Will Bruno achieve legend status at utd?

[El Jefe]

The top players who produce great moments in big matches usually play in top teams themselves. We haven't been a patch on City or Liverpool in recent years, so to expect consistent, game-winning performances from any of our players against the likes of that is a very tall order. We've managed to beat them on occasion during that time, and yes, Bruno has been a part of that.

It takes a monumental player like Robson to drag a mediocre team across the line regularly. I don't think anyone is putting Bruno besides Robbo.

I’ve seen this defence a few times and I’m not sure I agree. In Bruno’s time here our league positions have been 4th, 2nd, 6th and 3rd. We’ve also been good enough to get to domestic and EL semifinals and finals. No one is asking for him to produce top moments as often as those in top teams but there have been players in similar positions as Bruno that have produced a lot more top performances in big games

Son, Kane, Aubameyang, Sanchez, Rashford, Coutinho, Vardy and Mahrez are players who have been in teams in a similar position to what Bruno has been in and managed to still stand out in a number of big games. You even have players like Grealish and Zaha that were in even more weakened positions but still had their moments.

Excluding Zaha, that is the level of player that some believe Bruno belongs in so he needs to be held to that same standard. It’s also not just the fact he doesn’t have his memorable moment, the bigger issue is how often he performs poorly in them and he does this more than any other top player in my opinion.

 

[youngrell]

I’ve seen this defence a few times and I’m not sure I agree. In Bruno’s time here our league positions have been 4th, 2nd, 6th and 3rd. We’ve also been good enough to get to domestic and EL semifinals and finals. No one is asking for him to produce top moments as often as those in top teams but there have been players in similar positions as Bruno that have produced a lot more top performances in big games

Son, Kane, Aubameyang, Sanchez, Rashford, Coutinho, Vardy and Mahrez are players who have been in teams in a similar position to what Bruno has been in and managed to still stand out in a number of big games. You even have players like Grealish and Zaha that were in even more weakened positions but still had their moments.

Excluding Zaha, that is the level of player that some believe Bruno belongs in so he needs to be held to that same standard. It’s also not just the fact he doesn’t have his memorable moment, the bigger issue is how often he performs poorly in them and he does this more than any other top player in my opinion.

You may be right, or it may be just the fact that one of our players playing poorly affects us more or is more prominent in our minds. I couldn't say for sure either way.

 

[antk]

I’ve seen this defence a few times and I’m not sure I agree. In Bruno’s time here our league positions have been 4th, 2nd, 6th and 3rd. We’ve also been good enough to get to domestic and EL semifinals and finals. No one is asking for him to produce top moments as often as those in top teams but there have been players in similar positions as Bruno that have produced a lot more top performances in big games

Son, Kane, Aubameyang, Sanchez, Rashford, Coutinho, Vardy and Mahrez are players who have been in teams in a similar position to what Bruno has been in and managed to still stand out in a number of big games. You even have players like Grealish and Zaha that were in even more weakened positions but still had their moments.

Excluding Zaha, that is the level of player that some believe Bruno belongs in so he needs to be held to that same standard. It’s also not just the fact he doesn’t have his memorable moment, the bigger issue is how often he performs poorly in them and he does this more than any other top player in my opinion.

Never thought about it but Sanchez at Arsenal is actually a great comparison for Bruno in terms of pedigree at their respective clubs.

 

[simplyared]

There's a lot more wrong with the premise of this thread.

Bruno clearly has an abundance of critics, even more so within United's fanbase than outside - which is never a good sign. Most United pundits are highly critical while non-United are more sympathetic. Neville and Keane dont even hide their dislike of him any more.

Bottom line is that Bruno isn't as good as you and a minority of hero worshipers think he is and that's reflected in the stands, on television and online.

You're doing the same as @El Jefe: You have nothing whatsoever to back up your statements. On one of Gary Neville's recent programs where, the panel including Keane went through the utd team, were asked which players they would ditch, give a final chance, or keep. Without any hesitation Bruno was a "keep" from all four pundits without a single negative comment. After the Wigan game Keane voiced his opinion saying Bruno acted smart getting the penalty. So where's the dislike you're talking about!?
In answer to your "minority" who think he's good. Bruno is currently rated 3rd best Portuguese player after Dias and Silva according to FIFA.

 

[Amar__]

Sorry if I’m a little aggressive today but you’ve forced me into the loft, as the internet doesn’t really cover very well the CL final of 99.

However it’s really quite funny that the guy who claims Beckham didn’t have a good game against Bayern, primarily (ie Beckham was to blame) because of the midfield… went into meltdown in Bruno’s performance thread after the 7-0 defeat to Liverpool making 58 (5-8) (FIFTY EIGHT) posts in two days defending Bruno’s performance in that game. One of your posts being this….

‘It was a rhetorical question. I assumed you would understand the point I was making. We've been dominated a lot in big games in recent years. Hence it's been very hard for any player’

So if you’re Bruno and play like actual shite in a 7-0 defeat at Anfield then according to 58Posts Mahone you can’t be blamed…‘it’s so very hard’ (apparently so when it comes to Bruno).

