Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

You made many points and this point alone should tell us if Ole is good enough or not.
Jose wanted to get sacked and reached a point where he didn't care.
Ole, at his very best, is worse than Jose's car crash of a season.

My post was a summarization of points made by both sides of the argument more than anything else because i felt that in the last few pages we had fallen back to recycling the same old silliness: Things like "If he gets time and time only he'll become as good as Klopp" when Klopp probably the best manager of his generation or that "it's pure nepotism that he's still in the job or that he got it in the first place" when retired players make the 99% of all new managers.

I've posted sever times on the subject and i've never hidden where i stand: I don't think he's good enough on the tactical field. I also believe that he's very idealistic for his own good. This creates problems for him and the side. For example, i believe his decision to marginalize Lukaku (because he did that) was correct. Lukaku (nothing personal against the lad) was a signing made with great money that served Mourinho's immediate need for a goal-scorer and a presence in the box but it was not in the team's best interests. It pushed one of United's greatest assets, Rashford, into a supportive role out-wide and another, Martial, towards the exit. Solskjaer thought what was best for the club. But, as we all know, Martial has weaknesses as well as strengths in his game. He doesn't have the intensity to constantly harass the opposition centre-halves and he often has periods, even within a game, when he goes missing. Solskjaer and his staff had to be somewhat ready for this. Instead, when Martial is not at his best, we look more static than statues. And when he got injured, the initial reaction with Rashford up-front, James on the left and Pereira as a right-winger offered us absolutely nothing. James lost any kind of form he had, Pereira was hopeless and Rashford looked like a fish out of the water. Now, whether some want to admit it or not, these things are what managers are being paid millions to solve. So, there's that.

It creates a paradox in which you can argue he's getting the big picture right but he's failing in many (not all) of the nuances and the particularities that will help his vision materialize. The results are no better than Mourinho's last season, that's true. But he also brought hope and he refreshed the mood of the fanbase. He promised a fresh start. The objection i stated in my previous post is that for a club of United's stature, promise alone isn't enough. The promise must be fulfilled. Whether he will achieve this or not, it remains to be seen. I don't think he will but it's not a crime to think that he may as well pull this off in the end.

 

[Foxbatt]

Well, personally I would like to see what he can do after making 2-3 new signing, as the current squad is not good enough for competing with the likes of Liverpool and City. Next season, all the youngster will be one year older and he will by then, also had more time to work with the group.

You could argue that United this season have been bad at breaking down teams that are sitting deep, and I support that view. In contrast, what has been a trademark of Guiardola´s teams (all of them, Barcelona, Bayern M and City), is now the offensive players are set up to make perfectly timed runs into the box, which is almost impossible to defend against. So why is not Ole able to do the same?

I think it´s a bit stupid to suggest that Ole does not understand the principles of Pep´s tactics - the manager he has studied more than anyone (bare Fergie, of course). Ole has spend his whole life studying tactics - taking notes as a players, studying other managers (Guardiola, especially), reading up on all the theory. When people suggest he´s tactically inept, I believe that´s just simply wrong. Probably, he´s one the most knowledgeable managers there is. But remember what Ole said was his biggest mistake at Cardiff: He tried to implement too much at the same time, and the players where not able to coop with all the changes. So, instead Ole has a different approach this time - he´s trying to perfecting one thing at the time.

What we know about Guardiola, is that he´s spending hour after hours after hours on the training ground, working on offensive patterns: when to start the run, where to run, simultaneous movements etc. It´s not something you´ll be able to implement into your time during a weekend.

So were is the progress then? What the hell has he been working on when United still are miles away from City when it comes to breaking down teams (although, we may have gotten a bit better lately)?

1. The counter attack. Yeah, some would say, park the bus and hit teams on the break, that all he can do. But playing on the break does not mean parking the bus. After the City game Rashford was criticised for not helping out in the defence. Well, he´s not supposed to. United´s offensive players are set up to be ready for the break - they are not suppose to help out in defence. The problem earlier this season, however, was to finding the balance between countering and keeping the ball when there were less chances to succeed with passes up the field. In some games, it just looked like aimless long balls up field which only resulted in United losing the ball. We´ve have become better at finding the balance, which has contributed to United having more possession against weaker teams.

2. Playing out from the back. We have become better at this as well. Instead of seeing the ball being played back and forth between the central defenders and the side backs (especially with Shaw in the team...), we have become braver on the ball and better abled to use it more central in the field (also thanks to Fred having stepped up his game). This has also contributed to us having more possession.

