Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[keithsingleton]

You told me you don't want to have conversation with me. You need to stick with your word mate.

I don't need to follow your instruction, you are not me, your word are not mine. But you should stick with your own word.

It's hard to do that when you quoted me again. I'll tell you what lets agree to ignore each other from now on - and this time you try to stick to it this time yeah? No need to quote me again barely a week after.

Also because you are rather textbook in your insecurities, I anticipate you will quote me with some dick reply. I'll happily not reply to that, so that the thread can continue on topic + you can serve your insecurities and enjoy a last laugh. I'm sure it will make your day. Ready, set, go!

Can you two get a room.

 

[VP89]

I don't know what the current percentage is as I've never voted but it definitely won't reflect the average fan if you asked should we sack him today.

I agree.

 

[Niall]

Do we have the historic data of the poll stored somewhere though, or is that gone with he wind? If not it would be with start date when someone has the time to do it...
@Niall

Nice idea but there is no record of when votes were cast, just who voted what. An addon could certainly be written for this kind of feature but it couldn’t be applied to this particular poll as the data just isn’t there.

Alas as @golden_blunder said, I don’t have the time to build it right now. Maybe one for the future.

 

[Flexdegea]

I am hugely Ole out but maybe he just needs a bit more courage. Otherwise he is a PE teacher.
He set us up extremely negatively vs both Leipzig and City.

He is singlehandedly responsible for us dropping from the CL.
Istanbul game was such a must win, how did he manage to screw that up, not even get a point.
Then vs Paris he failed to take Fred out of the game which also hurt us in the Leipzig game where he decided to go for an extremely defensive and negative approach.

So in a lot of ways you do see his limitations and we suck vs top 6 teams cuz he is petrified in those games and plays the most negative way possible. If only he had a bit more courage in those games.

But then again we are doing well in the PL now.
Some games are satisfying and we look good. The next step is imposing our play on everyone else, not play with 10 DM's as soon as we play against a better team so really its all about figuring out the midfield.
If only Ole would dare to play VDB as a CM when he doesnt have Fred or McT available it would a long way. But we also still have Pogba. You dont need to play Matic FFS.

So yeah CL sucks. Its 100 % Ole's fault.

But even though I think he is a PE teacher we do look good now. If it aint broke, dont fix it I guess.
Can Ole do it consistently, I have huge doubts and CL proved it, just out of his depth. But regardless of what I think, if it aint broke dont fix it, like I said. He deserves a bit of backing now.

This place has went to gutter letting anyone troll, no doubt another club troll too just set up a account.............pathetic

 

[Greck]

I could not care less about Wednesday nights game. Leicester on Boxing Day is the one we need to win

Why not both? Don't even strictly care about the league cup but am tired of bottling every cup. 4 cups we've bottled this calendar year alone (3 winnable) and they all came in periods we were supposed to be in good form. You really want that figure to jump to 5? Losing games when the stakes are high is why people are cautious of this team and manager's ceiling. I know these guys can pad their win rate in the average fixture, time to show it in the pivotal ones.

Do no want to end the season trophyless again. It's been 3 years and we don't want to become Wenger's late Arsenal teams using top 4 to rationalise multiple trophyless seasons

 

[always_hoping]

I could not care less about Wednesday nights game. Leicester on Boxing Day is the one we need to win

I care but clearly the Leicester game is the most important game.

If United finish the league season without a trophy and top 4 in the league I would expect Ole to be kept on for at least another year.

If United finish outside the top 4 and win 1 of the domestic cups then he'll likely get the same treatment as Van Gaal got in his final season at the club.

 

[lex talionis]

It would be a very bad idea to sack Ole in the next month or two. Let him see out of the season FFS. We've been dumped out of the CL, true, but we're climbing up the league ladder and now have the pundits opining whether we might be able to sneak up on Liverpool.

But just in case the Glazers read the caf, I'd suggest to them not holding contract extension talks with Ole until the spring at the earliest. We're in a good place right now, but it could go very wrong by March/April. And if we're triumphing in the EL and the PL then a contact extension may be warranted.

