When a team is succesful there's definitely an aura that makes all the players at that team seem better than they actually were. With an unsuccesful team doing the opposite, souring the perception of players that the fans would adore if we were regularly winning league titles. So we end up in a scenario where Rashford wouldn't be fit to lace Rooney's boots, despite (hypothetically) scoring 15-20 goals every season until his mid thirties. Despite the fact that Rooney only scored more than 20 goals ,in all competitions, three times in his 13 seasons with United (a feat that Rashford has already matched, after 8 seasons at the club) and was basically finished as a top class footballer by the time he turned 30.
Will Bruno achieve legend status at utd?
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When a team is succesful there's definitely an aura that makes all the players at that team seem better than they actually were. With an unsuccesful team doing the opposite, souring the perception of players that the fans would adore if we were regularly winning league titles. So we end up in a scenario where Rashford wouldn't be fit to lace Rooney's boots, despite (hypothetically) scoring 15-20 goals every season until his mid thirties. Despite the fact that Rooney only scored more than 20 goals ,in all competitions, three times in his 13 seasons with United (a feat that Rashford has already matched, after 8 seasons at the club) and was basically finished as a top class footballer by the time he turned 30.
In short, no.
No one is going to be a legend until we win trophies again. To become a "legend" (overused word) in a team that wins nothing you have to be truly world-class in a field of dross, consistently. And then stay for 15 years, e.g. Gerard.
Were we to somehow miraculously win a title/compete for all competitions throughout several years, then players like Fernandes would have all the negative aspects of his game ignored that would remain - e.g. his whiny nature etc - and I'm sure people would think back very fondly of his career at United. Incredibly hypothetical though.
On a side note, I don't think that he is the root cause of our poor performances this season (or last), although he has been frustrating of late. I also think his captaincy has more to do with his off-field influence, which is quite clear in how he talked about Greenwood pre-case and Garnacho recently, to name two examples. So a not at all unsurprising candidate for it, in my opinion.
No one is going to be a legend until we win trophies again. To become a "legend" (overused word) in a team that wins nothing you have to be truly world-class in a field of dross, consistently. And then stay for 15 years, e.g. Gerard.
Were we to somehow miraculously win a title/compete for all competitions throughout several years, then players like Fernandes would have all the negative aspects of his game ignored that would remain - e.g. his whiny nature etc - and I'm sure people would think back very fondly of his career at United. Incredibly hypothetical though.
On a side note, I don't think that he is the root cause of our poor performances this season (or last), although he has been frustrating of late. I also think his captaincy has more to do with his off-field influence, which is quite clear in how he talked about Greenwood pre-case and Garnacho recently, to name two examples. So a not at all unsurprising candidate for it, in my opinion.
Yes, I do expect people to stay on topic and not randomly start going off about the player being "slagged off and people pretending he's all that's wrong with United", when that isn't what's happening in the thread or post you're replying to. The thread is asking the question if Bruno is a legend with the OP stating that surely he has all credentials without making an argument/elaborating on said credentials. The other reply I quoted in my initial post says "I'd like to think he already is". My disagreeing with those notions is implied by my shock at people considering Bruno a United legend at this moment in time - I don't have to prove a negative in this instance when the people positing that he is a United legend haven't actually argued his case for it.
I didn’t consider anything the whole conversation. I read your reply to me - which wasn’t applicable and asked you to get back on topic as you veered off track and oddly started talking about Bruno being slagged off. You then jumped into more non-applicable assumptions and ad-hominem - instead of simply saying "My fault, maybe my reply wasn't warranted/applicable". For all the talk about time wasted, this could have all been avoided if you'd just stayed on topic and didn't randomly feel like Bruno was being persecuted simply because I disagreed with the notions that he's currently a United legend and that he has all credentials. Ignore list is a useful tool. Be easy.
Would he, really? If most of these goals came in the Europa/Conference League and the Carabao Cup and he remained a 10 goal player in the PL. Don't you think perception shouldn't matter at all and, as the other one keeps repeating, everyone is spoilt except for a select group of fans?
All valid points, in regards to what makes a legend.
However - in terms of "legendary status" in general - Rooney was an all-round greater influence on the team than Rashford has been at any point in his United career. Rooney is the third-highest assister in Prem history with 103, and Rashford is on 39 so far. I distinctly remember that we would never lose a game when Rooney played, with Sky showing the same stat for Rooney as they have recently done for Rodri at Man City. So it's fair to say that Rashford is nowhere near the level of Rooney, even though he's banged in a fair amount of goals himself.