So what´s next then?

3. Breaking down teams that are sitting deep. That´s obviously work in progress, but should we not wait and see what can be done?

So, for me, it´s step by step. And when the players are so vocal in their support of the manager, is it not worth the risk of letting Ole having a full season and perhaps getting a few signings that will make his work easier?

(and please forgive this long answer, I really do hate long post myself).

Why do you keep saying Ole studied Pep? What Pep teaches is what Cruijff taught him. It is fairly basic too. Right space right time. But from all what I have seen of Ole he does not even think like that or any of his teams play like that. He is completely different from what Pep coaches. He is more Jose without the nastiness of Jose. His teams play only counter attacking football and the same with Molde too.

 

[MackRobinson]

I believe this plays some part in how the fans perceive him and how the media portrays him either consciously or subconsciously. I've seen this happen in the professional environment too many times for my liking to not believe it doesn't happen in football media and reporting.

Agreed. That a lot of people have an arbitrary, often media-driven, image of what a "leader" is supposed to look like and when someone does fit this picture they use confirmation bias to discredit them. A while ago I used to have an old co-worker, who I hated, who intense dislike for our manager who was a VP. I'm convinced it was b/c it was a nerdy, frail-looking woman and he had issues with a woman as his boss. What's worse is she was probably the best VP in company performance-wise and credential wise (Ivy league MBA). He couldn't fathom that the next manager we had would likely be far worse.

 

[MackRobinson]

Wait so a managers previous record has nothing to do with how much leway they should be given?

Terrible post.

No, it shouldn't. You are essentially saying United's expectations should rise and fall with the manager rather than circumstance. That's silly.

 

[Random Task]

Complete hogwash. Jose was flying this team into a mountain. A very steep downward curve that could have taken us back even further if wed let him completely loose with the chequebook. We haven't yet seen the full potential of what this team could be once Ole has his players, but we've seen enough to give him the opportunity

See, I do agree with you, but the same logic could be applied to any manager in his position.

If Ole is competent enough to achieve something with a fully functioning squad of players, then it stands to reason that a significantly more qualified coach will achieve even more.

 

[Pantscat]

I voted 'keep' originally as I thought he might come good.

I'm less confident than I was then, but I still think there is a chance this could come good, with a few better players in midfield, an extra quality attacker (particularly a wide attacker) and maybe a left-back. It will take time, no matter who the manager is, and getting rid of managers is no guarantee of success (look at Arsenal and Spurs).

 

[mancan92]

Nobody is discrediting Klopp. I said that time is important for managers to get things right. Like Klopp. Not saying Solskjaer will ever be better but time is important if you want to build something. Specially if something is really broken. If Solskjaer manages to put us back where we belong or not is written in the stars. But as long as there is progress I don’t see why we should change him. I don’t mind him getting sacked if we are going backwards. It has nothing to do with him being ex player.

Ofcourse you need a manager that knows what he is doing. That is capable to make a team stronger. At the same time the most important is to have right manager. Not always with best track records previous years. Klopp had done it great in Dortmund. And he kept on the same road at Liverpool but he got time. And in the end he is and was right for that club. They could have gone for ”better” managers but they took Klopp and it was right call looking at it now.

For me, Howe and Dyche are average managers. Time wouldn’t have helped them. And I already see Solskjaer as a better manager then those two. It shows in table and it shows the way teams play. And would I give them time? No. It was same with Moyes. Some managers just don’t look United. VanGaal on other hand would have been given more time if you ask me and Mourinho, as much as I like him, gave our club no option.

Wait what has ole shown in the past to be better than those managers? We have a clear example of ole at Cardiff where he wasn't able to do what those two managers have done.

 

[mancan92]

No, it shouldn't. You are essentially saying United's expectations should rise and fall with the manager rather than circumstance. That's silly.

No I'm saying that a manager who has shown to do great things will always be given more leway than a manager who hasn't. Simple logic.

 

[MackRobinson]

No I'm saying that a manager who has shown to do great things will always be given more leway than a manager who hasn't. Simple logic.

And I'm saying they shouldn't. It's actually faulty logic given the wildly different circumstances managers find themselves in from team to team.

 

[Popcorn]

I am starting to be more convinced by the give Ole more time argument. However, it still feels like giving someone the job of headteacher of a school because they were a good student.

Mostly seems to be “let him buy some new players and then see how he does”, so we better get on and do that then.

