Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[MrSingh2002]

Think this thread has had it's day.




Well OP it's happened. What'll it take to close the thread? To be in the title race come March or what?

Very happy we won both and winning the game in hand takes us to 2nd.

For me to think Ole is the best man for the job he would need to use the squad more effectively. The Leeds game was an example of what some of the frozen out players can do when used. Dan James was a key player. I want to see games afforded to Tuanzebe, Williams with more use of VdB.

Ole very slowly seems to be going away from just playing the same 11 players. He's a slow learner but he is making improvements. He's learning on the job and the argument could be made that he is now better than a year or a few months ago.

Substitutions is another area he needs to improve as he constantly makes changes too late to affect the game in a positive way when the game is crying out for improvements.

The thing in Oles favour now is that there aren't many alternatives that you could argue are better for Man Utd than him. Only Klopp and Ancelotti standout for me as he did well vs Nagelsmann and Tuchel.

He should have been backed in the market with a centre back and Sancho. If he gets that in January/Summer I would predict he does well. Our squad is now good enough to challenge for the top 2. With another centreback and one creative right winger I would expect the squad should be challenging for the league. There are high expectations at this club and from the fans. For me to not want the Man Utd manager sacked he would have to be winning trophies and getting the best out of the playing squad. It's not about Ole personally.

To answer your question directly.... To delete the thread he'd have to win a trophy or get the very best out of this squad. So a trophy or a 2nd place finish and I'll delete it happily.

 

[Mickson]

This is exactly the problem . Irrelevant stats like "since Bruno joined ", "Ole as a care taker manager" etc . No one cares about such things and it doesn't get us what we want.

You know what's relevant? Our points end of the season which was 65 points last season ( a zero increase from 65 points of previous year despite spending 200m) with a mid- table PPG of 1.76. Yes, solid mid table record despite spending 200m.

So let's talk again, when you have a meaningful stat to argue. Until then you can be happy with your 'assumptions' while I will go with 'facts'.

I'm not going to join this debate but it's pretty laughable and it says something about it when you must twist and turn with a stat. "Since he joined.. since the world fell apart.. since..." Since when has anyone counted football merits based on what has happened since a specific date or happening? All that matters are the stats after a season has finished. Where we are in May is what Ole is going to be judged on.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

If it were following results, no one would really want him sacked this year because he's had tremendous 2020 form. The problem has been performance levels but even as someone doubting Ole I've been happily crediting him with multiple performances that have been great (Leipzig OT, Southampton, Bashaktahir, Leeds, quite liked Sheffield as we hit 3 past them, Everton wasn't an easy win but we deserved it, etc)

This is a very fair point and is perhaps the biggest difference on how people are rating Ole. Some see results as the only metric while others look at how those results are obtained. Personally I'm in the latter which is why I'm still not 100% certain that Ole is the man to win us trophies, ditto the man to take us forward.

Leeds was obviously a great game to watch but after 13 matches i think Leeds and against Everton were the only 2 games were we where pretty comfortable throughout the match even if we did go a goal down against Everton. We had some terrible halves and some great ones like against Southampton which shows the players are on Oles side but for me the question is, is it enough?

Saying that, now is not the time to sack Ole. Performances aside (and we have had some great ones) we're still in a great position in the league and while that continues it would be madness to sack him but that doesn't mean I want him to sign another 3 year contract like many others are prepared to do. If we're still in the running come the end of the season and are playing more consistent football then we can talk but until then my vote stays the same. There's been too many ups and downs over Oles tenure to be 100% certain either way.

 

[justsomebloke]

I'm not going to join this debate but it's pretty laughable and it says something about it when you must twist and turn with a stat. "Since he joined.. since the world fell apart.. since..." Since when has anyone counted football merits based on what has happened since a specific date or happening? All that matters are the stats after a season has finished. Where we are in May is what Ole is going to be judged on.

Unless you want to make an effort to understand how things are developing, of course. If not, there seems nothing else to do than sit back and wait for the season to end before having an opinion. Are you doing that?

 

[Leftback99]

I'm not going to join this debate but it's pretty laughable and it says something about it when you must twist and turn with a stat. "Since he joined.. since the world fell apart.. since..." Since when has anyone counted football merits based on what has happened since a specific date or happening? All that matters are the stats after a season has finished. Where we are in May is what Ole is going to be judged on.

Odd that the same poster was demanding that the manager be sacked 2 games into the season then.

 

[Verminator]

Trajectory is a very important thing in the way the world runs. It powers businesses, the stock market and economies.

The things that may be mapped in determining this, in relation to our club, range from stats like points accrued, table position, goals scored or conceded, to entertainment, pride, likeability, connection etc.

If we are all using different metrics, and discounting others, people will disagree.
There won't be consensus.