 

[lysglimt]

Shame me when we actually do it end of the season or even when we are better than last year in terms of points. Until then, you have no right to judge me and my word is as good as your word or as bad as yours.

Oh - there are a lot of people who are sceptical to OGS that I have a lot of respect for. But you are trying to justify your own bizarre arguments by claiming that I have to wait until the end of the season to shame you ? The issue here is that you want him fired NOW. You don't even want to give him until the end of the season - despite finishing 3rd last year, and being closer to the top this year. If we were 10th - 10 points behind Liverpool you might have had a point. If you had said - I dont think he is the right one for us, I wouldn't even bother with you because that is ok. He might not be the one to take us all the way - I am a big OGS-fan - and I even admit that.

But you want to fire the manager who has taken us to third place with a game in hand. You don't care that almost every players are working their socks off for the manager, that almost every player loves him, not that we have picked up 19 points from the last 7 games, not that we are scoring goals for fun. You still want to fire him NOW.

I do however agree that its your right to think so - just like it's my right to think you are completely, utterly wrong - and you don't even contemplate for one second that you could be wrong despite all the evidence pointing against you at the moment.

 

[Womp]

Regardless of what I think about how sustainable our results/football is - he is getting results, so he is earning the right to be given time. I still don't think his managerial approach is progressive enough to get us competing with the high level of coaching in and around Europe these days, but he's certainly earning himself more time to prove otherwise.

 

[Foxbatt]

it depends on how he does in the next few matches or so. If we wins the against Leicester and even get a draw against Liverpool he is on the right path. I do not care much about the Everton game as he probably has to rest players for that. We have lost too many games that we were expected to win. We have not won any games that we were expected to lose. Then loss to Arsenal and Spurs at home were at least a win and a draw.
I do not know what United will turn up against Leicester. So let's take it one game at a time.

 

[Zulink]

100% keep, but find him an coworker, times 2, one to make attack plans and another for the defends

 

[Dve]

Regardless of what I think about how sustainable our results/football is - he is getting results, so he is earning the right to be given time. I still don't think his managerial approach is progressive enough to get us competing with the high level of coaching in and around Europe these days, but he's certainly earning himself more time to prove otherwise.

I am not qualified to judge if he is progressive or not, but we are still not seeing the football Ole wants to play, or actually, maybe just starting seeing it. You want to be the dominant side, but some times your are not, and then you cannot play as if you are. Like Leeds did. That would be the naive Ole getting sacked, progressive or not.

 

[FatherWolff]

it depends on how he does in the next few matches or so. If we wins the against Leicester and even get a draw against Liverpool he is on the right path. I do not care much about the Everton game as he probably has to rest players for that. We have lost too many games that we were expected to win. We have not won any games that we were expected to lose. Then loss to Arsenal and Spurs at home were at least a win and a draw.
I do not know what United will turn up against Leicester. So let's take it one game at a time.

Why do you even keep posting this? You said after we finished third that he deserved this season. Not a couple of games, but the whole season. Then we hit a rough start and you turned and wanted him out. Why do you keep posting this “one game at the time” shit. We have won a few of them “one games” already. You are just waiting for us to loose, and we will. But just stop with the scheianngance! He earned it last season. And until we fall off a cliff, the club, players and him deserve all the support they can get! Confidence through support do actually matter..

 

[GwilDor]

It would just follow results anyway. Every loss or draw would be a spike of rage votes to sack him before a slower decline after winning a few games.

That is a theory, but i’m quite sure the approval rating is down so far this season. Would be easier to spot when people switch sides with a chart. I’m thinking the CL exit pushed quite a few over to the sack side, but thats just a theory.

And the interesting thing would be to watch development over time, not just how single matches/events affect his approval rating.

 

[GwilDor]

Nice idea but there is no record of when votes were cast, just who voted what. An addon could certainly be written for this kind of feature but it couldn’t be applied to this particular poll as the data just isn’t there.

Alas as @golden_blunder said, I don’t have the time to build it right now. Maybe one for the future.