I don’t think Gerrard would have the legend status he does at Liverpool without the trophies they won while he was there.
Sticking with a club for a long time, or being the best of a bad bunch will seal legend status at clubs with low expectations (Matt Le Tissier) but for clubs like Liverpool and Manchester United it’s not going to happen without winning major trophies.
Yes. He really would. And there wouldn’t be any debate about his status if the team regularly won major trophies over that period of time. To keep scoring 15-20 goals every season until his mid thirties would be an amazing career.
If the team doesn't win major trophies, then nope, his achievements and contributions will be belittled by fans unhappy about their teams lack of success. That’s just how it works.
Fair enough. I disagree, but i accept your opinion. Not about him getting the proper recognition, this goes without saying. But i wouldn't grant him the same status as Sir Bobby or Rooney.
Not everyone has to be a legend. It's OK for some players to just be/have been good players for the club. Especially at a historied club.
He won’t be granted same status if the team is not successful. That’s my point. At a club like United nobody will ever be given a similar status to the likes of Rooney or Charlton unless they’re part of a team that wins major trophies. And God help any footballer who is linked with the sort of sustained underachievement we’ve seen over the last 10 years. It isn’t a coincidence that not one United player who’s been here for any or all of this period is being talked about as a legend of the club.
The only people I’d accept calling Bruno a legend are those that started watching us from 2012 onwards. If you saw United of the 90s or 2000s then you know he’s nowhere near one.
In the last decade our best players have been DDG, Bruno and Rashford. If that’s all you know then I guess that’s the closest you’ll get to the feeling of witnessing a legend.
If you’ve watched us through the 90s and 2000s and think Bruno is a legend you must be a WUM.
In the last decade our best players have been DDG, Bruno and Rashford. If that’s all you know then I guess that’s the closest you’ll get to the feeling of witnessing a legend.
If you’ve watched us through the 90s and 2000s and think Bruno is a legend you must be a WUM.
Probably not if he doesn't win a league trophy, Legends are part of teams that win titles.
Or they simply disagree on the metrics? I have counted exactly 3 arguments against Bruno being a legend so far in this thread. Ranging from worst to best argument:
1. "Bruno is whiny and/or unlikeable"
Really? That's where you draw the line? By the way, not all of our legends were likeable. Especially in hindsight or after they retired. This is a terribly weak argument in my opinion. Not to mention, a player's likability is largely dictated by the team's success.
2. "Bruno is not good enough in the big games"
I have already mentioned Park in this thread, so you know that I love big game players. The problem with this argument is that it's infinitely more difficult to be MOTM when your team is constantly playing with its back against the ropes, which has largely been the reality for a very long time now. And this is especially true if you are a midfielder! A goalkeeper may make glorious saves when the goal gets peppered by the likes of Salah and De Bruyne. And physically strong center forward can turn the game around after a cross into the box. But a creator gets stifled under the same circumstances. All in all, this argument would make sense if we were a good team to begin with. But we're not.
3. "Bruno has not won the PL or the CL"
This argument makes sense at least and there is a part of me that agrees. It's the only argument that could stop me from calling Bruno a United legend. But like other posters have written: it's pretty wretched to make this the deciding metric. For me this sucks the soul out of the game and removes pretty much all individualism and magic.
If you’re at a top club then no it isn’t.
In football it is really easy to be in positions to reach legend status because there are a few trophies each year a team can win. Winning is what makes you a legend for the most part especially if you are the key reason for that win. Bruno has been in positions to earn legendary status but has come up short each time.
This is where he differs from Robson and Gerrard. They made sure their teams won by stepping up in key moments.
I think legend is a bit strong, but he is a stand out player for many reasons, good and some bad, but he will stay long in memory as a fan, I would put him (in my memory) in the same bracket as Kanchelskis, Sharpe, Webb, Blackmore, Parker, Yorke, McClair, Hughes, Sheringham, Ji-Sung and obviously a few more..... these are players I remember fondly and remember well, who were great players for us but ultimately not legends, other players like Cryuff, Fortune, Silvestre, Phelan, Martin, McGrath and on... I remember the names and faces but very little else.... then there are other player who fall into the real meh! category
A fun logic/reasoning check regarding Bruno, using four statements I've seen on this thread.
