For players like Bruno, imagine he played number 10 with Keane-Scholes/Butt behind him, Giggs, Beckham on the wings and Van Nistelrooy ahead of him. He'd be lethal. Or Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra, Carrick behind him.
Will Bruno achieve legend status at utd?
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He wouldn't have played in those teams because he isn't at that level
Aye and it's the opinions that align with the objective stats which are wrong and those which contradict them that are correct. Makes sense.
Where to even start with nonsense like this....
"More often than not" does not equal "always". That's why we're having the discussion to begin with. I believe that it's possible to achieve legend status at a club without winning major trophies. Of course it helps your case if you are heavily decorated, but it's not the be-all and end-all.
Most of our legends can check off at least 3 (typically 4) out of these 5:
- High skill-level
- High effort
- X-factor
- Long stay
- Numerous big trophies
Bruno can check off the first 3 in my opinion.
"Long stay" is a bit hard to define. He has been here longer than Stam and if he stays beyond the summer (which I suspect he will), then he will have been here longer than Cantona. But I doubt that he will stay as long as 10 years. Then again, the average length of stay among our legends is probably just 7 or 8 years, so it's hardly a disaster if Bruno leaves a year or two before that.
Although I still live in the hope that he has the longevity of Modric and stay here much longer.
I mean if you arbitrarily cut sentences off when replying like that - you can make any point. I did say that when/if a player doesn’t have a place in said dominant teams or trophy winning teams they likely have a defining moment for the club in their catalogue. Bruno doesn’t have either.
We’re having this discussion because it’s a thread on redcafe. That doesn’t inherently mean it has merit. Majority of the replies I’ve seen are people confused as to how this is even a notion.
Bruno being highly skilled and/or having x-factor are both highly debated and contested points on this forum weekly. I can’t think of a single action in football that Bruno Fernandes is highly skilled at, that’s not to say he’s not skilled at all, mind. His effort has also been questioned by bonafide United legends, no less.
Nah, he would fit in just fine. One of the best players for one of the best teams in Europe at international level but couldn't play for a successful United team?
Yeah like Spurs definitely shouldn't have bought James Maddison from Leicester because the league table said so when they were relegated.
Why? What’s he achieved
No he’s bang average
I don't think that Bruno has the capabilities to stay relevant as long as Modric, Bruno is a player who plays with high intensity and covers a lot of ground. To allow him to be useful well into his 30s, his passing must be much better.
Feel in key areas his passing let's him down, rushes a lot or try to play that unbelievable pass. I will put some blame on to him as to why we concede alot is due down to his consistent turn over rate. However, he can't do anything about our keeper being a fraud in plenty of moments, but we can't keep turning the ball over as much he does.
KDB is given such a luxury because he has the elite defense and goalkeeper that makes the risk of misplacing a pass much less threatening in conceding.
Bruno doesn't start for our biggest rivals. I don't even think he gets into Citys squad. He's just too careless with the ball and so, so poor when it comes to his decision making.
I'm convinced people here have never played football and think it relies purely on numbers, but from where I'm standing until we have a team full of team players that are less careless with the ball we will never get back to the top.
I'm convinced people here have never played football and think it relies purely on numbers, but from where I'm standing until we have a team full of team players that are less careless with the ball we will never get back to the top.
We clearly watch a different game. In my circles, calling Bruno "highly skilled" or "hard working" is as obvious as stating that water is wet.
He's no Best or Charlton, but he's a better player than G.Neville and Solskjær and certainly comparable to Carrick and Evra. With Bruno it's not a matter of skill or effort. It's a matter of success. It's for the same reason that some posters don't consider De Gea a legend either, which in my opinion is crazy.
Some players from winning teams are way overrated and ones from less successful ones are underrated, United won the league by 18 points with Bosnich, Taibi and Van der Gouw in goal, De Gea was several times the player of those. Or how De Gea won the league in 2012/13, despite being much better in later years, because the rest of the team was better around him that season and was managed by Ferguson.
I've no doubt Ferguson would love to have had a player like Bruno who works hard, has a strong mentality and would have won a few leagues with him in the team.
Yeah he'd absolutely crush it for Fergie. I reckon Shaw and Rashford would have done really well too.
It’s genuinely mind blowing how so many of you keep making the same basic mistake when Bruno is being discussed. Nobody who thinks he is a good player thinks he’s a good player just because he has good stats. How many times does this need to be pointed out?!
There are, however, plenty of people who think he’s a good player based on watching him play football. When stats are produced which back up their opinion then those opinions are a lot more justified than opinions to the contrary but their opinions aren’t being formed because of the stats. Honestly, this shouldn’t be a difficult thing to grasp.