Thanks for your reply. Guess i’ll have to see if i can find the time :-)

 

[Greck]

Why do you even keep posting this? You said after we finished third that he deserved this season. Not a couple of games, but the whole season. Then we hit a rough start and you turned and wanted him out. Why do you keep posting this “one game at the time” shit. We have won a few of them “one games” already. You are just waiting for us to loose, and we will. But just stop with the scheianngance! He earned it last season. And until we fall off a cliff, the club, players and him deserve all the support they can get! Confidence through support do actually matter..

Ole will get the season now that he's close to title contention but I just want to dispute the overall point on principle, no one earns an entire season at a big club on the basis of past season's results. You can earn the benefit of the doubt for a bad run of form or a month but not earn/deserve an entire season for what happend the previous year.

Same goes for players, Martial had a great last season but no one should say he deserves to see out this season as a starter based on that. For managers Lampard finished 4th with no transfers but Chelsea should jettison him once they get over the fact he's not a Chelsea level manager. Nice feat to finish 4th but he hasn't earned squat. Same as Di Matteo after winning them the CL or Ranieri after winning Leicester the title. Big accomplishments only guarantee you the next month in management and while we're definitely more patient with our managers than other clubs that trait isn't necessarily always for the best in every scenario

 

[Foxbatt]

Why do you even keep posting this? You said after we finished third that he deserved this season. Not a couple of games, but the whole season. Then we hit a rough start and you turned and wanted him out. Why do you keep posting this “one game at the time” shit. We have won a few of them “one games” already. You are just waiting for us to loose, and we will. But just stop with the scheianngance! He earned it last season. And until we fall off a cliff, the club, players and him deserve all the support they can get! Confidence through support do actually matter..

This is what Ole himself said. One match at a time. If he gets us to the CL of course it's acceptable especially if he wins a trophy. This is not even Christmas yet and we could go on a good run and get to be challengers or we could have a mediocre season or even collapse.
At this moment in time no one knows what United will do.

 

[justsomebloke]

Here's one way of looking at progress:

2018/19 season: 66 points
2019/20 season up to 1 February (Bruno's arrival), extrapolated to a whole season: 54 points
2019/20 after 1 February (14 games following Bruno's Arrival) extrapolated to a whole season: 87 points
Current 20/21 season record extrapolated to a whole season: 76 points

We take a step backwards from the outset in 19/20, as you'd expect in a phase where the squad is restructured and several key players are shipped out. The addition of Bruno turns it around, which shows not just how good Bruno is, but also how adding a key missing ingredient allows a lot of other players to function much better too. I don't think you could expect that record to be replicated over a whole season (we did not lose a single game in those 14 rounds), but where we are now is a big improvement on the starting point.

 

[DRJosh]

I think in all honesty if Ole had secured a scrappy draw against Leipzig most of us wouldn't even be entertaining the thought of him leaving anytime soon, given our current league form.

Exiting from the CL was particularly painful as were so close...and there were questions asked of his tactical nous. The game against Leicester is supremely crucial as it will answer quite a few questions about Ole and the team. It could be a brutal reality check or a pleasant affirmation of our recent positive performances.

 

[Loon]

If he picks up another diamond in Jan, who the hell know where these crazy Reds will go next?

 

[Greck]

I think in all honesty if Ole had secured a scrappy draw against Leipzig most of us wouldn't even be entertaining the thought of him leaving anytime soon, given our current league form.

Exiting from the CL was particularly painful as were so close...and there were questions asked of his tactical nous. The game against Leicester is supremely crucial as it will answer quite a few questions about Ole and the team. It could be a brutal reality check or a pleasant affirmation of our recent positive performances.

Honestly speaking the Leicester game shouldn't mean much in the grand scheme. It's one of 20 plus more games to be played. We can make up for lost points if we lose or win and go on to drop points. Think we win but it's not like we expect to go unbeaten the rest of the campaign. Main thing is they don't go on another awful run that has us chasing a top 4 position again. Don't trust the team collectively, this has been when they've gone on to bottle. That CL campaign was ridiculous, when you tip them to push on they stutter. They've tended not to play good whenever they were feeling good

 

[DRJosh]

