Would Ronaldo have been so adored if he played football in this current era

[jm99]

Why not include those tournaments? Pele scored 6 goals in the World Cup at age 17 and twice in the final. Mbappe scored four goals at age 18 and once in the final. R9 wss the best player in the WC at age 21. CR7 was 21, not 20 in 2006 and he did sweet FA. You're making excuses for his repeated failure on the biggest stage again.

Re Messi, he was already the best player at a World Cup in 2014 so he was never the failure on the biggest stage that CR7 has been. But what he was better at in 2022 than he had been previously is leadership .

Because Ronaldo matured later obviously. But you haven't answered the question, was 35 year old Messi a better player than Messi in 2010 who very much did fail at that world cup

 

[Andrade]

Because Ronaldo matured later obviously. But you haven't answered the question, was 35 year old Messi a better player than Messi in 2010 who very much did fail at that world cup

I have answered it. He wasn't a better player but he was a better leader and better able to handle the pressure of carrying the hopes of a nation. That's what makes the World Cup the true test, a test that CR7 failed. R9 on the other hand has the epic redemption story on the biggest stage. From best player but loser to top scorer and winner two years after his career almost ended prematurely.

 

[jm99]

I have answered it. He wasn't a better player but he was a better leader and better able to handle the pressure of carrying the hopes of a nation. That's what makes the World Cup the true test, a test that CR7 failed. R9 on the other hand has the epic redemption story on the biggest stage. From best player but loser to top scorer and winner two years after his career almost ended prematurely.

Was 2018 modric a better footballer than 2010 Messi when many agreed Messi was at his peak (2009-2012)? 2014 James Rodriguez also a better player than 2010 messi? That's why judging off 7 games every 4 years is not the best judge of a players ability. You want to argue prestige or importance that's one thing, but using it to judge a player's ability is nonsense

 

[Joel Miller]

Was 2018 modric a better footballer than 2010 Messi when many agreed Messi was at his peak (2009-2012)? 2014 James Rodriguez also a better player than 2010 messi? That's why judging off 7 games every 4 years is not the best judge of a players ability. You want to argue prestige or importance that's one thing, but using it to judge a player's ability is nonsense

I agree it’s nonsense to define someone’s entire career that way. But like it or not it is the best test of how a player handles the biggest pressure on the biggest stage. The fact it only comes around once every 4 years means there’s a serious increase in pressure with that tournament, that pressure is obviously even greater when you’re from a country like Argentina where ever since you were 18 you’ve been burdened with the “next Maradona” tag and told you have to win the World Cup.

So it’s not the be all and end all, but for most fans you will have to have made some sort of significant mark at WC’s to sit at the pantheon with the greatest.

 

[jm99]

I agree it’s nonsense to define someone’s entire career that way. But like it or not it is the best test of how a player handles the biggest pressure on the biggest stage. The fact it only comes around once every 4 years means there’s a serious increase in pressure with that tournament, that pressure is obviously even greater when you’re from a country like Argentina where ever since you were 18 you’ve been burdened with the “next Maradona” tag and told you have to win the World Cup.

So it’s not the be all and end all, but for most fans you will have to have made some sort of significant mark at WC’s to sit at the pantheon with the greatest.

It's still totally silly, particularly looking at Argentina needing two penalty shootout victories at this world cup. While Messi's penalty in the final was fine, his three teammates were entirely saveable by a better keeper than lloris. So if he still scores his and the other 3 are saved and France win, suddenly Messi is a less good player? What about mbappe, does he suddenly sit higher than Messi and Ronaldo in the GOAT rankings with two world cup wins and 4 final goals before he turns 25?

 

[GazTheLegend]

@Sir Erik ten Hag

This thread is going to go down as well as I did in the Shevchenko thread. The thing is, I loved Shevchenko and Ronaldo at the time they played and there's a case that for 1-2 years they were the best players in the world but I agree that over the course of their careers they didn't achieve as much as they probably should.
I think in Ronaldo's case it's the fact that his raw talent was unbelievable to watch. He destroyed teams effortlessly. But his general fitness was a bit crap even considering injuries. Messi at his prime was better of course, Cristiano over the course of his career is by far the more impressive Ronaldo. But I think if Ronaldo played today he would be appreciated even MORE than back then, there aren't many mercurial strikers around now.