The problem is dogmatism. Some people will stick to their view, and change their choice of metrics to support their point of view.

All of this is done in a sphere of absolutes.
If we win or lose, it proves that every opinion they have expressed is right.
Or, it is a blip that doesn't disprove their overall point, "Just wait until..."

This renders debate pointless.

Unfortunately, the more level-headed and realistic amongst us, take a backseat, because they recognise that shouting over panicked geese will only hurt their voice, and risk their sanity.

This is what the Caf has become.

 

[Tom Cato]

This is exactly the problem . Irrelevant stats like "since Bruno joined ", "Ole as a care taker manager" etc . No one cares about such things and it doesn't get us what we want.

You know what's relevant? Our points end of the season which was 65 points last season ( a zero increase from 65 points of previous year despite spending 200m) with a mid- table PPG of 1.76. Yes, solid mid table record despite spending 200m.

So let's talk again, when you have a meaningful stat to argue. Until then you can be happy with your 'assumptions' while I will go with 'facts'.

We're 4 points the best season start since 2007. Most season starts have been either worse or better by 1-2 points.

We've won the league several times with less points at this stage of the season.

My assumption is that we win our game in hand against Burnley for 29points after 14 rounds.

So by the value you're after, sit down.

 

[Trezeguet17]

For me the Ole in/out thing has more to do with his possible replacement.

As @eire-red said above, is Ole our Klopp? Will he lead us back to glory respectively being one of the absolute best teams in the world? I don't believe so.

If we would replace him with someone like Rodgers i am fully behind Ole. Then keep him. Makes no sense to replace him with someone who is just a marginal better Manager if even so.

But if we can get someone like Nagelsmann who is absolutely set to become one of the best Managers in the world for the next 30+ years, then be ruthless just like other top teams and sack him.

 

[Bobcat]

Odd that the same poster was demanding that the manager be sacked 2 games into the season then.

And plenty of people were more than happy to leave out his time as caretaker when discussing win rate last season.

2020 is brought up because before that time we suffered from a massive creative void in midfield

 

[Mickson]

Unless you want to make an effort to understand how things are developing, of course. If not, there seems nothing else to do than sit back and wait for the season to end before having an opinion. Are you doing that?

Obviously, you can have an opinion. But you can't justify any success based on "since that date!" when he hasn't had any form of success in the league.

 

[90 + 5min]

For me the Ole in/out thing has more to do with his possible replacement.

As @eire-red said above, is Ole our Klopp? Will he lead us back to glory respectively being one of the absolute best teams in the world? I don't believe so.

If we would replace him with someone like Rodgers i am fully behind Ole. Then keep him. Makes no sense to replace him with someone who is just a marginal better Manager if even so.

But if we can get someone like Nagelsmann who is absolutely set to become one of the best Managers in the world for the next 30+ years, then be ruthless just like other top teams and sack him.

What has Nagelsmann done that people can say something like absolutely set to become one of the best managers? People need to calm down until he has atleast won something. This reminds me of Pochettino-talk a year ago.

Why are people obsessed with sacking a manager that is pushing us towards something good? What normal club sacks a manager that is making its team better and better?

 

[Zen86]

Absolutely set to become one of the best managers in the world for the next 30+ years... good grief.

 

[united for life]

For me the Ole in/out thing has more to do with his possible replacement.

As @eire-red said above, is Ole our Klopp? Will he lead us back to glory respectively being one of the absolute best teams in the world? I don't believe so.

If we would replace him with someone like Rodgers i am fully behind Ole. Then keep him. Makes no sense to replace him with someone who is just a marginal better Manager if even so.

But if we can get someone like Nagelsmann who is absolutely set to become one of the best Managers in the world for the next 30+ years, then be ruthless just like other top teams and sack him.

why would we sack a manager who is doing well progressing the team? Would we really be doing the right thing to sack him for Nagelsmann? How can we guarantee that he is not another Villas Boas? Wasn’t he supposed to be the next Jose? What happened? He went to chelsea for a year, another year with spurs and then all down hill.

the problem is that some fans are looking for a replacement when we actually don’t need one at the moment. Why are we sanctioning Ole as not for the future? Isn’t the team showing progress? This is only Ole’s second season (also not properly backed in the summer) and we are doing well in general. Still need to improve, but you don’t sack a manager for being 3rd in the table.

world class managers like mourinho and LVG ended up losing thr plot as they focused in instant success with high profile signings without properly building the team. Ole is doing the opposite. Building a young team full of talent. This team has good talented players who can play for years at united. Getting more experienced and maturing will only make this team better.

why would we sack Ole? Players don’t develop under his coaching? Not true. Fred did, mctominay did, rashford and martial did. He made the right signings. He didn’t just sign random “stars” just to add high profile names to the team.

i’m not saying that there aren’t any areas for development, for sure there are. But you don’t sack a manager for that when he actually showed that he is improving the team.

at least, football is exciting again.

