Would Ronaldo have been so adored if he played football in this current era

[Zehner]

Well you dont seem to. You keep stating big teams score more now than then, but Barca of the 90s scored more without Ronaldo than current barca have without Messi or current real without Ronaldo. Surely the super team of the 2010s would be scoring more than the paupers Ronaldo had to play with in the 90s with all this goal inflation, except as soon as cr7 and Messi leave, the goal inflation goes with the

Tell me, what kind of logic is that? Taking the goal records only of the clubs that went through a huge rebuild after their top star left and, in Barca's case, got into huge financial trouble? And why would we ignore the goal records of Barca and Madrid while Cristiano and Messi were there? They're part of the equation not excluded.

But I have a statistic for you:

Average goal return of top 3 scoring teams:

La Liga 1990s: 74.9
La Liga 2010s: 100
Serie A 1990s: 61,1

 

[Hozierstanks]

That was a great read.

 

[Krakenzero]

You're reinforcing my point, Messi and ronadlo were responsible for the goal inflation, once they left it dropped. And no, Messi was still st Barca on 18/19it was only ronadlo that had left Madrid at that point t

We're talking about Ronaldo, not Cristiano Ronaldo. You're comparing seasons with a player, with seasons without a player. But you can make the same exercise with Ronaldo over his serie A seasons and see if it has "goal inflation".

Messi and Ronadlo were already the two best in history with or without a world cup win. World Cups used to be more important, but the champions league is so much higher level of football its crazy. The world cup still has more prestige because its every 4 years but its not a higher level.

Of course, all of what you said here has no basis at all in stats.

 

[jm99]

Tell me, what kind of logic is that? Taking the goal records only of the clubs that went through a huge rebuild after their top star left and, in Barca's case, got into huge financial trouble? And why would we ignore the goal records of Barca and Madrid while Cristiano and Messi were there? They're part of the equation not excluded.

But I have a statistic for you:

Average goal return of top 3 scoring teams:

La Liga 1990s: 74.9
La Liga 2010s: 100
Serie A 1990s: 61,1

The 2010s stat is only so high because those sides had Ronaldo and Messi. We ignore it because you're arguing they benefited from playing in super teams. Yet when Ronaldo was replaced by benzema as the primary scorer, suddenly the teams return fell off a cliff, Messi being replaced by lewandowski the teams goal output is still far lower. They caused the goal inflation, they weren't beneficiaries

 

[jm99]

We're talking about Ronaldo, not Cristiano Ronaldo. You're comparing seasons with a player, with seasons without a player. But you can make the same exercise with Ronaldo over his serie A seasons and see if it has "goal inflation".



Of course, all of what you said here has no basis at all in stats.

Well I didn't want to include all of ronaldo's serie a seasons because he had bad injuries and it would be unfair on him.

I don't really need stats to prove it, a team like Australia would never reach the las1t 16 of the chmaoipns league, its clearly a higher level

 

[Zehner]

The 2010s stat is only so high because those sides had Ronaldo and Messi. We ignore it because you're arguing they benefited from playing in super teams. Yet when Ronaldo was replaced by benzema as the primary scorer, suddenly the teams return fell off a cliff, Messi being replaced by lewandowski the teams goal output is still far lower. They caused the goal inflation, they weren't beneficiaries

Alright two questions:

1) If they were the reason for goal inflation, then there should be no goal inflation in the EPL, Bundesliga and Serie A, no?

2) Ronaldo has scored every 110 minutes over his club career but only every 129 minutes for Portugal. Messi has scored every 101 minutes for his clubs but only every 141 minutes for Argentina. Why do you think that is the case?

 

[Lay]

Well I didn't want to include all of ronaldo's serie a seasons because he had bad injuries and it would be unfair on him.

I don't really need stats to prove it, a team like Australia would never reach the las1t 16 of the chmaoipns league, its clearly a higher level

I mean they might if they got a kind draw. Apoel Nicosia made it to the UCL quarter finals a decade ago

 

[El Jefe]

At this point this thread is just one loud and wrong poster spamming stats with very little context.

