Woodward (old thread)

[Miscemayl]

I'm saying nothing of the sort. You're basically advocating an Arsene-Wenger-on-steroids transfer policy. Which is a rubbish idea, just ask Wenger. Anyway, how do you identify a 'potentially world class young player', for every position, who still wants to come to you in the knowledge you'll ship him off as soon as you either find out he's brilliant or find out he's not?

I mean take the great forwards in the world today - Cavani, Falcao were unheard of whereas the likes of Benzema, Neymar cost ridiculous money. The likes of Van Persie, Suarez, and Ibrahimovic were spoilt brats / trouble makers who managers took a punt on but it certainly wasn't without risk.

It's exactly what Drummer is accusing Glazers of already doing.

Another flaw with this idea is that a key ingredient of it is having a manager that can polish potential into performance. Having a team of kids, regardless of potential, to challenge for trophies isn't an easy task. If it was, the class of 92 wouldn't be that special.

So before you can implement this policy, you need find a manager like SAF. Not exactly an easy task.

 

[Empire]

All top teams already attempt this.

Problem is, identifying world class potential is hard, and getting them cheap is even harder.

The idea is to spend the transfer budget on them, another poster above who first suggested the idea said Ferguson spent about 50m on average on transfers over the last decade, if so, imagine if that money was spent on two players like Shaw, Rooney, Ronaldo or De Gea who had obvious world class potential as opposed to a lot of these squad players that never.

So if you can get them cheap then great but there is not anything wrong with paying up to £30m for them.

I'm saying nothing of the sort. You're basically advocating an Arsene-Wenger-on-steroids transfer policy. Which is a rubbish idea, just ask Wenger. Anyway, how do you identify a 'potentially world class young player', for every position, who still wants to come to you in the knowledge you'll ship him off as soon as you either find out he's brilliant or find out he's not?

I mean take the great forwards in the world today - Cavani, Falcao were unheard of whereas the likes of Benzema, Neymar cost ridiculous money. The likes of Van Persie, Suarez, and Ibrahimovic were spoilt brats / trouble makers who managers took a punt on but it certainly wasn't without risk.

You won't ship him off unless you have the Pogba - Vidal scenario, where it would make sense to develop Pogba now and sell Vidal using the funds to get players in other positions.

Also, my post was in response to somebody who suggested since Ferguson averaged about £50m a year in his last decade (according to another poster) imagine if we used that to buy only players like Rooney, Ronaldo, De Gea and Shaw instead of a Valencia or Young.

Arsene Wenger doesn't really spend £30m on world class level potential teenagers. So if you think (like Shaw) £30m is worth it then do it, if you can get them for cheaper like Ronaldo or even cheaper like Januzaj, also do that but as a transfer policy work very hard signing players with world class level potential. A Valencia, Young, Buutner, Bebe, Owen, Oberton, Diouf, Berbatov, Tosic, Alan Smith, Kleberson, Djemba-Djemba etc. would not fall into this category.

I think a lot of our squad players were cheaper and Ferguson liked his big squad. I'm not sure if we need as big of a squad as we have though and we could benefit from the quality over quantity approach. I think as a general rule, teenagers are good to target because you get so many years out of them, you end up getting value for money even if they don't achieve the potential but otherwise only sign a player if he has the potential in the manager's opinion to become world class.

 

[Empire]

It's exactly what Drummer is accusing Glazers of already doing.

Another flaw with this idea is that a key ingredient of it is having a manager that can polish potential into performance. Having a team of kids, regardless of potential, to challenge for trophies isn't an easy task. If it was, the class of 92 wouldn't be that special.

So before you can implement this policy, you need find a manager like SAF. Not exactly an easy task.

LvG?

 

[TwoSheds]

The only reason Juventus might sell Vidal is if they don't believe theyve got a prayer of winning the Champions League. Selling a world class player in his prime - unless they've decided they're leaving and you've got no choice - shows a lack of ambition.

 

[Revan]

The only reason Juventus might sell Vidal is if they don't believe theyve got a prayer of winning the Champions League. Selling a world class player in his prime - unless they've decided they're leaving and you've got no choice - shows a lack of ambition.

Juventus has always sold players fo the right money. Usually their working logic is different from other big clubs. They have already 3 very good midfielders other than Vidal on their team so if they think that with Vidal money they can improve other areas of squad then they will sell him. Also, clubs in Italy don't have money that much and Juventus' wage ratio to revenue is way higher than ours, Madrid, Barca etc so they maybe need to compensate a bit.