Whereas when David Beckham plays out of position in a CL Final WIN, gives us a foothold in the game for 90 mins despite the rejigged midfield, dominating possession, more attempts at and on goal, A higher XG (come on we know you have a boner for this when it comes to certain players) more corners, plays a huge role in us winning the corner for 1-1 and has a huge role in both goals (if not assists) Our best player and for me the best player on the pitch all things considered in that game, leading to us winning the premier league, the fa cup, the European cup…EVERYTHING OUR HEARTS DESIRED. It gets labelled by @58Posts as laughable that Bruno should aspire to this? Ok.

Maybe Becks should have aspired to Bruno’s decent at best performance v Luton at Old Trafford, huge game, big moments 1-0 win v the mighty Hatters, described by @58Posts here:-

“I don’t think it was an excellent performance but it was definitely a good performance. Generally used the ball well and put some excellent crosses into the box. Plus all the usual workrate and defensive effort.

Particularly enjoyed a sliding tackle to win the ball back immediately after Garnacho had broken down an attack with a poor decision. The crowd enjoyed that moment too and it kicked off a few minutes where the stadium got noisy, we pinned them back and eventually won the corner from which we scored. He’s a long way short of the likes of Keane and Robson as a captain but that was a proper captain’s moment.”

Inspirational stuff!

Anyway I like to back up anything I say, I’ll always justify a point I make where necessary unlike 58Posts. So I’ve been in the attic and dug out my newspapers from 27th May 1999…








And just for good measure here is some of the footage of both player’s performances
Beckham’s laughably poor performance in the Nou Camp.




Bruno’s harsh to judge him in the opinion of @58Posts Mahone v Liverpool 7-0 (SEVEN NIL)



The Last clip…imagine Bryan Robson or Becks doing that

Good post, well done!

 

[jem]

Been our best performer almost every year since joining, but yeah let’s slag him off and pretend United will turn everything around completely as soon as he’s gone.

That's not the point; he's had several good-to-very good seasons, an absolutely woeful one (the Rangnick season) and is on course to have a pretty underwhelming one this year. It's damning with faint praise to say he's been our best performer since arriving given the shit show this team has consistently been over the last 10 years.

 

[Abraxas]

I'm not sure, unfortunately his association with the club comes at a very bad time. Full of inept performances and dislikeable teams, which is a bit unfair on him because ultimately he is one of the few that has probably held up his end of the bargain. If everybody produced a similar level over his time we'd not be in quite this mess, I'm fairly confident about that regardless of whatever issues people have with some areas of his game. Fundamentally he has performed within his role as an attacking player that is supposed to create and score goals.

But it just doesn't quite stretch to legend status for me. I think he'd either need to be absurdly, ridiculously good, to the extent that he is always consistent and dragging the team through, or he'd need to become part of a more successful side. If either of those things happened he could do it, but I think his game is a little inconsistent, but mainly the problem is the team is poor.

 

[dubplate warrior]

Probably because they never hear or see anything close to the level of RedCafe criticism out in the real world. This forum is toxic as hell when it comes to rating its own players and managers so Bruno is far from alone in this. It's just more shocking when it comes to him because he's actually a good footballer.

We laugh at Facebook and Twitter comments, but at least their toxicity is immediately apparent from the emojis and slurs, so you don't get fooled to engage to begin with.




Two things:

1. You don't need to be world class to be a club legend. There are plenty of examples that prove this.

2. "World class" is yet another subjective term that people never can agree on. Going by Fergie's definition, Bruno is nowhere near world class. Going by the most common definition (best or second best in a given position), Bruno is at the very least in the conversation. And if you're in the conversation you have to be a very good player. There's no way around it.

He's nowhere near the discussion for best attacking midfielders in the world. Not even top 5.

 

[Reiver]

I hope he does because it would mean he captains us to league and champions league trophies. Can't see it happening though.
Cult status maybe. Legendary status? He's nowhere near right now

 

[Semper Fudge]

Nope.

Yeah but all you do is whenever C. Ronaldo is mentioned so what do you know?

 

[Pscholes18]

Captain Lionheart against Pool this season.....oh wait.

 

[Glaswegian Red]

Bruno Fernandes is the equivalent of being handed a shite with a pound coin lodged in the top.

 

[SirAF]

Yeah but all you do is whenever C. Ronaldo is mentioned so what do you know?

Go away, newb.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That's not the point; he's had several good-to-very good seasons, an absolutely woeful one (the Rangnick season) and is on course to have a pretty underwhelming one this year. It's damning with faint praise to say he's been our best performer since arriving given the shit show this team has consistently been over the last 10 years.

That’s a great example of the crazy bias applied to assessing his performances. You think he’s been pretty underwhelming in a season where he so far has 6 goals and 5 assists, playing as an attacking midfielder for a team that’s one of the lowest scoring in the league. He’s our most potent attacker, bar none. And those figures actually stack up quite well vs players in the same position at teams that have been miles more productive than us. Where all of their attacking players have been scoring and creating goals, week in, week out. Compare and contrast with the shambles ahead of Bruno this season, as well as the paper thin midfield behind him.