1) He's the reason we play well.
2) He's a consistent performer.
3) He plays pretty much all of our games.
4) We're crap in most of our games.
Are all the statements true? if not, which is the odd one(s) out?
He was 36 years old and only made 14 apps in the league when he won his first PL trophy.
But of course he would still have been a legend if he retired before this.
I can see where you're coming from but, as i mentioned in the initial post you quoted, it's not the vitriol from the fans that prevents them from attaining a status they would otherwise deserve. You can be a legend of the highest order, even without the trophies, it's silly to think otherwise. Roberto Baggio didn't win anything of note until the twilight of his career (when he was moved to the periphery of the first team plans), but there isn't a single soul that would suggest that he's not one of the best Italian footballers of all time. I remember how i used to tell my Liverpool friends that they would never win the league as long as building a team around Gerrard remains the purpose of their existence. Sacchi pretty much said the same when he called him a great footballer, but not a great player. Still, he had that "cult of personality" thing about him and when the going got tough, he would always stand and be counted. You can't take that away from him. Robson is a United legend. You could easily envision him tearing the world apart at Anfield, had United not broken the British transfer record to attain his services (what was it, 300K more to outbid the scousers?). You may see it otherwise, but i believe Bruno is two or three steps below such players. Both in terms of skill and personality. As for Rashford, he has been cuddled so much at this club, that everything he achieves on a personal level feels painfully artificial at this point.
assistant
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Point number 2 is absolutely the strongest argument against him being one and your points for this read like a flimsy excuse. It’s one thing to not produce world class performances in big games but to be as consistently bad as he’s been points to a problem with him.
For example we got played off the park in the 2011 CL final but Rooney held his own in that game. Not a single person can fault him, we were outmatched but he held his end of the bargain in that game. In Bruno’s case he’s usually one of our worst performers so he can’t use the excuse of the team dragging his performance down when he is one of the main reasons for the poor team performance
Legends are made in big moments or series of moments to put it simply. A player hitting peak form and winning us games in a title run in, a player scoring the winning goal in a final or semifinal, a dominating individual performance that sticks in memory in a high stakes game. These are boxes that at least one needs checking but Bruno has none in four years here despite being in positions to achieve this.
Bruno has no defining moment or series of moments as a United player. Rashford is closer to being a legend than he is as he clearly has moments we can remember.
Why have you conveniently chosen to ignore Robson’s other trophies?
Can I shoot the messenger? Because nobody thinks Stam is a United legend while Beckham isn't. That's literally impossible.(I consider ALL of the below to be United legends, but I've split them into two groups. The second group consists of players who I have experienced people disagreeing with me on multiple times. So don't shoot the messenger!)
More or less undisputed United legends
Edwards, Charlton, Law, Best, Robson, Schmeichel, Giggs, Scholes, G.Neville, Irwin, Keane, Cantona, Cole, Stam, Rio, Vidic, Rooney
Seems to be up for debate
Beckham, Solskjær*, Evra, Park, Carrick, De Gea, Ronaldo**
* his reputation (unfairly) took a blow after his managerial stint
** (rightfully) fell down after his second stint
The only thing these all have in common are Premier League/English First Division trophies. Some are there primarily because of their hard work, others for their x factor. Some were at the club for a long time, others for just 3 years.
There are multiple players on this list that Bruno is more talented than. There are multiple players on this list that Bruno will have stuck around for longer than this summer. And in terms of hard work and effort, Bruno does in no way look out of place. The only way to exclude Bruno (provided that you agree on the second group as well) is if you consider winning the PL a necessity in order to be considered a legend. Personally I disagree with this distinction so regardless of happens in the upcoming years Bruno has already done enough to warrant a spot in that second group.
I love Rooney, but he was never a creative player. And like I said: it's easier for goalkeepers and goal scorers to leave a battering with their heads held high, because you can still nick a goal or save shots under these circumstances. For the rest of the players on the pitch it's more or less impossible to have a good game during a battering.
I don't really count the smaller trophies. I also wouldn't count Bruno's EFL trophy as an argument for him being a legend.
Bruno a Legend…this has to be a wind up right.
Christ. Rooney not a creative player and not counting Robson’s non PL trophies.
You are doing a good job of sounding like you don’t know what you’re on about.
Considering 3 FA Cups and one UEFA Cup as small trophies is just ignorance, especially in the 80s and 90s.