 

[fps]

He was also outscored by Oliver bierhoff in serie A

A very good CF with a very good header on him.

 

[tenpoless]

What are you talking about, someone literally kissed the ground he stood on. The pitch invader.

 

[Zehner]

Cristiano scored 33 in 35 in his first Madrid season so basically identical.

The point is how much the output dropped. Barcelona (who won the league the season after Ronaldo left btw) scored 78 goals in the 97/98 season. Real Madrid scored 63. That doesn't really line up with your whole super team thing. Same with Barca without Messi

I'd say the opposite in terms of development, with thr wealth of information freely available online, analytics that are done, even lower teams that can't afford the same things as the top clubs are at less of a disadvantage.

I'm not saying he wasn't a world class striker but he'd have been a distant 3rd best in the world had he played in the mid 2010s

Jesus, how can anybody distract so much. It is mathematically proven that top teams score more goals now than they did in the 90s. Accept it and move on.

And no, in my opinion prime Ronaldo would have given Messi a run for his money if you just dropped him into the 2010s. You have clearly no clue how extraordinary he was. I'd link you a video but I have the feeling you don't trust yours eyes anyway and prefer to go by the most superficial stats you can find

 

[jm99]

Jesus, how can anybody distract so much. It is mathematically proven that top teams score more goals now than they did in the 90s. Accept it and move on.

And no, in my opinion prime Ronaldo would have given Messi a run for his money if you just dropped him into the 2010s. You have clearly no clue how extraordinary he was. I'd link you a video but I have the feeling you don't trust yours eyes anyway and prefer to go by the most superficial stats you can find

Barca and Madrid only consistently outscored serie a teams of the 90s while Messi and Ronaldo were there. Since they left Madrid have averaged 71 league goals and Barca 69, while perhaps a couple of goals higher than those sides but not massively

 

[jm99]

A very good CF with a very good header on him.

Right sure, but not on the level of Cristiano or Messi who at their peak only Luis suarez, one of the best strikers ever outscored them.

I'm not suggesting r9 wouldn't be a world class striker in the 2010s, but Messi and Ronaldo are the two best ever and there would be quite a gap

 

[Zehner]

Barca and Madrid only consistently outscored serie a teams of the 90s while Messi and Ronaldo were there. Since they left Madrid have averaged 71 league goals and Barca 69, while perhaps a couple of goals higher than those sides but not massively

Bullshit

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Bullshit

Every thread I’m interested in these days seems to be jm99 arguing (in my opinion usually wrongly) some odd point and posting 30 times in a row clogging several pages with cherrypicked facts.

Fact is Lewandowski, Haaland, Benzema and others have scored ridiculous numbers in this era. Higuain and Immobile scored nearly 40 in Serie A, Immobile in the 30s but they’re still nowhere the players of Ronaldo, Van Basten, Shevchenko and others. It’s easier to score goals from the 2010s onwards compared to the 1990s and early 2000s, but 3-4 pages later he’s still arguing the same thing.

 

[Zehner]

Every thread I’m interested in these days seems to be jm99 arguing (in my opinion usually wrongly) some odd point and posting 30 times in a row clogging several pages with cherrypicked facts.

Fact is Lewandowski, Haaland, Benzema and others have scored ridiculous numbers in this era. Higuain and Immobile scored nearly 40 in Serie A, Immobile in the 30s but they’re still nowhere the players of Ronaldo, Van Basten, Shevchenko and others. It’s easier to score goals from the 2010s onwards compared to the 1990s and early 2000s, but 3-4 pages later he’s still arguing the same thing.

And it is just evidently wrong. Really incredible. Like a flat earther

 

[jm99]

Bullshit

Well No it isn't since Ronaldo left, real Madrid's league tallies have been

63
70
67
80
75

Over5 seasons that's an average of 71 and rhe highest scorers in 97-98 serie a had 67

Aince Messi left Barca have scored

68
70

An average of 69.

So unless you want to dispute basic maths, the these tallies have not been hugely out of proportion with the serie a Ronaldo played in

 

[Devil You Know]

Cristiano Ronaldo would have been more adored if Messi wasn't around. And Messi would have been more adored if Cristiano Ronaldo wasn't around.

The problem is that social media has turned us into polarised idiots.