And we all know he also puts a huge shift in, every single game he plays. He’s made 40 tackles this season. Two less than Declan Rice and more than any other United player. Dalot is second with 38. No other team mate has made more than 30.

If the players in other positions in his team had managed similar outputs in their roles then our season would be a hell of a lot better than it has been and Bruno’s performances might actually get the praise they deserve. They’ve certainly been a lot better than “pretty underwhelming”.

 

[stefan92]

And we all know he also puts a huge shift in, every single game he plays. He’s made 40 tackles this season.

He does, but he's not very good at it, is he? I remember for example the Gala game when he gave away two free kicks that lead to goals for Gala.

I respect him for trying and giving everything but to reach a legend status he has to get reduce the amount of such situations where he causes as many problems as he solves. He might be unlucky having to play in the current team, but that's life. If he sees that true and captains United on the way back to the top than he has a shout at being a legend, not as long as things stay as they are.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He does, but he's not very good at it, is he? I remember for example the Gala game when he gave away two free kicks that lead to goals for Gala.

I respect him for trying and giving everything but to reach a legend status he has to get reduce the amount of such situations where he causes as many problems as he solves. He might be unlucky having to play in the current team, but that's life. If he sees that true and captains United on the way back to the top than he has a shout at being a legend, not as long as things stay as they are.

I'm not arguing he should be a legend. I don't think he should be, for all sorts of reasons, only some of which are within his control. I also don't think he's a great choice as captain. That's been a pood decision, for him and the team. Although the fact there are no better candidates shows what a total shit show of a squad of players Bruno is trying to perform in.

The point I was making is that he's been one our better players this season and his performances are being persistently underrated by people who made their mind up about him a long time ago and want to blame him for our terrible league campaign, which is actually down to problems that have notihng to do with Bruno.

 

[simplyared]

@ bold ok that's the level we're on here is it.

You have nothing to back up why Bruno has the credentials to be considered a legend, when he quite clearly has none of them. He signed at a horrible moment and had an excellent 18 months in terms of productivity, sure. But longer term he's regressed, he holds our play back and is partly why we'll never evolve into a side that can play good football beyond counter attacks.

And yeh they said they would keep Bruno. They also all said they'd keep McTominay and he's utterly useless. They both want him stripped of the captaincy which is hardly something anyone would ever say about a club legend, captain or not.

2 players ranked above him who are regulars in arguably the best club side in the world is the level. Not high enough for you then?
They all answered "last straw" on McTominay which is a totally different response than a definate keep from all four pundits.
Also you said Neville and Keane dislike Bruno which I question strongly and just don't believe.
I'd say you must be in Cuckoo land

 

[Jeppers7]

That’s a great example of the crazy bias applied to assessing his performances. You think he’s been pretty underwhelming in a season where he so far has 6 goals and 5 assists, playing as an attacking midfielder for a team that’s one of the lowest scoring in the league. He’s our most potent attacker, bar none. And those figures actually stack up quite well vs players in the same position at teams that have been miles more productive than us. Where all of their attacking players have been scoring and creating goals, week in, week out. Compare and contrast with the shambles ahead of Bruno this season, as well as the paper thin midfield behind him.

And we all know he also puts a huge shift in, every single game he plays. He’s made 40 tackles this season. Two less than Declan Rice and more than any other United player. Dalot is second with 38. No other team mate has made more than 30.

If the players in other positions in his team had managed similar outputs in their roles then our season would be a hell of a lot better than it has been and Bruno’s performances might actually get the praise they deserve. They’ve certainly been a lot better than “pretty underwhelming”.

Ah @58Posts spinning again….

So let’s debunk some of this with context.

1.He’s not or most potent attacker, bar non…He’s our penalty taker.

G+A Non pen (per 90)

Casemiro .47
Martial .43
McT .40
Garnacho .39
Rashford .37
Hojlund .33
Bruno .30

2.He’s made more tackles for the simple reason that he’s played most minutes. The majority of our other players have been out for extended periods this season. Antony makes more tackles per 90, Mainoo does an he’s extremely adept at being in the right place.

Tackles (per 90)

1.Case 2.45
2.Amrabat 2.41
3.Antony 2.35
4.AWB 25 2.30
5.Mainoo 2.16
6.Bruno 2.03

Let’s then consider ‘if others had managed similar outputs…

Bruno has a tragic pass completion rate of 71% 10% or more worse than

Mount
Maguire
Casemiro
McT
AWB
Amrabat
Evans
Mainoo
Varane
Lindelof

Also worse than

Antony
Eriksen
Rashford
Garnacho
Shaw
Martial
Dalot
Hojlund

Then look at his pass selection, total giveaways (which his so lucky to play with him teammates have to respond to) and wonder…if you were giving the ball away THAT many times doing THE SAME FECKING THING…would you not learn? The definition of insanity.


Medium Passes completion 75.4% 505 attempted/127 giveaways.
Long Passes completion 49% 309 attempted/156 giveaways.

*long/medium passes given away in total 283

Then the comparison seems to be with Odegaard for whatever reason and stats used to put a positive spin towards Bruno.