How can you debate with anyone who admittedly saw very little of Ronaldo in the 90s but is using stats from a previous era (a defensive era) to compare against the 2010s with the goal boom, especially in La Liga. Its a nonsense argument. A bit like those who compare our 90s team PL points total to those in the last 5-7 years.

If someone doesn't think Ronaldo wouldn't be as loved and can cite actual things that happened on the pitch or limitations in his game then great the discussion can be had. When the whole premise of the argument is a player's Wikipedia page, it's probably best to save yourself time and stop arguing.

 

[Zehner]

At this point this thread is just one loud and wrong poster spamming stats with very little context.

How can you debate with anyone who admittedly saw very little of Ronaldo in the 90s but is using stats from a previous era (a defensive era) to compare against the 2010s with the goal boom, especially in La Liga. Its a nonsense argument. A bit like those who compare our 90s team PL points total to those in the last 5-7 years.

If someone doesn't think Ronaldo wouldn't be as loved and can cite actual things that happened on the pitch or limitations in his game then great the discussion can be had. When the whole premise of the argument is a player's Wikipedia page, it's probably best to save yourself time and stop arguing.

Yeah but that kind of ignorance is just so frustrating it irks in your fingertips

 

[jm99]

Alright two questions:

1) If they were the reason for goal inflation, then there should be no goal inflation in the EPL, Bundesliga and Serie A, no?

2) Ronaldo has scored every 110 minutes over his club career but only every 129 minutes for Portugal. Messi has scored every 101 minutes for his clubs but only every 141 minutes for Argentina. Why do you think that is the case?

Well I can't speak for the other leagues, but la Liga after Ronaldo and Messi have left their respective sides has less goals than they did in the 90s after r9 left.

Ronaldo and Messi played for worse teams and worse managers and in different roles. The gap is bigger for Messi because he plays deeper for Argentina. For Ronaldo a 19 mins per goal difference given he played under Santos for so long, in a team he didn't train with year round isn't that much of a difference. I'm not saying playing with a better team doesn't help at all but you're hugely overestimating how much it added. A 33-35 year old Ronaldo averaged 27 goals a season in serie a, and not in a superteam. Do you really think 26 year old ronaldo wouldn't have hit 40 goals a season.

He got 31 league goals with us before he really hit his prime too. Putting it all down to real and Barca superteams seems odd

 

[Zehner]

Well I can't speak for the other leagues, but la Liga after Ronaldo and Messi have left their respective sides has less goals than they did in the 90s after r9 left.

Even if that was true, it doesn't mean that there was no goal inflation.

Ronaldo and Messi played for worse teams and worse managers and in different roles. The gap is bigger for Messi because he plays deeper for Argentina. For Ronaldo a 19 mins per goal difference given he played under Santos for so long, in a team he didn't train with year round isn't that much of a difference. I'm not saying playing with a better team doesn't help at all but you're hugely overestimating how much it added. A 33-35 year old Ronaldo averaged 27 goals a season in serie a, and not in a superteam. Do you really think 26 year old ronaldo wouldn't have hit 40 goals a season.

R9 scored 47 in 49 (a goal every 90 minutes) for Barcelona. Don't you think he'd score much more playing besides Xavi, Iniesta, Dani Alves, Neymar, Luis Suarez or Modric, Kroos, Marcelo, Benzema, Bale, Alonso, Özil, Di Maria, etc.?

The teams R9 joined usually played in the Uefa Cup because they failed to qualify for the Champions League (admittedly, it was much harder to qualify for the UCL in many cases).

He got 31 league goals with us before he really hit his prime too. Putting it all down to real and Barca superteams seems odd

I'm not putting it all down to Real and Barca superteams. I'm saying that the R9 would have out of this world numbers as well if he played in those super teams. Cristiano is obviously a special goal scorer as well. Still, Cristiano in that season played alongside Tevez, Rooney, Scholes, Giggs, Evra and a bunch of others. That's probably still better than any club team R9 played for in his prime. Not as packed as the Real Madrid and Barca teams of the 2010s but still very, very good individually. Plus a top manager - another factor R9 didn't really have going for him.

