don't, not one ounce.
• Klopp took over a team that finished 6th the previous season and was 10th when he took charge mid-season.
• Sir Alex took over a team that finished 4th the previous season and was 21st when he took charge mid-season.
• Ole took over a team that finished 2nd the previous season and was 6th when he took charge mid-season.

Defending Ole by pointing to SAF and Klopp is beyond stupid, first off, no-one expects Ole or any other United manager to win trophies this or next season, we know it'll be a process. All that is expected is progress, both with the squad and on the pitch. After 13 months in the job, even forgetting their previous records, both Klopp and SAF had that.

Please just start defending Ole by focusing on the positives and there are some, Rashford, Greenwood, Williams, Fred. Don't make a fool of yourself and a mockery of the genius of Sir Alex.

 

[KekiZeki]

Where do all these bizarre acolytes keep popping up from that can't have a critical thought regarding our manager? They can't all be from Norway can they?

Is there any argument you have that doesn't completely fall apart at the first sign of scrutiny?

@KekiZeki: "If you asked opposing fans was Klopp good for Liverpool after his first season most would laugh and say he's just like their previous managers. It takes time to get results."

Reply: Klopp’s first full season had a Premier League win-rate of 58%.

After being defeated on angle number 1 KekiZeki moves on to another angle: "ok ok, Klopp didn't inherit as much deadwood. Prior to him Rodgers was quite decent manager, he still is, the team he left pretty much suited the style of play Klopp likes. It took some minor tweeks but even so he didn't get them to CL right away."

Reply: Klopp did get them to the CL right away, and as for deadwood, his first 11 in his first game was:
Mignolet, Clyne, Skrtel, Sakho, Moreno, Leiva, Can, Milner, Lallana (replaced by Allen), Coutinho (replaced by Ibe), Origi

After being defeated on angle number 2, he moves onto Sir Alex: "ok ok, no one, not even great sir Alex Ferguson, got great results right away."

Reply: Sir Alex had us finish 2nd in his first full season.

After another defeat, it's angle number 3 and Sir Alex again: "It depends what team you take over, and we didn't win titles with sir Alext was a process to build it"

Reply: These comparisons to great managers would be tiresome even if they held weight, but they don't, not one ounce.
• Klopp took over a team that finished 6th the previous season and was 10th when he took charge mid-season.
• Sir Alex took over a team that finished 4th the previous season and was 21st when he took charge mid-season.
• Ole took over a team that finished 2nd the previous season and was 6th when he took charge mid-season.

Defending Ole by pointing to SAF and Klopp is beyond stupid, first off, no-one expects Ole or any other United manager to win trophies this or next season, we know it'll be a process. All that is expected is progress, both with the squad and on the pitch. After 13 months in the job, even forgetting their previous records, both Klopp and SAF had that.

Please just start defending Ole by focusing on the positives and there are some, Rashford, Greenwood, Williams, Fred. Don't make a fool of yourself and a mockery of the genius of Sir Alex.

I never mocked sir Alex if I was making a point, but if you went back in history we had embarrasing "Ferguson out" idiots, no manager is a success immediatly. Now, I never said Ole will achieve what SAF did, if he got 5'th of his achievements we'd consider him a great success, but the thing is, if we keep changing managers we'll never develop a style of play.
I am glad you see some positives in Solskjaer's work, a lot here would rather us lose the next game if it means Solskjaer out. Giving youth a chance is certainly something he'd do in the future as well I expect, but for me clearing out deadwood is just as important if not more important. No big manager ever put up attitude in his players, SAF had some hard-headed players in his time but he never lost authority. We, lately, seem to have given in to player power and that must change. In that way Klopp had it easier than any manager who came here, we have had more high end players, "stars" who were second guessing managers, Pogba being one of them, and that simply doesn't work out in the long run.

 

[KekiZeki]

Not true


Yes he did.

Stop with ridiculous comparisons and mental gymnastics to try and defend Solksjaer, it's actually weakening your point as you're comparing him to managers that have done much better jobs than him.

If I said give Solskjaer five years you'd call me an idiot. When Klopp took over in Liverpool he said in 4 years club will win something. Their success was quicker but he wasn't dumb enough to name what that title will be, he knew full well that he might need more time. I personally believe in 3 years we'd have titles under Solskjaer but that doens't mean it's a guarantee. It will depend on how quick we can get unwanted players out, wanted players in, who can we get, the status of our competition etc. but I firmly believe we now have a manager who'd get us back on our feet.