Here’s how Odegaard fares in pass completion:-

Overall 85.1% (14.1% higher)
Medium Passes completion 88% (8.6% higher) 399 attempted (106 fewer)/48 giveaways (79 fewer)
Long Passes completion 62.2% (13% higher) att 90 attempted (219 fewer) 34 giveaways (122 fewer)

*long/medium passes given away in total 82 ( fewer than Bruno)

Attempted medium passes per 90
Bruno 19.42
Odegaard 14.56

Attempted long passes per 90
Bruno 11.88
Odegaard 3.26

Giveaways from M/L passes per 90
Bruno 10.88 (283 total)
Odegaard 3.86 (89 total)

So you begin to see the utter madness that Bruno brings and why those who watch the game to form an opinion rather than using specific stats know that Bruno has had a terrible season. High risk and very little reward.

 

[Pickle85]

Ah @58Posts spinning again….

So let’s debunk some of this with context.

1.He’s not or most potent attacker, bar non…He’s our penalty taker.

G+A Non pen (per 90)

Casemiro .47
Martial .43
McT .40
Garnacho .39
Rashford .37
Hojlund .33
Bruno .30

2.He’s made more tackles for the simple reason that he’s played most minutes. The majority of our other players have been out for extended periods this season. Antony makes more tackles per 90, Mainoo does an he’s extremely adept at being in the right place.

Tackles (per 90)

1.Case 2.45
2.Amrabat 2.41
3.Antony 2.35
4.AWB 25 2.30
5.Mainoo 2.16
6.Bruno 2.03

Let’s then consider ‘if others had managed similar outputs…

Bruno has a tragic pass completion rate of 71% 10% or more worse than

Mount
Maguire
Casemiro
McT
AWB
Amrabat
Evans
Mainoo
Varane
Lindelof

Also worse than

Antony
Eriksen
Rashford
Garnacho
Shaw
Martial
Dalot
Hojlund

Then look at his pass selection, total giveaways (which his so lucky to play with him teammates have to respond to) and wonder…if you were giving the ball away THAT many times doing THE SAME FECKING THING…would you not learn? The definition of insanity.


Medium Passes completion 75.4% 505 attempted/127 giveaways.
Long Passes completion 49% 309 attempted/156 giveaways.

*long/medium passes given away in total 283

Then the comparison seems to be with Odegaard for whatever reason and stats used to put a positive spin towards Bruno.

Here’s how Odegaard fares in pass completion:-

Overall 85.1% (14.1% higher)
Medium Passes completion 88% (8.6% higher) 399 attempted (106 fewer)/48 giveaways (79 fewer)
Long Passes completion 62.2% (13% higher) att 90 attempted (219 fewer) 34 giveaways (122 fewer)

*long/medium passes given away in total 82 ( fewer than Bruno)

Attempted medium passes per 90
Bruno 19.42
Odegaard 14.56

Attempted long passes per 90
Bruno 11.88
Odegaard 3.26

Giveaways from M/L passes per 90
Bruno 10.88 (283 total)
Odegaard 3.86 (89 total)

So you begin to see the utter madness that Bruno brings and why those who watch the game to form an opinion rather than using specific stats know that Bruno has had a terrible season. High risk and very little reward.

Using a bunch of other handpicked stats to tell this story hardly helps to prove this point.

Bruno has been poor in a very poor team but that's not because he's a poor player.

 

[Jeppers7]

Using a bunch of other handpicked stats to tell this story hardly helps to prove this point.

Bruno has been poor in a very poor team but that's not because he's a poor player.

Did you write that in reply to the post in quoted ? Hardly helps if you didn’t.

I’d say it’s more accurate to use per 90 stats, and stats that are the same for all players (non pens) than ones that favour a single player who has played more and takes pens.

Also the passing stats show the negative impact Bruno has overall, rather than focusing on XA randomness. If you think a player with less than 50% completion should continue making hundreds (literally) of the same passes….over and over then fine. I disagree.

Just because you like Bruno doesn’t make it right.

 

[lost7]

Saying Bruno is having an underwhelming season is a biased opinion now? My god, how low have the standards dropped in this fanbase?

Just because the majority of our players have been abysimal, doesn't suddenly mean that being slighly better than shyte is suddenly good. He's scored some important goals (Fulham) but overall he's been mediocre for the most part. The majority of the team has been that or worse and that's exactly why we're in the position that we find ourselves in right now.

I will also add this, Bruno looked world class in his first year with us. He was genuinely unplayable and raised our standards, but overall after 2020 his contributions are largely overrated

 

[jem]

That’s a great example of the crazy bias applied to assessing his performances. You think he’s been pretty underwhelming in a season where he so far has 6 goals and 5 assists, playing as an attacking midfielder for a team that’s one of the lowest scoring in the league. He’s our most potent attacker, bar none. And those figures actually stack up quite well vs players in the same position at teams that have been miles more productive than us. Where all of their attacking players have been scoring and creating goals, week in, week out. Compare and contrast with the shambles ahead of Bruno this season, as well as the paper thin midfield behind him.

And we all know he also puts a huge shift in, every single game he plays. He’s made 40 tackles this season. Two less than Declan Rice and more than any other United player. Dalot is second with 38. No other team mate has made more than 30.

