It's PTSD
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
- Thread starter MrSingh2002
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Idiotic really who in this team can create?
Pogba yes but has been injured the entire season.
Mata is a glorified Blogger.
Jesse could never create in a traditional sense. His movement used to help make chances but even now he has lost that.
Pereira is doing better in the middle than on the right but at the end of the day he is not of the quality needed.
The way I see it is Ole is only here in name and zero merit. So I don't really see the point in continuing with him since one he said it was his decision not to buy more in the summer and he is now implying he won't look for more in Jan.
Therefore nothing will change and we are all wasting our time.
Said we have the players to create and we have to find a way to get them to do that. Said it can't be a case of always looking outside.
Idiotic really who in this team can create?
Pogba yes but has been injured the entire season.
Mata is a glorified Blogger.
Jesse could never create in a traditional sense. His movement used to help make chances but even now he has lost that.
Pereira is doing better in the middle than on the right but at the end of the day he is not of the quality needed.
The way I see it is Ole is only here in name and zero merit. So I don't really see the point in continuing with him since one he said it was his decision not to buy more in the summer and he is now implying he won't look for more in Jan.
Therefore nothing will change and we are all wasting our time.
Yeah when you take away the wins against crap european teams its absolutely abysmal really.
Seriously?
King scored his 2nd goal of the season yesterday. Billing played for a relegation side last year and has 6 PL games this year. Callum Wilson has 1 season scoring more than 10 goals in PL and was at League One 5 years ago. Harry Wilson is a Pool loanee in his first PL season.
Martial alone is worth as their front 6 put together.
If our front six was like Bournemouth you would have fans on suicide watch around here.
You cannot be serious. The underrating of our squad is quite something here. The lengths some of you will go just to excuse an inept failing manager is unbelievable.
Is there some kind of media censorship? Literally none of the journos commenting on Ole or United losing. Very similar to when Moyes was in charge, then I remember LVG came in and we lost our first few games and back pages were mocking him, every journalist had something to say on twitter etc.
1) They are not surprised, despite campaigning for him to be made permanent manager.
2) Journalist rely on contacts. So either they know the United board are not getting rid of Ole anytime soon and so won’t risk calling a spade a spade or they are just following the lead of ex players who are now in the media themselves
1) They are not surprised, despite campaigning for him to be made permanent manager.
2) Journalist rely on contacts. So either they know the United board are not getting rid of Ole anytime soon and so won’t risk calling a spade a spade or they are just following the lead of ex players who are now in the media themselves
It's abysmal with them mate.
I'm not one of these people who dislike Ole either. Would like nothing more for him to have succeeded.
But let's be honest, he has shown very little and has shown to be extremely naive.
We improved our defence but by Oles own admission he chose not to replace Herrera Lukaku and Sanchez. We can only take him on his word at that.
And that decision has had a knock in effect one due to injuries and two because we now have no subs to use when we are chasing a game. This is why Ole tends to wait so late with subs I assume.
So while he was left a bad squad he was complicit in making it worse. And for me there was no excuses for that. I called it in the summer as did many others. So that makes me ask how can a premier League manager not see what me a fan can see?
Maybe I’m wrong, but I think Moyes was very generous with journalists early on, as it seems OGS is. Maybe that gives them an easier ride, at least initially?
There's definitely some friendship based reporting. Castles has been open about it. Jose friend, no?
So what's the latest argument to keep Ole? I will take a guess-
-his signings has been great and he knows what to be done in the long term.
-Many players are injured and so once they are back, we will do better?
- even if we sack him, our squad is not good enough to beat league 1 sides at home. Since no one better is available, lets keep him ?
Anything else
-his signings has been great and he knows what to be done in the long term.
-Many players are injured and so once they are back, we will do better?
- even if we sack him, our squad is not good enough to beat league 1 sides at home. Since no one better is available, lets keep him ?
Anything else
I just go back to that time regarding the clubs confident,bullish response towards Ferguson's announcement (that he'll be retiring from the game) that a contingency plan was well in place and United will continue to build on from Ferguson's impeccable foundations and persist to fight for biggest prizes, both domestically and abroad.
Now fast forward to the present and here we are on our 4th manager in the space 6 years (time goes by so fast) relying on the least experienced manager in top flight football to get us out of this rut.
Quite funny really.
Now fast forward to the present and here we are on our 4th manager in the space 6 years (time goes by so fast) relying on the least experienced manager in top flight football to get us out of this rut.
Quite funny really.
We do need more players, however:
1. There is no guarantee the new players will be successful buys. Even the best managers of all time have 50-50 rate when it comes transfers.