If Brazilian Ronaldo was playing in the current era, he'd be downplayed by two thirds of the footballing watching population in a way that never happened during his day. At best, it'd a be a 3 way online fight that Brazilian Ronaldo would lose due to his lack of availability and longevity.

 

[Zehner]

Cristiano scored 33 in 35 in his first Madrid season so basically identical.

The point is how much the output dropped. Barcelona (who won the league the season after Ronaldo left btw) scored 78 goals in the 97/98 season. Real Madrid scored 63. That doesn't really line up with your whole super team thing. Same with Barca without Messi

I'd say the opposite in terms of development, with thr wealth of information freely available online, analytics that are done, even lower teams that can't afford the same things as the top clubs are at less of a disadvantage.

I'm not saying he wasn't a world class striker but he'd have been a distant 3rd best in the world had he played in the mid 2010s

Barca scored 72 the season before R9 joined them then went up to 102 with him and dropped again to 78 after he left. I can do these armchair statistics, too, you know.

Well No it isn't since Ronaldo left, real Madrid's league tallies have been

63
70
67
80
75

Over5 seasons that's an average of 71 and rhe highest scorers in 97-98 serie a had 67

Aince Messi left Barca have scored

68
70

An average of 69.

So unless you want to dispute basic maths, the these tallies have not been hugely out of proportion with the serie a Ronaldo played in

Why don't you calculate the average goals of the top three teams over the period of time they played in their respective leagues? If you want, even the three years or so after they left? I guess that points too clear of a picture.

 

[jm99]

Every thread I’m interested in these days seems to be jm99 arguing (in my opinion usually wrongly) some odd point and posting 30 times in a row clogging several pages with cherrypicked facts.

Fact is Lewandowski, Haaland, Benzema and others have scored ridiculous numbers in this era. Higuain and Immobile scored nearly 40 in Serie A, Immobile in the 30s but they’re still nowhere the players of Ronaldo, Van Basten, Shevchenko and others. It’s easier to score goals from the 2010s onwards compared to the 1990s and early 2000s, but 3-4 pages later he’s still arguing the same thing.

There's nothing cherrypicked about it from 08-21 Barca averaged over 100 league goals a seaosn, since Messi left its 69

Over 09-18 Madrid averaged over 100 league goals a season, since Ronaldo left the average is 71.

Attributing their goal tallies to these sides is evidently not the case,

OK I guess you could argue not including before 08 for Messi is slightly cherry picked but did feel it wouldn't be accurate to include seasons where he was injured half the time and 19 years old

 

[Andrade]

Was 2018 modric a better footballer than 2010 Messi when many agreed Messi was at his peak (2009-2012)? 2014 James Rodriguez also a better player than 2010 messi? That's why judging off 7 games every 4 years is not the best judge of a players ability. You want to argue prestige or importance that's one thing, but using it to judge a player's ability is nonsense

Another poor point. Yes a player can have one good world cup by accident. But all the GOATS have at least 2 where they made a significant impact. Messi has 2014 and 2022. Pele has 1958 and 1970. Maradona has 1986 and 1990. R9 has 1998 and 2002. Beckenbauer has 66 and 74 (and played pretty well in 70 too). The only exceptions to this rule are people like Cruyff, who played in only one World Cup, and people like DiStefano, who didn't play in any.

If you play in 5 World Cups there are no excuses for failing to make your mark. And that's what CR7 did. He failed repeatedly on the biggest stage. He failed the true test, when the whole world was watching. Stop hiding behind James Rodriguez.

 

[jm99]

Barca scored 72 the season before R9 joined them then went up to 102 with him and dropped again to 78 after he left. I can do these armchair statistics, too, you know.

Why don't you calculate the average goals of the top three teams over the period of time they played in their respective leagues? If you want, even the three years or so after they left? I guess that points too clear of a picture.

Right, and most people would say having a world class striker helped add a lot of goals rather than saying his team was the leading factor

Well obviously calculating the goals of the top 3 teams while they were there wouldn't work becusse my whole argument is that Messi and Ronaldo added loads to their team. And the goal tally would be nowhere near that without them. And doing it after Ronaldo left wouldnt be accurate becusse Messi was still at barca increasing their tally.