 

[Aresma7]

You made many points and this point alone should tell us if Ole is good enough or not.
Jose wanted to get sacked and reached a point where he didn't care.
Ole, at his very best, is worse than Jose's car crash of a season.

Yeah, look what happened when he does care. The winning streak Spurs has been on lately just proves we were stupid to sack one of the most finished managers in the game today.

 

[mancan92]

And I'm saying they shouldn't. It's actually faulty logic given the wildly different circumstances managers find themselves in from team to team.

How is it faulty logic? If pep comes in and gets 4th in the first year. Should city sack him? The same way the do for other managers?

 

[RUCK4444]

And I'm saying they shouldn't. It's actually faulty logic given the wildly different circumstances managers find themselves in from team to team.

This. People treat managers like their situation is identical.
Taking over City’s squad for example is a far better starting point than taking over United’s last season.

There are a huge amount of variables; current squad quality, how much backing the owners provide (££££),
do they have the players to implement the managers philosophy quickly, do they need to sell before being able to buy. Etc etc

Every manager has the same set of issues to deal with but importantly it’s a lot harder at some clubs than others.

Therefore they all have wildly varying starting points in their job, this is something that is often overlooked when people start labelling ‘this manager shite’ because he needs more than 1 transfer window and ‘that manager is great’ because he’s implemented his style so quickly.

 

[jem]

It's funny because I've been speaking to two non-United supporting mates today (Spurs and Derby) and both think that Ole is doing a great job, as do I.

Most of the serious criticism I see coming in for Ole is from our own fans and the fact his name is sung constantly on match days suggests it's not match-going fans criticising him either!

I appreciate your positive outlook (I'm not being sarcastic,) but I have to ask how you determine that Ole is doing a great job. I can somewhat understand the argument for giving him more time, but I really can't see how he is doing a great job.

 

[Rolaholic]

Is this a real quote??

 

[MackRobinson]

How is it faulty logic? If pep comes in and gets 4th in the first year. Should city sack him? The same way the do for other managers?

Like I said, each manager comes into a new job with a widely different set of circumstances that his previous jobs, whether they be successes of failures. By giving leeway to a manager with a better CV, you are essentially facilitating confirmation bias and not judging the manager by his performance in his current job, which is a recipe for disaster.

Usually, inexperience is given more leeway as the individual needs time to grow and develop, but for some reason, those who are Ole out seem to think the opposite. Given his experience, I'm more bullish on Ole adapting/improving than a manager like Mourinho. Old dog, same tricks.

For Pep, if he failed expectations given the same set of circumstances of other managers then, of course, he should be fired. But like I the set of circumstances cannot be ignored. What was the previous finish? What players were lost/gained? I think fans tend to think about football management in very simplistic, binary terms because it's easier to digest, but nothing I've seen suggested managers are good and bad in a vacuum. Circumstance matters since squads gel, young players progress, injuries happen, transfers happen, etc.

I think Ole is doing an alright job and he could be better, but this hyperbole of calling him the worst manager in the league and tactically naive is a bit over the top. It completely ignores circumstances and judges him by a hypocritical standard.

 

[MackRobinson]

Therefore they all have wildly varying starting points in their job, this is something that is often overlooked when people start labelling ‘this manager shite’ because he needs more than 1 transfer window and ‘that manager is great’ because he’s implemented his style so quickly.

The bolded is key. It's often overlooked that nobody thought when he took over the squad could get 4th. The season was essentially a write-off, but once he exceeded expectations, and then narrowly missed out on top 4 the narrative changed. I get it: Sports fans aren't reasonable. However, one would think given a positive atmosphere, the praise of the players, the progression of players (Rashford, Fred, Greenwood, Williams, etc), and the fact the team is 5 points off top 4 you would think fans would have a more nuanced view of his tenure. I guess that's too much to ask.

Here is a thought experiment: If Mourinho were in the exact same situation as Ole (from interim to now), would fans be calling for his sacking? Unfortunately, we both know the answer.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Everytime I see this thread im shocked this is even a debate. This bloke should've been gone a long time ago. He will not under any conditions build us a side that competes for the title. He's simply not a coach of that level.

 

[Class of 63]

It's funny because I've been speaking to two non-United supporting mates today (Spurs and Derby) and both think that Ole is doing a great job, as do I.

Most of the serious criticism I see coming in for Ole is from our own fans and the fact his name is sung constantly on match days suggests it's not match-going fans criticising him either!

