Would Ronaldo have been so adored if he played football in this current era

[Cassidy]

I mean it's a running theme through this thread not with you particularly. Any attempt to objectively compare him to current players is dismissed. Trophies, stats, highlights, etc

Probably because he was, but he wasn't near Messi and ronaldo

He was better than both players you mentioned at 20, what happened later well we all know he didn't reach their heights later on he was hampered by injuries

 

[jm99]

He was better than both players you mentioned at 20, what happened later well we all know he didn't reach their heights later on he was hampered by injuries

Rooney was better than both at 18, so what. Plenty of players peak young

 

[Cassidy]

Rooney was better than both at 18, so what. Plenty of players peak young

Not plenty of players still looked like one of the best strikers in the world with a bum knee. Rooney also was not in Ronaldos stratosphere at 20, not many players were already the best player in the world at 20/21

 

[jm99]

Not plenty of players still looked like one of the best strikers in the world with a bum knee. Rooney also was not in Ronaldos stratosphere at 20, not many players were already the best player in the world at 20/21

Messi at 21 though was better than r9 ever was. Cristiano peaked later than either though.

It's fair to consider him one of the best strikers ever or say he was the best player in the world by 21, but you can't say he'd be as good as Ronaldo or Messi based on an imagined career trajectory

 

[Cassidy]

Messi at 21 though was better than r9 ever was. Cristiano peaked later than either though.

It's fair to consider him one of the best strikers ever or say he was the best player in the world by 21, but you can't say he'd be as good as Ronaldo or Messi based on an imagined career trajectory

I never did, you seem to be arguing with yourself.
What I said was he was clearly hampered by injury.

I'm not sure Messi at 21 (2008?) was better than r9 at Barcelona at 20/21 (96/97?), infact I think Ronaldo was better

 

[jm99]

I never did, you seem to be arguing with yourself.
What I said was he was clearly hampered by injury.

I'm not sure Messi at 21 (2008?) was better than r9 at Barcelona at 20/21 (96/97?), infact I think Ronaldo was better

You aren't the only poster in this thread. My original argument was that he'd be less adored because two other better players were around at the same time, no nostalgia and people being more reactive. Players are shit now as soon as they have a few bad games, and brilliant off the back of a few good ones. No one from that era would be as adored now as they were then

Well Messi turned 21 in summer 2008, so he was 21 for the whole 08/09 season. So its probably quite close between the two

 

[Cassidy]

You aren't the only poster in this thread. My original argument was that he'd be less adored because two other better players were around at the same time, no nostalgia and people being more reactive. Players are shit now as soon as they have a few bad games, and brilliant off the back of a few good ones. No one from that era would be as adored now as they were then

Well Messi turned 21 in summer 2008, so he was 21 for the whole 08/09 season. So its probably quite close between the two

He wasn't less adored when Messi and Ronaldo were around though

Is it close between the 2 or "Messi at 21 though was better than r9 ever was."?

Ronaldo in my opinion at his peak was better than 08/09 Messi. Messi went on to a different level from 2010 that's just my opinion.

 

[HTG]

He would be hated. People would throw rotten fruits at him. They would yell „we don’t appreciate you in this current era!“
Sad but this is how it is.

 

[jm99]

He wasn't less adored when Messi and Ronaldo were around though

Is it close between the 2 or "Messi at 21 though was better than r9 ever was."?

Ronaldo in my opinion at his peak was better than 08/09 Messi. Messi went on to a different level from 2010 that's just my opinion.

What I'm saying is he'd be less adored if he played at the same time as two other better players, when Ronaldo scored 47 goals ina season for Barca it took about 15 years for someone to beat that, if two players were scoring 60 goals year at the same time of course his achievements would seem less impressive comparatively.

Tbh I think even the start of the 09-10 season, Messi had gone up a level. Even towards the end of 08/09

 

[Zehner]

La Liga GPG was also inflated by 2 ATG playing at the same time and basically scoring at record breaking rate (by pre-Messi/Cristiano era standards) every single season, Since both Messi and Cristiano left La Liga GPG became the lowest in Europe, Failing to break 2.5.



Equalizing+Leading goals (peak):
R9 96/97: 15G in La Liga+EC. 39G overall, 62% of goals could be classified as statpadding.
Messi 12/13: 24G in La Liga+CL. 54G overall, 57% of goals could be classified as statpadding.
Cristiano 11/12: 29G in La Liga+CL 56G overall, 48% of goals could be classified as statpadding.