Regardless how good a player Vidal is, I think that an offer of 50m pounds will make the deal happen. The problem is that likely there will be a big competition for him and I am not sure if the club is ready to spend that much for him. He is a very explosive midfielder so I think that he has only 5 years as an absolute top player. Consider 200k/week wages and for 5 years we'll spend on him 60m on wages and 50m on transfer which is 22m for year. A lot of money.

However, if the club has the money and want to make an immediate solution, then I doubt that we can find a better player for it. If we sign him, I will be very happy and I think that it will give us a very good chance of winning the title immediately on this season.

 

[Empire]

The only reason Juventus might sell Vidal is if they don't believe theyve got a prayer of winning the Champions League. Selling a world class player in his prime - unless they've decided they're leaving and you've got no choice - shows a lack of ambition.

I did say to strengthen their team, as in, they would continue to dominate domestically but have the money to invest in other areas and in doing so become a much better team. Pogba - Marchisio isn't a bad central midfield pairing, it's better than Carrick - Cleverley.

I would happily sell Rooney if we got an offer above £30m, I don't think it shows a lack of ambition if we want to build a stronger team by investing that money in other areas such as a centre back or central midfield or even a winger.

 

[TwoSheds]

If we sold Rooney for £30m it wouldn't be to strengthen the team in other areas, it would be because we no longer thought he was a good fit for our team. I'm not saying Juventus won't or shouldn't sell Vidal by the way. I'm saying that if they do it's a symptom of them not being a top team. You would never catch Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Man Utd, Chelsea etc doing that.

 

[ADJUDICATOR]

A passive foolish bystander who does his job without ever exceeding expectation.

 

[Anderson18]

sold Büttner for a profit. He is having an outstanding week.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Finish this sentence...

"If Woody pulls off the Vidal signing..."

 

[Buchan]

A passive foolish bystander who does his job without ever exceeding expectation.

This is absolute nonsense. How do you - or I - know how well Woodward is doing in his role?

Last summer's disappointment can well be explained by having a new manager who legally couldn't start work until July 1st (you can thank the Glazers for that) and he was also new to his role himself. He did quite well in January by signing Mata and dealing with Chelsea, who themselves were very keen to sign Rooney and you would expect they'd dig their heels in a little over that. Woodward's also played a blinder this week by sealing both Shaw and Herrera, and also selling Buttner for a profit.

I don't see how he's merited the slander you've thrust upon him here.

 

[Kill 'em all]

So it really was dithering Moyes that fecked up our summer last year. This was his biggest test and he passed with flying colors. Woodward made a profit on Buttner and strengthened our 2 weakest positions in a matter of days.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Finish this sentence...

"If Woody pulls off the Vidal signing..."

"...I will ask him when Sanchez is signing as well."

 

[Devil_forever]

This is absolute nonsense. How do you - or I - know how well Woodward is doing in his role?

Last summer's disappointment can well be explained by having a new manager who legally couldn't start work until July 1st (you can thank the Glazers for that) and he was also new to his role himself. He did quite well in January by signing Mata and dealing with Chelsea, who themselves were very keen to sign Rooney and you would expect they'd dig their heels in a little over that. Woodward's also played a blinder this week by sealing both Shaw and Herrera, and also selling Buttner for a profit.

I don't see how he's merited the slander you've thrust upon him here.

I've defended Woodward in this very thread but to say he's done great is giving him too much credit IMHO.

Mata: whilst he's a great player, £37m for a player who was out of favour and benched at his previous club. That's probably around fair value for him, but when you consider that chelsea clearly didn't want or need him, any real good negotiator could and should have got him for a fee smaller than that.

Herrera: Paid his buyout clause

Shaw: third or fourth most expensive defender of all time and reportedly on 100k a week. That's not a deal that screams great negotiator by any means.

I think we'll probably see how good woodward is, when the nike deal is announced, if he is indeed the lead negotiator for that deal. As far as I'm aware, Richarld Arnold is our commercial director, which would imply that he probably does the bulk of the negotiating for it.

 

[TwoSheds]

Baically though, due to our poor first XI options over the last few years we've had to fork out a bit over the odds to get the players we wanted. If we can get a couple more then we should be able to go back to being able to pick and choose a little more.

 

[Invictus]

FFS get on it Woody. Chile are outta the Cup..

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

He's starting to make amends for last seasons disaster but I'll reserve judgement until the window closes, we're in need of another 2-3 quality signings yet.

 

[Gladiator]

Woodward learned for his mistakes, Moyes didn't.