In the 'real' world, and let's be honest, if we didn't have the Weather and Manchester United in England we'd have nothing to talk about/have an opinion on, I'd say it's as high as 80/20 in favour of giving Ole more time, and that's across all age groups which surprised me.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

He will not under any conditions build us a side that competes for the title. He's simply not a coach of that level.

This. People have good reasons and excuses to keep him and they are right but in the end, he's just not good enough. I like to compare Ole to Andreas Pereira. They show the occasional flashes of brilliance, the determination and their love for the club but it's simply not enough to get us to the level we should be at.

Wanting to keep Ole is like wanting Pereira as your AM. He is not shit, he has some good moments, but when you compare him to other AMs like Maddison, De Bruyne, Coutinho, Isco, etc the difference is obvious. In the same vein when you compare Ole who isn't shit, who has had some good moments to other coaches like Nagelsmann, Bielsa, Klopp, Guardiola, Tuchel etc the difference is clear.

If you want to have a world class team you need players like Maddison or De Bruyne or Coutinho not Pereira. A coach like Klopp, Guardiola, Nagelsmann not Ole. People say we've tried this with Mourinho and LVG but that is just like signing a player well past his peak or on the decline like a Sanchez.

I'm aware this analogy does not address some issues that Ole has been dealing with as a coach and has been doing quite well. But this is just how I see Ole's coaching ability and I think it's comparable to Pereira's ability as a player.

Now we can choose to keep playing Pereira and see if he becomes a world class AM like De Bruyne or Coutinho and similarly, we can let Ole keep coaching us for the long term and see if he becomes a world class tactician like Guardiola or Klopp

 

[hobbers]

"That is the aim, of course," Solskjaer responded when asked if United could fight for the title next term. "I’m not saying it is a realistic one. We are behind and a fair rate behind the top one [Liverpool] now, who we play on Sunday and we’ll see where we are against them. But with a few signings, with the improvement these are making, in the next couple of years we want to do that. Supporters and the club alike are not happy with not challenging for the top position in the league."


His vacuous Moyesey-clone answers to these sorts of questions really are starting to grate. He wasn't asked if we could outright win the title, only if we could fight for it.

Woodward really has struck gold with this guy. Can basically say and do everything Moyes did but this time enough fans will just shrug and nod.

 

[lysglimt]

This. People have good reasons and excuses to keep him and they are right but in the end, he's just not good enough. I like to compare Ole to Andreas Pereira. They show the occasional flashes of brilliance, the determination and their love for the club but it's simply not enough to get us to the level we should be at.

Wanting to keep Ole is like wanting Pereira as your AM. He is not shit, he has some good moments, but when you compare him to other AMs like Maddison, De Bruyne, Coutinho, Isco, etc the difference is obvious. In the same vein when you compare Ole who isn't shit, who has had some good moments to other coaches like Nagelsmann, Bielsa, Klopp, Guardiola, Tuchel etc the difference is clear.

If you want to have a world class team you need players like Maddison or De Bruyne or Coutinho not Pereira. A coach like Bielsa, Klopp, Guardiola not Ole. People say we've tried this with Mourinho and LVG but that is just like signing a player well past his peak or on the decline like a Sanchez.

I'm aware this analogy does not address some issues that Ole has been dealing with as a coach and has been doing quite well. But this is just how I see Ole's coaching ability and I think it's comparable to Pereira's ability as a player.

Now we can choose to keep playing Pereira and see if he becomes a world class AM like De Bruyne or Coutinho and similarly, we can let Ole keep coaching us for the long term and see if he becomes a world class tactician like Guardiola or Klopp or Bielsa.

Klopp, Guardiola and Bielsa ? Marcelo Bielsa is your definition of a World-class tactician ? A manager whose only telling contribution to top-flight club football was one good season with Velez Sarsfield in the 90s and one decent season with Marseille in 14/15.

 

[lysglimt]

His vacuous Moyesey-clone answers to these sorts of questions really are starting to grate. He wasn't asked if we could outright win the title, only if we could fight for it.

So you are saying it's realistic for any team apart from Man City to realistically battle Liverpool for the title next year ? In my opinion it's not unless Liverpool have a big dip.

 

[Kush]

Is this a real quote??

Yes. But, he has always maintained it was a 3 year project and he expects us to challenge for PL in 2021/22 season. Obviously I expect his tone to change if he longs that last.

Klopp, Guardiola and Bielsa ? Marcelo Bielsa is your definition of a World-class tactician ? A manager whose only telling contribution to top-flight club football was one good season with Velez Sarsfield in the 90s and one decent season with Marseille in 14/15.