2. He can't coach the new players, nor bring in successful strategy based on what we have seen and on his track record.
3. There seems to be no plan B on the transfer market as well. For every top target we fail to identify a replacement and there is no chance all of our top targets agree to come and also be allowed to leave at a right price.
No doubt our academy grads are overrated, but that's also down on Ole starting the season like this and pinning our hopes on a long hard season with such an underwhelming midfield line and also backups.
As for Leicester - Tielemans was available at a very good price, we didn't entertain that. Mendi, Söyüncü, Ndidi - all excellent prospects were available at very good price at the time and there are many players that would be open to come and that would cost significantly less than Maddison and Maguire types - yet this doesn't seem to be our transfer strategy nor aligned with our "core values" and "United way".
Leicester have bought smart but were also very average under Puel and only when they got a very good manager in their results and overall game began improving. We also took one of their best players this Summer, who they replaced with a youngster and still look a ton lot better than us.
When the results aren't improving and our game also isn't improving you need to sack the manager. It's what every other club literally does. In terms of pressure - there absolutely have to have one. We're a big club and there is always pressure, if you can't handle it and you are the manager then you are not good enough, simple as.
Again, Klopp is not a valid example. Klopp was one of the best managers around and he came with those credentials. Klopp changed the way they played and that was visible from day one.
Compare it to Ole - we play significantly worse than under any other manager we had post Fergie and his results are significantly worse.
When the new manager comes in and if those players are not performing, he would show them the door. But the biggest difference to novice manager like Ole, is that most probably he will replace them.
They have though. Both of them had to resort to putting their faith in unproven explayers. Zidane did very well in the CL with a terrific squad, but did horribly in the league. In fact Real Madrid have only won the league once the last 10 years and considering La Liga is a two horse race, that is pretty bad. Clearly their practice of sacking and hiring is not working out too well. And Lampard despite having a good start was also a huge gamble. Ole did also have a terrific start here, so lets see how they deal with it when the injures comes to key players and they hit a rough patch of from. Also head to head Lampard-Ole is 1-5 in goals despite the latter apparently being the managerial Antichrist
Poorly worded from me. I meant they got terminated from their contract, and yes i do in fact believe Jose needed to be sacked because he was in full meltdown. Changing managers mid season is always a messy affair and apart from some temporary bounce it is almost always a bad idea. In Joses case it was not only down to us looking defeat before the kick off, but because there were daily stories about full on warfare inside the club and it had to stop. And no, i do not think Ole deserves three years. As i said, if we look as clueless in May as we do now then we should part ways with Ole and i think all parties will admit this has not worked out. That will tell whoever is next that you will get ATLEAST a full preseason and season to work things out. So if we sack Ole now and the new guy fails to make an immediate impact and get top 4/6, do we sack him as well? Who then would we hire? For any up and coming manager, money is not enough if it means you get your reputation ruined.
And as strange as it sounds, i would much rather end up 8th than 6th because Thursday night football fecks up your league form to no end
Absolute fecking bollocks. We're defending better than we have since LVG (Mourinho's effect on Lindelof aside), and we're creating more than we did under LVG for sure, feck me I hated watching that team. And if you're comparing this to Moyes you're just taking the fecking piss. He took a team of champions to 7th place at a time where the rest of the league was pretty shite!
If he’s said there would be no January signings then he may as well go now. His only defence is that ‘time and money’ argument and if he’s not spending the money then what are we doing with ourselves.
Either way, even if we do spend the money in January with him then why the feck weren’t we doing it in the summer? Did a couple million just magic out of nowhere in the space of 4 months between the windows? Our buying strategy is really fecking poor the past few years with the most recent example being the board unwilling to sanction the Maguire deal for Jose, then a year later they want him, Leicester want £80m, try to haggle for weeks and still end up paying £80m, when we could have paid £60m a year before.
I’m still apportioning some blame on OGS for our transfers. Has he really bought well if he’s totally neglected the midfield and attack? The way he speaks gives off the impression that he thinks he can do what Sir Alex did in the nineties and just get by with young, British players who may or may not come from the academy... Problem is football has changed significantly since then and that bunch of youngsters were a one off event that barely ever happens and luckily for us it was at Utd. Is that all he knows possibly? A good 80% of his career was spent under one man, so he’s never really worked under a variety of regimes like someone like Lampard has.