 

[Mickson]

If we had Klopp, we could win the league this season. We won't win the league with Ole. I think that's enough for me. Ole has done some things, he has started rebuilding. But I don't see anything that suggests that he has what it takes to take United to the top. He isn't tactically gifted. Fergie didn't have tactics as his strenght, but he realized that and he brought in Maulensteen, Quieroz, etc.

 

[90 + 5min]

If we had Klopp, we could win the league this season. We won't win the league with Ole. I think that's enough for me. Ole has done some things, he has started rebuilding. But I don't see anything that suggests that he has what it takes to take United to the top. He isn't tactically gifted. Fergie didn't have tactics as his strenght, but he realized that and he brought in Maulensteen, Quieroz, etc.

That is why Klopp needed 4 season to win a trophy at Liverpool.
That is why Klopp has won 4 trophies in 5 years there.

Give manager time and have patience.

 

[justsomebloke]

Obviously, you can have an opinion. But you can't justify any success based on "since that date!" when he hasn't had any form of success in the league.

But you can if the date that's since is the start of the season, and once the season has ended? And nothing done before the season is over constitutes "any form of success", although the exact same things become the final and incontrovertible measure of success the second the season ends? Okay. Catch you in four months then.

 

[Mickson]

That is why Klopp needed 4 season to win a trophy at Liverpool.
That is why Klopp has won 4 trophies in 5 years where.

Give manager time and have patience.

Yes, but I don't think that Ole has merited that, not LvG, Moyes, or Mourinho either. Liverpool had patience with Hodgson, Benitez, Rodgers, Dalglish. You can't just have patience for the sake of it.

But you can if the date that's since is the start of the season, and once the season has ended? And nothing done before the season is over constitutes "any form of success", although the exact same things become the final and incontrovertible measure of success the second the season ends? Okay. Catch you in four months then.

Obviously, that's the things that matter in football? Why the hell would it matter being good from January to May if you lost all your games from August to December and finished sixth?

 

[Eire Red United]

I'm very sceptical that Ole will bring us back to the top, and I'm probably more Ole out than in (constantly teetering either way I would say), but I'm delighted about our recent form, I haven't felt this anticipation and nervousness before United games in a long time. Under LVG and Mourinho it was almost like a chore watching sometimes, and the tragic results felt inevitable.

Probably not the best idea to paint everyone with the same brush. I would love it more than anything if Ole brings success back to OT. An ex player, and a legend at that, playing attacking and attractive football, with local lads representing all across the team. When it's good under Ole, it's so good. But I still have reservations about him being the one that will lead us forward. Does that mean I'm not a proper fan?

I’d say most people would be in the same camp as yourself, great to see Ole doing well but given he’s so unproven there are still questions. When we’re good, we’re a match for anyone but it’s getting that consistency.

 

[90 + 5min]

Yes, but I don't think that Ole has merited that, not LvG, Moyes, or Mourinho either. Liverpool had patience with Hodgson, Benitez, Rodgers, Dalglish. You can't just have patience for the sake of it.

We really have different view on patience. Patience (and time) for me is not 1-2 years. And as you can see, those who got time did well.

Benitez, 6 years and he did good.
Hodgson, 6 months.
Daglish, 1 1/2 year. (Daglish in 80's had time and patience)
Rodgers, 3 years and he did good.

What has not merited time and patience. Work of Solskjaer?

 

[RedTiger]

Liverpool had patience with Hodgson, Benitez, Rodgers, Dalglish

Hodgson and Dalglish got a season each, that's it. Benitez won some stuff in his time which justified the time given, Rodgers was a player's mistake away from winning the premier league.

 

[Mickson]

We really have different view on patience. Patience (and time) for me is not 1-2 years. And as you can see, those who got time did well.

Benitez, 6 years and he did good.
Hodgson, 6 months.
Daglish, 1 1/2 year.
Rodgers, 3 years and he did good.

What has not merited time and patience. Work of Solskjaer?

Good point actually. Rodgers did good, but Klopp took them to new heights. That's my problem right now. I think Ole does a lot of things well. But he's not Klopp, nor will he ever be.

 

[90 + 5min]

Good point actually. Rodgers did good, but Klopp took them to new heights. That's my problem right now. I think Ole does a lot of things well. But he's not Klopp, nor will he ever be.

You are right about Klopp getting them to new heights. I respect that opinion and agree that Solskjaer is not Klopp. But Klopp is not Solskjaer. We will see what, if given same time as Klopp, Solskjaer can achive. We might be here writing in 10 years where we compare Solskjaer to big managers. I say, let him have time. Let us have patience. As long as we show progress he should lead us.

