William Carvalho

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it very much looks like we are serious about getting both Carvalho and Vidal. That will set us up well for midfield. Then we need a CB and cover for Shaw...if Evra is going to Juve...perhaps as part of the Vidal transfer.

The wingers? De Maria has been mentioned so much...also Sanchez. think Nani and Young are out then.
 
Devil may care said:
There is zero evidence that he is any better than Carrick in a role that Carrick was excellent in the season before last and we still struggled in midfield. He has never played at the same level and has never played against the pace and physicality of the PL, neither has Herrera for that matter but Herrera has at least competed in Europe against us and as part of a very good U21 Spanish national side.
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Well said. This is a huge risk.
 
Devil may care said:
There is zero evidence that he is any better than Carrick in a role that Carrick was excellent in the season before last and we still struggled in midfield. He has never played at the same level and has never played against the pace and physicality of the PL, neither has Herrera for that matter but Herrera has at least competed in Europe against us and as part of a very good U21 Spanish national side.
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The evidence is in his attribute. He is physically strong, great at reading the game and making tackles. Moreover, he is smart in possession and great at positioning himself. Carrick on the otherhand makes up 3/5 of the attributes aforementioned and his best years are coming to an end. You may be right that he might not adapt, but none of us can predict the future. Matic who recently came from Benefica is doing very well at Chelsea, so their is a good chance that he can succeed in the bpl.
 
Red Dreams said:
it very much looks like we are serious about getting both Carvalho and Vidal. That will set us up well for midfield. Then we need a CB and cover for Shaw...if Evra is going to Juve...perhaps as part of the Vidal transfer.

The wingers? De Maria has been mentioned so much...also Sanchez. think Nani and Young are out then.
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Di Maria should be as much important as Vidal. Manchester United without proper wings is like Luis Suarez without his teeth.
 
Amadaeus said:
The evidence is in his attribute. He is physically strong, great at reading the game and making tackles. Moreover, he is smart in possession and great at positioning himself. Carrick on the otherhand makes up 3/5 of the attributes aforementioned and his best years are coming to an end. You may be right that he might not adapt, but none of us can predict the future. Matic who recently came from Benefica is doing very well at Chelsea, so their is a good chance that he can succeed in the bpl.
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Carrick is good at 4 of those 5 things and while he may not be as strong he is vastly more experienced and attuned to our league and as I said even with him playing well we still struggled in midfield. Matic had more seasons of playing well under his belt than Carvalho has as well and isn't been priced nearly as highly. To me I'd only want to see Carvalho here if we are moving to a 3 man midfield, I wouldn't fancy him in a 2 man midfield in the PL.
 
Devil may care said:
Carrick is good at 4 of those 5 things and while he may not be as strong he is vastly more experienced and attuned to our league and as I said even with him playing well we still struggled in midfield. Matic had more seasons of playing well under his belt than Carvalho has as well and isn't been priced nearly as highly. To me I'd only want to see Carvalho here if we are moving to a 3 man midfield, I wouldn't fancy him in a 2 man midfield in the PL.
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Carrick is an average tackler, making it 3. He is good at reading the game/intercepting, which makes up for that attribute. On your next point, Carvalho is rated more highly than Matic and as such comes the high recognition/evaluation.

And lastly, a 4-2-1-3 is an iteration of a three man midfield, without the unnecessary need for two box to box players. It balance itself out by having some form of natural width, a true no.10 and a midfield partnership that complement each other with one player their to anchor/add composure, while the others is their for workrate/dynamism.

Finding the right balance is a step in the right direction towards finding the right formation :)
 
I personally would be very pleased if we somehow managed to get this guy. Young, exactly the position we need, great physique, confident on the ball. Sounds pretty good to me.

Possibly a better fit than Vidal, because we already signed a player similar to him.
 
Amadaeus said:
Carrick is an average tackler, making it 3. He is good at reading the game/intercepting, which makes up for that attribute. On your next point, Carvalho is rated more highly than Matic and as such comes the high recognition/evaluation.

And lastly, a 4-2-1-3 is an iteration of a three man midfield, without the unnecessary need for two box to box players. It balance itself out by having some form of natural width, a true no.10 and a midfield partnership that complement each other with one player their to anchor/add composure, while the others is their for workrate/dynamism.