Biesla may not be one but Ole sure as hell isn't one either. At least you could say Biesla' telling contribution to top-flight club has been 'one good season'. What has been Ole's as a manager? Relegation with Cardiff.

 

[tenpoless]

I didn't take the photo bro
go back to knitting son

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Klopp, Guardiola and Bielsa ? Marcelo Bielsa is your definition of a World-class tactician ? A manager whose only telling contribution to top-flight club football was one good season with Velez Sarsfield in the 90s and one decent season with Marseille in 14/15.

Didn't realize I said world class but even though, he's highly respected in the coaching world by the some of the best coaches. Hence seen as a very good tactician by people in his field. I edited the post if seeing Bielsa and world class in a sentence is a problem for you and others

 

[90 + 5min]

Wait what has ole shown in the past to be better than those managers? We have a clear example of ole at Cardiff where he wasn't able to do what those two managers have done.

It is not about past. It is about now and about future.

To talk about Solskjaer and his Cardiff spell isn’t a messaure of quality. Some managers are perfect for small club and some are perfect for big clubs.

 

[KekiZeki]

I voted 'keep' originally as I thought he might come good.

I'm less confident than I was then, but I still think there is a chance this could come good, with a few better players in midfield, an extra quality attacker (particularly a wide attacker) and maybe a left-back. It will take time, no matter who the manager is, and getting rid of managers is no guarantee of success (look at Arsenal and Spurs).

He didn't really added players you'd say would change the way we play. I don't know why, but I suspect it's because we've fallen down significantly, and players we badly need are those that are harder to come by. His additions were good, but you won't have a full back change the way you play as a team or a CB to solve all your defensive problems that stem from midfield mostly I think.

Why do you keep saying Ole studied Pep? What Pep teaches is what Cruijff taught him. It is fairly basic too. Right space right time. But from all what I have seen of Ole he does not even think like that or any of his teams play like that. He is completely different from what Pep coaches. He is more Jose without the nastiness of Jose. His teams play only counter attacking football and the same with Molde too.

I am not sure that we play the way we play out of Ole's desire to play like that, I think it's the lack of proper players for the prefered way of play.
Not "copying" Pep is not a bad thing. If you look at Bayern team before Pep they actually looked better, and against Barcelona they were "the counter attacking team" but they beat them badly. This style is a lot more to what we at United are use to and if he wants to mimic that, I'll support it wholehartedly!
It's early to judge yet, that's the whole risk of getting the manager you don't know how it will pan out, but if you keep changing them before they get to do what they set out to do then you'll never develop the style of play.

 

[Lentwood]

I appreciate your positive outlook (I'm not being sarcastic,) but I have to ask how you determine that Ole is doing a great job. I can somewhat understand the argument for giving him more time, but I really can't see how he is doing a great job.

I think we all acknowledged that whoever took over from Jose had a huge job on their hands. The squad was short on quality and depth. Players were on crazy contracts which seems to have caused divisions in the dressing room. It looked like the club were chasing the wrong type of players. I really did struggle to see any positives! For what it’s worth, I gave up my ST after Jose’s 2nd season in charge because I despaired at the direction the club was going in, even though we had just finished 2nd. The whole club felt toxic.

Now I see a bunch of young, hungry footballers wearing the Utd shirt. I like all three of the players we signed in the Summer. I like the kind of players we are linked with in the markets (no more constant Ramos, Bale, Ronaldo nonsense).

If someone had asked me what I felt a realistic target for Utd was this season I would have said anything from 6th-3rd was likely and acceptable. So for us to be in 5th, still in the Europa League, still in the FA Cup and (just about) the Carabao Cup and with so many good young players in the squad I feel we’ve plenty to look forward to and are finally heading in the right direction

 

[mancan92]

It is not about past. It is about now and about future.

To talk about Solskjaer and his Cardiff spell isn’t a messaure of quality. Some managers are perfect for small club and some are perfect for big clubs.

Yes but ole only got the job because of his legend status not for his actual cv. Those managers haven't had the luck ole got to get the job but they have both shown more in their careers than ole. Alot more.

 

[Jinn]

Yes but ole only got the job because of his legend status not for his actual cv. Those managers haven't had the luck ole got to get the job but they have both shown more in their careers than ole. Alot more.

Ole is only 2 years younger than Guardiola. Considering Guardiola was lucky to get the job at Barcelona considering his relative inexperience at the time and also lucky to inherit a squad filled with brilliant players, not to mention one of the best footballers to grace a football pitch. I think your "Luck" point is a bit BS.
BTW, Klopp is 52 and Bielsa is 64.

