Yeah I can see how Real Madrid fan pressure = 200m+ population of Brazil, the most expectant football nation in the world. Not to mention the experience of the previous final along with not having played for Brazil for 2 years due to horrific injury.Yeah, no pressure from real Madrid fans to win the champions league
Maybe he just wasn't quite good enough for chmaoioms league football, even if he could score agaisnt the giants of China, Turkey, Costa Rica, Belgium and ok ine decent team in Germany, although the goals were kahn fecking up after a great tournament
Would Ronaldo have been so adored if he played football in this current era
- Thread starter Sir Erik ten Hag
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So what youre saying is that the pressure of the world cup was less improtsnt than the quality of the opposition in the champions league? Because that would be the only explanation for having a near goal a game ratio in one (post injury) and a one in three ratio in the other
The pressure and prestige of the World Cup is higher than the CL because players are representing their country, it only happens every 4 years and the whole world is watching. You also don't get to pick who you play for, which, granted if you play for Brazil you are getting a good leg up but it also adds further pressure and expectation. As others have mentioned, you can't be expected to win it if you are playing for a lesser country, but you do need to turn up and perform on that stage if you want to be the greatest.
It's a fairly simple concept and one of the reasons players like Ronaldo and Zidane are so revered.
As for Ronaldo's CL career and lack of success, maybe you should educate yourself a bit more on it seeing as you seem hooked on it. His teams didn't feature in many seasons for various reasons and those that did often crashed out when he was absent due to injury. He has 2 successive European trophy wins under his belt prior to his knee injuries, scoring in both finals and giving a stand out performance in one of them.
But I'm not judging Ronaldo in absolute numbers, he scored 14 in 40 in the champions league. So if it was just that he didn't get to play many games it would be 14 in 20 or something and you'd say fair enough but it wasn't.
Equally though, many posters in this thread who were already calling Messi the GOAT in November 2022, have suddenly revised their opinion and you have to win a World Cup, even though they were already proclaiming Messi the GOAT before he did.
When you're looking for any excuse, logic goes out the window. Like claiming that he wasn't ready to play well at the World Cup in 2006 at age 21 because he 'matured late'But, but he had a bad knee in the WC during his prime, unlike say, Ronaldo who had a completely exploded one for 2 years prior to winning the WC while being top scorer.
When you're looking for any excuse, logic goes out the window. Like claiming that he wasn't ready to play well at the World Cup in 2006 at age 21 because he 'matured late'
It'S more that he hadn't scored a single champions league goal at that age, so suggesting the world cup is harder than the champions league and including 6 games when he hadn't scored in the champions and 5 games when he was 37and no longer capable of scoring in the champions league either is totally disingenuous
That is a terrible analogy and I'd suggest that you refrain from making similar ones in the future so as not to embarrass yourself.
There's no false equivalency. Of course the entire body of work is important but the World Cup is the key component of that resume when you are talking about the best of the best, more so than any other competiton and certainly more so than the Champions League. Messi won the Champions League multiple times and no one gave a crap vs Maradona's World Cup exploits. That's how it is and that's how it will always be, no matter how much you cry and scream and cover your ears and shout 'la-la-la-la, I can't hear you!!!'
Well no it's an accurate analogy. Because viewing figures is a stupid way to judge which is more important.
The most viewed game in England was the world cup final in 66, 2 million more than the euro final 2021. But thr euro semi final was more watched than the world cup semi final, so is the world cup final a bigger game than the euro final, but the euro semi final is bigger than the world cup semi final.
You're also ignoring that the international tournaments are free to air and obviously attract fans of all clubs, whereas Chelsea fans might not watch a man united Liverpool champions league final, it has nothing to do with how big w game it is.
That's also a really weird point because plenty of peoplebhave called Messi the GOAT long before he won the world cup, its only you pretending that no one suggested this until winning the world cup at 35
Even if that is true, so what? Had he not scored a single goal across all comps at that age? Was he incapable of scoring at that age? Was he incapable of having great, eye catching performances at that age? Was he incapable of assisting goals at that age? If so then he's definitely not top 2 all time because 21 is not even that young for a footballer. The excuses are just getting ridiculous now.
Messi is from Argentina. How many people from that country said he was better than Maradona? Even after winning the CL 4 times?