Honestly speaking the Leicester game shouldn't mean much in the grand scheme. It's one of 20 plus more games to be played. We can make up for lost points if we lose or win and go on to drop points. Think we win but it's not like we expect to go unbeaten the rest of the campaign. Main thing is they don't go on another awful run that has us chasing a top 4 position again. Don't trust the team collectively, this has been when they've gone on to bottle. That CL campaign was ridiculous, when you tip them to push on they stutter. They've tended not to play good whenever they were feeling good

That's a good point but the Leicester games comes at a crucial time for us when we are on an upward trajectory performance wise. A win against Leicester may define our momentum going forward - beating Leeds, moving up to 3rd and subsequently being touted as title challengers seems premature and almost cringeworthy. A Leicester win might just add a bit more purchase to our belief of achieving something more than what is expected (not necessarily the title). But again like you said, the team hasn't been reliable as a collective when things are in their favour.

 

[Womp]

I am not qualified to judge if he is progressive or not, but we are still not seeing the football Ole wants to play, or actually, maybe just starting seeing it. You want to be the dominant side, but some times your are not, and then you cannot play as if you are. Like Leeds did. That would be the naive Ole getting sacked, progressive or not.

Which is true - I just don't think he's good enough a coach to be able to coach a style that would be dominant enough to match a Klopp or a motivated Pep side etc.That being said, as long as he keeps winning, no complaints from me. Whether or not he can maintain the wins due to our style and coaching, we'll see

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Here's one way of looking at progress:

2018/19 season: 66 points
2019/20 season up to 1 February (Bruno's arrival), extrapolated to a whole season: 54 points
2019/20 after 1 February (14 games following Bruno's Arrival) extrapolated to a whole season: 87 points
Current 20/21 season record extrapolated to a whole season: 76 points

We take a step backwards from the outset in 19/20, as you'd expect in a phase where the squad is restructured and several key players are shipped out. The addition of Bruno turns it around, which shows not just how good Bruno is, but also how adding a key missing ingredient allows a lot of other players to function much better too. I don't think you could expect that record to be replicated over a whole season (we did not lose a single game in those 14 rounds), but where we are now is a big improvement on the starting point.

Yeah, that is a very fair and good points, on the argument of points mainly backed by some key contexts.

It also shows how we struck gold, which also meant it's totally reliant on Bruno. Basically we got lucky. We also postponed that deal and overspent to bring him in. Many people argued we used "future funds" for summer 2020 for Bruno which is why we postponed, but then we also spent big again that summer.What I like to say is how over reliance we are on Bruno to bring this squad and its football to the next good enough level.

It's like one injury to Bruno and we're back to being fecked. In what way is that sustainable? I mean if we use City and Pool as examples, even with KDB or Aguero out (seasons ago, they're still fine, this season they're shit) or how even when Allison or VVD out, Pool is still okay manageable and then even when Salah is out, same thing, they're still attacking well and getting the points.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

If he picks up another diamond in Jan, who the hell know where these crazy Reds will go next?

Indeed!

"Crazy Reds" is an appropriate description and nickname our squad is madly entertaining but crazily high risks.

 

[The Boy]

This has just gone full circle. I'm genuinely amazed at your reply.

Once more, for the last time: Jose and Ole are, in my opinion, defence first coaches. I cannot stress enough that this is not a criticism but an observation. Conte is a good example to bring in because, as you said, he is also a defensive coach (who you wrongly thought was more similar to Jose and I appreciate you accepting you were wrong on that point). Therefore the stats I presented were from 3 defensive coaches with Mou, as I have now said about 5 times, being the most defensive of the three and Ole/Conte being actually remarkably similar in how they like their teams to play, more direct, playing direct passes between the lines.

On your second point, how on earth is that your take on what I have said. My point was our style is perfect for Leeds (pretty sure that result is evidence enough for that) and I pointed out the stats which are irrefutable (literally the stats are the stats) and yet you are trying to argue that saying that must be biased and agenda driven. Did you not watch the game? We setup perfectly and just demolished them. Please also use this example as a good indicator of my point in the first paragraph because Bielsa IS an attacking coach, probably the most attacking PL coach out there, and then use common sense to look at the stats you have posted ((Klopp 48%, Pep 47%, Lampard 45% and then Ole 41% which pretty accurately reflects which of those managers are more attacking than the others)).