If the players in other positions in his team had managed similar outputs in their roles then our season would be a hell of a lot better than it has been and Bruno’s performances might actually get the praise they deserve. They’ve certainly been a lot better than “pretty underwhelming”.

So basically you think Bruno has been good this year? I agree he's had some moments and his stats hold up well, but there have been more a few below-average performances.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

So basically you think Bruno has been good this year? I agree he's had some moments and his stats hold up well, but there have been more a few below-average performances.

I think his performances have been overall decent this season. In the context of a badly misfiring team. And the misfiring is for reasons that have nothing to do with Bruno. Forwards who can't finish. Midfielders who can't get a grip on the game. A constantly makeshift defence. An overall dysfunctional nightmare to play in. He has had a few poor games but at this point in the season every player in the league has had a few poor games. Because of all the toxicity around him/the team, there have been plenty of good performances getting called out as shite by his critics (sometimes patiently corrected by @justsomebloke) which creates a false impression of him playing much worse overall than he actually has. This has happened after every single defeat, bar none. And there's a been a lot of them this season!

The one criticism I do think is fair for this season is his tendency to lose his head when things are going against us. There have been some exceptions (comebacks against Forest, Sheffield and Villa) but there's been a definite trend of him playing worse towards the end of games when we're desperate to get a result. I don't think being captain suits him, as I don't think he's calm enough for the role and gets too emotional when we need a calm head in charge. A flaw in his mentality that the responsibility of being captain seems to have exacerbated. But, as I said higher up, there are no other more obvious candiates. Which sums up the train wreck of a team he's playing for.

 

[Giggsy13]

Herrera like player for me. I’ve got a lot of time for him whilst he’s here, but I’ll probably almost entirely forget about him as soon as he’s gone.

Bruno is miles better than Herrera, what the feck are you on!

 

[devilish]

The term legend means a different thing to alot of people. I remember paddy crerand describing a clearly embarrassed Quinton fortune as a legend

 

[El Jefe]

Ah @58Posts spinning again….

So let’s debunk some of this with context.

1.He’s not or most potent attacker, bar non…He’s our penalty taker.

G+A Non pen (per 90)

Casemiro .47
Martial .43
McT .40
Garnacho .39
Rashford .37
Hojlund .33
Bruno .30

2.He’s made more tackles for the simple reason that he’s played most minutes. The majority of our other players have been out for extended periods this season. Antony makes more tackles per 90, Mainoo does an he’s extremely adept at being in the right place.

Tackles (per 90)

1.Case 2.45
2.Amrabat 2.41
3.Antony 2.35
4.AWB 25 2.30
5.Mainoo 2.16
6.Bruno 2.03

Let’s then consider ‘if others had managed similar outputs…

Bruno has a tragic pass completion rate of 71% 10% or more worse than

Mount
Maguire
Casemiro
McT
AWB
Amrabat
Evans
Mainoo
Varane
Lindelof

Also worse than

Antony
Eriksen
Rashford
Garnacho
Shaw
Martial
Dalot
Hojlund

Then look at his pass selection, total giveaways (which his so lucky to play with him teammates have to respond to) and wonder…if you were giving the ball away THAT many times doing THE SAME FECKING THING…would you not learn? The definition of insanity.


Medium Passes completion 75.4% 505 attempted/127 giveaways.
Long Passes completion 49% 309 attempted/156 giveaways.

*long/medium passes given away in total 283

Then the comparison seems to be with Odegaard for whatever reason and stats used to put a positive spin towards Bruno.

Here’s how Odegaard fares in pass completion:-

Overall 85.1% (14.1% higher)
Medium Passes completion 88% (8.6% higher) 399 attempted (106 fewer)/48 giveaways (79 fewer)
Long Passes completion 62.2% (13% higher) att 90 attempted (219 fewer) 34 giveaways (122 fewer)

*long/medium passes given away in total 82 ( fewer than Bruno)

Attempted medium passes per 90
Bruno 19.42
Odegaard 14.56

Attempted long passes per 90
Bruno 11.88
Odegaard 3.26

Giveaways from M/L passes per 90
Bruno 10.88 (283 total)
Odegaard 3.86 (89 total)

So you begin to see the utter madness that Bruno brings and why those who watch the game to form an opinion rather than using specific stats know that Bruno has had a terrible season. High risk and very little reward.

I wonder what @Pogue Mahone response to this will be considering his love for stats over the eye test.

 

[Pickle85]

Did you write that in reply to the post in quoted ? Hardly helps if you didn’t.

I’d say it’s more accurate to use per 90 stats, and stats that are the same for all players (non pens) than ones that favour a single player who has played more and takes pens.

Also the passing stats show the negative impact Bruno has overall, rather than focusing on XA randomness. If you think a player with less than 50% completion should continue making hundreds (literally) of the same passes….over and over then fine. I disagree.

Just because you like Bruno doesn’t make it right.

I'm saying that using stats to make the argument that stats are lying is a weird one. He's no doubt not been up to his usual standards but that's more down to the team being absolutely dysfunctional than to him being a poor player.