Re the viewing figures, Nations have rivalries too, perhaps more fraught than clubs. And yet they still all watch the World Cup final, whoever is playing. I mean you are making my points for me
You're arguing the World Cup is harder by looking at his goal ratio I'm thr Champions league and comparing it to the the world cup.
In 2006 his goal ratio in the champions league was zero
In 2022 he wasn't scoring any Champions league goals
In the three tournaments he played while he was a goalscorer he had 6 goals in 11 games. And while you might argue that Portugal are a huge nation they were always drawn in a group with a better side (Brazil 2010, Germany 2014, Spain 2018) compare that to r9 getting drawn agaisnt turkey, China and Costa rica
I don't know I've not spoken to any Argentinians recently, or ever, due to not speaking their language and not knowing any.
I'm not arguing it isn't more prestigious or rare, it's just not a better level of football, and even if 8 billion people watched it, it wouldn't make it a higher level. A higher level is where the best players with the best managers who train together year round play. It's staggering to have to explain that to someone you'd think it's as basic as 2 + 2 = 4 that best coaches plus best players plus year round training = highest level.
You're deliberately trying to conflate rarity and prestige with quality level, because you know there's no argument to suggest that international football is a better level of football, that's why you have to make your argument on viewing figures
No I'm not, I'm arguing that the World Cup is harder because he's done absolutely nothing in the World Cup. Let's take the 3 tournaments that you are desperate to focus on. He scored a hattrick against Spain right? So if you take that out, maybe the one good game he had in 5 tournaments, he scored 3 goals in the 10 other games, in the competitions when he was supposedly 'a 'goalscorer' (as if it was impossible for an attacking player to score a freaking goal at age 21 or age 37....had no trouble scoring the other day in the qualifiers at age 38, did he? Not capable of scoring in the World Cup at age 37 but capable of scoring in the Euro qualifiers at age 38. That makes sense
).Take his one good game out of his entire WC career and he has 5 goals in 20 games IIRC. Biggest stage, not very good. End of story.
R9, biggest stage, some of his best performances, even when he was past his prime
No I'm not, I'm arguing that the World Cup is harder because he's done absolutely nothing in the World Cup. Let's take the 3 tournaments that you are desperate to focus on. He scored a hattrick against Spain right? So if you take that out, maybe the one good game he had in 5 tournaments, he scored 3 goals in the 10 other games, in the competitions when he was supposedly 'a 'goalscorer' (as if it was impossible for an attacking player to score a freaking goal at age 21 or age 37....had no trouble scoring the other day in the qualifiers at age 38, did he? Not capable of scoring in the World Cup at age 37 but capable of scoring in the Euro qualifiers at age 38. That makes sense
Take his one good game out of his entire WC career and he has 5 goals in 20 games IIRC. Biggest stage, not very good. End of story.
R9, biggest stage, some of his best performances, even when he was past his prime
Not to mention the scarcity of opportunities to take part in the World Cup. It is every 4 years, with teammates you do not train with week in week out,and most likely not in super teams(unlike clubs which can gather superstars). Of course it is harder to win versus if you are in a superclub, unless you are lucky to be in a super national team like Pele or Mbappe.
Except we are not even talking about winning here, we are merely talking about performing well, and we know who has not performed well.
Glad you saw his strawman argument by the way, it is entertaining to watch this thread, the gift that keeps giving
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He'd be a dick in any era... so, no.
He's not that adored, anyway, after his last spell at the club.
He's not that adored, anyway, after his last spell at the club.
Wrong again. The highest level of football is where there is the most pressure to perform. Having superclub teammates and superclub managers makes football easier for the individual player, not harder.
Where is there more pressure to perform, the Champions League or the World Cup?
I would say the World Cup is tougher. There is a lot more pressure on a world cup than a Champions League due to its scarcity; you only have about three chances in your career to play in one.
The World Cup is the biggest competition without question. A lot of players would likely give up their club trophies in exchange for it, so desperation to win it will be there, also.
The World Cup is the biggest competition without question. A lot of players would likely give up their club trophies in exchange for it, so desperation to win it will be there, also.
The WC is only tougher for a few reasons. Its only every 4 years. Your chance of winning it minimal unless you were born in the right time and place to have quality team mates. Pressure is bigger for sure, because of rare it is to win it and the whole world is watching. None football fans watch it to support their nation. If Messi had opted to play for Spain like he could have done, I believe any ideas he couldnt do it for his country would have been destroyed from 2008 and onwards. Same with Ronaldo put him in the greatest national teams of his era, I have no doubt he would have had a WC.