And both did it with much larger sample size. The statpadding argument doesn't hold, Messi and Cristiano were more decisive players than R9 ever been, Better footballers too.

I'm sorry mate but you won't convince me with that sort of superficial armchair statistic. It's clear that you can't compare the goal records of these players since the eras are so fundamentally different. So much so that it makes even the attempt at a direct comparison frankly speaking completely ridiculous. Watch the player and if you believe he wouldn't totally excel in today's game, then my opinion is that you have no clue what you're talking about. The guy had incredible physical attributes with his acceleration, top speed, strength, balance and agility plus one of the finest techniques the sport has ever witnessed paired with an incredible instinct for goals.

On the other hand, if you can't see that Messi's and Cristiano's goal output was extremely inflated by playing in an era a) with previously unparalled concentrations of elite players in a handful of teams and b) immediately after a tactical revolution that pivoted in a much more attacking oriented and systemized football that served them an incredible amount of easy goals on a silver plate, then I can't help you. I'm a huge fan of Messi myself and admire Cristiano but it just is what it is. Their insane goal records are not only a product of their insane individual class but also the result of being at the right place at exactly the right time. There is absolutely no way Cristiano and Messi would have similar goal totals if they were born 10 years earlier.

 

[Andrade]

You keep doing this weird thing where you equate importance with judging ability. The world cup happens only every 4 years, it used to be the best level (though clearly isn't any more) there's only been 23 world cups ever and it's usually free to air or widely available around the world, moreso than club football. So yes it's a very important tournament.

It does not mean that someone who saw a player 7 games every 4 years, most of which were agaisnt championship level sides could accurately judge a player

The World Cup is still the best level. As proven by the fact that your guy CR7 has consistently failed in it.

How many games of a player do you need to watch to judge them? And why?

 

[Cassidy]

What I'm saying is he'd be less adored if he played at the same time as two other better players, when Ronaldo scored 47 goals ina season for Barca it took about 15 years for someone to beat that, if two players were scoring 60 goals year at the same time of course his achievements would seem less impressive comparatively.

Tbh I think even the start of the 09-10 season, Messi had gone up a level. Even towards the end of 08/09

And I'm saying I disagree. He would have scored a lot more goals if he was born later because it was harder to score back in 97/98 than in 2012 (that's just my opinion)
In my opinion Ronaldo was a much better striker than Lewndowski but Lewandowski scored 40/50+ goals in the 2010-2020 era

 

[jm99]

The World Cup is still the best level. As proven by the fact that your guy CR7 has consistently failed in it.

How many games of a player do you need to watch to judge them? And why?

We've had this argument multiple times on here and you always ignore that Ronaldo played two world cups at hid peak and in one of them hewas carrying a bad knee injury. So you're basically judging it off 2010 and 4 games.

Well given that you could probably find 14 games of any decent striker and if solely judged by them you'd call them world class then usually judge them off a couple of season

Tbf though if the games hadn

 

[jm99]

I'm sorry mate but you won't convince me with that sort of superficial armchair statistic. It's clear that you can't compare the goal records of these players since the eras are so fundamentally different. So much so that it makes even the attempt at a direct comparison frankly speaking completely ridiculous. Watch the player and if you believe he wouldn't totally excel in today's game, then my opinion is that you have no clue what you're talking about. The guy had incredible physical attributes with his acceleration, top speed, strength, balance and agility plus one of the finest techniques the sport has ever witnessed paired with an incredible instinct for goals.

On the other hand, if you can't see that Messi's and Cristiano's goal output was extremely inflated by playing in an era a) with previously unparalled concentrations of elite players in a handful of teams and b) immediately after a tactical revolution that pivoted in a much more attacking oriented and systemized football that served them an incredible amount of easy goals on a silver plate, then I can't help you. I'm a huge fan of Messi myself and admire Cristiano but it just is what it is. Their insane goal records are not only a product of their insane individual class but also the result of being at the right place at exactly the right time. There is absolutely no way Cristiano and Messi would have similar goal totals if they were born 10 years earlier.

Since you've ignored it twice, why have real Madrid averaged 70 league goals a season since ronadlo left while averaging over 100 with him there for 9 years, and Barca averaging 69 league goals since Messi left, again averaging closets 100 with him there for 15 years? If its down to the concentration of players on these super teams.