Sorry if I am not going to look at our results, compare them with the times we had winning teams and just say "not good enough" and yern about the time passed because you can do it in early stages of any new manager. New success is in the future, we'll get there, let's enjoy the ride and watch our youth improves every season. I believe Solskjaer has enough respect for the club to step down on his own if he sees he can't take the club further, he's not a career manager, he's here as he loves the club.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I never mocked sir Alex if I was making a point, but if you went back in history we had embarrasing "Ferguson out" idiots, no manager is a success immediatly. Now, I never said Ole will achieve what SAF did, if he got 5'th of his achievements we'd consider him a great success, but the thing is, if we keep changing managers we'll never develop a style of play.
I am glad you see some positives in Solskjaer's work, a lot here would rather us lose the next game if it means Solskjaer out. Giving youth a chance is certainly something he'd do in the future as well I expect, but for me clearing out deadwood is just as important if not more important. No big manager ever put up attitude in his players, SAF had some hard-headed players in his time but he never lost authority. We, lately, seem to have given in to player power and that must change. In that way Klopp had it easier than any manager who came here, we have had more high end players, "stars" who were second guessing managers, Pogba being one of them, and that simply doesn't work out in the long run.

You almost had it, but just couldn't help yourself.

No, Klopp did not have an easier job at Liverpool unless you make your brain jump through hoops to believe so. All jobs have their issues.

 

[KekiZeki]

You almost had it, but just couldn't help yourself.

No, Klopp did not have an easier job at Liverpool unless you make your brain jump through to believe so.

I said in one aspect, and that was getting the respect of the players. The only "troublemaker" there was Sakho but he was easy to get rid of. Their players knew they were average but ours usually came in with a high price tag and expected to be winning things with us very quickly. When that doesn't happen they tend to start questioning the manager. You can't say players we've had lately had a good attitude towards the game, can you?

 

[passing-wind]

I have not forgot his record in Bundesliga. But that has nothing to do with Liverpool. In Liverpool, he took time, he made right decision, got rid of lots of players and bought lot aswell. Step by step he made his team stronger and stronger and is now getting credit for the work started 4 years ago.

First year he bought 7players, excluding youth.
Second year he bought 5 players excluding young
Third year he bought 4 players excluding young
Forth year he bough less and this year he only bought 2 player excluding youth

That is more then 20 first team players in almost 5 years. If he was satisfied with his squad he would have bought very little. Looking at last game against Tottenham only Henderson and Firminho were there when Klopp arrived of those who started. So he did bulid that team and as you can see, it took 4 years to make it work so titles could be won. It wasn't fixed after a year.

Ths problem with your argument is it lacks rational thesis, your assimilating that Klopp's ability to cultivate his team to win has nothing to do with his capabilities as a manager but instead all to do with the allocation time. It's as if there's a distinction between Klopp being the world's best manager and time. "Time" as a commodity doesn't guarantee success, a capable manager does.

If the time conundrum was a conduit to automatically become successful then Eddie Howe and Sean Dyche would be playing in the champions league this season and competing for league by this logic. To discredit Klopp's previous accomplishments with Dortmund is unwise, why would our very own Sir Alex make the statement that Liverpool would win the league before Jürgen even managed a game in England ? I didn't hear Sir Alex make such comments since Solskjaer's been appointed ...

 

[passing-wind]

No we can't. They finished 8th in the 15/16 season, with standards at season end reflected well here:

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=328774.msg14730234#msg14730234

Klopp's squad was, as is Ole's, young, and he needed 3 years to mature the squad and acquire top talent before challenging for the title. As with Ole, he couldn't achieve consistency without fixing fundamental squad issues.. no one can.

Well that's a contradiction Klopp also got to a domestic final as well as the Europa League finals in that season he finished 8th taking over in October. You cannot reach any finals without being consistent. So Klopp in his first season at Liverpool already laid the groundwork to build a consistent team, he didn't just zap his fingers buying an umpteenth amount of players and start winning.

Also Jürgen deserves more respect what world class players did Liverpool buy aside VVD ? Salah from Roma was decent coached to success, Robertson from Hull was decent coached to success, Mane Southampton decent coached to success, same with Fabinho. Where was Trent before Klopp ? playing central midfield or something I'm unsure. The point is Klopp has taken them to a different level, when a manager can make consistent use out of a Wjnaldum, Milner or Henderson you know they are elite in their field. Solskjaer is about as ridiculous as half the fans comparing himself with Klopp it's embarrassing, he might as well have just compared himself to Sir Alex.

 

[KekiZeki]

Ths problem with your argument is it lacks rational thesis, your assimilating that Klopp's ability to cultivate his team to win has nothing to do with his capabilities as a manager but instead all to do with the allocation time. It's as if there's a distinction between Klopp being the world's best manager and time. "Time" as a commodity doesn't guarantee success, a capable manager does.

If the time conundrum was a conduit to automatically become successful then Eddie Howe and Sean Dyche would be playing in the champions league this season and competing for league by this logic. To discredit Klopp's previous accomplishments with Dortmund is unwise, why would our very own Sir Alex make the statement that Liverpool would win the league before Jürgen even managed a game in England ? I didn't hear Sir Alex make such comments since Solskjaer's been appointed ...