This thread is wild.
No but I have absolutely no doubt you’d have been waxing lyrical about a hat trick in a group game against a rapidly declining Spanish side that included a penalty and a howler from De Gea, those will go completely unnoticed by you all the while you’ll try and chalk R9’s more impressive hat-trick up as nothing but poor goalkeeping.
I think you’re making yourself look really bad here to be honest mate. It’s fanboy stuff in the extreme, it’s why you’re sitting there on your own fighting that lonely battle. And yes, I’m sure your boy was really up against it in Spain playing for poor little Madrid who are always hard done by and never get things their own way (that’s sarcasm because the general belief is that the very opposite is true).
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Oh sweet summer child
The main take I'm getting so far is that in order to justify Cristiano Ronaldo's bad performances on the biggest stage, context is everything. He was in a bad team (which nevertheless was top 10 in FIFA ranking practically the entire time he has been active), had only a couple of tournaments at his peak (same as Ronaldo), had a bad coach (Ronaldo had like seven of those) etc.
Nevertheless, when we see Ronaldo performances apparently only stats matter and context is not allowed in the room. Playing less CL doesn't matter. Being harder to even qualify for CL doesn't matter. Injuries don't matter. The absence of superteams to support a superstar striker doesn't matter. Goal inflation doesn't matter. The eye test doesn't matter. Just plain pure stats. That's why you keep being called out.
PS: That hat trick against Spain was great. But in the end it was inconsequential. Portugal didn't qualify thanks to that, Spain wasn't eliminated due to that. And both teams were out in the next round, to "non CL standard teams" like Uruguay and Russia.
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The highest level is the one with the best players and best coaches. How come r9 managed a goal a game at the world cup post injury but 1in 3 in the champions league. Why did playing for the galacticos who'd won 2 in the previous 3 champions leagues not make it easier for him?
Yeah, this discussion without context is ridiculous.
Dybala has won more Serie A titles with Juventus than Platini, and nobody thinks he is better than Platini, the quality of Serie A Dybala played in was the worst in the history of italian football. Same era where Ciro Immobile scored more goals than Van Basten, and I don't think anyone aside from Lazio fans think Immobile is a top player.
Stats are good, but without context they are useless.
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Oh sweet summer child
The main take I'm getting so far is that in order to justify Cristiano Ronaldo's bad performances on the biggest stage, context is everything. He was in a bad team (which nevertheless was top 10 in FIFA ranking practically the entire time he has been active), had only a couple of tournaments at his peak (same as Ronaldo), had a bad coach (Ronaldo had like seven of those) etc.
Nevertheless, when we see Ronaldo performances apparently only stats matter and context is not allowed in the room. Playing less CL doesn't matter. Being harder to even qualify for CL doesn't matter. Injuries don't matter. The absence of superteams to support a superstar striker doesn't matter. Goal inflation doesn't matter. The eye test doesn't matter. Just plain pure stats. That's why you keep being called out.
PS: That hat trick against Spain was great. But in the end it was inconsequential. Portugal didn't qualify thanks to that, Spain wasn't eliminated due to that. And both teams were out in the next round, to "non CL standard teams" like Uruguay and Russia.
No my opinion is that international tournaments are not the best judge of quality. They take place over a month so form or niggles play a far bigger role. It's also a very small sample size to judge from. You're playing with players you've barely trained with, under worse managers. It's artificial difficulty like if you were playing with ankle weights. There's lots of reasons why a player might play better at club level than international level and vice versa. But for the fanboys on here, crisitano not doing well at the world cup proves its harder but r9 doing better at World Cup than the Champions League doesn't prove anything
And Platini scored a lot of goals as a nr. 10 in one of the toughest defensive leagues in history.
It's fanboy stuff to act as if crisitano not performing well in 11 games at his peak defines his whole career but come up with a million excuses for r9.
Also fanbiy stuff to ignore Barca actually paying the referees. But as I've said before half your posts on here are running down Cristiano, and a lot of them before he left us the second time, so it's a bit rich to act as if uou don't have an agenda
Real Madrid fecked up getting rid of Makelele, that's where the downfall comes from.