How did a 34-36 year old Ronaldo average 28 league goals a year at juventus when they were far from a super team and he was far below his peak?

 

[Zehner]

Since you've ignored it twice, why have real Madrid averaged 70 league goals a season since ronadlo left while averaging over 100 with him there for 9 years, and Barca averaging 69 league goals since Messi left, again averaging closets 100 with him there for 15 years? If its down to the concentration of players on these super teams.

How did a 34-36 year old Ronaldo average 28 league goals a year at juventus when they were far from a super team and he was far below his peak?

I didn't answer because it is irrelevant and I don't want to play your distraction game again

 

[jm99]

I didn't answer because it is irrelevant and I don't want to play your distraction game again

It's not irrelevant at all, if you're claiming Ronaldo and Messi benefited from goal inflation from playing for their teams, but their teams average goals scored drops by over 30 as soon as they leave compared to their time there, then it certainly indicates it was them and not their teams.

 

[Krakenzero]

So apparently nostalgia bias exists, but recency bias doesn't.

WC stats (the most important tournament in this metrics) tend to pulverize the notion that Ronaldo was a lesser player than the other two mentioned. Which blows away the base of the argument that he would have been less adored.

 

[jm99]

So apparently nostalgia bias exists, but recency bias doesn't.

WC stats (the most important tournament in this metrics) tend to pulverize the notion that Ronaldo was a lesser player than the other two mentioned. Which blows away the base of the argument that he would have been less adored.

Recency bias does exist, that's why I've tried to use statistics, goals scored how their teams did before they joined and after they left.

7 games every 4 years are not a better way to judge players (particularly when neither Messi or Ronaldo ever had an international side close to 2002 brazil), than 60 games played over a season every year for 15 years

 

[Zehner]

It's not irrelevant at all, if you're claiming Ronaldo and Messi benefited from goal inflation from playing for their teams, but their teams average goals scored drops by over 30 as soon as they leave compared to their time there, then it certainly indicates it was them and not their teams.

No it is not relevant. Of course their teams' outputs dropped, they were the two best attackers in the world, how wouldn't it? That has nothing to do with the point I was making. Just look at the tables and compare the highest goal outputs during the Messi/CR7 era with the 90s. Not only Madrid and Barca but everywhere.

And that's only logical as the gaps in budget between the top teams and the runner ups is getting bigger with every year. The concentration of top talent at a handful of clubs hasn't been as extreme in the 90s. And not only that, there are so much more aspects in which top teams have distanced themselves from the rest of the league, like infrastructure, scouting and analytics, medical teams, and so forth. And it doesn't stop here. At the beginning of their primes, we've seen a tactical revolution with the emphasis on pressing and possession football driven by Guardiola and Klopp. It became much more systemized and less negative compared to the 90s. Which is why we've seen a few players reaching previously unseen goal outputs, not only Messi and CR7 but also Lewandowski, Suarez, Salah and Haaland for example. Or the introduction of VAR that saw Cristiano score an unprecedented 12 (?) penalties in Serie A. Plus there's R9's individual situation. In his ptime years that spanned maybe 5 seasons, he switched clubs three times. How did Cristiano do in his first Madrid season? Now imagine R9 who scored 40 in 40 or so for Barca in his debut season despite all the stuff mentioned above growing into his own over 8-9 seasons as Cristiano did, profiting from more and more automatisms, getting to know his team mates better and so forth.

If you really want to compare their goal records, you have to consider all of this. Or, you know, you could stop this silliness and just watch the player and imagine what somebody with such a prodigious skill set could do in the super teams we're witnessing today, e. g. Guardiola's City.

 

[jm99]

No it is not relevant. Of course their teams' outputs dropped, they were the two best attackers in the world, how wouldn't it? That has nothing to do with the point I was making. Just look at the tables and compare the highest goal outputs during the Messi/CR7 era with the 90s. Not only Madrid and Barca but everywhere.