Why add pressure at our own club? No one said Klopp is a bad manager, or that the time is all it takes, I believe Solskjaer can deliver. Sir Alex is not saying he can't either. So far his signings have been desent. If he starts signing deadwood to apease fans who say "get us this many players in this very window or you're terrible manager" I'll change my mind then. Immediate results can come and go, but what makes a manager is how he sets up his team. Well set up team will yield results.
People saying we should get this manager or that have their favorites, but equal number of fans will be at that manager's back if in 13 months we are not significantly better, which is unlikely given the squad now.

 

[b82REZ]

If I said give Solskjaer five years you'd call me an idiot. When Klopp took over in Liverpool he said in 4 years club will win something. Their success was quicker but he wasn't dumb enough to name what that title will be, he knew full well that he might need more time. I personally believe in 3 years we'd have titles under Solskjaer but that doens't mean it's a guarantee. It will depend on how quick we can get unwanted players out, wanted players in, who can we get, the status of our competition etc. but I firmly believe we now have a manager who'd get us back on our feet.

Sorry if I am not going to look at our results, compare them with the times we had winning teams and just say "not good enough" and yern about the time passed because you can do it in early stages of any new manager. New success is in the future, we'll get there, let's enjoy the ride and watch our youth improves every season. I believe Solskjaer has enough respect for the club to step down on his own if he sees he can't take the club further, he's not a career manager, he's here as he loves the club.

So how exactly are you evaluating Solksjaer's job if you don't look at results?

Tbh your posts reeks of a person unable to distinguish between Ole the player and Ole the manager. These silly romantic ideas that Solksjaer will just walk away and resign if he feels he's not up to it are getting tiring too. No self respecting manager would do that even if they genuinely believed it as it just highlights they are not cut out for a big job if they ever go to another club.

The reality is there is no concrete evidence that Solskjaer is bringing us back and is the man to take the club forward long term. If anything his results and general squad and game management suggest a man incredibly out of his depth.

Ole speaks passionately about the club and knows the structure from top to bottom. He clearly loves the club, but that does not qualify him for the job. Since he had had more influence over the team we have got worse, a couple of false dawns aside.

Expectations have been consistently lowered under his stewardship where we regularly see posters claim a top half finish is an achievement or the fact he's given some youth a chance as some sort of accolade.

 

[Member 113277]

Why does historical

Yeah because it’s worked out brilliant for Ole so far with the lack of midfield options.

As we're in 5th place, v 6th at the same time last year - one could argue 'improvement' (not that I would) - from a plc commercial perspective, the plc recouped money for Lukaku, reduced the wage bill by releasing Fellaini and Herrera and loaing Smalling out and performance improved. Don't confuse a plc with a supporter.

If Ole put pressure on the owners, what they going to do? Sack him and he gets a pay off or probably sign the players he needs. Where as now they most likely going to sack him unless we somehow get top four at the end of the season. Maybe signing a midfielder and not persisting with Lingard all season as number 10 then maybe results might have been different.

We do not know what goes on in the private discussions between the manager and those he reports to. There may be agreements about tenure because of the failure to sign targets - or not. If we'd signed a decent midfielder and a good 10, I've no doubt results would have been different, but hey ho, it is what it is. Going public didn't get Mourinho his players, did it?

JM moans everywhere he goes. Nobody would take notice of that. Ole is a club legend and his words would have meant something. Thanks for telling me where you work like that has anything to do with it.

Do you really think being a club legend gives any real influence with the executives of a plc? The reason I mentioned I worked in relatively senior management in a plc environment was that I've seen how plc businesses operate and it's a world away from a supporter's perspective - market capitalisation is a key indicator.

Have a look at the market cap trend for the last seven years https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/Man Utd/manchester-united/market-cap you can see the post Mourinho trends, a spike with JM's dismissal and Ole's appointment, thef asle dawn, a retreat afterwards, but now building again - Ole is well above where he started, in market cap terms and that is significant.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

There's nothing wrong with believing that Solskjaer should be given more leeway and time because he knows the club inside out and, after tossing about a billion Euros, we need to reevaluate our strategy and our priorities as a club.

There's nothing wrong with suggesting that a new ethos must be established and that the Solskjaer's sacking, midway through his first season, would mostly provide Woodward with yet another scapegoat while the main culprit for our current predicament will survive yet another debacle unscathed.

You can also point towards Greenwood, Williams, Tuanzebe and McTominay and say that Solskjaer's youth policy is already bearing fruit. Or that he found a tactical way not only to fit both Martial and Rashford in the starting lineup (something that wasn't a given under the previous regime who wanted to sell Martial) but helped them flourish too.

All of these are valid points.

There's no need to compare him with Ferguson, one of the greatest managers in the history of all sports. Not even Klopp and Guardiola would dare to accept this comparison. Ferguson possessed unparalleled managerial skills. Harvard has acquired his services for crying out loud, how many times have you seen this happening before? There's no point in saying that time was the only issue in his early years at United and use this as a stick to beat people with when the only thing that "time" proved was Ferguson's once in a lifetime brilliance. He succeeded because he was Ferguson, not because he was given time.