The two seasons s after Ronaldo left Barca they managed 78 and 87 goals for an average of 83.5

The two seasons after Messi left Barca the average scored is 69 for them.

Maybe that paints some kind off picture

 

[jm99]

Another poor point. Yes a player can have one good world cup by accident. But all the GOATS have at least 2 where they made a significant impact. Messi has 2014 and 2022. Pele has 1958 and 1970. Maradona has 1986 and 1990. R9 has 1998 and 2002. Beckenbauer has 66 and 74 (and played pretty well in 70 too). The only exceptions to this rule are people like Cruyff, who played in only one World Cup, and people like DiStefano, who didn't play in any.

If you play in 5 World Cups there are no excuses for failing to make your mark. And that's what CR7 did. He failed repeatedly on the biggest stage. He failed the true test, when the whole world was watching. Stop hiding behind James Rodriguez.

None of those players you listed played for Portugal, who during ronaldo's peak were awful.

He also scored 10 goals in 5 games agaisnt bayern Munich, atletico and juventus in the run to a champions league final when the world wad watching. Slightly better opposition than Australia, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Poland, Croatia, Netherlands and France.

 

[Krakenzero]

Was 2018 modric a better footballer than 2010 Messi when many agreed Messi was at his peak (2009-2012)? 2014 James Rodriguez also a better player than 2010 messi? That's why judging off 7 games every 4 years is not the best judge of a players ability. You want to argue prestige or importance that's one thing, but using it to judge a player's ability is nonsense

We're using games on the Big stage to value a player. You're using games against Getafe (with due respect to all Getafe fans that come to read and post here).

Same thing with your undervaluing of players like Bierhoff, who (for instance) singlehandedly give Germany their only trophy between WCs 1990 and 2014. And using it as an argument against Ronaldo, who had the best stats of a debutant in Serie A that year and won tons of individual achievements that year (plus of course Copa América 97 title and WC 98 final). Unfortunately, he wasn't doing it in a 2010s super team to boost his stats, but in a tough, competitive league with some of the best defenders in history. So I think, now that you have accepted that stats need to be backed with some context, that maybe you're failing to consider context here (and of course we talk about stat padding in super teams vs. performing in the biggest events).

 

[Zehner]

Right, and most people would say having a world class striker helped add a lot of goals rather than saying his team was the leading factor

Well obviously calculating the goals of the top 3 teams while they were there wouldn't work becusse my whole argument is that Messi and Ronaldo added loads to their team. And the goal tally would be nowhere near that without them. And doing it after Ronaldo left wouldnt be accurate becusse Messi was still at barca increasing their tally.

The two seasons s after Ronaldo left Barca they managed 78 and 87 goals for an average of 83.5

The two seasons after Messi left Barca the average scored is 69 for them.

Maybe that paints some kind off picture

No, the argument is that it is easier to score goals for a top team in the 2010s then in the the 90s. That Messi and both Ronaldos added loads to their teams goes without saying (and we even agreed on this earlier). For this argument, it is not even important whether or not the goal outputs of Barca and Madrid dropped after they left becuase they were parts of those top teams and even more importantly you can observe the inflation of goals in every league, whether they played there or not.

Guess what, it is not even an argument it is a fact. It is mathematically proven that top teams score more than in the 90s. You can also approach this from the opposite direction: Why did Cristiano and Messi came not even remotely close to reproducing their goal records for Portugal and Argentina? Because their teams there weren't as good and sophisticated as their club teams. And there is no question that the quality of teams they played in relative to the competition is tiers above the quality of teams R9 played in relative to their competition.

This is very basic stuff. Can't believe you force me to write this down.

 

[jm99]

We're using games on the Big stage to value a player. You're using games against Getafe (with due respect to all Getafe fans that come to read and post here).

Same thing with your undervaluing of players like Bierhoff, who (for instance) singlehandedly give Germany their only trophy between WCs 1990 and 2014. And using it as an argument against Ronaldo, who had the best stats of a debutant in Serie A that year and won tons of individual achievements that year (plus of course Copa América 97 title and WC 98 final). Unfortunately, he wasn't doing it in a 2010s super team to boost his stats, but in a tough, competitive league with some of the best defenders in history. So I think, now that you have accepted that stats need to be backed with some context, that maybe you're failing to consider context here (and of course we talk about stat padding in super teams vs. performing in the biggest events).