 

[justsomebloke]

Ah @58Posts spinning again….

So let’s debunk some of this with context.

1.He’s not or most potent attacker, bar non…He’s our penalty taker.

G+A Non pen (per 90)

Casemiro .47
Martial .43
McT .40
Garnacho .39
Rashford .37
Hojlund .33
Bruno .30

2.He’s made more tackles for the simple reason that he’s played most minutes. The majority of our other players have been out for extended periods this season. Antony makes more tackles per 90, Mainoo does an he’s extremely adept at being in the right place.

Tackles (per 90)

1.Case 2.45
2.Amrabat 2.41
3.Antony 2.35
4.AWB 25 2.30
5.Mainoo 2.16
6.Bruno 2.03

Let’s then consider ‘if others had managed similar outputs…

Bruno has a tragic pass completion rate of 71% 10% or more worse than

Mount
Maguire
Casemiro
McT
AWB
Amrabat
Evans
Mainoo
Varane
Lindelof

Also worse than

Antony
Eriksen
Rashford
Garnacho
Shaw
Martial
Dalot
Hojlund

Then look at his pass selection, total giveaways (which his so lucky to play with him teammates have to respond to) and wonder…if you were giving the ball away THAT many times doing THE SAME FECKING THING…would you not learn? The definition of insanity.


Medium Passes completion 75.4% 505 attempted/127 giveaways.
Long Passes completion 49% 309 attempted/156 giveaways.

*long/medium passes given away in total 283

Then the comparison seems to be with Odegaard for whatever reason and stats used to put a positive spin towards Bruno.

Here’s how Odegaard fares in pass completion:-

Overall 85.1% (14.1% higher)
Medium Passes completion 88% (8.6% higher) 399 attempted (106 fewer)/48 giveaways (79 fewer)
Long Passes completion 62.2% (13% higher) att 90 attempted (219 fewer) 34 giveaways (122 fewer)

*long/medium passes given away in total 82 ( fewer than Bruno)

Attempted medium passes per 90
Bruno 19.42
Odegaard 14.56

Attempted long passes per 90
Bruno 11.88
Odegaard 3.26

Giveaways from M/L passes per 90
Bruno 10.88 (283 total)
Odegaard 3.86 (89 total)

So you begin to see the utter madness that Bruno brings and why those who watch the game to form an opinion rather than using specific stats know that Bruno has had a terrible season. High risk and very little reward.

Context? He has never had a high pass completion %, including at his most dominant. Nor is his reputation built on a perception he's a dominant tackler, to put it mildly. Hasn't scored much this season, but then who has. Could have told you all of this without looking at the stats, and none of it tells anyone anything we haven't known for years. There's the scoring, but that's not really compelling on its own.

 

[Steve Bruce]

No one who has came to United post Ferguson can become legends unless big trophies start landing in our trophy cabinet.

We have been consistently poor since and when we've been better we've been miles off top spot points wise.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Context? He has never had a high pass completion %, including at his most dominant. Nor is his reputation built on a perception he's a dominant tackler, to put it mildly. Hasn't scored much this season, but then who has. Could have told you all of this without looking at the stats, and none of it tells anyone anything we haven't known for years. There's the scoring, but that's not really compelling on its own.

Let's also not forget that "per 90" stats can be incredibly misleading, if you include players who come on as substitutes (which Bruno never does). That's how Newcastle's Paul Dummett tops the charts for the most tackles made per 90 in the Premier League this season. Because he played 0.1 games, made 1 tackle, and is hence assumed to make an incredible 10 tackles per 90 minutes! The same nonsense explains why Martial seems like our most dangerous attacker, when we all know he's been next to useless for the vast majority of this season.

Bruno is not a dominant tackler but he covers a huge amount of ground (his remarkable distance covered stat being another bit of data which is ignored by the usual suspects) and harries and hassles opponents as well as everyone, even if he isn't smashing into them, Paulinha style. And, at the end of the day, only making two less tackles than Rice (who I'm fairly sure started every Arsenal game this season) is pretty damn impressive.

 

[Scandi Red]

Let's also not forget that "per 90" stats can be incredibly misleading

Yep. That is why it's a bad idea to compare players with wildly different patterns. That is also why I picked Ødegaard and the PL specifically. Just 200 minutes separate them and they play in the same league, so it's valid.

Bruno is not a dominant tackler

Compared to other attacking midfielders he most certainly is. And that is the only fair comparison in my opinion. His interception stats are also really good. And that is an arguably more important defensive stat.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Compared to other attacking midfielders he most certainly is. And that is the only fair comparison in my opinion. His interception stats are also really good. And that is an arguably more important defensive stat.

I meant "dominant" as in physically imposing. In the way that someone like Paulhinha makes so many crunching tackles every game. Anyway, just looking at tackles/interceptions will ignore the work he does in terms of closing opposition down and putting them under pressure. I never know where to find the "pressures" data that Ronaldo used to be so consistently piss poor at but I reckon Bruno looks great by that metric too.

 

[Scandi Red]

I never know where to find the "pressures" data that Ronaldo used to be so consistently piss poor at but I reckon Bruno looks great by that metric too.