 

[mancan92]

Ole is only 2 years younger than Guardiola. Considering Guardiola was lucky to get the job at Barcelona considering his relative inexperience at the time and also lucky to inherit a squad filled with brilliant players, not to mention one of the best footballers to grace a football pitch. I think your "Luck" point is a bit BS.
BTW, Klopp is 52 and Bielsa is 64.

Barcelona also has a completely different culture than we do in terms of coaches. They very rarely go for big name coaches and often promote from within.

Ole has been a manager for 10 years he has a body of work already its not like we took him as his first gig. Guardiola literally came in a got rid of their best players at the and won a champions league and league double in his first season. He is a maverick genius and that was clear from the start to compare him and ole is a joke. Ole isn't some new buck coming to manage and take the game by storm.

 

[Tony247]

It is not about past. It is about now and about future.

To talk about Solskjaer and his Cardiff spell isn’t a messaure of quality. Some managers are perfect for small club and some are perfect for big clubs.

Ole is yet to prove he is good, leave aside perfect, for a big club. We are still experimenting with him...and vice versa.

 

[Jinn]

Barcelona also has a completely different culture than we do in terms of coaches. They very rarely go for big name coaches and often promote from within.

Ole has been a manager for 10 years he has a body of work already its not like we took him as his first gig. Guardiola literally came in a got rid of their best players at the and won a champions league and league double in his first season. He is a maverick genius and that was clear from the start to compare him and ole is a joke. Ole isn't some new buck coming to manage and take the game by storm.

Did he get rid of Messi? Does Ole have a Messi type player? You may agree or not, but the fact that you have a genius like that in your squad goes a long way in winning a match. I'm not saying he did it all by himself(Messi), but that team would have been nothing special without him.
BTW, i'm not comparing Ole to Guardiola, i'm comparing the circumstances.

Hypothetically, if Ole took over the squad SAF left behind, do you believe he would have let us drop to the position we are in right now? I don't think so, i think he would have done pretty well with a team full of experienced internationals and added some decent players to compliment the older ones and definitely introduced the younger ones to the first team. He wouldn't have to go through all this BS of creating a culture again. The job is far greater than some simpletons make it out to be.
He would not have ripped that squad up and we would have had a natural progression into building a new team.

 

[Andersonson]

There's nothing wrong with believing that Solskjaer should be given more leeway and time because he knows the club inside out and, after tossing about a billion Euros, we need to reevaluate our strategy and our priorities as a club.

There's nothing wrong with suggesting that a new ethos must be established and that the Solskjaer's sacking, midway through his first season, would mostly provide Woodward with yet another scapegoat while the main culprit for our current predicament will survive yet another debacle unscathed.

You can also point towards Greenwood, Williams, Tuanzebe and McTominay and say that Solskjaer's youth policy is already bearing fruit. Or that he found a tactical way not only to fit both Martial and Rashford in the starting lineup (something that wasn't a given under the previous regime who wanted to sell Martial) but helped them flourish too.

All of these are valid points.

There's no need to compare him with Ferguson, one of the greatest managers in the history of all sports. Not even Klopp and Guardiola would dare to accept this comparison. Ferguson possessed unparalleled managerial skills. Harvard has acquired his services for crying out loud, how many times have you seen this happening before? There's no point in saying that time was the only issue in his early years at United and use this as a stick to beat people with when the only thing that "time" proved was Ferguson's once in a lifetime brilliance. He succeeded because he was Ferguson, not because he was given time.

The comparisons with Klopp are also daft. Since he started managing, Klopp's faced a few bumps on the road but his career has mostly been on an upward spiral. He didn't spend a decade in the wilderness until he discovered an elusive winning formula. Neither did Pep or Zidane for that matter. All these managers are constantly evolving their tactics and their gameplan but they raised a lot of eyebrows very early in their careers. And whether you like or not, during the hard times, this counts and earns them credibility.

Solskjaer has done some good things and he's failed at others. People cry out about the state of the squad. It was a part of his plan to replace Lukaku with Martial in the starting lineup and promote Greenwood through the ranks as the back-up option. It was his decision not to sign a first choice right-winger because the "right candidate" wasn't available (Sancho). It was his decision to give McT the keys to the midfield (Herrera's place as a ball-winning midfielder) and please don't tell me that 50 odd million for Longstaff would have improved the quality of our football. And as Longstaff and Rice were the only targets he identified for the midfield, it was his choice to go into the season with only one creative midfielder in Pogba. Meanwhile, he got dicked by Woodward with Bruno but he also chose to indulge the latter's "protect the assets" policy by accepting new deals for Mata, Pereira, Jones, Young etc.