That's how I'd like think about it too

 

[tombombadil]

Wow, good old Ed not just sealing two big money moves but selling an unneeded player for a profit. He's really on a roll now.

 

[Hal9000]

That's how I'd like think about it too

Well Moyes did not really have a chance to rectify his transfer window mistakes. Who knows what it would be like with him here still. How ever, Herrera was targeted by Moyes last season and he was the one who started thing rolling with Shaw. If Moyes would still be here, i would even suggest we'd have Kroos here by now as well.

 

[Plugsy]

Herrera wasn't really targeted by Moyes, he merely agreed to scout him for an additional year when the offer was made to buy him last summer. He inherited him as a target, dithered for a bit, then kicked the decision into the long grass, despite the fact he received comprehensive scouting reports from the previous 'regieme' and could have spent the summer looking intensively at video tape of him that was no doubt available, but chose not to. Far from having these signings and more already in the bank, I think it's doubtful we wouldn't have dithered until mid August and then randomly went back in again for Leighton Baines

 

[Gladiator]

Well Moyes did not really have a chance to rectify his transfer window mistakes. Who knows what it would be like with him here still. How ever, Herrera was targeted by Moyes last season and he was the one who started thing rolling with Shaw. If Moyes would still be here, i would even suggest we'd have Kroos here by now as well.

But that's his own fault not so? Actually Herrera was targeted first by Ferguson after the Bilbao game but Moyes resurrected the interest yet was coy on buying him last summer. Hunter said he was the point person in this deal for Moyes and stated in a recent article that Moyes was cautious about buying Herrera and that Herrera was really taken by his experience at Old Trafford as well as the prospect of working with Louis van Gaal. This isn't to say he wouldn't have signed under Moyes but that LVG's presence was seemingly a factor in this deal as well.

Even if Kroos signed under Moyes, what would that have meant for us? I don't really know. It's easy to speculate but that's all we'd be able to do.

 

[Sb_16]

Now, make us some money on Anderson.

 

[Hal9000]

But that's his own fault not so? Actually Herrera was targeted first by Ferguson after the Bilbao game but Moyes resurrected the interest yet was coy on buying him last summer. Hunter said he was the point person in this deal for Moyes and stated in a recent article that Moyes was cautious about buying Herrera and that Herrera was really taken by his experience at Old Trafford as well as the prospect of working with Louis van Gaal. This isn't to say he wouldn't have signed under Moyes but that LVG's presence was seemingly a factor in this deal as well.

Even if Kroos signed under Moyes, what would that have meant for us? I don't really know. It's easy to speculate but that's all we'd be able to do.

Maybe it is own fault. We will probably never know what happened last season. Some people blame Moyes because it was rumoured he was dithering and wanting to know more about players we already had lined up. Some people blame Woody because it was rumoured that he was asking Moyes to justify in detail each of his targets + to busy focusing on trying to make a statement by going after Ronaldo/Bale/Fabregas.

All i was stating is that we can't make a statement like 'Woody has learned, Moyes hasn't' because Moyes is not here so we don't know. I would argue that there must of been a lot of groundwork done to sign two players and for LVG to ok those transfers. It's been establish, by reliable journo's, that a deal for Kroos was in place and pulled. Then you also have the noises from Moyes himself that he was planning for this summer, back up by the fact he was popping up all over Europe at random games throughout the season.

Personally, i don't think LVG has changed much around the signing of Herrara and Shaw, i think we would still have them if Moyes was here. I suspect Kroos would be here as well.

As far as i'm concerned last season transfer were as much as Woody's fault as it was Moyes. To busy trying to make himself with virtually impossible signings, allowed himself to be played around by Fabregas, all the whilst trying to be chums with the media by briefing them on pretty much everything.

 

[OneUnited24]

Personally, i don't think LVG has changed much around the signing of Herrara and Shaw, i think we would still have them if Moyes was here. I suspect Kroos would be here as well.

As far as i'm concerned last season transfer were as much as Woody's fault as it was Moyes. To busy trying to make himself with virtually impossible signings, allowed himself to be played around by Fabregas, all the whilst trying to be chums with the media by briefing them on pretty much everything.