And that's only logical as the gaps in budget between the top teams and the runner ups is getting bigger with every year. The concentration of top talent at a handful of clubs hasn't been as extreme in the 90s. And not only that, there are so much more aspects in which top teams have distanced themselves from the rest of the league, like infrastructure, scouting and analytics, medical teams, and so forth. And it doesn't stop here. At the beginning of their primes, we've seen a tactical revolution with the emphasis on pressing and possession football driven by Guardiola and Klopp. It became much more systemized and less negative compared to the 90s. Which is why we've seen a few players reaching previously unseen goal outputs, not only Messi and CR7 but also Lewandowski, Suarez, Salah and Haaland for example. Or the introduction of VAR that saw Cristiano score an unprecedented 12 (?) penalties in Serie A. Plus there's R9's individual situation. In his ptime years that spanned maybe 5 seasons, he switched clubs three times. How did Cristiano do in his first Madrid season? Now imagine R9 who scored 40 in 40 or so for Barca in his debut season despite all the stuff mentioned above growing into his own over 8-9 seasons as Cristiano did, profiting from more and more automatisms, getting to know his team mates better and so forth.

If you really want to compare their goal records, you have to consider all of this. Or, you know, you could stop this silliness and just watch the player and imagine what somebody with such a prodigious skill set could do in the super teams we're witnessing today, e. g. Guardiola's City.

Cristiano scored 33 in 35 in his first Madrid season so basically identical.

The point is how much the output dropped. Barcelona (who won the league the season after Ronaldo left btw) scored 78 goals in the 97/98 season. Real Madrid scored 63. That doesn't really line up with your whole super team thing. Same with Barca without Messi

I'd say the opposite in terms of development, with thr wealth of information freely available online, analytics that are done, even lower teams that can't afford the same things as the top clubs are at less of a disadvantage.

I'm not saying he wasn't a world class striker but he'd have been a distant 3rd best in the world had he played in the mid 2010s

 

[Andrade]

We've had this argument multiple times on here and you always ignore that Ronaldo played two world cups at hid peak and in one of them hewas carrying a bad knee injury. So you're basically judging it off 2010 and 4 games.

Well given that you could probably find 14 games of any decent striker and if solely judged by them you'd call them world class then usually judge them off a couple of season

Tbf though if the games hadn

I always ignore your excuses, yes. He's a World Cup failure and that is a fact. What's hilarious is that he's also played in more World Cups than virtually anybody else, further defeating your argument that he hasn't had enough chances to prove his worth on the biggest stage.

The problem with your other point is that the World Cup is not 'random games' It's the games where the entire world is watching you. Can you deliver when the pressure is really on and you don't have the most expensively assembled club squad in history to help you? With him, the answer is a resounding 'no'

 

[jm99]

I always ignore your excuses, yes. He's a World Cup failure and that is a fact. What's hilarious is that he's also played in more World Cups than virtually anybody else, further defeating your argument that he hasn't had enough chances to prove his worth on the biggest stage.

The problem with your other point is that the World Cup is not 'random games' It's the games where the entire world is watching you. Can you deliver when the pressure is really on and you don't have the most expensively assembled club squad in history to help you? With him, the answer is a resounding 'no'

I don't know that including tournaments played at 37 (when he couldn't even get in the man united team) and 20 (when he still hadn't scored a champions league goal are relevant)

Ita also means that in your opinion, 35 year old Messi is a better player than 27 year old or 23 year old Messi, but if lloris wasn't a joke and had saved some fairly easy penalties in the final, then despite Messi not doing anything differently it would have made him a worse player

 

[Krakenzero]

I don't know that including tournaments played at 37 (when he couldn't even get in the man united team) and 20 (when he still hadn't scored a champions league goal are relevant)

Ita also means that in your opinion, 35 year old Messi is a better player than 27 year old or 23 year old Messi, but if lloris wasn't a joke and had saved some fairly easy penalties in the final, then despite Messi not doing anything differently it would have made him a worse player

Why aren't you considering the most important tournament in the world's stats? Aren't they objective facts? Or maybe you think that stats should be put into context.

 

[jm99]

Why aren't you considering the most important tournament in the world's stats? Aren't they objective facts? Or maybe you think that stats should be put into context.

They are considered, as about 20 games in a 1000 game career. And obviously stats should be put in context, which is why I haven't just said Ronaldo and Messi scored more they were better. I've said they scored more in a league with a lower goal per game on average than the one r9 played in, their teams suffered an enormous drop off without them, and the only player to outscore both during their peak seasons in their league was Luis suarez once, and not Oliver bierhoff

All that is context

 

[Krakenzero]

They are considered, as about 20 games in a 1000 game career. And obviously stats should be put in context, which is why I haven't just said Ronaldo and Messi scored more they were better. I've said they scored more in a league with a lower goal per game on average than the one r9 played in, their teams suffered an enormous drop off without them, and the only player to outscore both during their peak seasons in their league was Luis suarez once, and not Oliver bierhoff

All that is context

So esentially a goal against Getafe would be worth the same as one against Germany in the WC final? I think you'll need a little more context on that.