The comparisons with Klopp are also daft. Since he started managing, Klopp's faced a few bumps on the road but his career has mostly been on an upward spiral. He didn't spend a decade in the wilderness until he discovered an elusive winning formula. Neither did Pep or Zidane for that matter. All these managers are constantly evolving their tactics and their gameplan but they raised a lot of eyebrows very early in their careers. And whether you like or not, during the hard times, this counts and earns them credibility.

Solskjaer has done some good things and he's failed at others. People cry out about the state of the squad. It was a part of his plan to replace Lukaku with Martial in the starting lineup and promote Greenwood through the ranks as the back-up option. It was his decision not to sign a first choice right-winger because the "right candidate" wasn't available (Sancho). It was his decision to give McT the keys to the midfield (Herrera's place as a ball-winning midfielder) and please don't tell me that 50 odd million for Longstaff would have improved the quality of our football. And as Longstaff and Rice were the only targets he identified for the midfield, it was his choice to go into the season with only one creative midfielder in Pogba. Meanwhile, he got dicked by Woodward with Bruno but he also chose to indulge the latter's "protect the assets" policy by accepting new deals for Mata, Pereira, Jones, Young etc.

So, when Martial gets injured, he starts a positional merry-go-round in the attack which costs points and leads to dire performances. Without Pogba's contribution, we have the creativity of single cellular organisms more often than not. He constantly overloads the left side of the pitch and switch-ball to the right goes to players with pace and dynamism but very little creativity. But we're not allowed to point out these things because SAF needed time too and because it's a rebuilding process.

And herein lies the problem. Some people simply don't want Solskjaer to be held accountable for nothing that has to do with the actual job of a head coach. Last season was written off because it wasn't his team and his preseason. This season should also be written off because we're rebuilding. What about next season? Will it be alright to say something then? Or his young team will need at least 4-5 seasons before it matures? The problem with mentioning Klopp in these instances is that Solskjaer the head coach doesn't give you the impression of a manager who would lead this particular Liverpool side to back-to-back CL finals and 100 points consecutive seasons. Not in four but not even in eight seasons.

He cleared much of the deadwood, he bought well, he promotes youngsters and he still can't match the results of Mourinho's season when the latter had sabotaged his own team. Should we not be concerned about it or we should we just wait for it to magically get solved by the end of the rebuild? I believe that the rather fluid state of the PL below Liverpool and City makes our situation look much better than it is. This was the case under LvG too. We believed that we were a few good signings away from getting right but it all fell apart and we remained stagnant while all the others around us progressed one way or the other. I still remember that when we faced Liverpool for the EL, they already seemed to be ahead of us in their respective rebuild. They were already showing more impetus, more fluidity and better synergies on the pitch than we could have hoped for. And that was just a few months after Klopp had taken over.

In the end, the fear for both sides of the spectrum is the same: The Glazers and Woodward's incompetence in dealing with the post-Ferguson era. Some believe that by searching backwards, towards our great past, and by looking inwards in terms of tactics/formations we will find the correct answers. Some others believe that the outlines of Solskjaer's restructuring plan can be followed with or without him at the helm and that we should look for the best available choices while we still can.

 

[b82REZ]

There's nothing wrong with believing that Solskjaer should be given more leeway and time because he knows the club inside out and, after tossing about a billion Euros, we need to reevaluate our strategy and our priorities as a club.

There's nothing wrong with suggesting that a new ethos must be established and that the Solskjaer's sacking, midway through his first season, would mostly provide Woodward with yet another scapegoat while the main culprit for our current predicament will survive yet another debacle unscathed.

You can also point towards Greenwood, Williams, Tuanzebe and McTominay and say that Solskjaer's youth policy is already bearing fruit. Or that he found a tactical way not only to fit both Martial and Rashford in the starting lineup (something that wasn't a given under the previous regime who wanted to sell Martial) but helped them flourish too.

All of these are valid points.

There's no need to compare him with Ferguson, one of the greatest managers in the history of all sports. Not even Klopp and Guardiola would dare to accept this comparison. Ferguson possessed unparalleled managerial skills. Harvard has acquired his services for crying out loud, how many times have you seen this happening before? There's no point in saying that time was the only issue in his early years at United and use this as a stick to beat people with when the only thing that "time" proved was Ferguson's once in a lifetime brilliance. He succeeded because he was Ferguson, not because he was given time.

The comparisons with Klopp are also daft. Since he started managing, Klopp's faced a few bumps on the road but his career has mostly been on an upward spiral. He didn't spend a decade in the wilderness until he discovered an elusive winning formula. Neither did Pep or Zidane for that matter. All these managers are constantly evolving their tactics and their gameplan but they raised a lot of eyebrows very early in their careers. And whether you like or not, during the hard times, this counts and earns them credibility.