That's the context.

 

[jm99]

Even if that was true, it doesn't mean that there was no goal inflation.




R9 scored 47 in 49 (a goal every 90 minutes) for Barcelona. Don't you think he'd score much more playing besides Xavi, Iniesta, Dani Alves, Neymar, Luis Suarez or Modric, Kroos, Marcelo, Benzema, Bale, Alonso, Özil, Di Maria, etc.?

The teams R9 joined usually played in the Uefa Cup because they failed to qualify for the Champions League (admittedly, it was much harder to qualify for the UCL in many cases).




I'm not putting it all down to Real and Barca superteams. I'm saying that the R9 would have out of this world numbers as well if he played in those super teams. Cristiano is obviously a special goal scorer as well. Still, Cristiano in that season played alongside Tevez, Rooney, Scholes, Giggs, Evra and a bunch of others. That's probably still better than any club team R9 played for in his prime. Not as packed as the Real Madrid and Barca teams of the 2010s but still very, very good individually. Plus a top manager - another factor R9 didn't really have going for him.

That's the context.

R9 managed that level of goalscoring once in a top league though. Suarez got 40 league goals once and so did lewandowski, Ronaldo and Messi did it regularly. To say that r9 would definitely match their numbers because he did it at Barca then not at inter is putting an awful lot of work on assumptions.

 

[jm99]

https://gifdb.com/images/high/we-got-him-john-oliver-lp1u784jvfdi95uy.gif

Right, because I said we don't need stats to prove that Australia aren't a champions league level team, that means that stats are totally useless for evaluating players

 

[Krakenzero]

Well I didn't want to include all of ronaldo's serie a seasons because he had bad injuries and it would be unfair on him.

i don't really need stats to prove it, a team like Australia would never reach the las1t 16 of the chmaoipns league, its clearly a higher level

Well...

 

[Zehner]

R9 managed that level of goalscoring once in a top league though. Suarez got 40 league goals once and so did lewandowski, Ronaldo and Messi did it regularly. To say that r9 would definitely match their numbers because he did it at Barca then not at inter is putting an awful lot of work on assumptions.

R9 scored every 126 minutes for Inter, that's still a better return than Messi and Cristiano for their national teams. And as said: He did that in a league in which the goal average for the best (!) teams was around 60.

And I'm not saying that based on those statistics. I'm saying that because I know the player and extrapolate that player in the setup Messi found at Barca or Cristiano at Madrid. I mean, look at the quality of goals he scored for Barca. The share of worldies is incredibly high. Now imagine he'd be served all the easy tap ins Messi and Cristiano got to score because of their team's chance creation.

 

[jm99]

R9 scored every 126 minutes for Inter, that's still a better return than Messi and Cristiano for their national teams. And as said: He did that in a league in which the goal average for the best (!) teams was around 60.

And I'm not saying that based on those statistics. I'm saying that because I know the player and extrapolate that player in the setup Messi found at Barca or Cristiano at Madrid. I mean, look at the quality of goals he scored for Barca. The share of worldies is incredibly high. Now imagine he'd be served all the easy tap ins Messi and Cristiano got to score because of their team's chance creation.

Ronaldo and Messi scored every 71 and 65 minutes in their best seasons in leagues that averaged the same number of goals per game as 97/98 serie a. Nearly doubling his scoring rate would be quite an ask. Its also a bit strange to frame Messi and Ronaldo as easy tap in scorers, Ronaldo has 126 goals from outside the box, Messi has 150 which is a ratio of about 1 in 6.5 and 1 on 5.5 respectively. Did r9 score from outside the box at the same rate? I don't remember seeing 50 goals from outside the box in any compilations.

 

[Joel Miller]

Ronaldo and Messi scored every 71 and 65 minutes in their best seasons in leagues that averaged the same number of goals per game as 97/98 serie a. Nearly doubling his scoring rate would be quite an ask. Its also a bit strange to frame Messi and Ronaldo as easy tap in scorers, Ronaldo has 126 goals from outside the box, Messi has 150 which is a ratio of about 1 in 6.5 and 1 on 5.5 respectively. Did r9 score from outside the box at the same rate? I don't remember seeing 50 goals from outside the box in any compilations.