OK, finally we are getting somewhere a bit more reasonable with the last point. I'm happy you are ditching Fellaini (as I said 2 or 3 posts ago) and I'm assuming you are also ditching Sanchez (which was a terrible argument in the first place) which leaves us with Herrera and Lukaku. Herrera I already addressed & I did the same with Lukaku. I will point out this also proves you were 100% wrong with the below:



Because actually he inherited the exact same squad as Mou (bar Fellaini who you above admit was 'past it' & Herrera) but then he chose to change it. As through this whole, somewhat frustrating exchange, this has taken longer to get to and your inflammatory style of posting (which I now see is not just reserved for me but all posters) has made it a lot less efficient than it could have been.

It's an interesting discussion and I've seen Ole compared to Jose a few times by different journalists.

I think there are definitely examples of where you can see Ole has set up defensively, with the plan of nicking a goal on the break, the derby was the most recent example of this. But I think it's a bit too simplistic to describe him as a defensive first coach.

Watching you play, he reminds me of Potter in the way you are often set up to deal with the team in front of you, it doesn't always work, but I think he's a reactive coach who switches quite a lot depending on who he is playing. This is exactly how Potter sets Brighton up and it's also why some people find it difficult to nail down Ole's style.

Unlike Klopp or Bielsa, Ole doesn't have a particular style, but he obviously has a good understanding of the game, because more and more when most of the squad are fit and he has options at his disposal, he often gets it tactically correct, it's just that those tactics tend to chop and change.

Just look at the different styles from PSG away, City at home and Leeds for instance - completey different game plans each time.

 

[LUC1f3R]

I believe the game against Leicester is important. It will say a lot about our performance. Even if we lose, the game will let us know a lot about our team.
It can tell about Ole's improvements in tactics (whether he learnt from RB game), player improvements etc. I want to know which United shows up (will be a welcome change if we start better and not get caught out in first 15 min).
Not a fan of Ole, but if we show improvements in the match, I will agree Ole is making progress with squad and will support him till season ends (last few games showed progress, just hoping it will continue)
Glory glory Man Utd

 

[Polar]

Why shouldn't we expect similar performances? What Ole did was play with risk in the game with the back line pushed up and the fullbacks marauding forward and even the midfielders bursting into the opposition box. Against the so called lesser teams we should adopt the same high risk approach IMO.

The only manager I ever had trust in was Fergie. And he earned that trust over many years. What I have with Solskjaer is hope.

We can of course expect similar performances in the future, but right now I don’t think any team are able to reproduce such achievements weekly, and 6-2 wins will never be “everyday food”

I agree we should adopt the same high risk approach more often agains “inferior” opponents. Even thought our defence may not be ready for it, I think it’s important for the development of this team.

At the same time we have to accept that high risk approaches sometimes may hit back on us, and we can’t expect that all “inferior” opponents have the naive approach of Leeds. That’s why I’m more focused on development and not only concerned about results these days.That’s also why I’m patient with Ole and wants him to stay at least until may. I do believe in his project, but I’m not 100% sure he will succeed.

 

[Adnan]

We can of course expect similar performances in the future, but right now I don’t think any team are able to reproduce such achievements weekly, and 6-2 wins will never be “everyday food”

I agree we should adopt the same high risk approach more often agains “inferior” opponents. Even thought our defence may not be ready for it, I think it’s important for the development of this team.

At the same time we have to accept that high risk approaches sometimes may hit back on us, and we can’t expect that all “inferior” opponents have the naive approach of Leeds. That’s why I’m more focused on development and not only concerned about results these days.That’s also why I’m patient with Ole and wants him to stay at least until may. I do believe in his project, but I’m not 100% sure he will succeed. I still think it’s more likely than unlikely

I'm with you here..

 

[CoolDuckie]

Unbelievable first post and if I could give you a +1 I would. I'm a stats man too but not on football but Greyhounds. However, to make a compassion with Fergie's stats at this stage is boarding on being locked up in a lunatic asylum.

Once again great first post.

Thank you- much appreciated! I have been following Redcafe for a long time, but never registered. This time I thought I could contribute.

CD

 

[theklr]

It's an interesting discussion and I've seen Ole compared to Jose a few times by different journalists.