 

[We need an rvn]

From a neutral fan perspective, 100% he would be. The guy was a phenomenon. For us living in England, or anywhere else in the world for that matter, watching him play for any team was a joy and he's in my top 5 player list of players who I just loved (MVB, Maldini, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo 9). That wouldn't change had he playing in this era or '90's / '00's.

I think the fans of Barca (not so much as he only played there for 1 season), Real, Inter and Milan might feel different as to adoration - but in hindsight I think they'll be damn happy he played for them and gave them same great memories.

You know the sun has gone to your head when you read a post and think - damn, this person thinks exactly like do - and realise it’s your own old post

 

[jm99]

So esentially a goal against Getafe would be worth the same as one against Germany in the WC final? I think you'll need a little more context on that.

No but equally a goal against bayern munich, atletico or barcelona is worth more than against Turkey China and Costa rica

 

[adexkola]

No but equally a goal against bayern munich, atletico or barcelona is worth more than against Turkey China and Costa rica

More people would watch the goal against China so I'd say it's worth more

 

[Von Mistelroum]

Played against some of the best defenders ever too. He would score for fun these days and would definitely be loved. Just look at how the media and fans salivate over Haaland.

 

[jm99]

More people would watch the goal against China so I'd say it's worth more

Not if you're talking about judging the players quality it's not.

 

[jm99]

Played against some of the best defenders ever too. He would score for fun these days and would definitely be loved. Just look at how the media and fans salivate over Haaland.

He didn't even outscore bierhoff in serie a, what makes you think he'd outscore haaland

 

[ReallyUSA]

That Vegas sh would’ve been a way bigger deal

 

[Joel Miller]

But players aren't adored in the same way now as they were back them. Look at our club, three years ago rashford was universally loved, two seasons ago people wanted him sold to psg now after last season fans on here want him given a 20m a year contract. It even happens within the space of one season. When city were trailing arsenal in the league, haaland was a stupid waste of money goal poacher, when he hit a purple patch and city started dominating he was a cheet code, unfair addition and taken them up a level, then he has a poor end to the season and he's a bottler. These discussions all took place in the period of 9 months.

Ronaldo and Messi were utterly unique in that after they hit their peaks, they stayed there for about 15 years without a single season of downtime, and anyone else who doesn't is compared to that level and comes off badly.

Players lose adoration now off a bad half season. Ronaldo has the advantage of being seen through nostalgia and not judged in the same way

I feel like eventually you’ve got to post something that makes sense, the law of averages says it’ll happen. The bolded bit seems like a crazy take though when we’re in the era of weirdo fans following individual players from club to club (rather than supporting their local team), and defending them as though said players were their first born. This really isn’t something that happened back in those days.

 

[jm99]

I feel like eventually you’ve got to post something that makes sense, the law of averages says it’ll happen. The bolded bit seems like a crazy take though when we’re in the era of weirdo fans following individual players from club to club (rather than supporting their local team), and defending them as though said players were their first born. This really isn’t something that happened back in those days.

Equally players weren't triballly hated either. People said Ronaldo was universally adored. But look at now, Messi, some people praise others call him an hgh cheat. Ronaldo, some people praise him, others call him a glorified tap in merchant, lewandowski, some people praise him, others call him a farmers league flat track bully.

Society in general has never been more divided, look at politics, the Middle ground is shrinking, people aren't slightly Conservative, they're going further right, brexity loons. No one can be universally adored, not in general and not in sports. Of course Ronaldo would have people adoring him, perhaps mores than back then as you've alluded to, but it would be far from universal and he'd have far more critics, like the way half of your comments on redcafe are criticising crisitiano. You'd have loads of haters like that as well

 

[Joel Miller]

Equally players weren't triballly hated either. People said Ronaldo was universally adored. But look at now, Messi, some people praise others call him an hgh cheat. Ronaldo, some people praise him, others call him a glorified tap in merchant, lewandowski, some people praise him, others call him a farmers league flat track bully.