Solskjaer has done some good things and he's failed at others. People cry out about the state of the squad. It was a part of his plan to replace Lukaku with Martial in the starting lineup and promote Greenwood through the ranks as the back-up option. It was his decision not to sign a first choice right-winger because the "right candidate" wasn't available (Sancho). It was his decision to give McT the keys to the midfield (Herrera's place as a ball-winning midfielder) and please don't tell me that 50 odd million for Longstaff would have improved the quality of our football. And as Longstaff and Rice were the only targets he identified for the midfield, it was his choice to go into the season with only one creative midfielder in Pogba. Meanwhile, he got dicked by Woodward with Bruno but he also chose to indulge the latter's "protect the assets" policy by accepting new deals for Mata, Pereira, Jones, Young etc.

So, when Martial gets injured, he starts a positional merry-go-round in the attack which costs points and leads to dire performances. Without Pogba's contribution, we have the creativity of single cellular organisms more often than not. He constantly overloads the left side of the pitch and switch-ball to the right goes to players with pace and dynamism but very little creativity. But we're not allowed to point out these things because SAF needed time too and because it's a rebuilding process.

And herein lies the problem. Some people simply don't want Solskjaer to be held accountable for nothing that has to do with the actual job of a head coach. Last season was written off because it wasn't his team and his preseason. This season should also be written off because we're rebuilding. What about next season? Will it be alright to say something then? Or his young team will need at least 4-5 seasons before it matures? The problem with mentioning Klopp in these instances is that Solskjaer the head coach doesn't give you the impression of a manager who would lead this particular Liverpool side to back-to-back CL finals and 100 points consecutive seasons. Not in four but not even in eight seasons.

He cleared much of the deadwood, he bought well, he promotes youngsters and he still can't match the results of Mourinho's season when the latter had sabotaged his own team. Should we not be concerned about it or we should we just wait for it to magically get solved by the end of the rebuild? I believe that the rather fluid state of the PL below Liverpool and City makes our situation look much better than it is. This was the case under LvG too. We believed that we were a few good signings away from getting right but it all fell apart and we remained stagnant while all the others around us progressed one way or the other. I still remember that when we faced Liverpool for the EL, they already seemed to be ahead of us in their respective rebuild. They were already showing more impetus, more fluidity and better synergies on the pitch than we could have hoped for. And that was just a few months after Klopp had taken over.

In the end, the fear for both sides of the spectrum is the same: The Glazers and Woodward's incompetence in dealing with the post-Ferguson era. Some believe that by searching backwards, towards our great past, and by looking inwards in terms of tactics/formations we will find the correct answers. Some others believe that the outlines of Solskjaer's restructuring plan can be followed with or without him at the helm and that we should look for the best available choices while we still can.

Best post in this thread. Bravo sir

 

[Eriku]

Every team in the so called top six besides probably Liverpool had injuries. That’s no excuse. Who was all giddy before the start of the season and saying they happy with the squad. When it was clear after selling our £75m striker and letting Herrera go that we were players short in vital positions.

You take all manager’s statements at face value? Ole has also been clear about needing several windows to address the squad composition. And no other team has lost their only creative midfielder for more or less the whole season thus far. Pogba and Martial weren’t just any injuries, they impacted our offensive play a lot. Our best fecking midfielder has been McSauce ffs, and we lost him as well. If you really think our squad situation is on par with other teams then I’m not sure what to say.

 

[fallengt]

Depth down he definitely loves the club and isn't deluded (as much as I thought) but still I don't think he's good enough.
Willing the give him still the end of season to change mind my. Top 5 and cup finals are probably good enough for me since both LvG and Mourinho barely hit the spot in their first season.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

Depth down he definitely loves the club and isn't deluded (as much as I thought) but still I don't think he's good enough.
Willing the give him still the end of season to change mind my. Top 5 and cup finals are probably good enough for me since both LvG and Mourinho barely hit the spot in their first season.

If we sign 1-2 midfielders this window, play better attacking football, score more goals, reach a final or two (even if we fail) and finish 5th/6th - I would happily change my vote and give him one more shot at it next season.

If there's no improvement on the pitch and a 5th/6th finish (with or without new signings), I want him gone.

 

[Class of 63]

So you’re saying rival fans wouldn’t want us to keep Ole?

It's not as obvious as you'd think, If your stance is only idiotic/clueless United fans and rival fans/WUM's could possibly vote to keep Ole, then yes it is.

There's only one way to find out for sure, create a sub-thread and ask 'em, think you'll be surprised at some of the replies.

 

[Lentwood]

It's not as obvious as you'd think, If your stance is only idiotic/clueless United fans and rival fans/WUM's could possibly vote to keep Ole, then yes it is.

There's only one way to find out for sure, create a sub-thread and ask 'em, think you'll be surprised at some of the replies.

It's funny because I've been speaking to two non-United supporting mates today (Spurs and Derby) and both think that Ole is doing a great job, as do I.