Finding the right balance is a step in the right direction towards finding the right formation :)
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Carrick is a decent enough tackler and as you say he doesn't need to do it as often because he reads and intercepts so well, plus he has been doing it a a far higher level than Carvalho. Who decides who is more highly rated? To me it just seems that Sporting have a big buyout clause in his contract and that is why the price is so silly, nothing to do with who is the better player.

It's not really a 3 man midfield though when you play with a #10, it's a 2 man midfield with a free role player in between the 2 man midfield and the front 3. If we want to play with that then we'd be much better with Herrera and Vidal in behind covering all the grass than someone like Carvalho who lacks the movement, sticking him in a 2 man midfield will leave us with all the same issues we had with Carrick in there, playing with a slow and minimally mobile DM is best when you have a true 3 man midfield, not a 2 man midfield with a #10 in front of them.
 
Devil may care said:
Carrick is a decent enough tackler and as you say he doesn't need to do it as often because he reads and intercepts so well, plus he has been doing it a a far higher level than Carvalho. Who decides who is more highly rated? To me it just seems that Sporting have a big buyout clause in his contract and that is why the price is so silly, nothing to do with who is the better player.
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As such, my first point still stand that it is still 3/5 attributes that Carrick. The overall consensus decide who is highly rated. I guess, you have not seen much of Carvalho to realize that he is one of the most exciting product to come out of the Portuguese league since Ronaldo and for a holding midfielder he has managed to take home 4 player of the month award.

Devil may care said:
It's not really a 3 man midfield though when you play with a #10, it's a 2 man midfield with a free role player in between the 2 man midfield and the front 3. If we want to play with that then we'd be much better with Herrera and Vidal in behind covering all the grass than someone like Carvalho who lacks the movement, sticking him in a 2 man midfield will leave us with all the same issues we had with Carrick in there, playing with a slow and minimally mobile DM is best when you have a true 3 man midfield, not a 2 man midfield with a #10 in front of them.
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It is an iteration of a three man because the number 10 is playing as an attacking midfielder, meaning he has the license to roam into the midfield and distribute from their. If playing with two out and out strikers, it becomes a strict two man midfield.

How in the world is vidal and Herrera a balanced pairing? Who shields the defense? Both are attack oriented and prefer going forward. Carvalho is much more balance than having the two you mentioned because he adds composure and protection to the midfield. The one you suggested has no structure and is semblance to the Anderson/Cleverley all out attacking gameplan we used in the beginning of the 2011/2012 season. Carvalho composure complement Herrera work ethic, which complement Mata playmaking ability.
 
Amadaeus said:
As such, my first point still stand that it is still 3/5 attributes that Carrick. The overall consensus decide who is highly rated. I guess, you have not seen much of Carvalho to realize that he is one of the most exciting product to come out of the Portuguese league since Ronaldo and for a holding midfielder he has managed to take home 4 player of the month award.
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It doesn't stand if the reason for less tackles is because his positional play doesn't require him to make as many as Carvalho. You are right I haven't seen as much of him as it seems you have, but the times I have seen him I didn't see anything incredibly special to warrant such a massive fee, and in truth the league he is playing in is very weak.

It is an iteration of a three man because the number 10 is playing as an attacking midfielder, meaning he has the license to roam into the midfield and distribute from their. If playing with two out and out strikers, it becomes a strict two man midfield.

How in the world is vidal and Herrera a balanced pairing? Who shields the defense? Both are attack oriented and prefer going forward. Carvalho is much more balance than having the two you mentioned because he adds composure and protection to the midfield. The one you suggested has no structure and is semblance to the Anderson/Cleverley all out attacking gameplan we used in the beginning of the 2011/2012 season. Carvalho composure complement Herrera work ethic, which complement Mata playmaking ability.
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It all depends on how much work the #10 puts in when it comes to helping out the 2 man midfield and winning the ball, floating around passing from a little deeper doesn't make him a CM or add to the defensive stability of the midfield.