I don't remember who posted it in the performances thread, but it can't be more than a month or two since a stat on pressing was posted and yes Bruno did excellently.

Unfortunately, two months in that thread is like a million pages of whining and requires a bottle of whisky to go through.

 

[Jordi Cruyff 99]

Correct. The ones with the long surnames. See also Rio.

Next weeks lesson. Why people often type “CM” instead of “central midfielder”…

Fernandes is a long surname?

Your comment makes no sense considering others with names with as many characters, or longer, are not referred to by their first name.

People on this forum write posts at length but choose out of first or second name as a method through which to save a millisecond? Haha.

You’re not making any sense at all.

 

[jadaba]

Even if he stayed 3-4 more years with us, as long as we only win say 1 cup tournament every couple of years or so then I don't imagine him being widely considered a legend. We can all argue about his stats and individual talent but too much of our fanbase simply doesn't adore him, and to some extent that adoration can be more important to a legend status than certain accomplishments. Many would say that Park Ji Sung is a United legend, even if he objectively scored, assisted and contributed less than Bruno, and I'd bet that perception is mainly influenced by the success our team enjoyed while he played for us and the fact that regardless of talent shortcomings everybody just absolutely loved him for the effort he gave. Bruno's attitude and the club's wider failures mean that regardless of his contributions to the team I fear his status will have a low ceiling here over time.

 

[TsuWave]

Bruno is miles better than Herrera, what the feck are you on!

The post reads to me as he sees Bruno the same way he saw Herrera, i.e “he has loads of time for the player whilst they’re here but will promptly forget about them once they’re gone”. Doesn’t read as though they’re saying they have the same level of ability or perform the same.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Even if he stayed 3-4 more years with us, as long as we only win say 1 cup tournament every couple of years or so then I don't imagine him being widely considered a legend. We can all argue about his stats and individual talent but too much of our fanbase simply doesn't adore him, and to some extent that adoration can be more important to a legend status than certain accomplishments. Many would say that Park Ji Sung is a United legend, even if he objectively scored, assisted and contributed less than Bruno, and I'd bet that perception is mainly influenced by the success our team enjoyed while he played for us and the fact that regardless of talent shortcomings everybody just absolutely loved him for the effort he gave. Bruno's attitude and the club's wider failures mean that regardless of his contributions to the team I fear his status will have a low ceiling here over time.

Agree 100%. And the simple fact is that not one player in an unsuccesful squad will be adored. Look at all their performance threads this season. There's not a hint of adoration there. Just varying degrees of dislike, running all the way up to actual loathing (invariably from the most prolific posters in each performance thread, go figure)

Just for shits and giggles I had a look at PL stats for Park vs Bruno.

Turns out their number of starts is actually fairly similar, so it's a reasonably fair comparison. Turns out the stats fully support what you're saying. In a different, more successful era Bruno would be just as popular as Park, maybe even more so.

Spoiler: Three Lung

Appearances154
Goals 19
Wins 95
Losses 26

• Attack
  Goals 19
  Goals per match 0.12
  Headed goals 5
  Goals with right foot 9
  Goals with left foot 4
  Penalties scored 0
  Freekicks scored 0
  Shots 129
  Shots on target 43
  Shooting accuracy % 33%
  Hit woodwork 4
  Big chances missed 4
• Team Play
  Assists 21
  Passes 3,238
  Passes per match 21.03
  Big Chances Created 4
  Crosses 191
  Cross accuracy % 23%
  Through balls 27
  Accurate long balls 55
• Discipline
  Yellow cards 6
  Red cards 0
  Fouls 64
  Offsides 10
• Defence
  Tackles 250
  Tackle success % 71%
  Blocked shots 38
  Interceptions 132
  Clearances 48
  Headed Clearance 4
  Recoveries 368
  Duels won 544
  Duels lost 480
  Successful 50/50s 67
  Aerial battles won 43
  Aerial battles lost 70
  Errors leading to goal 0

Spoiler: Bruno

Appearances143
Goals47
Wins76
Losses35

• Attack
  Goals 47
  Goals per match 0.33
  Headed goals 2
  Goals with right foot 42
  Goals with left foot 3
  Penalties scored 16
  Freekicks scored 1
  Shots 393
  Shots on target 150
  Shooting accuracy % 38%
  Hit woodwork 15
  Big chances missed 29
• Team Play
  Assists 36
  Passes 7,683
  Passes per match 53.73
  Big Chances Created 79
  Crosses 658
  Cross accuracy % 23%
  Through balls 95
  Accurate long balls 502
• Discipline
  Yellow cards 31
  Red cards 0
  Fouls 151
  Offsides 33
• Defence
  Tackles 241
  Tackle success % 56%
  Blocked shots 115
  Interceptions 93
  Clearances 137
  Headed Clearance 70
  Recoveries 743
  Duels won 586
  Duels lost 781
  Successful 50/50s 109
  Aerial battles won 70
  Aerial battles lost 139
  Errors leading to goal 1

 

[Jeppers7]

Let's also not forget that "per 90" stats can be incredibly misleading, if you include players who come on as substitutes (which Bruno never does). That's how Newcastle's Paul Dummett tops the charts for the most tackles made per 90 in the Premier League this season. Because he played 0.1 games, made 1 tackle, and is hence assumed to make an incredible 10 tackles per 90 minutes! The same nonsense explains why Martial seems like our most dangerous attacker, when we all know he's been next to useless for the vast majority of this season.