Most of the serious criticism I see coming in for Ole is from our own fans and the fact his name is sung constantly on match days suggests it's not match-going fans criticising him either!

 

[90 + 5min]

Ths problem with your argument is it lacks rational thesis, your assimilating that Klopp's ability to cultivate his team to win has nothing to do with his capabilities as a manager but instead all to do with the allocation time. It's as if there's a distinction between Klopp being the world's best manager and time. "Time" as a commodity doesn't guarantee success, a capable manager does.

If the time conundrum was a conduit to automatically become successful then Eddie Howe and Sean Dyche would be playing in the champions league this season and competing for league by this logic. To discredit Klopp's previous accomplishments with Dortmund is unwise, why would our very own Sir Alex make the statement that Liverpool would win the league before Jürgen even managed a game in England ? I didn't hear Sir Alex make such comments since Solskjaer's been appointed ...

Nobody is discrediting Klopp. I said that time is important for managers to get things right. Like Klopp. Not saying Solskjaer will ever be better but time is important if you want to build something. Specially if something is really broken. If Solskjaer manages to put us back where we belong or not is written in the stars. But as long as there is progress I don’t see why we should change him. I don’t mind him getting sacked if we are going backwards. It has nothing to do with him being ex player.

Ofcourse you need a manager that knows what he is doing. That is capable to make a team stronger. At the same time the most important is to have right manager. Not always with best track records previous years. Klopp had done it great in Dortmund. And he kept on the same road at Liverpool but he got time. And in the end he is and was right for that club. They could have gone for ”better” managers but they took Klopp and it was right call looking at it now.

For me, Howe and Dyche are average managers. Time wouldn’t have helped them. And I already see Solskjaer as a better manager then those two. It shows in table and it shows the way teams play. And would I give them time? No. It was same with Moyes. Some managers just don’t look United. VanGaal on other hand would have been given more time if you ask me and Mourinho, as much as I like him, gave our club no option.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

My reasons for wanting Ole out is because he doesn't have the striking presence or charisma of a Manchester United coach. He doesn't strike me as someone who has his eyes set on being number one and dominant. There are also quite a number of coaches more tactically sound than he is.

That said he has definitely done some good things as manager and I'm not going to start repeating what has been said a thousand times. I just can't understand why some people will want him sacked now. It's not even like he has lost the dressing room. 5th in the league with lots of injuries and poor squad depth. I'd also say with the quality of our squad we're in our rightful position. Anyone asking for more should go look for Ferguson

I think Ole has been put on a very short leash by some fans because his track record has nothing to show that he's the right man for the job and I don't think he is. But deciding to sack now would not make any sense to me at all. By the end of the season it will be clear to everyone whether he is the one to take us forward or we would be better off with another coach.

 

[Member 113277]

Ole has been put on a very short leash by some fans

The fans don't hold Ole's leash.

 

[MackRobinson]

My reasons for wanting Ole out is because he doesn't have the striking presence or charisma of a Manchester United coach. He doesn't strike me as someone who has his eyes set on being number one and dominant. There are also quite a number of coaches more tactically sound than he is.

That said he has definitely done some good things as manager and I'm not going to start repeating what has been said a thousand times. I just can't understand why some people will want him sacked now. It's not even like he has lost the dressing room. 5th in the league with lots of injuries and poor squad depth. I'd also say with the quality of our squad we're in our rightful position. Anyone asking for more should go look for Ferguson

I think Ole has been put on a very short leash by some fans because his track record has nothing to show that he's the right man for the job and I don't think he is. But deciding to sack now would not make any sense to me at all. By the end of the season it will be clear to everyone whether he is the one to take us forward or we would be better off with another coach.

I feel this is one of the more honest posts about why the majority of fans don't want Ole, yet a good number of those fans defended Mourinho until the bitter end. Personally, I don't ascribe to this line of thinking, as I think a person's demeanor is a poor indicator of success. However, at least you are honest and don't hypocritically judge managers based on two different sets of standards.

 

[MonkeysMagic]

Its tiresome to repeatedly hear the 'I believe Ole will come good' argument when it's based on pure fantasy and no tangible evidence after a year in charge. The equally tiresome 'he has made good transfer deals' is ridiculous beyond belief. So he spent £150m to purchase 2 well known players in the PL and took a punt on a Championship player...I could do that, and can anyone truly make an argument that these players have pushed on from the skill set they arrived at? I think we can almost emphatically claim a NO!

Managers are not judged by the purchases they make, its ludicrous to even contemplate that, they are judged on how they elevate the players to the next level what achieving a cohesive style of play which is rewarded by success. Many a good managers implement the first two but fail on the third. Point here being that not many fans can see Ole achieving any of these objectives based on his first 12 months in charge and if we are simply saying that he needs 'better' players which bring these characteristics with them, what so special about him?