Did you ever see us play with Keane and Robson or Keane and Ince? this idea that you have to play with a DM is born from Europe but is not a necessity. Herrera and Vidal can both attack yes, but they also both do plenty of defensive work that protects their respective back 4's when required, all it would require was intelligence for when one is to go and one is to stay, and both are intelligent players.
 
Devil may care said:
It doesn't stand if the reason for less tackles is because his positional play doesn't require him to make as many as Carvalho. You are right I haven't seen as much of him as it seems you have, but the times I have seen him I didn't see anything incredibly special to warrant such a massive fee, and in truth the league he is playing in is very weak.
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This weak league has produced many star players.


Devil may care said:

It all depends on how much work the #10 puts in when it comes to helping out the 2 man midfield and winning the ball, floating around passing from a little deeper doesn't make him a CM or add to the defensive stability of the midfield.
Did you ever see us play with Keane and Robson or Keane and Ince? this idea that you have to play with a DM is born from Europe but is not a necessity. Herrera and Vidal can both attack yes, but they also both do plenty of defensive work that protects their respective back 4's when required, all it would require was intelligence for when one is to go and one is to stay, and both are intelligent players.
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Contributing to how we dictate the pace of the game and playing in your zone, which Mata would do as the no.10 does make him an extra man in midfield. As such, making an attacking midfielder in this instance part of a midfield three. On your other point, I rather have a balanced pairing of Carvalho and Herrera than an all out attacking pairing of Vidal and Herrera.
 
Amadaeus said:
This weak league has produced many star players.
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And plenty of duds, just like the Eredivisie, for every Bergkamp there is an Alfonso Alves and for every Ronaldo there is a Quaresma.

Contributing to how we dictate the pace of the game and playing in your zone, which Mata would do as the no.10 does make him an extra man in midfield. As such, making an attacking midfielder in this instance part of a midfield three. On your other point, I rather have a balanced pairing of Carvalho and Herrera than an all out attacking pairing of Vidal and Herrera.
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It's not an extra man in midfield when we don't have the ball which is our biggest issue, a #10 is not a CM, it's a free creative role with very limited defensive responsibilities, I'd rather have a 3rd CM that can dictate play and defend and track runners. Herrera and Vidal is not an all out attacking pairing, both are box to box players who have as much defensive quality in their game as offensive qualities, I'd rather have that than a player who just patrols in front of the back 4 and has limited mobility.
 
Devil may care said:
And plenty of duds, just like the Eredivisie, for every Bergkamp there is an Alfonso Alves and for every Ronaldo there is a Quaresma.
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That is the risk of football. With that mentality, you probably would have said we should not have signed Cristiano Ronaldo or even Javier Hernendez because they came from a shite league. Those who has seen Carvalho play, knows he is a quality player capable of being the best holding midfielder in the world.


Devil may care said:
It's not an extra man in midfield when we don't have the ball which is our biggest issue, a #10 is not a CM, it's a free creative role with very limited defensive responsibilities, I'd rather have a 3rd CM that can dictate play and defend and track runners. Herrera and Vidal is not an all out attacking pairing, both are box to box players who have as much defensive quality in their game as offensive qualities, I'd rather have that than a player who just patrols in front of the back 4 and has limited mobility.
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That is an awful reasoning. It like saying giggs despite playing as a cm was not a cm because he can not defend. Positional role determine what position a player plays on the pitch. With Mata as an "attacking midfielder" he would contribute to the midfield because he would help keep possession, dictate play and even track his man when of the ball. He will not become a striker on the pitch because he is not proficient in defending, he is still capable of winning possession back as an attacking midfielfer.

Vidal, Herrera and most box to box midfielder would prefer to partner a midfield anchor than another player that is similiar to them because it balance the side out. When they venture forward, they will have support behind them that can keep the ball circulating between the midfield and attack.
 
Amadaeus said:
That is the risk of football. With that mentality, you probably would have said we should not have signed Cristiano Ronaldo or even Javier Hernendez because they came from a shite league. Those who has seen Carvalho play, knows he is a quality player capable of being the best holding midfielder in the world.
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We paid £12M for Ronaldo and £7M for Hernandez, that is entirely reasonable for a prospect, £37M for a prospect is not reasonable, for that fee I'd want Redondo. :D I've seen him play, are only views that think he's amazing valid?