Yes, IF he stays few more years and lifts a trophy as a captain. UCL or EPL. Which is unlikely to happen. So i answer no.
I did call him divisive. Plenty people appreciate his productivity regardless of the level of opposition it comes against or wild fluctuation in performance levels, but it’s not as if my opinion is an outlier. You can just look at this thread or his performance threads. And I did say he’s skilled, just not highly skilled relative to what I consider to be top players and to what we’ve previously had at this club. Out of curiosity - what do you consider Bruno highly skilled at?
What is Bruno's most memorable big game performance? Arsenal at home last season, maybe? Even then, you could say Eriksen was the main difference maker in that game.
I've seen the man drop as many stinkers as good games but when people point out the obvious, stats are pretty much always brought into the equation to defend his terrible performances. To those like yourself who watch and exalt him, you surely can see that more often than not, he plays terribly throughout the majority of the match?
He is one of the reasons we've been soooo open as a team, because he's so careless and leaves us prone to many turnovers. Our team is full of greedy, dumb, selfish players with questionable technique in tight spaces. Bruno is one of them.
He's also generally crap in big games, where not only the pressure is on bit you have less space and time on the ball. I'd say world class players and legends do it when you need it most, especially on the big stage.
That's an easy one. When we got battered 7-0 by our biggest rivals.
Doubt it
Like it, or not, he's our best and most consistent player.
No. Because that doesn’t happen. Other than in your imagination anyway. Since he signed for us he has consistently been one of our better players. He has had some poor individual performances but, if anything, these are a lot less frequent than any other player in the squad.
The big games criticism is fair but we’re usually getting completely dominated in those games anyway (have you seen the state of our central midfielders these last few years?!) and a player like Bruno is rarely going to shine in a match where the opposition have an iron grip in midfield.
Anyway, this has feck all to do with whether he’s a legend or not so I’ll leave it at that. I just got triggered by yet another post accusing people of forming an opinion on him based on his statistics. Which literally nobody on here is doing.
Bruno is underrated and unappreciated. 70 goals and 59 assists in 212 appearences with the Club, the league leader in chances created this season, yet some of you want to see him sold. Absolutely mental.
The question to be asked is whether Bruno would slot in as a starter in any one of our great title winning sides. The 1999 treble winning team would be a step too far but there is no doubting that Bruno would have the quality to be a starter in our great 2008 double winning side and the sides that won titles after Ronaldo left. Bruno finds himself in a poor United side, so his value gets diminished. Robson who had similar bad luck playing on sides that couldn't win or complete for a title until his later years still had his signature big moments in cup competitions (Cup Winners Cup) and is widely touted as a legend. That moment so far has eluded Bruno, and that is the only real knock on his time at United, which could yet change in the future.
The question to be asked is whether Bruno would slot in as a starter in any one of our great title winning sides. The 1999 treble winning team would be a step too far but there is no doubting that Bruno would have the quality to be a starter in our great 2008 double winning side and the sides that won titles after Ronaldo left. Bruno finds himself in a poor United side, so his value gets diminished. Robson who had similar bad luck playing on sides that couldn't win or complete for a title until his later years still had his signature big moments in cup competitions (Cup Winners Cup) and is widely touted as a legend. That moment so far has eluded Bruno, and that is the only real knock on his time at United, which could yet change in the future.
I refer you to the post below your own. Exactly what I'm referring to with regards to stats.
Apologies for veering off point of the post.
You've referred me to the same post. Here I am trying to spot the differences
Nope - he has been a very good player but you have to be really special to be considered a legend and Bruno hasn't been special enough. I can only think of 10-12 players I would consider legend over the 40 years I have supported United, and he isn't close to being one.
Beat City 2-0 in 2020, he was outstanding. Scored a good free-kick against Liverpool to knock them out of the FA Cup as well in his first year.
Legend status is bestowed upon someone on one good season now, is it? Or half a season in Maguire's case. feck me!
Since he arrived at United, he's been out best and most consistent player.
Unless we have a huge upturn in winning/competing for multiple trophies I don’t see him reaching legendary status. It takes a very special player like Robbo to be able to do so in a poor team.
I do think he has the ability if the team was better overall. He would also be more likely to have defining moments if he had a stronger group around him. At the moment, it’s too much to ask and he’ll likely run out of time.
I do think he has the ability if the team was better overall. He would also be more likely to have defining moments if he had a stronger group around him. At the moment, it’s too much to ask and he’ll likely run out of time.
Not even top 50. He's a very good player but with many flaws and the team under his leadership didn't really set the world on fire. Unless he leads the team to PL or CL, he won't even be considered one of our best players in modern times.