 

[Amarsdd]

I feel this is one of the more honest posts about why the majority of fans don't want Ole, yet a good number of those fans defended Mourinho until the bitter end. Personally, I don't ascribe to this line of thinking, as I think a person's demeanor is a poor indicator of success. However, at least you are honest and don't hypocritically judge managers based on two different sets of standards.

I believe this plays some part in how the fans perceive him and how the media portrays him either consciously or subconsciously. I've seen this happen in the professional environment too many times for my liking to not believe it doesn't happen in football media and reporting.

 

[Dve]

My reasons for wanting Ole out is because he doesn't have the striking presence or charisma of a Manchester United coach. He doesn't strike me as someone who has his eyes set on being number one and dominant. There are also quite a number of coaches more tactically sound than he is.

That said he has definitely done some good things as manager and I'm not going to start repeating what has been said a thousand times. I just can't understand why some people will want him sacked now. It's not even like he has lost the dressing room. 5th in the league with lots of injuries and poor squad depth. I'd also say with the quality of our squad we're in our rightful position. Anyone asking for more should go look for Ferguson

I think Ole has been put on a very short leash by some fans because his track record has nothing to show that he's the right man for the job and I don't think he is. But deciding to sack now would not make any sense to me at all. By the end of the season it will be clear to everyone whether he is the one to take us forward or we would be better off with another coach.

Charisma comes with success. It really doesn´t matter what managers say in press conferences. When you are winning, everything the manager says is hailed (remember Ole´s first 3 months?). When your team is struggling, everything you say will be twisted and spun. That´s just the way it is.

 

[Maluco]

I am still Ole out, because I don’t think is is a good enough coach. Simple as that, but I have to say, I am impressed with his cleaning out of the club.

Players are trying for him, atitudes seem to be better and everyone appears to be applying themselves. He has gotten rid of the players who were bringing a toxic atmosphere into the club and he has started to elevate some younger players into the first team.

If he moves on Pogba (attitude), Lingard and Jones (ability) by the summer and is able to add Fernandes, Maddison and an exciting attacker to the mix, I will applaud his interim period.

A new coach coming in would have a MUCH better platform to start things off with the clean out he is performing.

I am not happy with performances on the pitch and how the team plays, and crucially, I don’t think he has the nous to make them any better, but I am perfectly willing to sit through this if his final plan rids us of deadwood and bad examples and provides a nice clean slate for someone else going forward.

 

[John Blund]

Still Ole in. If we clear out Matic, Jones, Rojo, and Young while bringing in players who improve us, we'll be looking for a better season next year. As long as we're still in it for CL next season and the players haven't turned on him, I'll be standing behind my manager.

 

[Foxbatt]

Charisma comes with success. It really doesn´t matter what managers say in press conferences. When you are winning, everything the manager says is hailed (remember Ole´s first 3 months?). When your team is struggling, everything you say will be twisted and spun. That´s just the way it is.

Spot on. That I agree. You need success to get you credit. This is why he is facing all these issues. If he had won the CL or even got the final or the EL with Molde then no one will say much against him at least for now. The fact that he had not won anything of importance and his previous venture into the PL has ended in a huge disaster is why some of us have no faith in him. The same way we wanted Jose gone too when he threw his toys out.
Surely any true Manchester United fan would want the best manager available for United? The best players available for United? Or do you just accept anyone you fancy?

 

[sunama]

Depth down he definitely loves the club and isn't deluded (as much as I thought) but still I don't think he's good enough.
Willing the give him still the end of season to change mind my. Top 5 and cup finals are probably good enough for me since both LvG and Mourinho barely hit the spot in their first season.

LVG got top 4 in his first season.
Jose won 2 trophies in his first season.
Ole not winning anything and not making top 4 should be sackworthy.

 

[sunama]

He cleared much of the deadwood, he bought well, he promotes youngsters and he still can't match the results of Mourinho's season when the latter had sabotaged his own team.

You made many points and this point alone should tell us if Ole is good enough or not.
Jose wanted to get sacked and reached a point where he didn't care.
Ole, at his very best, is worse than Jose's car crash of a season.

 

[Bilbo]

I am still Ole out, because I don’t think is is a good enough coach. Simple as that, but I have to say, I am impressed with his cleaning out of the club.

Players are trying for him, atitudes seem to be better and everyone appears to be applying themselves. He has gotten rid of the players who were bringing a toxic atmosphere into the club and he has started to elevate some younger players into the first team.

If he moves on Pogba (attitude), Lingard and Jones (ability) by the summer and is able to add Fernandes, Maddison and an exciting attacker to the mix, I will applaud his interim period.

A new coach coming in would have a MUCH better platform to start things off with the clean out he is performing.

I am not happy with performances on the pitch and how the team plays, and crucially, I don’t think he has the nous to make them any better, but I am perfectly willing to sit through this if his final plan rids us of deadwood and bad examples and provides a nice clean slate for someone else going forward.

I like this post. Fair and balanced in both sides of the equation.

His longetivity in this job is going to be decided largely around how well the signings we make this year perform. I think he knows what the team is lacking, and he now has to find the right players to fill those gaps.