I think there are definitely examples of where you can see Ole has set up defensively, with the plan of nicking a goal on the break, the derby was the most recent example of this. But I think it's a bit too simplistic to describe him as a defensive first coach.

Watching you play, he reminds me of Potter in the way you are often set up to deal with the team in front of you, it doesn't always work, but I think he's a reactive coach who switches quite a lot depending on who he is playing. This is exactly how Potter sets Brighton up and it's also why some people find it difficult to nail down Ole's style.

Unlike Klopp or Bielsa, Ole doesn't have a particular style, but he obviously has a good understanding of the game, because more and more when most of the squad are fit and he has options at his disposal, he often gets it tactically correct, it's just that those tactics tend to chop and change.

Just look at the different styles from PSG away, City at home and Leeds for instance - completey different game plans each time.

There are plenty of better coaches than Potter that have this "no-style" as well, no need to sell him short.

 

[Bobcat]

What are you waffling about? My argument isn't "We are Manchester United" so we should be winning every thing under the sun. My argument is that our standards must *at the very least* be bigger than lapping up 7 unbeaten games as some sort of revolutionary success. Maybe you've forgotten we've lifted a European trophy, we've finished 2nd with 81 points, we've won the FA Cup, all of which Ole has demonstrably failed at when given a full backing with players the other managers were sacked for demanding, even after a 3 month mid season break. I smell your desperation to keep supressing those facts along with the other failures of Ole to make 7 unbeaten games and some lucky 3rd finish feel as a resounding success.

Liverpool are where they are now because they sacked a manager who gave a title challenge in 13-14.. who also had a 10 game winning run and a 13 game unbeaten run in the next season. For all the 30 years in wilderness, they were never 33 points behind us like we were last season which many here are happy to celebrate as a trophy. Don't tell me forgetting our standards is an option. It isn't. If that is the way we want to "progress" then a lot more than 30 years in wilderness beckons us.

Who has called it a revolutionary success? People are simply pointing out that our form, both short term and long term, is quite good, to counter the endless stream of moans and groans.

That bolded part is just mental. You take three seasons of achievements, under two different manager to use as a yard stick for his first full season? Thats fecking stupid, and you know it. And Jose (so far) has spent about 150 million net more than Ole, so its not like the former was not backed. He got plenty of players and he was sacked because he acted like a petulant child, not because he demanded Maguire

Who's desperate? You're not even engaging with the premise of the argument, you're just banging on the same drum of "81 points" which proves nothing and is it really relevant? We were not really that impressive that season and that was the year DDG was like a human wall. Jose is a short term manager. He comes in, spends a lot then ideally wins a trophy or two. Jose goes for instant success and when that fails there is really no plan B.

Liverpool are where they are because they landed the best manager in the world after years and years of excellent recruitment. This idea that if you sack a manager then things will automatically improve is just utterly bewildering. There is a lot of middle ground between what we are experiencing and a 30 year trophy drought. We are improving, both in terms of results and performances. Yet people want to throw that away for some fantasy where another manager has us playing so much better

People act like the job Ole is doing is an easy one, when it probably one of the toughest jobs in football. We recently had two highly renowned managers fail at that job, so just blindly claiming that bringing in x,y or z manager will sort everything out is naive at best

 

[Polar]

Who has called it a revolutionary success? People are simply pointing out that our form, both short term and long term, is quite good, to counter the endless stream of moans and groans.

That bolded part is just mental. You take three seasons of achievements, under two different manager to use as a yard stick for his first full season? Thats fecking stupid, and you know it. And Jose (so far) has spent about 150 million net more than Ole, so its not like the former was not backed. He got plenty of players and he was sacked because he acted like a petulant child, not because he demanded Maguire

Who's desperate? You're not even engaging with the premise of the argument, you're just banging on the same drum of "81 points" which proves nothing and is it really relevant? We were not really that impressive that season and that was the year DDG was like a human wall. Jose is a short term manager. He comes in, spends a lot then ideally wins a trophy or two. Jose goes for instant success and when that fails there is really no plan B.