 

[justsomebloke]

Obviously, that's the things that matter in football? Why the hell would it matter being good from January to May if you lost all your games from August to December and finished sixth?

Because that means something very good has has happened between the beginning and end of that season. And when that largely continues to happen through the first third of the next season, that probably means that you now have a team that is considerably better than it was August to December last year. Also, because it is possible - indeed profitable - to have more than one thought in your head at the same time. There's not one single way of looking at stats which is the only correct one.

 

[lex talionis]

Is it really necessary to be either firmly stuck in Ole In or Ole out?

Perhaps we should enjoy, or suffer, the matches as they come, and when the season has wrapped we drive our stake into the ground, In or Out.

 

[georgipep]

Yes, but I don't think that Ole has merited that, not LvG, Moyes, or Mourinho either. Liverpool had patience with Hodgson, Benitez, Rodgers, Dalglish. You can't just have patience for the sake of it.



Obviously, that's the things that matter in football? Why the hell would it matter being good from January to May if you lost all your games from August to December and finished sixth?

Then, if that's what matters, we finished third, right? I'd suggest you keep all negative comments for the season end.

 

[Rajma]

What’s going through his mind starting Bruno in a meaningless game? Imagine he gets injured in this.

 

[Zen86]

What’s going through his mind starting Bruno in a meaningless game? Imagine he gets injured in this.

I just knew this was going to be the thing they cling to tonight

 

[Rajma]

I just knew this was going to be the thing they cling to tonight

And? Tell me it’s a sensible thing to do running your best player to the ground or increasing a chance of him getting injured in 4th cup of England with no fans involved?

 

[Crustanoid]

What’s going through his mind starting Bruno in a meaningless game? Imagine he gets injured in this.

I guess he’s treating it as a PE lesson. Everyone has to play. Will probably send them all on a cross country run after the match.

 

[Zen86]

And? Tell me it’s a sensible thing to do running your best player to the ground or increasing a chance of him getting injured in 4th cup of England with no fans involved?

Suppose we didn’t play him and he gets injured in the next PL game

I’d rather we win this game than not.

 

[Andycoleno9]

What’s going through his mind starting Bruno in a meaningless game? Imagine he gets injured in this.

Going for trophy. After that debacle against Chelsea in FA cup last year i am very pleased that he goes for the win here

 

[Tiber]

Feck the haters. Ole is at the wheel and he isn't going anywhere

 

[remo]

Well, Ole is going after trophy. No vision at all - just give him some kind of trophy. What a shame....

 

[Will Singh]

Resting all those players but not our most important player, the player who is single handedly keeping him in a job!!! OLE OUT

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

This is the kind of game where if we lost, I’d fully understand the ”what can Ole do about a player missing a chance” type excuses.
For 30 mins it was pure dreamy domination. Best I’ve seen us play in years. Nothing more a manager can do there, feel like it might just be ”one of those games”.

 

[90 + 5min]

What’s going through his mind starting Bruno in a meaningless game? Imagine he gets injured in this.

Well, Ole is going after trophy. No vision at all - just give him some kind of trophy. What a shame....

Resting all those players but not our most important player, the player who is single handedly keeping him in a job!!! OLE OUT

Why am I not surprised.

 

[FujiVice]

When Rooney was on a booking in the semi against Arsenal in 2009, everyone was asking for him to be dropped. But he played. Some players dont want to be dropped and know their own body. Maybe Bruno doesnt feel as tired as the cafe suggests?

 

[TheBreadTruck]

Haha, damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

If he rotates people complain about lack of cohesion, if he keeps on playing key players people complain he's risking an injury on an unimportant game. He's a 'coward' if he sets out to control a game, and reckless if he doesn't (a la RBL).

He's set out a team to win the game. We're playing well, and we should be doing just that.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

This is the kind of game where if we lost, I’d fully understand the ”what can Ole do about a player missing a chance” type excuses.
For 30 mins it was pure dreamy domination. Best I’ve seen us play in years. Nothing more a manager can do there, feel like it might just be ”one of those games”.

Not sure about best in years but definitely caused a warm fuzzy nostalgic feeling watching us so comfortably dominating a strong team, away from home.

Be sickening (and typical of post-Fergie era) if we somehow still end up losing.

 

[The Urban Goose]

When Rooney was on a booking in the semi against Arsenal in 2009, everyone was asking for him to be dropped. But he played. Some players dont want to be dropped and know their own body. Maybe Bruno doesnt feel as tired as the cafe suggests?

Don't be silly, the Caf knows Bruno's condition better than Bruno himself, Ole and the rest of the coaches and medical team that work with him every day.