That is an awful reasoning. It like saying giggs despite playing as a cm was not a cm because he can not defend. Positional role determine what position a player plays on the pitch. With Mata as an "attacking midfielder" he would contribute to the midfield because he would help keep possession, dictate play and even track his man when of the ball. He will not become a striker on the pitch because he is not proficient in defending, he is still capable of winning possession back as an attacking midfielfer.

Vidal, Herrera and most box to box midfielder would prefer to partner a midfield anchor than another player that is similiar to them because it balance the side out. When they venture forward, they will have support behind them that can keep the ball circulating between the midfield and attack.
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Giggs played as a proper CM in a 2 man midfield time and time again so I don't see the comparison with Mata, Giggs adapted his game to play as a full central midfield player, he attacked yes but he wasn't playing as a #10. If you were using Rooney as opposed to Mata in this debate I could maybe see your point as Rooney is capable of putting in the defensive yards, Mata is a pure #10 and would leave us more vulnerable defensively in the set up you are proposing.

As I said we have played with 2 box to box CM's before, did you see us play with the Robson/Ince and Keane/Ince combinations? As if you did you would see it can work just as efficiently as having one CM that simply sits in front of the back 4 for 90 minutes.
 
Things are calm since we heard from Sporting about his price.

If it's a sign that we consider bigger fish on the market than we're in some serious business this year.
 
Devil may care said:
We paid £12M for Ronaldo and £7M for Hernandez, that is entirely reasonable for a prospect, £37M for a prospect is not reasonable, for that fee I'd want Redondo. :D I've seen him play, are only views that think he's amazing valid?
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If Ronaldo was at Sporting in this modern era, his buyout would be around the same. Football in particularily the transfer market has not stayed static.

Devil may care said:
Giggs played as a proper CM in a 2 man midfield time and time again so I don't see the comparison with Mata, Giggs adapted his game to play as a full central midfield player, he attacked yes but he wasn't playing as a #10. If you were using Rooney as opposed to Mata in this debate I could maybe see your point as Rooney is capable of putting in the defensive yards, Mata is a pure #10 and would leave us more vulnerable defensively in the set up you are proposing.

As I said we have played with 2 box to box CM's before, did you see us play with the Robson/Ince and Keane/Ince combinations? As if you did you would see it can work just as efficiently as having one CM that simply sits in front of the back 4 for 90 minutes.
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The comparison between Giggs and Mata is that their positional role determines what position they play on the pitch. Not their attributes as a players. If Mata plays as a number 10, he effects the midfield moreso than a striker would, making him an extra man in that position. We would not be vulnerable because we have an anchor in my formation which is non existant in the one you prosed with two offense minded central midfielders in Vidal and Herrera.
 
I think Carvalho will be the fall back option if we don't get Vidal, can't see us getting both.
 
Amadaeus said:
If Ronaldo was at Sporting in this modern era, his buyout would be around the same. Football in particularily the transfer market has not stayed static.
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That's a guess at best, look at Depay, PSV are only looking at around £15M for him. We paid £37M for Mata, a fully proven world class player, it would be madness to pay it for a maybe.

The comparison between Giggs and Mata is that their positional role determines what position they play on the pitch. Not their attributes as a players. If Mata plays as a number 10, he effects the midfield moreso than a striker would, making him an extra man in that position. We would not be vulnerable because we have an anchor in my formation which is non existant in the one you prosed with two offense minded central midfielders in Vidal and Herrera.
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There is no comparison though as Giggs never played that role and Mata offers very little defensively when we don't have the ball, you are also assuming that having an anchor makes you tighter defensively but it doesn't if he's not all that mobile, both Herrera and Vidal can cover a lot of ground and prevent us being run on. I ask again, did you see us play with Robson/Ince and Robson/Keane? Those pairings proved that you can play with 2 all round CM's and don't need a CM that just sits in front of the back 4.
 
Devil may care said:
That's a guess at best, look at Depay, PSV are only looking at around £15M for him. We paid £37M for Mata, a fully proven world class player, it would be madness to pay it for a maybe.
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No, anyone that has a glimpse of Ronaldo potential in the Portuguese league will have a hefty buy out clause in this modern era. You are still stuck in the past and until you come to the present, you will understand the is current scenario . Look at Draxler, his buy out clause is around €46m and he is a much better comparison than Depay who was an unknown before the world cup.