They did get their share though. And it’s definitely not as strange as trying to tell people
how a player would have done in the modern era when you’re not old enough to have seen said player. Someone has already explained to you the difficulty of Serie A in the 90’s and how much harder it was to score. The idea Messi and Ronaldo are the top 2 in the history of the sport is a bit of a stretch too.

 

[Krakenzero]

Ronaldo and Messi scored every 71 and 65 minutes in their best seasons in leagues that averaged the same number of goals per game as 97/98 serie a. Nearly doubling his scoring rate would be quite an ask. Its also a bit strange to frame Messi and Ronaldo as easy tap in scorers, Ronaldo has 126 goals from outside the box, Messi has 150 which is a ratio of about 1 in 6.5 and 1 on 5.5 respectively. Did r9 score from outside the box at the same rate? I don't remember seeing 50 goals from outside the box in any compilations.

Wrong again, as -as posted above- the average goals per game was way above 97/98 serie A (which was also an above average scoring season for the serie A at the time) 6 out of 7 seasons.

 

[Andrade]

As @Andrade has posted before, WC is the make or break moment for legends. Cristiano Ronaldo is just not at that level. And Messi only got there recently.

Absolutely. Messi would have been criticised for the rest of eternity had he not managed to win it (or at least not managed to ever score in the KO stages). Even with everything else he's achieved.

CR7 will not be criticised as much for flopping in 5 straight World Cups because he's not held to the same stankard as Messi because everyone knows deep down that he's not as good.

But the point of the thread is R9, and younger people don't seem to realise how much his World Cup exploits (even the tragedy of the 98 final) help his story and standing in the game.

 

[jm99]

They did get their share though. And it’s definitely not as strange as trying to tell people
how a player would have done in the modern era when you’re not old enough to have seen said player. Someone has already explained to you the difficulty of Serie A in the 90’s and how much harder it was to score. The idea Messi and Ronaldo are the top 2 in the history of the sport is a bit of a stretch too.

The average goals per game in 97/98 serie a was 2.73 goals per game

In la liga during the seasons Messi and Ronaldo both played there

09/10 - 2.71
10/11 - 2.74
11/12 - 2.76
12/13 - 2.87
13/14 -2.75
14/15 - 2.65
15/16 - 2.74
16/17 - 2.94
17/18 - 2.69

So with 2 seasons that were very much the exception the number of goals per game in la liga when Messi and Ronaldo played there was largely very similar to serie a 97/98

 

[jm99]

Wrong again, as -as posted above- the average goals per game was way above 97/98 serie A (which was also an above average scoring season for the serie A at the time) 6 out of 7 seasons.

It was higher in 6 out of 9 seasons and lower in 3out of 9, though I don't know iff I'd categorise 0.02 goals per game difference as way above

 

[Zehner]

The average goals per game in 97/98 serie a was 2.73 goals per game

In la liga during the seasons Messi and Ronaldo both played there

09/10 - 2.71
10/11 - 2.74
11/12 - 2.76
12/13 - 2.87
13/14 -2.75
14/15 - 2.65
15/16 - 2.74
16/17 - 2.94
17/18 - 2.69

So with 2 seasons that were very much the exception the number of goals per game in la liga when Messi and Ronaldo played there was largely very similar to serie a 97/98

4:0 or 2:2, both counts as 4 goals. In case of the 4:0, I know in which team I'm likelier to score.

 

[jm99]

4:0 or 2:2, both counts as 4 goals. In case of the 4:0, I know in which team I'm likelier to score.

Sure and yet since Ronaldo left real madrid's top league scorer each season has been around 20 goals, with one exceptional season having benzema at 27, similar story with Barca since Messi left. Why aren't benzema and lewandowski getting the superteam goal inflation from these sides when Ronaldo was benefiting from it for 9 straight seasons, then it immediately stopped as soon as he left

 

[Dan]

Imagine reducing a great player as in Ronaldo Luis down to raw stats, what an awful thread this is.