So, when Martial gets injured, he starts a positional merry-go-round in the attack which costs points and leads to dire performances. Without Pogba's contribution, we have the creativity of single cellular organisms more often than not. He constantly overloads the left side of the pitch and switch-ball to the right goes to players with pace and dynamism but very little creativity. But we're not allowed to point out these things because SAF needed time too and because it's a rebuilding process.

And herein lies the problem. Some people simply don't want Solskjaer to be held accountable for nothing that has to do with the actual job of a head coach. Last season was written off because it wasn't his team and his preseason. This season should also be written off because we're rebuilding. What about next season? Will it be alright to say something then? Or his young team will need at least 4-5 seasons before it matures? The problem with mentioning Klopp in these instances is that Solskjaer the head coach doesn't give you the impression of a manager who would lead this particular Liverpool side to back-to-back CL finals and 100 points consecutive seasons. Not in four but not even in eight seasons.

He cleared much of the deadwood, he bought well, he promotes youngsters and he still can't match the results of Mourinho's season when the latter had sabotaged his own team. Should we not be concerned about it or we should we just wait for it to magically get solved by the end of the rebuild? I believe that the rather fluid state of the PL below Liverpool and City makes our situation look much better than it is. This was the case under LvG too. We believed that we were a few good signings away from getting right but it all fell apart and we remained stagnant while all the others around us progressed one way or the other. I still remember that when we faced Liverpool for the EL, they already seemed to be ahead of us in their respective rebuild. They were already showing more impetus, more fluidity and better synergies on the pitch than we could have hoped for. And that was just a few months after Klopp had taken over.

In the end, the fear for both sides of the spectrum is the same: The Glazers and Woodward's incompetence in dealing with the post-Ferguson era. Some believe that by searching backwards, towards our great past, and by looking inwards in terms of tactics/formations we will find the correct answers. Some others believe that the outlines of Solskjaer's restructuring plan can be followed with or without him at the helm and that we should look for the best available choices while we still can.

Some factual errors here though, which comprimises some of your points.

Jones was signed when we had an interim manager. His influences on that deal is vague. Not sure he had anything to do with it at all to be fair.

When it comes to Mata, he aint taking anyones places in the first team. A very intelligent player who is happy being a backup option. One of the few creative sparks aswell. Why get rid of him? He hasnt stolen any game time for anyone who didnt deserve it.

Andreas is young, given him away for free, would be nothing but stupid. We also have little options in midfield, and he has proven that sometimes he can be a option. The manager, newly recruited at the time, cant be blamed for Woodwards failure to re-inforce.
This has also been happening during other managers regime

When it comes to Young, people are now complaining about him maybe leaving, so that extension was maybe a smart move?

Ole has said it many times, he's building a core or players. Scott, Maguire, Rashford and Martial. Then we have youngsters very much improving aswell. With that group and a few inforcements we could see a whole new United.

I for one, see an actual plan behind this rebuild, and when you look at the progression being made by the players he wants to be a core, its actual progression.

 

[mancan92]

Did he get rid of Messi? Does Ole have a Messi type player? You may agree or not, but the fact that you have a genius like that in your squad goes a long way in winning a match. I'm not saying he did it all by himself(Messi), but that team would have been nothing special without him.
BTW, i'm not comparing Ole to Guardiola, i'm comparing the circumstances.

Hypothetically, if Ole took over the squad SAF left behind, do you believe he would have let us drop to the position we are in right now? I don't think so, i think he would have done pretty well with a team full of experienced internationals and added some decent players to compliment the older ones and definitely introduced the younger ones to the first team. He wouldn't have to go through all this BS of creating a culture again. The job is far greater than some simpletons make it out to be.
He would not have ripped that squad up and we would have had a natural progression into building a new team.

Nope he got rid of Ronaldinho, Deco, Eto'o their most well known and best players at the time. He gave Iniesta and Xavi promonent roles, Brought in Pique as a main CB, brought in a young Busquets, brought in Dani Alves etc He got rid of "deadwood", took risks, brought through youth, bought ridiculously well, successfully changed the style of how they used to play and won the 2 biggest trophies all in one year.