Also I don’t like this aura the clubs giving off that they’re fixated on one certain player and if they can’t get that player then forget it, like supposedly with Jadon Sancho or Sean Longstaff... Do we not have alternative targets? Pretty sure a lot of successful Sir Alex buys were alternative targets. Even if Sancho is one of the most talented young players at the moment, there’s still no guarantee he’d be as good for us anyway and there are plenty of fish in the sea and undoubtedly there’s some hidden gems out there.
Either way, even if we do spend the money in January with him then why the feck weren’t we doing it in the summer? Did a couple million just magic out of nowhere in the space of 4 months between the windows? Our buying strategy is really fecking poor the past few years with the most recent example being the board unwilling to sanction the Maguire deal for Jose, then a year later they want him, Leicester want £80m, try to haggle for weeks and still end up paying £80m, when we could have paid £60m a year before.
I’m still apportioning some blame on OGS for our transfers. Has he really bought well if he’s totally neglected the midfield and attack? The way he speaks gives off the impression that he thinks he can do what Sir Alex did in the nineties and just get by with young, British players who may or may not come from the academy... Problem is football has changed significantly since then and that bunch of youngsters were a one off event that barely ever happens and luckily for us it was at Utd. Is that all he knows possibly? A good 80% of his career was spent under one man, so he’s never really worked under a variety of regimes like someone like Lampard has.
Also I don’t like this aura the clubs giving off that they’re fixated on one certain player and if they can’t get that player then forget it, like supposedly with Jadon Sancho or Sean Longstaff... Do we not have alternative targets? Pretty sure a lot of successful Sir Alex buys were alternative targets. Even if Sancho is one of the most talented young players at the moment, there’s still no guarantee he’d be as good for us anyway and there are plenty of fish in the sea and undoubtedly there’s some hidden gems out there.
We're defending in greater numbers yet we still conceded every game. We have had several games with 0 shots on target yet we're creating more? I'm not sure you watch the same games.
Results wise you can easily compare every manager's record and Ole's comfortably the worst, it isn't even debatable.
Ole took a team that finished 2nd 18 months ago, spend 150m this Summer and we're currently bottom half. Is that better?
If you want to use stats to make false comparisons go ahead, but the eye test tells you we have created a few good chances in almost every game this year, and yes we're making a few silly mistakes in defence but we did under LVG and Mourinho also, it's not new. You clearly don't remember how many games we created absolutely nothing in under LVG if you're saying we defend in greater numbers and create less now.
And Moyes. Just don't even start. What a fecking useless knobhead, I could have coached that team better. I'm absolutely sure that's not the case with any of LVG, Mourinho or Ole.
The main thing is that the spirit is as close to right as it's been since Fergie left, as long as that remains the case then I'll give Ole the benefit of the doubt.
So what's the latest argument to keep Ole? I will take a guess-
-his signings has been great and he knows what to be done in the long term.
-Many players are injured and so once they are back, we will do better?
- even if we sack him, our squad is not good enough to beat league 1 sides at home. Since no one better is available, lets keep him ?
Anything else
You forgot the positive signs are there to see/we're moving in the right direction.
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Unfortunately the people in charge are absolutely clueless in what's best for the club. This seasons plan seemed to be, let's get rid of our top earners, don't bring in reinforcements, we'll say its a long term plan and we'll throw our young players under the bus just so we can buy Avram his new yacht. For that Ole was the perfect candidate. You or I could of came in as manager to do that and I don't think the club would be much worse points wise.
His signings have had great starts. But like I said a while back we need to see if they develop, maintain, or regress under his management. Maguire hasn’t been to great recently. To early to say if AWB will add the attacking side to his game, or if James will develop from raw talent to polished attacker. But I know for certain I’d fancy the chances of those players becoming world class more under a different manager.So what's the latest argument to keep Ole? I will take a guess-
-his signings has been great and he knows what to be done in the long term.
-Many players are injured and so once they are back, we will do better?
- even if we sack him, our squad is not good enough to beat league 1 sides at home. Since no one better is available, lets keep him ?
Anything else
Ole wouldn't get a job in the top two tiers of English football when he gets sacked. That says it all imo.
You are the typical deluded fan that thinks all our players are amazing just because they play for Manchester United. There's absolutely no way any of Bournemouth's players would ever get a game over superstars like Pereira and Fred
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He's bought himself some time and the league table is very evenly spread out with United on 13 points midtable, with 3 points more putting us 6th very close to 5th and 3 points less putting us just above relegation zone. A home win against Brighton will be good for him.
I did vote to sack him but that time has gone now. I feel the club will stick with him during the season as long as we're in the top half and only occasionally in the bottom half and look for a long term target.