Ronaldo is the best big game player in history. 41 goals from the quarter finals onwards in the champions league, Messi is next with 19.

Again the 2010s super team ronadlo played for averaged 71 goals in the 5 seasons since he left

Barca in the 5 seao s after Ronaldo left averaged 76. So who was stat padding?

 

[jm99]

No, the argument is that it is easier to score goals for a top team in the 2010s then in the the 90s. That Messi and both Ronaldos added loads to their teams goes without saying (and we even agreed on this earlier). For this argument, it is not even important whether or not the goal outputs of Barca and Madrid dropped after they left becuase they were parts of those top teams and even more importantly you can observe the inflation of goals in every league, whether they played there or not.

Guess what, it is not even an argument it is a fact. It is mathematically proven that top teams score more than in the 90s. You can also approach this from the opposite direction: Why did Cristiano and Messi came not even remotely close to reproducing their goal records for Portugal and Argentina? Because their teams there weren't as good and sophisticated as their club teams. And there is no question that the quality of teams they played in relative to the competition is tiers above the quality of teams R9 played in relative to their competition.

This is very basic stuff. Can't believe you force me to write this down.

After Ronaldo left Barca they averaged 76 league goals a season for the league 5 seasons

After cristiano left Madrid they averaged 71 league goals a season from thr next 5 seasons

After Messi left Barca (smaller sample size obviously) they averaged 69 goals a season for the next 2 seasons. It seems as though the top teams only scored more when Messi and Ronaldo were there, since then there average is lower than the Barca Ronaldo played for after he left

 

[Krakenzero]

Well No it isn't since Ronaldo left, real Madrid's league tallies have been

63
70
67
80
75

Over5 seasons that's an average of 71 and rhe highest scorers in 97-98 serie a had 67

Aince Messi left Barca have scored

68
70

An average of 69.

So unless you want to dispute basic maths, the these tallies have not been hugely out of proportion with the serie a Ronaldo played in

The literal average of a Serie A team in 1997/1998 was 45 goals a season. Inter's was 62, with their previous season being 51. Either your stats are horribly wrong, or you are interpreting them in extremely strange ways.

 

[Zehner]

Ronaldo is the best big game player in history. 41 goals from the quarter finals onwards in the champions league, Messi is next with 19.

Again the 2010s super team ronadlo played for averaged 71 goals in the 5 seasons since he left

Barca in the 5 seao s after Ronaldo left averaged 76. So who was stat padding?

After Ronaldo left Barca they averaged 76 league goals a season for the league 5 seasons

After cristiano left Madrid they averaged 71 league goals a season from thr next 5 seasons

After Messi left Barca (smaller sample size obviously) they averaged 69 goals a season for the next 2 seasons. It seems as though the top teams only scored more when Messi and Ronaldo were there, since then there average is lower than the Barca Ronaldo played for after he left

Who the feck cares? Do you think I'm stupid and don't understand what you write the first time?

 

[tomaldinho1]

Is Ronaldinho the most loved player?

He's probably mine - just loved football and played for the crowd.

 

[Krakenzero]

None of those players you listed played for Portugal, who during ronaldo's peak were awful.

He also scored 10 goals in 5 games agaisnt bayern Munich, atletico and juventus in the run to a champions league final when the world wad watching. Slightly better opposition than Australia, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Poland, Croatia, Netherlands and France.

Portugal practically hasn't been out of the top 10 in ranking FIFA since 2004, ocasionally being top 5. That's the best they have ever been. Maybe you need to look at your stats again.

 

[jm99]

Who the feck cares? Do you think I'm stupid and don't understand what you write the first time?

Well you dont seem to. You keep stating big teams score more now than then, but Barca of the 90s scored more without Ronaldo than current barca have without Messi or current real without Ronaldo. Surely the super team of the 2010s would be scoring more than the paupers Ronaldo had to play with in the 90s with all this goal inflation, except as soon as cr7 and Messi leave, the goal inflation goes with the

 

[jm99]

Portugal practically hasn't been out of the top 10 in ranking FIFA since 2004, ocasionally being top 5. That's the best they have ever been. Maybe you need to look at your stats again.