 

[Bilbo]

The Ole criticism breakdown:

United lose - criticism of the last performance (10%). Criticism of players (10%). Out of his depth (30%). Tactically inept (40%). Miscellaneous (10%)

United win - Oles CV before United (35%). Comparisons with Klopp and Pep (35%). Summer signings (10%). Comparisons with Jose & LVG (10%). Game raisers/underdog mentality/low block (5%). Miscellaneous (5%)

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

Ole speaking like Moyes again - but to be honest, I don't think any of us expect a title challenge next season based on what we've seen so far.

 

[Member 113277]

I am starting to be more convinced by the give Ole more time argument. However, it still feels like giving someone the job of headteacher of a school because they were a good student.

Mostly seems to be “let him buy some new players and then see how he does”, so we better get on and do that then.

I'd like to see him have more time for a three reasons - firstly there is the risk of changing to another big name coach who doesn't deliver, brings in lots of players who then don't fit for the next big name choach and so the cycle goes on.

Secondly, a big name doesn't guarantee results - Pochetino, for example - won what at Spurs?

The third and most compelling reason is progress; yep, not startling, not spectacular, but after 7 long years I feel that there is a plan for the future and steps are being taken. I expect infuriating inconsistency for a while longer, but not forever and strengthening the midfield will assist - the club needs to get its act together and sign Bruno Fernandes or someone similar ASAP and another solid option as well.

Plenty of people cite Ole's lack of pedigree from Swansea and Molde and the facts are plain to see; but that is only one side of the picture - unlike Moyes at Utd, Ole took on a basket case in Cardiff and with hindsight it was bad move for him; his scope for achievement/growth at Molde was limited by the scale of the club/league.

From what I've seen at Utd, he has not displayed the 'rabbit caught in the headlights' attitude of Moyes and he is learning as he goes - from the way he's tackled the player issues after JM, I believe he learned man management skills at Utd, Cardiff and Molde - the reshaping of the squad to date shows that, although there is more to do. Also, he has learned to manage the press well. Now there are signs of good youth players breaking through (qudos to the youth setup, for developing them and to Ole for playing them - acknowledginmg that some are by default). He is still a relatively new coach, so the question remains, will be learn to be more flexible in tactics to put out teams that can all oppositions, not just those who are vulnerable to the fast counter attack.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Some factual errors here though, which comprimises some of your points.

Jones was signed when we had an interim manager. His influences on that deal is vague. Not sure he had anything to do with it at all to be fair.

When it comes to Mata, he aint taking anyones places in the first team. A very intelligent player who is happy being a backup option. One of the few creative sparks aswell. Why get rid of him? He hasnt stolen any game time for anyone who didnt deserve it.

Andreas is young, given him away for free, would be nothing but stupid. We also have little options in midfield, and he has proven that sometimes he can be a option. The manager, newly recruited at the time, cant be blamed for Woodwards failure to re-inforce.
This has also been happening during other managers regime

When it comes to Young, people are now complaining about him maybe leaving, so that extension was maybe a smart move?

Ole has said it many times, he's building a core or players. Scott, Maguire, Rashford and Martial. Then we have youngsters very much improving aswell. With that group and a few inforcements we could see a whole new United.

I for one, see an actual plan behind this rebuild, and when you look at the progression being made by the players he wants to be a core, its actual progression.

No matter how one chooses to spin it, the fact of the matter is that all these players were given extensions under Solskjaer's reign. And they are all players who are constantly being used as an excuse for the lack of answers to the problems we often face on the pitch. Arguments like "how can you expect us to win the midfield battle with Pereira in the team, what creativity are you talking about with Mata as the play-maker, he's been forced to play Young and Jones again", all these things come from the posters who defend Solskjaer to the hilt and can see nothing wrong with what he's done thus far. The same posters are also suggesting that by the end of his initial three-year contract, Solskjaer will present us a whole new squad, capable of better things, that will lead us to the future. What i did was simply mention that all these players, who his supporters believe hinder the whole progress, are going to be here at the end of the 2021-22 season (with exception of Young).

You also spent a lot of words to absolve him of any blame when the man himself has admitted that no player comes, goes or stays without him being asked and without him having a say in the matter. It's Solskjaer's words, not mine. But feel free too put it all on Woodward. Ed should take the blame for many things but he's not the devil incarnate like some people want to present him.

As for me, the day all of Lingard, Mata, Jones, Pereira, Shaw and Young will stop being treated as assets and as valuable players by the club and the manager (any manager) will be a good day for the club. So, no... no smart moves here for me.