Legend status is bestowed upon someone on one good season now, is it? Or half a season in Maguire's case. feck me!
Since he arrived at United, he's been out best and most consistent player.
He hasn't been our best player this season, last season, or the season before that.
There are far more reasons why Robson is a legend. Playing in a poor side does not make you Bryan Robson. Being fantastic week in week out and dragging the team to victory. Numerous huge games against rivals like Liverpool, City, Arsenal. Cup final goals. Being the first captain to lift the FA Cup three times, at the time a huge trophy. The cup winners cup final. The league title was really a cherry on what was an unbelievable cake.
Feck people can’t even name one big game where Bruno has even turned up. 4 seasons. You know….’anyone, anyone….BUELLER’….As if that’s some small issue. We’ve had players over the past ten years have good games against big teams…Blind, Herrera, Smalling, Shaw, Pogba, Lingard, Mata, DeGea off the top of my head.
Here’s one for you and particularly those who base their opinions on stats….
David Beckham…two assists in the CL final in 99. But I don’t remember him for that. He’s a legend to me because we struggled in that game against a top class Bayern side and despite playing in a midfield four in CM against a midfield on par with our first choice midfield, with Giggs on right, Butt next to him and Blomqvist on the left…Beckham was utterly outstanding.
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I’d have Van Nistelrooy ahead of Cole. Scored more goals for us in far fewer games (if Wiki is to believed)(I consider ALL of the below to be United legends, but I've split them into two groups. The second group consists of players who I have experienced people disagreeing with me on multiple times. So don't shoot the messenger!)
More or less undisputed United legends
Edwards, Charlton, Law, Best, Robson, Schmeichel, Giggs, Scholes, G.Neville, Irwin, Keane, Cantona, Cole, Stam, Rio, Vidic, Rooney
Seems to be up for debate
Beckham, Solskjær*, Evra, Park, Carrick, De Gea, Ronaldo**
* his reputation (unfairly) took a blow after his managerial stint
** (rightfully) fell down after his second stint
The only thing these all have in common are Premier League/English First Division trophies. Some are there primarily because of their hard work, others for their x factor. Some were at the club for a long time, others for just 3 years.
There are multiple players on this list that Bruno is more talented than. There are multiple players on this list that Bruno will have stuck around for longer than this summer. And in terms of hard work and effort, Bruno does in no way look out of place. The only way to exclude Bruno (provided that you agree on the second group as well) is if you consider winning the PL a necessity in order to be considered a legend. Personally I disagree with this distinction so regardless of happens in the upcoming years Bruno has already done enough to warrant a spot in that second group.
Some of these might be a bit overlapping but here goes:
- Chance-creation
- Vision
- Movement
- Passing (spare me the pass completion stats, it's more nuanced than that)
- Intercepting
- Tackling (for being an attacking midfielder)
Pressing, hard work and fitness are also skills that I normally would include, but those belong in the other category I called "effort".
Only if he wins the league. Its a high bar at the club and its too recent to outrageous success for anything less to cut it.
It's not nonsense just because you don't understand it.
I'd agree with this tbh. I'm surprised by the amount of people saying Stam. If he's included the list must be long.
Some of our fans don’t rate De Gea as a legend so Bruno has no chance….
I actually think 2) is what's not true. Usually when he plays well, we win. However, he's not very consistent. Within a game let alone game to game. He also rarely stands out positively in big games. This is why for me, he's not a legend. However, this may change if we get better as a team he leads the team to success.Ok I will bite
That said the OP question was is he a Utd legend, which I TBH is not ruled in or out by any or all of your statements, I guess it comes down to your definition of Legend, I think that definition should be extremely personal, for me it purely comes down to how you feel or felt about a player, football is yes full of stats, but you know from watching the game so much more than the stats can tell you, for instance Wayne Rooney, obviously a Legend based on stats, trophies and performances, on that basis you could argue that he is one of our most Legendary players, but for me he would be down the pecking order, below players like Robbo, Rio, Schmeichel, Cantona, Beckham, it is just personal, emotional instinct.
Question for you:
Marcus Rashford 126 goals in 384 games,
OGS 126 goals in 366 games....
Who has the more legendary status at Utd?
I know which player gets into my mental highlight reel more than the other (BTW not meant as a dig at Rashford, I still love him).
You can add Andy Cole 121 in 275, still above Rashy! but then I was younger and not such a miserable cynic, maybe that is another factor
You're right about viewing footballers more cynically these days, I do too. I don't view Rashford in a positive light unlike the other two, however I believe he has a real chance to surpass them because he has time on side.