Rooney was a great all-rounder and a great goal scorer. World class at his peak. But creative in the same vein as Silva, Özil, De Bruyne or Bruno? No, I don't see it.
We clearly have different metrics and that's OK. I don't value minor trophies as much as you, that's all.
I really don't understand the animosity towards Bruno. Nobody in the team, and only two in the league, works harder than him. He has genuine passion for football and the club. He creates a ton of chances, and he contributes both ends of the pitch. For some, he may not have the most likeable personality, but I'm not sure I agree to join that bandwagon. He has never spoken ill of the club; quite the contrary, he appears genuine in his love for the club, and he actually cares. Sure, he is frustrated and he has a body language far removed from the icy north.
(I consider ALL of the below to be United legends, but I've split them into two groups. The second group consists of players who I have experienced people disagreeing with me on multiple times. So don't shoot the messenger!
More or less undisputed United legends
Edwards, Charlton, Law, Best, Robson, Schmeichel, Giggs, Scholes, G.Neville, Irwin, Keane, Cantona, Cole, Stam, Rio, Vidic, Rooney
Seems to be up for debate
Beckham, Solskjær*, Evra, Park, Carrick, De Gea, Ronaldo**
* his reputation (unfairly) took a blow after his managerial stint
** (rightfully) fell down after his second stint
The only thing these all have in common are Premier League/English First Division trophies. Some are there primarily because of their hard work, others for their x factor. Some were at the club for a long time, others for just 3 years.
There are multiple players on this list that Bruno is more talented than. There are multiple players on this list that Bruno will have stuck around for longer than this summer. And in terms of hard work and effort, Bruno does in no way look out of place. The only way to exclude Bruno (provided that you agree on the second group as well) is if you consider winning the PL a necessity in order to be considered a legend. Personally I disagree with this distinction so regardless of happens in the upcoming years Bruno has already done enough to warrant a spot in that second group.
Undisputed legends Beckham, for multiple reasons, and Evra who definitely deserves to be in there. A vital part of one of our best teams of all time. Absolutely brilliant player at his best, but legends are also made outside the pitch, and he's a Red Devil through and through - and he's fun!
Up for debate, VDS should be in that list.I think this is where Bruno is currently at. He probably needs to lead us to glory either in Europe or in the league to be considered a legend. The list probably deserves to be longer.
One may compare him to Gerrard in not winning the league, but Gerrard has CL to boost his reputation. As for the PL, again, Gerrard is one of the biggest Pool legends, and he never won it...
I think Bruno is worthy of a discussion, but he arguably needs to lead his team to a major trophy one way or another and be instrumental in obtaining that.
Yeah, it's this.
It's not so much that he's a bad player (although he's definitely not elite). It's more the whole package - the attitude, the diving, the general desire to blame everyone but himself.
Barney Roney described his running as 'performative' after the Galatasaray game, and I thought it was spot on. It's like he's trying to show the crowd how hard he's trying, rather than playing to instruction.
He wouldn't get into a great team. That's why none of today's top teams have come for him.
True and maybe Liverpool don't win the trophies without him, which seals the deal (CL and FA Cup vs West Ham for example). However, Liverpool were on an unbelievably barren run pre-Klopp for a club of their size (same with us post-Fergie). Taking trophies out of it, we simply haven't had a player of Gerard's quality in our team post-2013. I'd argue Gerard would still be considered a legend by many within Liverpool's fanbase, even if they hadn't won any trophies.
For clarification - this isn’t a gotcha attempt - but what the legendary feats and performances that come to mind when you think of Bruno Fernandes - Manchester United player?
Ok I will bite
number 1 is not true IMO, at least it is only occasionally true, I can easily see a better Utd without Bruno in the 1st 11, I can even envisage Mount being better than him in that false 10 role, Bruno as many have said is chaotic, there is some advantage in order.That said the OP question was is he a Utd legend, which I TBH is not ruled in or out by any or all of your statements, I guess it comes down to your definition of Legend, I think that definition should be extremely personal, for me it purely comes down to how you feel or felt about a player, football is yes full of stats, but you know from watching the game so much more than the stats can tell you, for instance Wayne Rooney, obviously a Legend based on stats, trophies and performances, on that basis you could argue that he is one of our most Legendary players, but for me he would be down the pecking order, below players like Robbo, Rio, Schmeichel, Cantona, Beckham, it is just personal, emotional instinct.