Bruno is not a dominant tackler but he covers a huge amount of ground (his remarkable distance covered stat being another bit of data which is ignored by the usual suspects) and harries and hassles opponents as well as everyone, even if he isn't smashing into them, Paulinha style. And, at the end of the day, only making two less tackles than Rice (who I'm fairly sure started every Arsenal game this season) is pretty damn impressive.

May I remind @58Posts that he brought in tackling when it seemed to suit his narrative. Unfortunately @58posts most of our squad have been injured (20+) so it suits your agenda now to discount 70% of our squad or at least attempt to?

Nobody other than you has chosen a player comparison with somebody who has made 1 appearance.

Of our top tacklers (not named Bruno if allowed)

Dalot 36 (45). 2234 mins played
AWB 25 (30). 1141 mins played
Antony 20 (33) 1226 mins played
Amrabat 19 (29). 1043 mins played
McT 16 (31) 1586 mins played
Case 16 (27) 949 mins played
Mainoo 12 (13) 580 mins played

Hope these numbers meet any moveable criteria that YOU decide to add in. Perhaps Mainoo shouldn’t be included but I think we will find him to be one midfielder who is consistent, so unless Bruno increases his pass completion % or learns at 29 from his mistakes….unfortunately the pattern is going the wrong way though, more long passes per 90 at a decreasing success rate, pretty much year on year, the. Mainoo will have to keep making many tackles per 90.

 

[Jeppers7]

Even if he stayed 3-4 more years with us, as long as we only win say 1 cup tournament every couple of years or so then I don't imagine him being widely considered a legend. We can all argue about his stats and individual talent but too much of our fanbase simply doesn't adore him, and to some extent that adoration can be more important to a legend status than certain accomplishments. Many would say that Park Ji Sung is a United legend, even if he objectively scored, assisted and contributed less than Bruno, and I'd bet that perception is mainly influenced by the success our team enjoyed while he played for us and the fact that regardless of talent shortcomings everybody just absolutely loved him for the effort he gave. Bruno's attitude and the club's wider failures mean that regardless of his contributions to the team I fear his status will have a low ceiling here over time.

I agree….Park is nowhere near a United legend. He’s a cult hero for some that’s about it. He played regularly better than Bruno though.

 

[Scandi Red]

Agree 100%.

Just for shits and giggles I had a look at PL stats for Park vs Bruno.

Turns out their number of starts is actually fairly similar, so it's a reasonably fair comparison. Turns out the stats fully support what you're saying. In a different, more successful era Bruno would be just as popular as Park, maybe even more so.

Spoiler: Three Lung

Appearances154
Goals 19
Wins 95
Losses 26

• Attack
  Goals 19
  Goals per match 0.12
  Headed goals 5
  Goals with right foot 9
  Goals with left foot 4
  Penalties scored 0
  Freekicks scored 0
  Shots 129
  Shots on target 43
  Shooting accuracy % 33%
  Hit woodwork 4
  Big chances missed 4
• Team Play
  Assists 21
  Passes 3,238
  Passes per match 21.03
  Big Chances Created 4
  Crosses 191
  Cross accuracy % 23%
  Through balls 27
  Accurate long balls 55
• Discipline
  Yellow cards 6
  Red cards 0
  Fouls 64
  Offsides 10
• Defence
  Tackles 250
  Tackle success % 71%
  Blocked shots 38
  Interceptions 132
  Clearances 48
  Headed Clearance 4
  Recoveries 368
  Duels won 544
  Duels lost 480
  Successful 50/50s 67
  Aerial battles won 43
  Aerial battles lost 70
  Errors leading to goal 0

Spoiler: Bruno

Appearances143
Goals47
Wins76
Losses35

• Attack
  Goals 47
  Goals per match 0.33
  Headed goals 2
  Goals with right foot 42
  Goals with left foot 3
  Penalties scored 16
  Freekicks scored 1
  Shots 393
  Shots on target 150
  Shooting accuracy % 38%
  Hit woodwork 15
  Big chances missed 29
• Team Play
  Assists 36
  Passes 7,683
  Passes per match 53.73
  Big Chances Created 79
  Crosses 658
  Cross accuracy % 23%
  Through balls 95
  Accurate long balls 502
• Discipline
  Yellow cards 31
  Red cards 0
  Fouls 151
  Offsides 33
• Defence
  Tackles 241
  Tackle success % 56%
  Blocked shots 115
  Interceptions 93
  Clearances 137
  Headed Clearance 70
  Recoveries 743
  Duels won 586
  Duels lost 781
  Successful 50/50s 109
  Aerial battles won 70
  Aerial battles lost 139
  Errors leading to goal 1

Defensively speaking Park must be one of the best wingers/attacking midfielders we've had! I really miss him...

Bruno with 31 yellow cards vs Park with just 6