I guess we will never know because Moyes isnt here but according to a lot of different journos the players that were talked about in the papers last year were only a fraction of the players we were looking at, all of which turned us down. Now i'm not saying it was because we had Moyes in charge but i dont think it added to the glamour of playing for United. Had Moyes been here i am sure Kroos would have joined and would be on Rooney type wages. TBH i am biased because i actually didnt like Moyes because of how much he bent over for Rooney when i think he should have been sold

I still dont think Woodward did much wrong last season, at the end of the day Moyes had the final say in matters. If Moyes put a list together and expected all those players would come its hardly Woodwards job to tell him "Dude we should look elsewhere". Fabregas was a pie in the sky dream (especially as Barca just had a new manager who was going to want to keep Fabregas) and yes we can blame Woodward for spending too much time on it he can only go for targets Moyes/our scouts have told him too.

 

[Gladiator]

Maybe it is own fault. We will probably never know what happened last season. Some people blame Moyes because it was rumoured he was dithering and wanting to know more about players we already had lined up. Some people blame Woody because it was rumoured that he was asking Moyes to justify in detail each of his targets + to busy focusing on trying to make a statement by going after Ronaldo/Bale/Fabregas.

All i was stating is that we can't make a statement like 'Woody has learned, Moyes hasn't' because Moyes is not here so we don't know. I would argue that there must of been a lot of groundwork done to sign two players and for LVG to ok those transfers. It's been establish, by reliable journo's, that a deal for Kroos was in place and pulled. Then you also have the noises from Moyes himself that he was planning for this summer, back up by the fact he was popping up all over Europe at random games throughout the season.

Personally, i don't think LVG has changed much around the signing of Herrara and Shaw, i think we would still have them if Moyes was here. I suspect Kroos would be here as well.

As far as i'm concerned last season transfer were as much as Woody's fault as it was Moyes. To busy trying to make himself with virtually impossible signings, allowed himself to be played around by Fabregas, all the whilst trying to be chums with the media by briefing them on pretty much everything.

I see what you mean. I agree on the pointing fingers part. I feel they were both at fault last summer in one way or another. Trying to act otherwise just seems silly to me. You make a great point about Moyes learning from his mistakes. To be honest when I first read your post, I was thinking in the sense of throughout the course of the season. He didn't seem to be learning from his mistakes when it came to tactics, game-management etc. But yes with transfers cant really say for sure if Moyes learned from his mistakes. He certainly wanted to make it known that he was working hard on targets. But I think you realize sometimes what's revealed in public is PR and self-serving agendas

Personally I'm doubtful about the Herrera one under Moyes because I think he would have been satisfied with Kroos. Plus, he was more coy on buying him whereas LVG just gave his blessing. The way Hunter seemed to spin it, the Herrera interest didnt really pick up again until Ed and LVG met about targets and then Ed continued to work on the deal.

I just get the impression Moyes is more cautious where LVG just says "get him" and leaves it at that.

 

[Gladiator]

This is absolute nonsense. How do you - or I - know how well Woodward is doing in his role?

Last summer's disappointment can well be explained by having a new manager who legally couldn't start work until July 1st (you can thank the Glazers for that) and he was also new to his role himself. He did quite well in January by signing Mata and dealing with Chelsea, who themselves were very keen to sign Rooney and you would expect they'd dig their heels in a little over that. Woodward's also played a blinder this week by sealing both Shaw and Herrera, and also selling Buttner for a profit.

I don't see how he's merited the slander you've thrust upon him here.

If I'm not mistaken, didn Jose Mourinho and Pellegrini also officially start work on July 1?

 

[OneUnited24]

This is absolute nonsense. How do you - or I - know how well Woodward is doing in his role?

Last summer's disappointment can well be explained by having a new manager who legally couldn't start work until July 1st (you can thank the Glazers for that) and he was also new to his role himself. He did quite well in January by signing Mata and dealing with Chelsea, who themselves were very keen to sign Rooney and you would expect they'd dig their heels in a little over that. Woodward's also played a blinder this week by sealing both Shaw and Herrera, and also selling Buttner for a profit.

I don't see how he's merited the slander you've thrust upon him here.

The same Mata who Chelsea were desperate to sell and player himself who wanted to go? We cant thank the Glazers for something that all clubs would do - "Hey lets spend £4-5m to Everton to release a manager who we can get for nothing in a few weeks time". Also Moyes went on holiday for most of June so he was hardly going to take over then. Plus starting late didn't seem to affect Jose or Pep.

So how do you explain our current managers ability to work in a different country with a different team and us signing players?

EDIT PS lol at using Rooney as proof that Moyes was great with signings, we were put over a barrel to get him to sign a new contract which at the time made him the highest paid player ever. And if i recall after signing his form dipped massively

 

[JohnDoe]

Ed's the fecking man, that's what he is. I knew it from the moment I saw this picture for the first time

Spoiler

That's the look of a man who gets shit done.