 

[Kelly15]

What a player he was. So glad I was lucky enough to see him play. He was unstoppable. Right foot left foot didn't matter he was a truly 2 footed player. Players grabbing his kit, surrounded by 3 players, crazy lunging tackles, yet he still kept the ball and scored. Imagine Ronaldo playing on the pristine pitches of today with the protection that players rightfully get now, playing in a super team, and with today's social media. Can't imagine how popular he would be. Modern medical would of helped with those injuries too as knee surgery is a million miles better.

 

[fps]

Right sure, but not on the level of Cristiano or Messi who at their peak only Luis suarez, one of the best strikers ever outscored them.

I'm not suggesting r9 wouldn't be a world class striker in the 2010s, but Messi and Ronaldo are the two best ever and there would be quite a gap

Such arguments are not helpful, especially when considering the quality of Serie A in the 90s and the other attackers playing.

 

[fps]

Imagine reducing a great player as in Ronaldo Luis down to raw stats, what an awful thread this is.

Pretty tragic stuff. A fairly strong sense a lot of people didn't watch him play. It was like there was an alien on the pitch.

 

[jm99]

Such arguments are not helpful, especially when considering the quality of Serie A in the 90s and the other attackers playing.

The other attackers who outscored him being bierhoff? Who's nowhere near a GOAT striker discussion

 

[Lay]

The other attackers who outscored him being bierhoff? Who's nowhere near a GOAT striker discussion

it’s a weird point you’re making. Players can have an anomaly of a season. Beirhoff scored the winning two goals in the euros a couple seasons prior. He outscored Ronaldo, Batistuta, Baggio, Del Piero and so on and scored 20 the next season at a better club (Milan) and won the league

Maybe it’s how Udinese played? As the next season another Udinese player finished top scorer.

 

[jm99]

it’s a weird point you’re making. Players can have an anomaly of a season. Beirhoff scored the winning two goals in the euros a couple seasons prior. He outscored Ronaldo, Batistuta, Baggio, Del Piero and so on and scored 20 the next season at a better club (Milan)

Maybe it’s how Udinese played? As the next season another Udinese player finished top scorer.

Well it's just because of ronaldo's injuries we have a very small sample size to go off of, so if you're going to make claims like he'd have outscored peak cr7 and Messi, you'd imagine he'd have outscored everyone in the league at the time yet he only did that once in one of the top leagues and in his other peak season he didn't. If i started to bring up that he was nowhere near cr7 or Messi despite having his own superteam at Real then I'd get told well we can't judge off of that because of his injuries.

 

[Swoobs]

In yet another JM99 versus the rest of the posters thread, never seem to end

An old saying, when it occurs once it is perhaps just a misunderstanding, when it occurs many many times (and usually with almost the rest of the posters), then perhaps one is the problem

 

[Andrade]

Messi and Ronadlo were already the two best in history with or without a world cup win. World Cups used to be more important, but the champions league is so much higher level of football its crazy. The world cup still has more prestige because its every 4 years but its not a higher level.

You can tell andrade is being disingenuous when talking about Ronaldo anyway saying he had 5 chances to win it, including a tournament where he wasn't even europa league standard anymore and was about to turn 38

He did have 5 chances to win it. There's nothing disingenuous here. He also had five chances to actually perform well in it and he hasn't done that either, a much lower bar. Win a Golden Ball maybe. Or a silver ball. Or a Bronze Ball. Or, because he's a become a penalty box player, he had multiple chances to win a Golden Boot. Or a silver boot. Or even a paltry bronze boot. He has literally done none of the above. He has failed on the biggest stage more times than any other top player. And you keep trying to denigrate R9, a World Cup legend. It's hilarious.

By the way, you keep saying that Messi and Ronaldo are the top 2 in history. They are not. The 3 best players in history by common consensus are Pele, Messi and Maradona.

 

[Zehner]

Messi and Ronadlo were already the two best in history with or without a world cup win.