Liverpool are where they are because they landed the best manager in the world after years and years of excellent recruitment. This idea that if you sack a manager then things will automatically improve is just utterly bewildering. There is a lot of middle ground between what we are experiencing and a 30 year trophy drought. We are improving, both in terms of results and performances. Yet people want to throw that away for some fantasy where another manager has us playing so much better

People act like the job Ole is doing is an easy one, when it probably one of the toughest jobs in football. We recently had two highly renowned managers fail at that job, so just blindly claiming that bringing in x,y or z manager will sort everything out is naive at best

Spot on. Couldn’t have said it better myself. Wish I was able to express my thoughts better in English

Feel a little bit stupid using one of my five opportunities only for this compliment, but your post reflects the majority of the fans I discuss with regularly. So I just wanted to add my support.

Thanks

 

[tomaldinho1]

I expected you to stay into argument/topic not moaning about me. I asked simple yes or no question and you couldn't answer it.

Ok, here goes.

Do I think that, with the newly added timeframe, Ole inherited less original players (ignoring the quality of those players) then Conte inherited at Chelsea? Yes. That is factual albeit

Do you accept you were wrong with regards to the original timeline (that took you about 8 post to add in) of Ole inheriting them ?
Do you accept I was correct that Conte and Ole are more similar stylistically to Conte and Jose?

It's an interesting discussion and I've seen Ole compared to Jose a few times by different journalists.

I think there are definitely examples of where you can see Ole has set up defensively, with the plan of nicking a goal on the break, the derby was the most recent example of this. But I think it's a bit too simplistic to describe him as a defensive first coach.

Watching you play, he reminds me of Potter in the way you are often set up to deal with the team in front of you, it doesn't always work, but I think he's a reactive coach who switches quite a lot depending on who he is playing. This is exactly how Potter sets Brighton up and it's also why some people find it difficult to nail down Ole's style.

Unlike Klopp or Bielsa, Ole doesn't have a particular style, but he obviously has a good understanding of the game, because more and more when most of the squad are fit and he has options at his disposal, he often gets it tactically correct, it's just that those tactics tend to chop and change.

Just look at the different styles from PSG away, City at home and Leeds for instance - completey different game plans each time.

This is what I was trying to explain to the other poster but, for some reason, the idea of Ole being in any way pragmatic seemed to deeply offend him. I see him as defense first for the reasons you say, we are a reactive team and that's no bad thing when we are definitely at our best in transition and on the counter but rarely will we set out to dominate possession in attacking areas and impose ourselves on another team, unless it's one of the bottom teams in the league where the quality difference is so high.

I remember a quote from Ben Davies (I think) in the Spurs doc and he said the biggest difference with Jose coming in compared to Poch was there was so much more detail on opposition, how to stop certain players and how to setup up game to game. Ole is not that extreme but his setup is actually very similar when you look at players positions when out of possession.

It's all about finding a balance in the PL, Guardiola has definitely become less of a purist, Klopp went from winning nothing to winning everything after signing a specialist DM & GK, Chelsea won the league with Conte, Leicester with Ranieri, it's clear you can't go full Keegan and expect to win trophies.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Ok, here goes.

Do I think that, with the newly added timeframe, Ole inherited less original players (ignoring the quality of those players) then Conte inherited at Chelsea? Yes. That is factual albeit

Do you accept you were wrong with regards to the original timeline (that took you about 8 post to add in) of Ole inheriting them ?
Do you accept I was correct that Conte and Ole are more similar stylistically to Conte and Jose?


This is what I was trying to explain to the other poster but, for some reason, the idea of Ole being in any way pragmatic seemed to deeply offend him. I see him as defense first for the reasons you say, we are a reactive team and that's no bad thing when we are definitely at our best in transition and on the counter but rarely will we set out to dominate possession in attacking areas and impose ourselves on another team, unless it's one of the bottom teams in the league where the quality difference is so high.

I remember a quote from Ben Davies (I think) in the Spurs doc and he said the biggest difference with Jose coming in compared to Poch was there was so much more detail on opposition, how to stop certain players and how to setup up game to game. Ole is not that extreme but his setup is actually very similar when you look at players positions when out of possession.