Devil may care said:
There is no comparison though as Giggs never played that role and Mata offers very little defensively when we don't have the ball, you are also assuming that having an anchor makes you tighter defensively but it doesn't if he's not all that mobile, both Herrera and Vidal can cover a lot of ground and prevent us being run on. I ask again, did you see us play with Robson/Ince and Robson/Keane? Those pairings proved that you can play with 2 all round CM's and don't need a CM that just sits in front of the back 4.
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The comparison comes in your definition of a midfielder. Giggs and Mata offers the same type of protection in midfield and as such it showcase the contribution Mata can have in becoming a third man in midfield as an attacking midfielder. You are stuck in past with Robson, Keane, etc. Maybe that is why you do not understand football in this current era. Playing Vidal and Herrera is no difference than playing Ramsey and Wilshere in midfielder. Their is no balance to it. A concept, you have not grasped so far.
 
Devil may care said:
That's a guess at best, look at Depay, PSV are only looking at around £15M for him. We paid £37M for Mata, a fully proven world class player, it would be madness to pay it for a maybe.



There is no comparison though as Giggs never played that role and Mata offers very little defensively when we don't have the ball, you are also assuming that having an anchor makes you tighter defensively but it doesn't if he's not all that mobile, both Herrera and Vidal can cover a lot of ground and prevent us being run on. I ask again, did you see us play with Robson/Ince and Robson/Keane? Those pairings proved that you can play with 2 all round CM's and don't need a CM that just sits in front of the back 4.
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I'm not that sure a robson / keane midfield would be that great anymore.
Times have changed and some variation of 4-5-1 has been the theme for a while. 3-5-2 and 4-6-0 are nearly becoming common.
As classic as that midfield was it would have a much harder time these days when thrown against 4 other players.
A mata, hererra, vidal midfield might work but it'd be about outscoring teams i'd say. Mata will help a bit i guess too.

I dont think Carvalho's worth 45 million at the moment but i think he could end up being a great signing despite that.
I can easily see us buying 3 midfielders over the next year or two though so it doesn't need to mean that would be the end of a vidal or strootman bid.
At the end of the day were gong to need 4 midfielders and i think we'll be lucky to get any use out of 1 of the 4 we currently have.
 
Amadaeus said:
No, anyone that has a glimpse of Ronaldo potential in the Portuguese league will have a hefty buy out clause in this modern era. You are still stuck in the past and until you come to the present, you will understand the is current scenario . Look at Draxler, his buy out clause is around €46m and he is a much better comparison than Depay who was an unknown before the world cup.
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Those are stupid clauses that no sensible club like ours would meet, they are for the plaything clubs that buy shiny new toys for the sake of it. I'm not in the past I am in the reality of Manchester United, we don't operate like Madrid and PSG.

The comparison comes in your definition of a midfielder. Giggs and Mata offers the same type of protection in midfield and as such it showcase the contribution Mata can have in becoming a third man in midfield as an attacking midfielder. You are stuck in past with Robson, Keane, etc. Maybe that is why you do not understand football in this current era. Playing Vidal and Herrera is no difference than playing Ramsey and Wilshere in midfielder. Their is no balance to it. A concept, you have not grasped so far.
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There is no comparison because Giggs is much better defensively as a midfielder than Mata and plays differently. The rest of your post reeks of arrogance but I will reply, the idea that you have to play with a holder is sheep mentality that comes from this notion that you have to play like every European team, you don't. I also don't think you have seen enough of Herrera or Vidal if you think they'd be anything like Wilshire and Ramsey, in fact the comparison shows it is you rather than me that is struggling to grasp things, I think this is at an end, you obviously think Carvalho is something special and I don't, I also am not sure you ever saw Robson and Ince play together if you really think any team with Carvalho in would be more defensively solid than one with that pairing in it..
 
If Moyes was still here we'd have signed Kroos and Cavalho by now. I'm pretty sure of that.