I did vote to sack him but that time has gone now. I feel the club will stick with him during the season as long as we're in the top half and only occasionally in the bottom half and look for a long term target.
Again we react slowly. A passionate, cup finalesque performance against Liverpool (remember the time when it was the other way around?), a win vs a awful Norwich (Sheffield thrashed Brighton yesterday, these scores always happen between weak teams) and Chelsea's reserves should not mask anything.
My biggest fear is that he will eventually get sacked in March when we are fighting for the mighty tenth spot, out of Europa League, our only way to CL. I don't understand why we make the same mistakes. It was the same with Moyes and LVG. In order to pay less for their compensation we threw away 2 seasons. Imaging replacing LVG with Kloop in November of 2015 or even with Jose in December. But no, we had to wait until the end of the season.
Should we give a new manager 2 months to evaluate his squad until the next transfer window? Hell no, we have to insist with a defensive minded coach who believes he is an attacking minded one.
If we appoint someone now and we can't see any improvement till the summer we should fire him too. Madrid fired Benitez in order not to throw away a whole season. Look what happened.
And regarding SAF's third year: SAF had won the SPL with St Mirren, after promoting them, and an european cup with frecking Aberdeen. Also, SAF didn't have in his first years the 4th most expensive squad. SAF was the exception not the rule. Perhaps, if OGS had won a European cup with Molde and a championship with Cardiff, the argument could make some sense.
My biggest fear is that he will eventually get sacked in March when we are fighting for the mighty tenth spot, out of Europa League, our only way to CL. I don't understand why we make the same mistakes. It was the same with Moyes and LVG. In order to pay less for their compensation we threw away 2 seasons. Imaging replacing LVG with Kloop in November of 2015 or even with Jose in December. But no, we had to wait until the end of the season.
Should we give a new manager 2 months to evaluate his squad until the next transfer window? Hell no, we have to insist with a defensive minded coach who believes he is an attacking minded one.
If we appoint someone now and we can't see any improvement till the summer we should fire him too. Madrid fired Benitez in order not to throw away a whole season. Look what happened.
And regarding SAF's third year: SAF had won the SPL with St Mirren, after promoting them, and an european cup with frecking Aberdeen. Also, SAF didn't have in his first years the 4th most expensive squad. SAF was the exception not the rule. Perhaps, if OGS had won a European cup with Molde and a championship with Cardiff, the argument could make some sense.
I have no complaints with the 3 we brought in, but Lukaku and Herera should have been replaced also. Woodward knew what he was doing holding back Lukaku until last day. We had no time to get in a replacement. 100 milion to spend on a rebuild is not what a big club like Manchester United is about.
Think you are missing the point of their midfield allows the rest of their team to operate as it does.
You could probaby put our midfield into their team and have simlair effect for the most part, due to ther full backs, and firmino dropping in to link the play. We dont have such creativity from those positions so need someone in midfield to provide it. Also as for Wiljdruim, hes still a threat that opposition players have to worry about, he still pops in with important goals, its just that attacking responsibilities is taken up more by the front 3 and full backs
This. The lowered expectations are unbelieable. We can't even make the top 4 trophy after 6 seasons of transition.
King in his EPL career before this season scored 6, 16, 8, 12. Rashford scored 5, 5, 7, 10. Wilson scored 5, 6, 8, 14 and Martial scored 11, 4, 9, 10. Even without considering goals, there isn't any distinct difference in technique and skill between those four, except Martial perhaps.
Harry Wilson was in the Championship last season and is in his first season in the EPL, but so is Daniel James and some would argue that Wilson was the better performer in the Championship last season. Wilson scored 14 with 4 assists, James, 4, 7.
Pereira has proven to be meh and I wouldn't bother comparing him to the overwhelming better Fraser, and I don't think Fred has performed any better than the £25m Lemar since joining the league.
McTominay should be playing for a relegation level club just like Billing was last season. The likes of Newcastle, Watford has midfielders who are as good.
We have an expensive defence and a world record Pogba, and that's it. The front six we fielded yesterday is no better than the one Bournemouth fielded - the squad is weak and incredibly light. I know you are going to bring up Solskjaer selling Lukaku, but that's not the point.
Yep.
From the confident chest beating statement of continually being the leagues top dogs to the now lowered expectations of accepting being in the top 10 as 'it isn't all that bad' ,while the word transition is repetitiously overused, then,overall,the continue fall of United's high standards is unquestionably a somewhat bad joke.
Looking at the clubs crumbling status from the outside,while OT itself is looking in the need of a £100 million makeover, you'd wonder what the attraction is for top players and managers.