And the signing of Beckham was unnecessary
I've tried to give context at every single turn. Ronaldo (and messi's) superteams score less without them than Barca did in the 90s without r9. But this was just ignored. The average goals per game being the same in 97 serie a as 2010s la liga was also ignored
Yeah I get that, but to act as though 14 in 40 is anything other than disappointingly is crazy. Now of course there are valid reasons for this, just as looking at cr7s world cup record will look disappointing but there is context (like them always being the second seed in their group, him only playing 11 games at his peak and having an injury in 2014), but lots in this thread are happy to recognise the context for r9 and ignore itt for cr7 and funnily enough it happens to be the same posters that are always running Ronaldo down in other threads
All reasons why the World Cup is so difficult and why the pressure is so great. Performing under those constraints is surely the mark of a great player, no?
Well no, playing well under those conditions are a mixture of luck, quality of your teammates, the quality of the opposition and yes of course talent as well. But, while obviously performances at these tournaments shouldn't be disregarded, it should be kept in mind that it's usually 10-15 games over a career and should be weighted accordingly. I mean say England had won the euros, it wouldn't affect my opinion of Harry kane, I wouldn't think he's any better than his premier league performances show, or that Maguire playing well for England makes him a great player, I judge him on what he does for us and couldn't give a shit what he does at international level.
Im quite up front about the fact I don’t particularly like him though. I think the way he treated the club and his general obsession with himself and his own records has always been quite unbecoming. Wouldn’t let that stop me acknowledging him as one of the best footballers of his generation and a ruthless scorer though.
Meanwhile you’re spending what must be a good portion of your life online, cherry picking statistics and moving the goalposts because you’re not prepared to accept the reality as it is and as the majority see it. You’ve even taken to trying to tell people about a player they saw and you didn’t. But carry on talking about conspiracies, and injuries and secret agendas, and all this other made up stuff if it helps you to believe in the lie! I mean whatever makes you happy man. It’s a bit boring for me now though.
Yeah but you seem to dislike him so much that like half your posts are about him in some way, running him down. I post on plenty of other stuff and only spending so much time in here because people keep quoting me, running down ronaldo makes up like half of your posts. I don't think the majority do see r9 as a better player than crisitano though.
I'm not cherrypicking anything, I've said I don't value international football as highly, but because every argument revolves around Cristiano for you, this can only be because ronaldo hasn't done that well, rather than international football usually being duller, taking annoying breaks during the season for pointless qualifiers when it's basically always the same teams at the finals, even more pointless friendlies, and the excitement once every 2 years of a major tournament which given how much it breaks up regular seasons really isn't worth it.
It has nothing to do with Cristiano, which is why you'll notice I've not tried to use his euro win as justification for anything, because I don't rate it as highly as club football, full stop, I wouldn't want us to sign a player off the back of a good world cup etc
Cliche but the greatest players of any era would be great players in any era, in my opinion.
Irony at it’s absolute finest eh
Right up there with criticising me for what I post while he’s off obsessing over Barca and Ronaldo in threads about Marcus Rashford too.
Such a stupid argument, I can't even summon the strength to respond anymore. Sometimes I wonder if you do this deliberately and are just quietly laughing at everyone who tries to engage you seriously.....
Said dude did the same at the Rashford and Pep threads. Got to say he has a ton of time and a huge lack of self awareness to argue with easily 30 other posters using his arsenal of logical fallicy techniques
Said dude did the same at the Rashford and Pep threads. Got to say he has a ton of time and a huge lack of self awareness to argue with easily 30 other posters using his arsenal of logical fallicy techniques
Especially because in the one thread, he argues Pep is only so successful because of super teams and in the next, he basically denies their existence
Next level hypocrisyEspecially because in the one thread, he argues Pep is only so successful because of super teams and in the next, he basically denies their existence
Ya in that thread, he said Pep never exceeded his expectations, i asked if winning all aka 6 trophies in 1 year is not exceeding expectations? After a series of shifting goal posts, he finally admitted to , yes for that one instance Pep exceeded his expectations, but Mou, Klopp and Simeone did it (exceeding his expectations) more than once.
He also downplayed the sixtruple because 2 of the six are small trophies, and of course he did not reply when I asked him if it is so easy, why only one manager in the history of football has achieved it.
Similar to R9 and CR7, he assigned unrealistic expectations to Pep (R9), while forgiving many of Mou/Klopp(CR7) underachievements due to context, circumstances and what not.
I will just say believe he is taught well in the school of logical fallacies, to be able to apply so many of those in 3 threads
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