Question for you:
Marcus Rashford 126 goals in 384 games,
OGS 126 goals in 366 games....
Who has the more legendary status at Utd?
I know which player gets into my mental highlight reel more than the other (BTW not meant as a dig at Rashford, I still love him).
You can add Andy Cole 121 in 275, still above Rashy! but then I was younger and not such a miserable cynic, maybe that is another factor
The problem (and keep in mind that I have a terrible memory) is that I honestly can't remember any legendary feats and single performances from a lot of players who I still consider legends. The other problem is that I don't think it's fair to compare a player in a struggling team and a player in a top team managed by the greatest manager in history.
Now if you want me to provide an explanation as to why I think Bruno probably should be remembered as a legend then I'm happy to do it later
It's a good job they get nothing from watching good football because aside from a month under Van Gaal, some rousing patches under Ole and maybe Barcelona under Ten Hag, there's been very little good football over the last 10 years.
Bruno not a legend for me. He's a poor choice of captain in terms of his attitude and his output/ performances have massively declined in the 4 years he's been here.
Can the man who captained a team to the worst mid season at the club since before people knew who Hitler was be considered a legend?
What defines a United Legend?
He is clearly not up there with the likes of Giggs, Cantona, Keane, Charlton, Best etc.
And i wouldn't say he is up there with the the second tier of legends - e.g. Andy Cole, Ole, Neville, Nobby Stiles etc who won multiple major trophies with the club and were key contributes. Even though from a tallent perspective, he may be equal or better than some players at this level.
From a status perspective, i would say he is currently on par with players like Lou Macari, Steve Coppel, Norman Whiteside, Paul McGrath. Good players, from an era of where the team was pretty poor.
He is clearly not up there with the likes of Giggs, Cantona, Keane, Charlton, Best etc.
And i wouldn't say he is up there with the the second tier of legends - e.g. Andy Cole, Ole, Neville, Nobby Stiles etc who won multiple major trophies with the club and were key contributes. Even though from a tallent perspective, he may be equal or better than some players at this level.
From a status perspective, i would say he is currently on par with players like Lou Macari, Steve Coppel, Norman Whiteside, Paul McGrath. Good players, from an era of where the team was pretty poor.
For me the very starting point of legendary status is consistently very good/great performances over a long period of time. What pushes the player into undisputed are being the difference when it matters. Multiple times or in one iconic moment.
Bruno doesn’t even get close to the starting point of a discussion for me. He doesn’t even play well most games, over the time he’s been here and I can’t think of a single big moment.
Bruno doesn’t even get close to the starting point of a discussion for me. He doesn’t even play well most games, over the time he’s been here and I can’t think of a single big moment.
More often than not - those players will likely have places in dominant, title winning United teams - even if you can’t readily remember great individual showings - and the ones you’d argue don’t have places in those teams, likely have defining moments for the club in their catalogue.
Meanwhile Bruno is a good/decent, divisive player, with good productivity, albeit inconsistency in performances - that’s been at United for like 3.5 seasons/4 years - those being some of our worst in modern times. It’s OK to just be a good player/servant to the club.
I also don’t get how/why people keep framing/isolating Bruno from the “struggling team”. Bruno’s floor is really low and many would argue it’s a contributing factor why we’re so inconsistent. You can‘t be having three, four bad games back to back then show-up with two assists and 4 key passes against Luton and be “legendary” or talked as if you’re not part of/reason for the “struggling team”.
Just fyi - this discussion will go on forever like that, because while for you, Bruno isn't playing very great (as visible in team performance and team output/success) while some other posters will argue that he is playing great because look at his individual numbers.
This is the essence for me as well. While he certainly isn't the only factor for our woes, it is odd to separate him from the rest of the team in the way, some posters seemingly do. For all his numbers, we as a team lack behind teams without a player with such numbers as Bruno. I can see why people come to the conclusion that you then have to look at his team mates because they are so much worse than in other teams but I don't think that is very convincing. I still think, we are playing in a way that is suiting him pretty well, not as good as under Ole but still close enough.
You go on forever…kind of sat in the middle like some judge of either side, in your own mind.
‘For me’ I’ve stated twice in my post. If you feel differently that’s fine….give your opinion? Nobody is asking you to sit in judgement of everyone else’s posts. Give an opinion, it’s a forum. I’m not claiming my posts will have legendary status.