The only attraction United have now,and its dwindling due to the present, is its past.
If this is true then we are well and truly in a relegation battle. With hopes pinned on Pogba (who hasn’t played well bc or Ole since he got the job) to come back and save our blushes, then who else is going to improve us going forward?
Ole cant get a consistent note out of this team. He think the likes of Lingard are the answer. New signings are starting to go backwards from last seasons performances (aside from James) and ole is continuing to look totally inept at this level.
The January window was our only hope of finishing mid table.
It's quite funny that Ole's recordbreaking amazing start as interim manager has actually completely destroyed us. He would never been appointed as a permanent manager otherwise. Now we have a thinned squad and possibly the worst manager in the league. All lot of the blame has go to the players and the manager, but mostly I blame woody.
Agree, and the Glazers don't seem to worry about the stadium in need of repair, or us needing 5/6 top players ASAP.
This is where I have to disagree with some of your assumptions. I do agree that Leicester has better players than some of ours. But Ole could have got those kinds of player last summer but he refused to go for those kinds of players. This is another instance where I find fault with him. This is the same thinking as Moyes. We and the club and the Manager needs to get their heads out of there arses. What made Manchester United attractive to many players was the fact that the club had a legendary manager and was always known to win some trophy and always challenging for the PL and the CL.
So when the status quo changes and when the Manager is no longer there and when the club is not winning trophies that attraction goes. We need not go too far to remember what RVP said. He said he came to United to win trophies. Is any player now going to say that he is going to Manchester United to win the PL? If they said so they would be laughed off and be told of that they better be in an mental asylum.
Ole Gunnar is not going to get top world class players to come to OT to be coached by him. The same way Moyes found about this. It would have been much better if he had gone for those kind of players who are better than what we have now.
But again there is nothing to say that he can get the best out of them anyway. He is a mediocre coach and he should never have been at Manchester United as the Manager.
Even Big Sam now would get this team playing a lot better and to their potential.
People called it too. There was zero reason to make him permanent before the season ended. Zero!
This is all so toxic again. I'm glad I've taken a bit of a break from this debate and have been watching only the games. The team seems to be doing much better over the last few games, and yesterday there was a big drop in performance levels after the first 10 minutes.
As a coach, Ole will have to look into that. The team does go into long phases of abject, laboured football, and Ole doesn't do enough the make them keep their tempo up. Last night, his changes were also too late. The change in system had a big impact, but should have been done 60-65 minutes in, not 80. Our team needed that impetus / signal of intent from the bench.
I'm hoping Ole is learning, and will keep wishing that these things get better over the course of the season. It will be very important for the board to back Ole and allow a no. 10 to be signed in January. If they are not already working on it, it would be gross negligence. The number of times our play broke down around Andreas yesterday was very obvious.
As a coach, Ole will have to look into that. The team does go into long phases of abject, laboured football, and Ole doesn't do enough the make them keep their tempo up. Last night, his changes were also too late. The change in system had a big impact, but should have been done 60-65 minutes in, not 80. Our team needed that impetus / signal of intent from the bench.
I'm hoping Ole is learning, and will keep wishing that these things get better over the course of the season. It will be very important for the board to back Ole and allow a no. 10 to be signed in January. If they are not already working on it, it would be gross negligence. The number of times our play broke down around Andreas yesterday was very obvious.
It was cheaper
No they could have made him permanent in the summer for the same price.
I'm not underrating anybody. Man Utd fans should know that this is no longer the blockster, big-money, big-name squad we used to have under Mourinho. Lukaku is gone, Herrera is gone. The likes of Fellaini, Mkhitaryan, Sanchez, Smalling, Valencia, Zlatan are all gone. Mata is older, Matic has rarely played, and two of our three most talented players - Shaw and Pogba has been unfit or unavailable.
The XI we fielded against Bournemouth, three of our front six cost nothing, one of the other three cost 19m from the Championship, one of the other two is Fred. Martial himself has been unavailable for most games this season. Each of the three subs we brought on against Bournemouth cost nothing, and when a squad cost nothing you'd expect immediate nothing performances. The players that cost nothing are no Zlatan or Dani Alves either.
Our front six and subs last game:
Fred - £47m
Martial - £36m
James - £20m
McTominay - Nothing
Pereira - Nothing
Rashford - Nothing
Lingard - Nothing
Greenwood - Nothing
Williams - Nothing
Who is going to create, who is going to score, who is going to change the game from the bench?
I don't think Solskjaer is good enough and feel he should be doing better, but that does not mean the squad is not poor. We've had three expensive defenders available, but that's it.
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