I think the sporting board are probably a bit disappointed at that too as they seem to be quite happy to shift him for £37m.
 
Pexbo said:
If Moyes was still here we'd have signed Kroos and Cavalho by now. I'm pretty sure of that.

I think the sporting board are probably a bit disappointed at that too as they seem to be quite happy to shift him for £37m.
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I highly doubt that.
 
caid said:
I'm not that sure a robson / keane midfield would be that great anymore.
Times have changed and some variation of 4-5-1 has been the theme for a while. 3-5-2 and 4-6-0 are nearly becoming common.
As classic as that midfield was it would have a much harder time these days when thrown against 4 other players.
A mata, hererra, vidal midfield might work but it'd be about outscoring teams i'd say. Mata will help a bit i guess too.

I dont think Carvalho's worth 45 million at the moment but i think he could end up being a great signing despite that.
I can easily see us buying 3 midfielders over the next year or two though so it doesn't need to mean that would be the end of a vidal or strootman bid.
At the end of the day were gong to need 4 midfielders and i think we'll be lucky to get any use out of 1 of the 4 we currently have.
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It wasn't so long ago that people said that you had to play with the Spanish method of ball retention and it was all about possession and short passing triangles, then suddenly Real Madrid win the CL with blistering pace on the counter as their weapon and minimal posession stats and football suddenly takes another turn.

In this World Cup pace and physicality are kings and counter attack is the favoured system. I think this can easily apply to midfield as well, this notion that you have to play with an out and out holder as opposed to two all rounders is just what is currently favoured, I see no reason that a manager can't opt for a different approach and make it just as successful.
 
Devil may care said:
Those are stupid clauses that no sensible club like ours would meet, they are for the plaything clubs that buy shiny new toys for the sake of it. I'm not in the past I am in the reality of Manchester United, we don't operate like Madrid and PSG.
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That is why we have not activated it. Herrera had the same clause last season and we did not meet it. If United thinks he is worth £37m that says alot about the kids talent.


Devil may care said:
There is no comparison because Giggs is much better defensively as a midfielder than Mata and plays differently. The rest of your post reeks of arrogance but I will reply, the idea that you have to play with a holder is sheep mentality that comes from this notion that you have to play like every European team, you don't. I also don't think you have seen enough of Herrera or Vidal if you think they'd be anything like Wilshire and Ramsey, in fact the comparison shows it is you rather than me that is struggling to grasp things, I think this is at an end, you obviously think Carvalho is something special and I don't, I also am not sure you ever saw Robson and Ince play together if you really think any team with Carvalho in would be more defensively solid than one with that pairing in it..
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Giggs is not much better. Mata has the legs to cover more ground and could do as good a job. Wilshere, Vidal, Herrera and Ramsey are all box to box midfielders that are offensive in nature. They is a resemblance when comparing a midfielder of these two pairs. On your last point a team of Carvalho and Herrera is much better defensively than a team of vidal and herrera.
 
Cina said:
I highly doubt that.
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Few know and I doubt we'll ever find out and I'm just speculating of course but I think Moyes genuinely did have the groundwork done on that transfer.

It came out that LVG wasn't going to persue him about a week before Kroos himself came out and said that United are not an option and he will "probably be staying at Bayern next year"... and now Real come in offering the wages we were offering and he's on his way there. It definitely suggests that he's been planning on moving or chasing the money all along and not just using us as a bargaining chip like it was always suggested... there was definitely some fire causing the smoke.

We also wanted our targets wrapped up before the World Cup and it's well documented that situations changed with the change of manager, I think it would have been Woodwards intention to get it sealed pre World Cup and as he's going for £25m, well I don't think Bayern would have put up a great fight.
 
Devil may care said:
It wasn't so long ago that people said that you had to play with the Spanish method of ball retention and it was all about possession and short passing triangles, then suddenly Real Madrid win the CL with blistering pace on the counter as their weapon and minimal posession stats and football suddenly takes another turn.