2010 and 2014 Portugal were terrible, they had postiga up front didn't they. It was only really once you got to 2018 and 2022 that they had good supporting players but Ronaldo was out of his prime. Belgium were number 1 in the world rankings for ages but were never the best side in the world, they may be somewhat flawed

 

[jm99]

The literal average of a Serie A team in 1997/1998 was 45 goals a season. Inter's was 62, with their previous season being 51. Either your stats are horribly wrong, or you are interpreting them in extremely strange ways.

The top scorers were juventus with 67, of courserhe average would be lower. Real Madrid averaging 71 Is 4 higher than the top scorer in 97 /98aerie a

However 97/98 serie over the whole league seaosn averaged 2.73 goals per game.

18 /19 la liga avwraged 2.59, so there were actuallt less goals in 18/19 la liga than 97/98 serie a on average

 

[Krakenzero]

Ronaldo is the best big game player in history.

WC contributions say otherwise.

Again the 2010s super team ronadlo played for averaged 71 goals in the 5 seasons since he left

Barca in the 5 seao s after Ronaldo left averaged 76. So who was stat padding?

Considerably more than the averages of serie A at the time. By the way, how did Ronaldo stat padded from ONE season in La Liga? Coming from PSV of all places? I think you're starting to lose the plot here.

 

[Krakenzero]

2010 and 2014 Portugal were terrible, they had postiga up front didn't they. It was only really once you got to 2018 and 2022 that they had good supporting players but Ronaldo was out of his prime. Belgium were number 1 in the world rankings for ages but were never the best side in the world, they may be somewhat flawed

So Cristiano Ronaldo is the best big Game player in history, except in the best competition of all, when he is at his peak in a team that's only top 10 in ranking FIFA but it's terrible anyway. I see.

 

[jm99]

WC contributions say otherwise.



Considerably more than the averages of serie A at the time. By the way, how did Ronaldo stat padded from ONE season in La Liga? Coming from PSV of all places? I think you're starting to lose the plot here.

World Cup contributions are agaisnt worse sides than champions league teams

Seria 97 /98 averaged more goals per game than 18/19 la liga. Real Madrid managed 63 goals once they lost ronaldo

The Barca that ronaldo played for managed more goals without him in the next 5 seasons than real did without cristiano. So it appears cristisno and Messi were responsible for goal inflation

 

[jm99]

So Cristiano Ronaldo is the best big Game player in history, except in the best competition of all, when he is at his peak in a team that's only top 10 in ranking FIFA but it's terrible anyway. I see.

The world cup might be the most important competition but its not the best and its not the highest level

 

[Krakenzero]

The top scorers were juventus with 67, of courserhe average would be lower. Real Madrid averaging 71 Is 4 higher than the top scorer in 97 /98aerie a

However 97/98 serie over the whole league seaosn averaged 2.73 goals per game.

18 /19 la liga avwraged 2.59, so there were actuallt less goals in 18/19 la liga than 97/98 serie a on average

That average you're refering to is lower than the La Liga average of:

2010/2011
2011/2012
2012/2013
2013/2014
2015/2016
2016/2017

And of course, you're comparing a La Liga without Messi with a Serie A with Ronaldo, so there's that.

 

[jm99]

That average you're refering to is lower than the La Liga average of:

2010/2011
2011/2012
2012/2013
2013/2014
2015/2016
2016/2017

And of course, you're comparing a La Liga without Messi with a Serie A with Ronaldo, so there's that.

You're reinforcing my point, Messi and ronadlo were responsible for the goal inflation, once they left it dropped. And no, Messi was still st Barca on 18/19it was only ronadlo that had left Madrid at that point t

 

[Krakenzero]

The world cup might be the most important competition but its not the best and its not the highest level

As @Andrade has posted before, WC is the make or break moment for legends. Cristiano Ronaldo is just not at that level. And Messi only got there recently.

 

[jm99]

As @Andrade has posted before, WC is the make or break moment for legends. Cristiano Ronaldo just is not at that level. And Messi only got there recently.

Messi and Ronadlo were already the two best in history with or without a world cup win. World Cups used to be more important, but the champions league is so much higher level of football its crazy. The world cup still has more prestige because its every 4 years but its not a higher level.

You can tell andrade is being disingenuous when talking about Ronaldo anyway saying he had 5 chances to win it, including a tournament where he wasn't even europa league standard anymore and was about to turn 38