It's all about finding a balance in the PL, Guardiola has definitely become less of a purist, Klopp went from winning nothing to winning everything after signing a specialist DM & GK, Chelsea won the league with Conte, Leicester with Ranieri, it's clear you can't go full Keegan and expect to win trophies.

Spot on assessment.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

We finished 3rd. That's all that matters. The targets for any season are based on position and not points exactly because it takes into account the level of competition, and other variables (like COVID break and so on)

So why do people talking about the 2020 table? Surely thats irrelevant because that isn't a target?

 

[Nou_Camp99]

I love reading the comments from the Ole out brigade right now. You can tell they are seething that we are 3rd in table with a game in hand to go 2nd.

You're not real supporters. You're all more bothered about being proven right than supporting the team and manager. 6 wins and a draw in our last 7 PL games proves Ole has got something about him but you still won't give him credit. Embarrassed to support same club as some of you lot.

Ole has done a really good so far in tough circumstances. If you were expecting to go from zero to 100 in 2 years then more fool you. Trust the process.

 

[anant]

So why do people talking about the 2020 table? Surely thats irrelevant because that isn't a target?

Because it is tracking against the target. 2020 not per se, but it highlights the form of the team over a sustained period of time. If I bring up the argument that we're 3rd (potentially 2nd), 5 points behind top with a game in hand, you'd bring up the argument that it has been just 13 games. That's why to make the sample size bigger, we're bringing up this table.

Now before you ask then why only since Feb, I'll provide you the answer to that as well. People say we were the 3rd best side in the league at the start of 2019/20. But remove Pogba from that side, tell everyone that you can play only one of Martial or Rashford, and Fred and McT would be unavailable for a month, would you stiill say we were the 3rd best side? The reason why we bring in the Feb argument is because it was with those signings that we had a creative outlet (Pog is creative, but he wasn't available) and it was then when we actually became the 3rd best starting XI in terms of available players.

 

[bond19821982]

Oh - there are a lot of people who are sceptical to OGS that I have a lot of respect for. But you are trying to justify your own bizarre arguments by claiming that I have to wait until the end of the season to shame you ? The issue here is that you want him fired NOW. You don't even want to give him until the end of the season - despite finishing 3rd last year, and being closer to the top this year. If we were 10th - 10 points behind Liverpool you might have had a point. If you had said - I dont think he is the right one for us, I wouldn't even bother with you because that is ok. He might not be the one to take us all the way - I am a big OGS-fan - and I even admit that.

But you want to fire the manager who has taken us to third place with a game in hand. You don't care that almost every players are working their socks off for the manager, that almost every player loves him, not that we have picked up 19 points from the last 7 games, not that we are scoring goals for fun. You still want to fire him NOW.

I do however agree that its your right to think so - just like it's my right to think you are completely, utterly wrong - and you don't even contemplate for one second that you could be wrong despite all the evidence pointing against you at the moment.

On the contrary, I have no time for people who bloat after every 3-5 matches and come here and say "I told you" so. I don't care where we are now because we are only 13 matches into the season. We aren't even at the middle of the season and yet, we have people stating he is the man to take us forward. While they may be finally right (yes, finally after 2 years) we still haven't reach to a point where we can say that.

Now, my analysis of his criticism is purely based on facts and points on-board. Unlike you, I'm not pulling things out of thin air (like saying we are going to win the title or we are going to finish third). My analysis is based on his performance from last 2 years.

So yes, shame me when you get your facts right, when you see the points on-board, when you see the so called improvement on the ground. Until then, you can keep bloating around things that hasn't happened yet but spare me from that.

 

[RedSky]

So why do people talking about the 2020 table? Surely thats irrelevant because that isn't a target?

It gives you a sense of perspective on the long term form of the club. It doesn't matter where you start looking, be that the entire year, post lockdown or this season we've been in very good form. But taking the full years worth of form is a very good indictator to see if the clubs simply having a purple patch of form or if it's a longer term process. This is why some of us have been positive throughout, it's pretty clear to see that since Bruno joined we've turned the corner and gone up a level. Personally, I still think we need to repeat that process and step up another level to really properly contend with Liverpool, but we're drawing closer to them and that's all you can ask for really.