If he nails it, then the team will perform better and results will be better and talk about his ability on the coaching field will die away. We are never going to play like City, and I dont want us to, but if he can fulfil his vision of fast and direct attacking football we can become a powerful proposition.

 

[Bilbo]

You made many points and this point alone should tell us if Ole is good enough or not.
Jose wanted to get sacked and reached a point where he didn't care.
Ole, at his very best, is worse than Jose's car crash of a season.

Complete hogwash. Jose was flying this team into a mountain. A very steep downward curve that could have taken us back even further if wed let him completely loose with the chequebook. We haven't yet seen the full potential of what this team could be once Ole has his players, but we've seen enough to give him the opportunity

 

[Member 113277]

Complete hogwash. Jose was flying this team into a mountain. A very steep downward curve that could have taken us back even further if wed let him completely loose with the chequebook. We haven't yet seen the full potential of what this team could be once Ole has his players, but we've seen enough to give him the opportunity

Well said.I don't know if Ole will work out, but I do know that we have a more committed team, his summer signings have worked out much better than some of his predecessors' did, the team is playing with more resilience and some good youngsters are coming through.

That will do for me, at the moment. Then I want to see a good summer window with decent signings, more dead wood gone and a positive start to 2020-2021.

You don't build for the future by continuously sacking managers.

 

[fallengt]

LVG got top 4 in his first season.
Jose won 2 trophies in his first season.
Ole not winning anything and not making top 4 should be sackworthy.

They are experienced managers. I don't think Ole is good enough either.. but im giving him benefit of the doubt.
Top 5 and cup finals would be an okay achievement in his first full season. His achievements not United's, mind.

Such a shame though, everyone is so inconsistent this season and we should be comfortably shitting on that 4th place right now.

 

[Dve]

Spot on. That I agree. You need success to get you credit. This is why he is facing all these issues. If he had won the CL or even got the final or the EL with Molde then no one will say much against him at least for now. The fact that he had not won anything of importance and his previous venture into the PL has ended in a huge disaster is why some of us have no faith in him. The same way we wanted Jose gone too when he threw his toys out.
Surely any true Manchester United fan would want the best manager available for United? The best players available for United? Or do you just accept anyone you fancy?

Well, personally I would like to see what he can do after making 2-3 new signing, as the current squad is not good enough for competing with the likes of Liverpool and City. Next season, all the youngster will be one year older and he will by then, also had more time to work with the group.

You could argue that United this season have been bad at breaking down teams that are sitting deep, and I support that view. In contrast, what has been a trademark of Guiardola´s teams (all of them, Barcelona, Bayern M and City), is now the offensive players are set up to make perfectly timed runs into the box, which is almost impossible to defend against. So why is not Ole able to do the same?

I think it´s a bit stupid to suggest that Ole does not understand the principles of Pep´s tactics - the manager he has studied more than anyone (bare Fergie, of course). Ole has spend his whole life studying tactics - taking notes as a players, studying other managers (Guardiola, especially), reading up on all the theory. When people suggest he´s tactically inept, I believe that´s just simply wrong. Probably, he´s one the most knowledgeable managers there is. But remember what Ole said was his biggest mistake at Cardiff: He tried to implement too much at the same time, and the players where not able to coop with all the changes. So, instead Ole has a different approach this time - he´s trying to perfecting one thing at the time.

What we know about Guardiola, is that he´s spending hour after hours after hours on the training ground, working on offensive patterns: when to start the run, where to run, simultaneous movements etc. It´s not something you´ll be able to implement into your time during a weekend.

So were is the progress then? What the hell has he been working on when United still are miles away from City when it comes to breaking down teams (although, we may have gotten a bit better lately)?

1. The counter attack. Yeah, some would say, park the bus and hit teams on the break, that all he can do. But playing on the break does not mean parking the bus. After the City game Rashford was criticised for not helping out in the defence. Well, he´s not supposed to. United´s offensive players are set up to be ready for the break - they are not suppose to help out in defence. The problem earlier this season, however, was to finding the balance between countering and keeping the ball when there were less chances to succeed with passes up the field. In some games, it just looked like aimless long balls up field which only resulted in United losing the ball. We´ve have become better at finding the balance, which has contributed to United having more possession against weaker teams.

2. Playing out from the back. We have become better at this as well. Instead of seeing the ball being played back and forth between the central defenders and the side backs (especially with Shaw in the team...), we have become braver on the ball and better abled to use it more central in the field (also thanks to Fred having stepped up his game). This has also contributed to us having more possession.

So what´s next then?

3. Breaking down teams that are sitting deep. That´s obviously work in progress, but should we not wait and see what can be done?

So, for me, it´s step by step. And when the players are so vocal in their support of the manager, is it not worth the risk of letting Ole having a full season and perhaps getting a few signings that will make his work easier?

(and please forgive this long answer, I really do hate long post myself).