 

[Globule]

If we sold Rooney for £30m it wouldn't be to strengthen the team in other areas, it would be because we no longer thought he was a good fit for our team. I'm not saying Juventus won't or shouldn't sell Vidal by the way. I'm saying that if they do it's a symptom of them not being a top team. You would never catch Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Man Utd, Chelsea etc doing that.

Ronaldo?

 

[ravi2]

The only reason Juventus might sell Vidal is if they don't believe theyve got a prayer of winning the Champions League. Selling a world class player in his prime - unless they've decided they're leaving and you've got no choice - shows a lack of ambition.

When Juve sold Zidane to Madrid for around 60m they used the money to buy Thuram, Buffon and Nedved....and went on to dominate Serie A for the next few years.

 

[TwoSheds]

When Juve sold Zidane to Madrid for around 60m they used the money to buy Thuram, Buffon and Nedved....and went on to dominate Serie A for the next few years.

Yep. Did they win the Champions League though? Do you think if they'd had Turam, Buffon, Nedved and Zidane they might have done? I do.

 

[moses]

Yep. Did they win the Champions League though? Do you think if they'd had Turam, Buffon, Nedved and Zidane they might have done? I do.

You missed the point, it was either or due to finances.

 

[TwoSheds]

You missed the point, it was either or due to finances.

That's the point I'm making, the really big clubs who have ambitions to win the Champions League wouldn't give a feck about the money, they only sell if they're either forced to or they don't want the player any more. Advocating a 'Juventus-style' policy for United is stupid, we don't need the money from selling Rooney so unless we don't want him what's the point selling?

 

[moses]

That's the point I'm making, the really big clubs who have ambitions to win the Champions League wouldn't give a feck about the money, they only sell if they're either forced to or they don't want the player any more. Advocating a 'Juventus-style' policy for United is stupid, we don't need the money from selling Rooney so unless we don't want him what's the point selling?

You can't just not give a feck about money. Fiscal irresponsibility doesn't make you European Champions, it makes you Leeds.

 

[JohnDoe]

Yep. Did they win the Champions League though? Do you think if they'd had Turam, Buffon, Nedved and Zidane they might have done? I do.

No, they lost the final on penalties in 2003, knocking out Barca and Zidane's Real Madrid on their way there, which proves they had no European ambitions at all.

 

[Shamwow]

For those that are saying the Mata transfer was easy and Woodward shouldn't get any credit for it, are you forgetting about the fecking helicopter? So epic.

 

[Midnight1811]

Well done Ed, you followed up on deals that were in place for some time. Credit to him and Moyes for that. The problem with last year, is both weren't risk takers. They wanted things to go right, which they didn't, so decided on checking on players first. Since that window both Moyes and Ed had done there HW, and had prepped for the summer, as discussed already many times in the past season.

Now all we need is to get back into the CL, so that can't be an excuse for players not joining us.

 

[Amir]

I see what you mean. I agree on the pointing fingers part. I feel they were both at fault last summer in one way or another. Trying to act otherwise just seems silly to me. You make a great point about Moyes learning from his mistakes. To be honest when I first read your post, I was thinking in the sense of throughout the course of the season. He didn't seem to be learning from his mistakes when it came to tactics, game-management etc. But yes with transfers cant really say for sure if Moyes learned from his mistakes. He certainly wanted to make it known that he was working hard on targets. But I think you realize sometimes what's revealed in public is PR and self-serving agendas

I just get the impression Moyes is more cautious where LVG just says "get him" and leaves it at that.

The problem with the Moyes/Woodward thing is that Woodward was a complete football novice. Moyes, while new to the level in which Manchester United operate, was a manager with good experience. He should have known better. But I think his cautious side got the best of him and he didn't have the confidence to make players he didn't know from every angle his first United signings. And one player he did want, Fellaini, was someone he also didn't want to make his first signing. It all made for a very awkward situation in which we chased a very limited amount of players for most of the summer and only late on broaden our horizons. When you read how cautious Moyes was with Herrera even in last August, it gives you a hint of the situation.

Van Gaal probably feels more free to make decisions based upon scouting reports and the views of whatever contacts he has in the game.

 

[Sied]

For those that are saying the Mata transfer was easy and Woodward shouldn't get any credit for it, are you forgetting about the fecking helicopter? So epic.

Can't believe they didn't get a shot of Herrera getting out of the private jet. Wasted opportunity.