Society in general has never been more divided, look at politics, the Middle ground is shrinking, people aren't slightly Conservative, they're going further right, brexity loons. No one can be universally adored, not in general and not in sports. Of course Ronaldo would have people adoring him, perhaps mores than back then as you've alluded to, but it would be far from universal and he'd have far more critics, like the way half of your comments on redcafe are criticising crisitiano. You'd have loads of haters like that as well

Yes but being tribally hated is a direct consequence of this really weird culture of fans following players. It’s not enough to just dedicate their lives to following their favourite player, lots of them have to hate the direct opponents too.

If players slipped up back then they’d still be in for a very rough time. See Beckham after the 98 World Cup or Ronaldo after WC 2006.

 

[jm99]

Yes but being tribally hated is a direct consequence of this really weird culture of fans following players. It’s not enough to just dedicate their lives to following their favourite player, lots of them have to hate the direct opponents too.

If players slipped up back then they’d still be in for a very rough time. See Beckham after the 98 World Cup or Ronaldo after WC 2006.

Right, but that's why Ronaldo and Zidane wouldn't have the same adoration, without social media there wasn't the same level of toxicity, now you don't even have to slip up, people just dislike rival players. So there's no chance he would be as adored now because there would be millions of people who were very loud in their hatred of him.

I mean that's what the OP asks, would rivals dislike that he played for so many different top clubs, rivals within a couple of seasons

I also think the presence of Messi and Ronaldo would mean he wouldn't receive the adoration of being best player in the world, but irrespective of that, social media and division in society means its simply not possible to be universally adored now the way it was back then

 

[Joel Miller]

Right, but that's why Ronaldo and Zidane wouldn't have the same adoration, without social media there wasn't the same level of toxicity, now you don't even have to slip up, people just dislike rival players. So there's no chance he would be as adored now because there would be millions of people who were very loud in their hatred of him.

I mean that's what the OP asks, would rivals dislike that he played for so many different top clubs, rivals within a couple of seasons

I also think the presence of Messi and Ronaldo would mean he wouldn't receive the adoration of being best player in the world, but irrespective of that, social media and division in society means its simply not possible to be universally adored now the way it was back then

I don’t follow that reasoning at all though. There’s no logic there. He was a sensational, generational talent who everyone adored watching. I cant fathom why that would be different now. Better player at his (pre-injury) peak than one of the two other players mentioned too so I can’t see why that would affect things.

You’re just after admitting that we’re in the era of weird fans following players, so of course Ronaldo and Zidane would have that too. They were both superstars, Ronaldo appeared to be on a level most hadnt seen before and he was quite likeable too. There’s just no logic in the suggestion they wouldn’t have had the same adoration now, because he’d have had fans following him from club to club now, spending hours online talking about how he’s the best ever etc etc. Theres always been toxic football fans, they just have an extra platform to use now than the 90’s/2000’s.

 

[jm99]

I don’t follow that reasoning at all though. There’s no logic there. He was a sensational, generational talent who everyone adored watching. I cant fathom why that would be different now. Better player at his (pre-injury) peak than one of the two other players mentioned too so I can’t see why that would affect things.

You’re just after admitting that we’re in the era of weird fans following players, so of course Ronaldo and Zidane would have that too. They were both superstars, Ronaldo appeared to be on a level most hadnt seen before and he was quite likeable too. There’s just no logic in the suggestion they wouldn’t have had the same adoration now, because he’d have had fans following him from club to club now, spending hours online talking about how he’s the best ever etc etc. Theres always been toxic football fans, they just have an extra platform to use now than the 90’s/2000’s.

They'd have their own fans, but they'd have far more haters as well, now than they did then. People earlier in the thread were arguing he'd be universally adored which just wouldn't happen now

 

[Lay]

Is Ronaldinho the most loved player?

 

[Andrade]

I don't know that including tournaments played at 37 (when he couldn't even get in the man united team) and 20 (when he still hadn't scored a champions league goal are relevant)

Ita also means that in your opinion, 35 year old Messi is a better player than 27 year old or 23 year old Messi, but if lloris wasn't a joke and had saved some fairly easy penalties in the final, then despite Messi not doing anything differently it would have made him a worse player

Why not include those tournaments? Pele scored 6 goals in the World Cup at age 17 and twice in the final. Mbappe scored four goals at age 18 and once in the final. R9 wss the best player in the WC at age 21. CR7 was 21, not 20 in 2006 and he did sweet FA. You're making excuses for his repeated failure on the biggest stage again.

Re Messi, he was already the best player at a World Cup in 2014 so he was never the failure on the biggest stage that CR7 has been. But what he was better at in 2022 than he had been previously is leadership .