Nice try but no

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

He did have 5 chances to win it. There's nothing disingenuous here. He also had five chances to actually perform well in it and he hasn't done that either, a much lower bar. Win a Golden Ball maybe. Or a silver ball. Or a Bronze Ball. Or, because he's a become a penalty box player, he had multiple chances to win a Golden Boot. Or a silver boot. Or even a paltry bronze boot. He has literally done none of the above. He has failed on the biggest stage more times than any other top player. And you keep trying to denigrate R9, a World Cup legend. It's hilarious.

By the way, you keep saying that Messi and Ronaldo are the top 2 in history. They are not. The 3 best players in history by common consensus are Pele, Messi and Maradona.

Agreed. That should sum up and put an end to the thread.

 

[jm99]

He did have 5 chances to win it. There's nothing disingenuous here. He also had five chances to actually perform well in it and he hasn't done that either, a much lower bar. Win a Golden Ball maybe. Or a silver ball. Or a Bronze Ball. Or, because he's a become a penalty box player, he had multiple chances to win a Golden Boot. Or a silver boot. Or even a paltry bronze boot. He has literally done none of the above. He has failed on the biggest stage more times than any other top player. And you keep trying to denigrate R9, a World Cup legend. It's hilarious.

By the way, you keep saying that Messi and Ronaldo are the top 2 in history. They are not. The 3 best players in history by common consensus are Pele, Messi and Maradona.

Well it is disingenuous to include tournaments when he's 37 and clearly past it as a chance to win it for his country when he struggled to score agaisnt teams from cyprus. He was also playing for Portugal, so in 2018 he scored 3 goals in 4 games which is pretty good and if playing for a team that had a chance of progressing further a good chance of a golden boot.

I'm saying r9 isn't as good because I'm not obsessed with international football like you, I have this weird thing where you judge players off the 900 games or so they played for their club at a much higher level against much better opposition than 7 games every 4 years

 

[JPRouve]

The cyclical idea that Portugal haven't been a strong NT during the last two decades with many world class and excellent players.

 

[jm99]

The cyclical idea that Portugal haven't been a strong NT during the last two decades with many world class and excellent players.

Not in 2010 or 2014 they weren't. 2006 or 2018 maybe. R9 played in some stacked club sides and not only never won the champions league, he only scored 14 goals and 3 in the Knockout stage.

 

[Zehner]

Not in 2010 or 2014 they weren't. 2006 or 2018 maybe. R9 played in some stacked club sides and not only never won the champions league, he only scored 14 goals and 3 in the Knockout stage.

Yeah, R9 didn't play UCL in his best years because back then you needed to win your league to qualify. If the rules were the same, Cristiano would have 4 UCLs less to his belt and probably around 10% of his knockout goals.

You really are the undisputed champion of double standards.

 

[JPRouve]

Not in 2010 or 2014 they weren't. 2006 or 2018 maybe. R9 played in some stacked club sides and not only never won the champions league, he only scored 14 goals and 3 in the Knockout stage.

Portugal had a strong NT in 2010 and they also had one in 2014. They didn't have a worse team than Ghana or Uruguay, on paper they arguably had the best defense, they had the best or second best player in the World and a solid midfield that probably lacked top level creativtiy though someone like Danny was a pretty good creator. The 2014 squad was in a similar ball park but with better options in midfield since Tiago had improved and Moutinho was added.

NT are rarely better than that with some exceptions and worse players than Ronaldo don't get the same level of excuses.

 

[jm99]

Yeah, R9 didn't play UCL in his best years because back then you needed to win your league to qualify. If the rules were the same, Cristiano would have 4 UCLs less to his belt and probably around 10% of his knockout goals.

You really are the undisputed champion of double standards.

But he did join the team that had won 2 champions leagues in 3 years and had just been the best player at the world cup in 2002, which plenty of people in this thread say is the highest level of foot all, far harder than a champions league, so if he was able to knock goals past China and Costa Rica and dominate a world cup, the best level of football apparently, why did he struggle in the champions league?