In this World Cup pace and physicality are kings and counter attack is the favoured system. I think this can easily apply to midfield as well, this notion that you have to play with an out and out holder as opposed to two all rounders is just what is currently favoured, I see no reason that a manager can't opt for a different approach and make it just as successful.
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It could work, im not saying it wouldn't but i'd feel more comfortable having a dedicated dm (doesn't need to be carvalho) in midfield against barcelona or city or whatever.
Better for fergies blood pressure :)
I do think tactics are changing and ball retention is less important these days. But a lot of these teams playing counter attacking are still loading up the middle of the field.
And to be honest a large part of my problem with vidal, herrera, mata is mata.
I just dont trust him defensively, i think hes a bit of a passenger and i'd think he'd need to contribute a bit more for it to work
 
Amadaeus said:
That is why we have not activated it. Herrera had the same clause last season and we did not meet it. If United thinks he is worth £37m that says alot about the kids talent.
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Or that we are desperate and he's the best we can manage, somehow I doubt we'll be paying that kind of money for him though, same as we refused to pay it from Lucas Moura.

Giggs is not much better. Mata has the legs to cover more ground and could do as good a job. Wilshere, Vidal, Herrera and Ramsey are all box to box midfielders that are offensive in nature. They is a resemblance when comparing a midfielder of these two pairs. On your last point a team of Carvalho and Herrera is much better defensively than a team of vidal and herrera.
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This is just going in circles, I disagree with everything you've written here so lets just move on mate. :)

caid said:
It could work, im not saying it wouldn't but i'd feel more comfortable having a dedicated dm (doesn't need to be carvalho) in midfield against barcelona or city or whatever.
Better for fergies blood pressure :)
I do think tactics are changing and ball retention is less important these days. But a lot of these teams playing counter attacking are still loading up the middle of the field.
And to be honest a large part of my problem with vidal, herrera, mata is mata.
I just dont trust him defensively, i think hes a bit of a passenger and i'd think he'd need to contribute a bit more for it to work
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For this season, if we had Herrera and Vidal I think Carrick can still come in as a DM in a 3 man midfield with them when required, long term way me have to investigate options though for sure.

Middle of the park is more important than ever I agree, but I think pigeon holed players are not necessarily the way forward, a return to more versatile CM's in there is something I hope to see. I share the concern with Mata in that regard, certainly against better teams even with Herrera/Vidal or Herrera/Carvalho.
 
Devil may care said:
It wasn't so long ago that people said that you had to play with the Spanish method of ball retention and it was all about possession and short passing triangles, then suddenly Real Madrid win the CL with blistering pace on the counter as their weapon and minimal posession stats and football suddenly takes another turn.

In this World Cup pace and physicality are kings and counter attack is the favoured system. I think this can easily apply to midfield as well, this notion that you have to play with an out and out holder as opposed to two all rounders is just what is currently favoured, I see no reason that a manager can't opt for a different approach and make it just as successful.
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I still think the Spanish method is needed for united, not fully but I do want united to keep the ball by play possession football, but willing to hit teams with pace and power. The blueprints of how united should play the game, which I have no idea why we went away from this model, is how we played in the 2007/08 season. A team well drilled, but played a very interchangeable game, with a mix of ball possession, counter attacking, and ability to just mix it up. If we have to go long we could, if we wanted to swap positions we could. So for me its more of the 2007/08 style of play I would love LVG to bring back
 
Devil may care said:
And plenty of duds, just like the Eredivisie, for every Bergkamp there is an Alfonso Alves and for every Ronaldo there is a Quaresma.



It's not an extra man in midfield when we don't have the ball which is our biggest issue, a #10 is not a CM, it's a free creative role with very limited defensive responsibilities, I'd rather have a 3rd CM that can dictate play and defend and track runners. Herrera and Vidal is not an all out attacking pairing, both are box to box players who have as much defensive quality in their game as offensive qualities, I'd rather have that than a player who just patrols in front of the back 4 and has limited mobility.
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Diego Costa, Falcão and James came from this league, plus Di Maria and a few more
 
Mata, Herrera and Vidal would work similarly to Di Maria, Khedira and Modric combination that started the champions league final.
 
MancFanFromManc said:
Just talking transfers with my old man, and he reckons this is a smoke screen for a Vidal deal. He watches a lot of Spanish footy and doesnt rate him.
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As above, he hasn't had a single good game in La Liga. Not one.
 
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